Let's discuss Rainbow Cruise(We're done with Brinstar, I guess)!

[Tesh]

I haven't seen M2K drop a single game on that stage in the last few years.

We base it off of top level play.

It does matter what character he used. If you have to main a character that does well on RC to win on RC, then it it's no different from having to main a character with projectiles on a walk off stage.

__X__ beat m2k on rc and so did some jigglypuff

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317591

there wouldn't be anything wrong with these two stages if we used this rule set

 

[John12346]

...That was completely out of nowhere.

We're trying to prove that RC is a competitively sound stage.

And ignore MK in your reasoning, we already know he shouldn't be legal at the same time as Brinstar and RC at this point.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Brinstar is legit, since the gimmicks aren't that hard to get around if you just play smart and try to maintain stage control.

Rainbow Cruise on the other hand... that's a different animal altogether. At least with brinstar you can just control your space and punish air campers trying to refresh their jumps... but on RC you can't do that. If the other guy is noticeably more mobile than you, you're ****ed. That's why MK dominates there, he's ridiculously quick and can cross from one end of the screen to the other without touching ground.

But lets set MK aside and consider a different end of the spectrum. Ganondorf, for example. Even if you were the greatest Ganon player ever, what chance do you stand on RC? You can barely move anywhere on that stage, other than the ship, without being in constant danger of getting gimpped or otherwise punished just for moving, and the stage literally forces you to do it! Anyone with low aerial mobility or a weak air game just has to play keep away until they get to the more ground friendly portions of the stage, desperately trying to avoid getting punished during almost half of the stage (realistically, more like 2/5). It's either that, or both you and your opponent are just trying to keep up with the stage as it rises, which discourages you from fighting each other. Why would you want a stage that discourages characters from fighting... in a FIGHTING game?!

The fact that the stage moves and changes isn't the problem. It's that it NEVER STOPS moving and changing. At least with Delphino, PS/2, or Frigate it changes, you fight for awhile, then changes again... The safest parts of RC are the top-left quadrant, and the ship. And honestly, does anyone really feel "safe" or "at home" on the ship? It just feels awkward to me. Wasn't it noticeably bigger in Melee? In Brawl I feel like the ship is like you're fighting on half of a real stage. Then the ship sinks, and they throw more areas at you that all feel like they're half-finished.

I have to give RC a big thumbs down. It's unfortunate, because I can appreciate the diversity it brings to the stagelist... It's just not a legit stage. Too bad they didn't port PokeFloats from Melee. That stage was actually pretty legit, and extremely underrated.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

1. Who cares about what Ganondorf can do? We aren't planning on banning Ice Climbers because Ganon can't handle them, are we?

2. Characters are larger in Brawl, so every Melee stage appears smaller.

3. How can you say Poke Floats is legit but give RC the thumbs down? o_O

 

[#HBC | Joker]

PokeFloats doesn't move very fast, or have slow steady movement like RC. Stuff pops up, you have some time to fight on it, then it transitions. Some of the configurations can be a little polarizing, but you don't have to wait very long for it to change again.

EDIT: Also Ganon was just an example. Other characters don't have such an easy go of it either. Ike comes to mind due to his speed, though his air game is better than most. Olimar certainly doesn't have the easiest time getting around, even though the stage can cater to his "keep away" style of play.

My point is that RC is largely seen as viable because of MK. Who else wants to fight there? Pit? ROB? Kirby? Chars with obscene aerial mobility are clearly favored there because there's not much ground, and they don't need it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

One could say that the stage list favours grounded characters overall (see FD commonly being a starter) and that aerial characters get the short end of the stick by only having 2 mostly aerial stages legal.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

FD still has room to fly around though. You can always camp in the air, but there's gotta be ground for everyone else.

 

[-LzR-]

FD still has room to fly around though. You can always camp in the air, but there's gotta be ground for everyone else.

Free internets for you. Can we ban RC now?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

FD still has room to fly around though. You can always camp in the air, but there's gotta be ground for everyone else.

There is ground on RC.

I've played on this stage a lot in Melee when I used to main Ice Climbers (easily the most ground-based character) and I managed to adapt to it, it isn't really that hard.

