Let's talk about Fox at Apex (and in tournament settings)

[Han Solo]

In top 8, Fox went 1 for 5 (boom went 1-2 with Fox; Jaime went 0-2). As far as I'm aware, in the top 32 there were three people that went Fox none which played Fox a majority of their matches. After top 32, you'll find the rest of the people that play Fox.

Han Solo - 33rd
ShadeMoneh - 33rd
Hipstur - 65th
Knitephox - 65th
Aisengobay - 65th
chain-ace - 65th

Random facts:

As I expected, there were tons of Falcons, Pikas, and Kirbys at Apex.

In the top 12, there were 4 Yoshi mains.

Fox had two notable wins at Apex. Boom beat Moyashi in one game (then lost the next two). Sheer beat Ruoka in a 4-1 stock comeback (then got 4-stocked the next game).

The highest placing Fox main got 33rd. The highest placing Yoshi main got 5th. Falcon 3rd. Pika 3rd (if you count Boom, 9th otherwise).

There were 5 people who used Falcon in top 8.

Something can definitely be said about all this. Why aren't more people playing Fox if he's such a good character? And when people play Fox, why are they losing (even at the top level)?

Maybe...just maybe...Fox isn't as good as everyone says he is...

 

[Cobrevolution]

how many links were there

 

[Han Solo]

This isn't a discussion about Link. Sangoku, pls infract cobr.

 

[SheerMadness]

Fox is certainly at a disadvantage in a format without hyrule.

I think everyone can agree it would be extremely hard to win a legit tourney with Fox in that format.

Falcon/Pika/Kirby/Yoshi are all better chars in a format featuring an Apex style stage list.

Solo you did good man. You probably should won both sets you lost (YBOMBB and Revan correct?) from what I remember.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

how many links were there

I played Link in YOLO.

 

[Han Solo]

Fox is certainly at a disadvantage in a format without hyrule.

I think everyone can agree it would be extremely hard to win a legit tourney with Fox in that format.

Falcon/Pika/Kirby/Yoshi are all better chars in a format featuring an Apex style stage list.

Solo you did good man. You probably should won both sets you lost (YBOMBB and Revan correct?) from what I remember.

Thanks, Sheer, but I didn't do that well IMO. Could I have won? Sure. Did I? No? Why did I lose? I got gimped. Fox is a glass cannon more prone to breaking than doing damage.

Pika, Kirby, and Yoshi hardly ever get gimped. Falcon gets gimped a lot, but he makes up for it by being the fastest in the game with amazing easy-to-do combos on everyone. Fox is amazing against bad characters that no one plays like Link, Samus, Luigi, Ness, DK, and Puff, but when he faces characters that can actually recover, have amazing combos, or amazing edgeguarding? Things don't look good for him.

 

[mixa]

yeah but I mean, who played great?

to put into perspective, the match Boom won, he dair'd below the stage once, and double-jumped attacked while recovering once. that's -2 right there. I think it's common sense that you shouldn't do those things ever. he also missed a very simple edgeguard. he still won.

I just realized that the j fox who won the 155-people online tourney didn't face any kirbys. he did beat a orion (pika) 2-0 at the finals though. I think japanese foxes are very inspiring because of their parsimony. one time I posted a video featuring that and people just dismissed it as being "gay". so that's good.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Ban kirby, bring back hyrule, pretty simple.

No seriously though, from what I watched there's not many people adapting to kirby or that know how to outcamp him. Ppl need to adapt again and realize ppl are gonna be playing gayer than ever now.

 

[Han Solo]

yeah but I mean, who played great?

to put into perspective, the match Boom won, he dair'd below the stage once, and double-jumped attacked while recovering once. that's -2 right there. I think it's common sense that you shouldn't do those things ever. he also missed a very simple edgeguard. he still won.

I just realized that the j fox who won the 155-people online tourney didn't face any kirbys. he did beat a orion (pika) 2-0 at the finals though. I think japanese foxes are very inspiring because of their parsimony. one time I posted a video featuring that and people just dismissed it as being "gay". so that's good.