The boat is just a normal fight.
The rising portion is brief and any combat on there can be completely avoid by staying really low or really high if you have a mobility disadvantage.
The pendulum favours high mobility characters.
The horizontal portion is similar to walk-off transformations on Delfino.

The only part that really favours aerial-based characters (excluding MK, he is dumb on this stage) is the pendulum.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Been awhile since I played Melee but isn't the cast at large pretty much stronger on the ground? I mean, you've got Jiggs in the air, but who else? Maybe Marth and Sheik spacing their stuff in the air, but even they are way meaner when they're tilting on the ground. RC works in Melee cuz it's a different game.

It really doesn't matter if the stage gets banned or not, I can deal with a stage I don't like. I'm just trying to break into the competitive Brawl scene, and thought I'd share my thoughts.
All I ever read on here is, "MK should be banned cuz he screws up the metagame!" and "RC and Brinstar should be banned cuz MK ***** there, lulz!" and "our metagame is worse than japan's is for X reason so we should try to be like them!"

it really makes me want to strangle people... so my hope is that people might read what I have to say and go "OMG finally someone who doesn't sound just like everyone else!" Of course maybe I do just sound like everyone else, cuz I still think RC is dumb. I just don't think MK is the only one with the power to make it seem frustrating.

 

[Akaku94]

First of all, I agree with you that banning a stage because of a character is never a good idea. RC itself has nothing wrong with it. All of the arguments come down to characters (aerial characters are too good, it's too good against grounded chars, etc.), and all that shows is that RC is a good counterpick! As a Kirby main, I love to take people there (with a few exceptions). Should I be punished with losing one of my favorite CPs just because it's a good CP for MK or Wario or G&W? If the ICs were the best in the game, would we be banning FD, BF, and SV because those are their best stages? Of course not! So why are we wanting to ban legitimate stages just because of certain characters that happen to do well on more stages than others?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Banning a stage because of a character can definitely be a good idea if the character is amazing on several stages, but is only average/above average on every other.

We are aiming for balance here, because balance = more competitive depth in this situation. When you have a character like... Melee Fox, who is amazing on several stages but only 'pretty good' on every other stage, you have to make a decision.

Ban Fox, sacrificing the depth he adds to the game.
Ban the stages he is amazing on, sacrificing the depth they add to the game outside of Fox's match-ups.
Add more stage bans, giving Fox the opportunity to take people basically wherever he wants.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

How can you make it balanced if you know for a fact that some characters are better there than others? At least the advantages FD grants to some characters can be brought down by knowing your options and mixing them up. Falco laser camping you? well you can powershield, jump, spotdodge, roll, airdodge, char specifics like reflecting/absorbing/bucketing. There's options. Someone's walling you off on RC? You're limited to jumping away, airdodging, or barreling straight in to an area that the enemy controls, and they know you have jump over to them just to survive. Lame. The CP system is stupid anyway.

 

[GimR]

I witnessed 2fast beat Gimr on brinstar.

Here's the match.

I played horribly at that tournament. I beat 2fast quite easily the next time we played. This set should not at all be used to prove a match up. I'm inconsistent. That's my weakness

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How can you make it balanced if you know for a fact that some characters are better there than others? At least the advantages FD grants to some characters can be brought down by knowing your options and mixing them up. Falco laser camping you? well you can powershield, jump, spotdodge, roll, airdodge, char specifics like reflecting/absorbing/bucketing. There's options. Someone's walling you off on RC? You're limited to jumping away, airdodging, or barreling straight in to an area that the enemy controls, and they know you have jump over to them just to survive. Lame. The CP system is stupid anyway.

You can't over-simplify options and call it a day.

To understand why it is perfectly possible to play on RC with a ground-based character, you just need to get better. Thats all there is to it xD

 

[-LzR-]

Even though I main G&W, I have never owned people simply because of RC, the matches have been as close as they were on say, Smashville, except slightly towards my favor. With MK out of the picture, MUs don't get screwed up terribly by the stages unless the character in question was already terrible.

 

[Krystedez]

I just watched Krys time out someone on Brinstar the other weekend. All he kept doing was gliding under the stage, breaking the middle platform, and planking.

I don't believe I actually ended up timing that person out just to note. You can still attack Pit on top of his head with practically anyone not named Olimar or Falco.