Boom played amazing game 2, and he just barely won. He makes a few mistakes off stage in the other matches, and it costs him a stock. Pikachu and Kirby can't make mistakes off stage like Fox can.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Welp, here's how I see it as someone whose been playing fox for a long while. He's ****ed, to be cut and dry about it. Without a strong center stage to protect like hyrule we're going to see fox becoming increasingly useless as people get better at cutting off options. Because of the strong stun in this game, we're seeing a game where weak recoveries mean death just by being anywhere near a character because so many options lead into grabs. As someone whose quit and comeback to 64 more times than jordan in basketball, i can see how the community has changed.

High tier fox thrived in a community that loved huge combos, didnt DI well, was bad at getting grabs and bad at being patient, I know because I abused the hell out of that when I didnt suck. This new community is quick kills, gimp dependent, DI's very well, and is getting a lot better at their punish game. The way its going now, fox has become what you said above solo, a glass cannon that has trouble dealing damage. You're going to have to start avoiding any and all grabs, never shield and anticipate DI or this character is ****ed.

 

[mixa]

Boom played amazing game 2, and he just barely won. He makes a few mistakes off stage in the other matches, and it costs him a stock. Pikachu and Kirby can't make mistakes off stage like Fox can.

we're just gonna have to disagree then. Boom didn't play amazing game 2 to me (reasons in the previous post).

 

[EverythingSmash]

Sorry this is kind of off topic, but who decided on the whole Hyrule ban? & what was their justification behind it?

 

[rawrimamonster]

Lol honestly? I was the first to push for a ban like 4-5 years ago, but I changed my mind because I realized what would happen to some characters without hyrule and changed my opinion to counterpick only. What I realized is what's happening to Fox/Link now. The reason the ban got pushed through is because of M2K's kirby camping the left side of hyrule, which people deemed gamebreaking...which it honestly is. Kirby is near impossible to root out of there, he's like a mother****ing clog in a drain.

The initial reasons for a hyrule ban though were the imbalances caused by camping with projectiles, and the tornado getting the other player unearned kills. It led to other justifications and when m2k happened the ban happened. Some people will deny it but yeah, he was the straw that broke the camels back. I still stand by my opinion on counterpick.

Also! What I believe should be put up for a vote is, a stage reset option like Ness on saffron. Only with Kirby on hyrule....but despite that being able to work I dont think people would allow it.

 

[clubbadubba]

the tier list is a mathematical representation of the matchup chart. If a character like fox bullies over half the cast really hard, its gonna get reflected in the tier list. Doesn't change the fact that he is horrible vs pika on DL, not great vs kirby (but honestly not that bad, some players like fox as a counterpick to kirby), bout even vs falcon, imo bad vs yoshi, and bout even vs mario. Where he is on the tier list is pretty irrelevant, its all about the matchups, and it so happens that his 3 worst matchups are all top 6 characters.

Ways to place top 3 in a stacked 64 tournament:

1) Be Isai

2) Main a single character named either pikachu or kirby

3) Have a good high tier character that is not pikachu or kirby, but have a secondary that you can pool out against your primaries bad matchups.

Seriously anyone who only plays one character is going to get counterpicked, players are getting better and everyone is picking up more characters. Hell Kero would've beaten Jaime if he wasn't able to switch from Falcon to Samus to beat kirby. Main fox, but if you know you are going into a matchup you don't like, use a secondary. Solo (no pun intended) mains are a way of the past.

 

[mixa]

I never got that "(no pun intended)". if it's not intended, why leave it there? what if I make racist remarks and say (no racism intended)? way I see it, it's all really a pre-john, like when you say you're playing drunk: you put a pun there, if it's good, good. if it's bad, hey, it wasn't intended.

 

[The Star King]

Fox sucks at 10 AM

[4:25:55 AM] Dan Hoyt: if I had warmup
[4:25:59 AM] Dan Hoyt: GOD
[4:26:24 AM] Dan Hoyt: how many times did I end up killing myself
[4:26:28 AM] Dan Hoyt: like seriously

 

[Han Solo]

Clubba, I can always pull out a better character to use, but that's the point though. Fox isn't one of those better characters. Pika and Kirby are way better. Falcon is much better. There were 4 Yoshis in top 12 suggesting Yoshi might be better. There were three people who used Fox, but used a different character for a majority of the tournament. When those three people did use Fox, more often than not, it didn't work out for them.