 

[DMG]

Yeah its much harder to deal with G&W on the stage than Pit since G&W can maneuver around people better and has better mixups to get onstage by far. That and G&W more aerially dominating overall with his attacks.

 

[Tesh]

Pit can't even safely attack while sharking. You can basically Dair or w/e into the middle of his Uair and trade.

I'd like to see how ANY of this works well with an LGL.

 

[Kuro~]

Lol there's only certain characters that can beat his upair with dair everytime.

 

[Tesh]

Shouldn't be that hard. I can do it with down angles ftilts/smashes. He is way too slow to be threatening from down there anyway.

 

[Krystedez]

IF you play with uair safely (dont go anywhere above the ledge) you wont be prone to punishments as much.

 

[Tesh]

You also won't be prone to hitting anything. The disjoint and ridiculous startup and animation lag (14 frames only) on MK's uair + the ability to punish people that jump or roll away (shuttle loop, tornado) is what made MK's sharking so strong. Pit and GnW don't have that (well pit can shoot you I guess and GnW can hit you with his up b). Planking without even putting a minor threat of a hitbox where it might hit someone is just wasting time and ledge grabs as Pit and GnW. With our current LGL its annoying but as long as you safely pressure them into regrabbing the ledge, its hardly broken.

No one besides MK has the ability to really break sharking with an LGL.

 

[Kuro~]

Lol, you really don't know upair's hitbox if u think a majority of characters can beat it easily.

Lol, i'm not even arguing for broken sharking. I was just correcting an incorrect statement.

Pit's sharking is anything but broken.

His stalling is pretty dumb though...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

*camping, not stalling

 

[Sushi3]

From OP: (We're done with Brinstar, I guess)

What does "done" mean?

 

[Akaku94]

It means every argument for both sides has been used multiple times, both sides are tired of arguing and nobody changed their stance as a result.

There's smashboards for you.

 

[-LzR-]

It means every argument for both sides has been used multiple times, both sides are tired of arguing and nobody changed their stance as a result.

There's internet for you.

This would be a little bit more accurate.

 

[Akaku94]

lol I suppose...

 

[popsofctown]

I feel like RC is the good version of Brinstar. Most people actually know the stage, while no one will put the time in to memorize acid on Brinstar, and they'll more quickly ban Brinstar because it's even more powerful for floaties.

I'd like it if every game that would be played on Brinstar was played on RC.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Do you know what I find funny on 70% of the comments here?
That they don't label stages not for themselves, but they discredict them based on how different they are from a "common" or "static" point of view.

As in, "Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar are too different from the static gameplay I use to have, so they shouldn't be allowed" or probably "are different, but playable, allow them".
Even worse, "I've seen X doing things I do not like there, so it shouldn't be allowed".

Spoiler

inb4 get your ban criteria right

 

[popsofctown]

Do you know what I find funny on 70% of the comments here?
That they don't label stages not for themselves, but they discredict them based on how different they are from a "common" or "static" point of view.

As in, "Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar are too different from the static gameplay I use to have, so they shouldn't be allowed" or probably "are different, but playable, allow them".
Even worse, "I've seen X doing things I do not like there, so it shouldn't be allowed".

Spoiler

inb4 get your ban criteria right

I don't think that's what I was saying at all.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It is not, but it somehow relates. Sorry if posting that right before your post made you believe otherwise.


Anyhow, random data time: did you know you can platform cancel EVERYWHERE on Rainbow Cruise?

 

[infiniteV115]

I did, though I think there was one (somewhere near the see-saw thingy) that I thought couldn't be platform cancelled.

But yeah when I was playing against CPUs, trying to learn the stage, I platform cancelled the **** out of everything. People aren't even using RC right and they want it banned

 

[WindMajor]

The same with every stage really.

 

[popsofctown]

Oh my god I get what your avatar is now.

And your comment is -very- relevant, because platform cancelling allows characters to essentially use ground move in the air. And most of the haters have a poor aerial kit.

I can't time platform cancel because I'm a scrub but I like the stage legal anyway.

 

[WindMajor]

I hate Rainbow Cruise with my life, but I think it should be legal.

 

[Tesh]

I feel the same about FD

 

[-LzR-]

I am a hipster and I hate Smashville.