Yet there's this notion that Fox is still good. Fox isn't as good as everyone seems to think he is.

 

[Shears]

Is this a sympathy thread? I can't see what the point is. Assume fox is bad, then stop playing fox and learn how to play someone else or stubbornly play fox and lose and stop asking for sympathy. Assume fox is good, close thread. Either way I see an answer to the questions and problems and no need for this discussion anymore. Smashboards isn't marital counseling. The struggle you and fox are having in your relationship is between you and fox, not you, fox, and smashboards.

You don't have swordsmen complaining that its not fair swords are obsolete and machine gun infantry are better and something needs to be done to fix this inequality. Swordsmen either continue it as a hobby and don't bother trying to beat machine gun infantry, or they give up being swordsmen and enlist in being machine gun infantry. Either move on or keep to yourself and stay the same. You can do something about being a fox main or not, but that is your decision and the community and the meta will move on with or without you.

 

[Nintendude]

Fox is still high tier and I think he's a reasonable counter to Kirby, even on DL.

 

[Han Solo]

My problem with the meta is where it is moving. People said that there's no evidence that the metagame is moving towards Pikachu and Kirby. What do we have at Apex? Lots of Pikachus and Kirbys. We also had a lot of Falcons like there always are. The best part about Apex standings for me was the number of Yoshis, which was nice. Wizzrobe, Tacos, Sheer, and Star King showed that Yoshi can do very well.

There's nothing like that for aspiring Fox mains. When Fox is being played, he loses.

And Fox is a reasonable counter to Kirby on DL in the same way Samus is a reasonable counter to Pikachu.

 

[Cobrevolution]

aka complete insanity

fox can do well

if you know how to use him


maybe there's another way of playing fox on dL that hasn't necessarily been utilized yet

 

[Shears]

I'm pretty sure when this game first came out people thought ness and link were the best. The ness link argument is dead, no one is fighting for them to have recognition or for the meta to cease so they can continue being good, championship caliber characters. Some people still play ness and link and they are a few who don't argue that ness and link deserve more respect and instead just play and do their best with them. Weedwack isn't ******** about how ness used to be the cool kid, instead he sits at the lunch table by himself and beats up people with ness at recess. Fox isn't the cool kid anymore so either keep hanging out with the fox mains, eat lunch with weedwack, or move on.

You can either be the stubborn swordsman or the swordsman that learns to shoot a gun, but you can't be both.

p.s. this is not a shot at weedwack but he is the only person I know that plays ness competitively. Idk if weedwack actually eats lunch by himself, it is just a metaphor for not playing a popular character.

 

[Nintendude]

My problem with the meta is where it is moving. People said that there's no evidence that the metagame is moving towards Pikachu and Kirby. What do we have at Apex? Lots of Pikachus and Kirbys. We also had a lot of Falcons like there always are. The best part about Apex standings for me was the number of Yoshis, which was nice. Wizzrobe, Tacos, Sheer, and Star King showed that Yoshi can do very well.

There's nothing like that for aspiring Fox mains. When Fox is being played, he loses.

And Fox is a reasonable counter to Kirby on DL in the same way Samus is a reasonable counter to Pikachu.

The metagame is constantly evolving. When Melee first came out, Sheik was dominating the game. Then the metagame became very heavy on Marth / Fox a few years later. Jigglypuff had a resurgence and some people thought she was the best character in the game. Then Armada's Peach happened and we're currently sitting in an era where the top 8-10 characters consistently place well at nationals (well, Apex was an exception I guess).

My point is that it's kind of narrow minded to just think we're moving one way towards a Pikachu and Kirby dominated metagame. Obviously they are the most common characters as they are the best (just like fox/falco in Melee), but good players adapt and come up with anti-metagame strategies to deal with this. We can either sit around and complain about it or we can keep pushing this game to its limits.

I also think it's pretty cool that top-8 featured almost no Pikachu whatsoever.

 

[Sangoku]

I'm pretty sure when this game first came out people thought ness and link were the best. The ness link argument is dead, no one is fighting for them to have recognition or for the meta to cease so they can continue being good, championship caliber characters. Some people still play ness and link and they are a few who don't argue that ness and link deserve more respect and instead just play and do their best with them. Weedwack isn't *****ing about how ness used to be the cool kid, instead he sits at the lunch table by himself and beats up people with ness at recess. Fox isn't the cool kid anymore so either keep hanging out with the fox mains, eat lunch with weedwack, or move on.

You can either be the stubborn swordsman or the swordsman that learns to shoot a gun, but you can't be both.

p.s. this is not a shot at weedwack but he is the only person I know that plays ness competitively. Idk if weedwack actually eats lunch by himself, it is just a metaphor for not playing a popular character.

I think Han Solo's problem is that it's not generally accepted that Fox is bad. It's like if everybody told the swordsman that sword aren't obsolete and he just sucks at using them if he can't beat guns. In the same way, a Ness main plays Ness knowing his character is generally agreed upon to be bad.

Han Solo just needs people saying Fox is bad. FOX SUCKS HAN SOLO.

On a serious note though, as I've said already, I have never met someone whose Fox was more dangerous than his Mario and I am more confident counterpicking a Kirby with Samus than Fox. I'm not saying this is an argument for saying Fox is bad, the more probable reason is that I am bad. But yeah, after years of maining Fox I've never been confident with her (yes, her).

 

[Han Solo]

I don't necessarily want people to say "It's alright, Solo. You did well for using such a bad character. Fox is terrible compared to the REAL top 4 (pika, kirby, falcon, yoshi). We all still love you for trying new things with Fox."

You don't need to say that (but it would help :3). I want people to tell me how Fox is still considered good even though there's no tourney results to back it up, and when Fox is used, he loses. I'm not saying Fox is as bad as Ness, but Ness used to be considered top tier. We all know how that turned out. Why can't we say the same for Fox?

 

[Shears]

Can we all agree to just put fox wherever Solo wants him to go in the tier list and end this nagging?

Fox is the worst.

Fox is bad.

Fox is below average.

Fox is average.

Fox is above average.

Fox is good.

Fox is the best.

There you go Solo, quote whichever line you think is appropriate and use it as my vote and opinion.

10areyouhappynowchars?

 

[stylisland]

I don't see the point of this. If Jigglypuff won the tournament beating Kirbys, Pikas, Yoshis, and Falcons. Does the character get the praise or does the person who played as the character get it? Obviously character matchup's matter and I agree Fox is a glass cannon and is gimped very easily. I wouldn't say Fox has it easy vs kirby's and pika's but it's possible for fox to gimp kirby's (Though I wouldn't say it's easy). But Fox isn't bad against Falcon, Mario, DK, Ness, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, and Luigi. Falcon and Mario are more even and I'd say Yoshi is a better matchup against Fox, and I also feel most players don't do that well against Yoshi because only a few people are really good with Yoshi and not many people are use to it.(The last statement might be wrong as I don't know who you guy's play or anything). I agree that Fox should be lower than Falcon in the tier list but to think Fox is bad because Kirby and Pika are getting used a lot is just a whole different thing.

 

[T-bone1]

Here's a thought: if we move fox far enough down on the tier list, maybe Isai will go fox at apex 2015...

Make it happen people!

 

[AtotheZ]

I still think fox is real good, even on DL, he just has to be played differently (for the most part).

He definitely isn't as safe of a pick as kirby and pikachu, but fox easily excels in areas that pikachu and kirby don't.

I'd say he's still top 2. Looking at melee, fox did not win a major tournament for a long time, but he was still considered the best. The potential was there, but there was a lot of counter game against fox that makes a lot of barriers for him to overcome. The same goes for 64.

I'm guessing a lot of players shied away from him as well since DL isn't really his comfort zone. Yoshi/Mario/Kirby/Pikachu/Falcon are all safer picks for Dream land. Give it some time and I think Fox might have more of a say on a DL only ruleset.

 

[clubbadubba]

^^hahahhahaa sounds like a plan T-bone!

We have never done a full matchup chart for just DL (I think). That would be the only way to make a real tierlist for dreamland only. Fox gets bumped in tier list because he DOMINATES the bottom 6 like the other high tiers don't. Vs high tiers, he's still pretty good. Han, Yoshi is NOT top 4. Yoshi players currently live off of the fact that their are a lot of good players that do not play good yoshi's often. Yoshi had a good showing, everyone goes back to their drawing boards and figures out the matchups vs the dinosaur, and he won't have the success he had. Yoshi sucks the D for real (5th or 6th). If you look at the matchups (which is the only way to determine who's "better" in any meaningful way)

top 6:

fox 35 65 pika
fox 40 60 kirby
fox 50 50 falcon
fox 40 60 yoshi
fox 50 50 mario

yoshi 40 60 pika
yoshi 30 70 kirby
yoshi 35 65 falcon
yoshi 60 40 fox
yoshi ? ? mario

These are my ROUGH estimates of matchups, lets not tear them apart guys. No idea on yoshi vs mario won't even try. Excluding the mario matchup (which honestly not that relevant currently), yoshi and fox are even in points (165). However fox does better vs the top 3 than yoshi does. Add into all this fox destroying the rest of the cast and fox is clearly better than yoshi.

Also, han I heard you commentate one matchup that was fox vs kirby, and you were asked how to approach kirby and replied with "you don't". Not sure if exaggeration or not but I think that's a bad strategy, just saying. EVOLVE.

 

[mixa]

after years of maining Fox I've never been confident with her (yes, her).

does Fox have a female voice in Lylat Wars or what





——————————

 

[Maliki]

The tier list is there but it doesn't matter. It's about the players skill. Isai won Apex with jiggly puff it's not like jiggly puff is going to get bumped up in the tier list. It's about the players skill on the game. Cobr mains samus and he does great at tournaments his skill in the game is the main reason he does good not the character.

I think that if you put time into the game and practice often than who you play as wont matter.

 

[Sedda]

Hyrule </3 we miss you

 

[rjgbadger]

Dude Solo you gotta bitchin and learn more about Fox man. There are so many things that Fox is capable of doing, that not every Fox player does. Fox players have a tendency to limit themselves, when he in fact is one of the most limitless and unpredictable characters. (I am guilty of this too). I hate the mentality that a certain character or stage or strategy is why they lost. It is very self-limiting and if you give excuses in your head like that, you're most likely going to be doing a lot worse.

The trick against falcon is not get grabbed or usmashed those two things mean death most of the time, if not all the time vs good players
The trick against Kirby is don't run into his bair and utilt and dair bull****. Get hit by any of these and you are getting edge *****.
The trick against Pika is don't get read on where you land, to avoid getting baired, grabbed, or uaired. You will be carried offstage and killed if these happen.

Are all these techniques difficult to avoid? Sure. Are they IMPOSSIBLE to avoid? Not by any means. Fox has a gun, a lot of times you have to approach him. Just don't use the gun predictably. Fox has a dtilt with absurd range and combo starting ability, and edgeguard ability. Not once in watching you during Apex(I watched you a lot, considering you are on e of the only Fox players around) did I see you use walk away/towards>turn dtilt, pivot dtilt. Fox players have a tendency to be obsessed with dashing all over the place. This isn't necessary. Fox has one of the best neutral games of all characters, especially when it comes to versatility, and area covered. Vs certain charcters Fox can even use defensive option on the platforms on DL with shine cancels, shield drops, and well spaced bair and lasers, along with edge cancels and pivots.

If you grab falcon on DL he should be gimped and dead, off to next stock. there are many ways to grab falcon , too. Or get him offstage in general.

If you dtilt kirby at low %s, it should mean at least a 40% combo/edgeguard attempt. after that %, jabs start to pwn Kirby. You can also gimp him with grab at any% if you are smart about it, don't get aerialed offstage. Kirby in fact does NOT cover every option in ever situation in the air or on stage. Miraculous, right?

Same goes for Pika for combos... and If he Up B's figure out where he likes to go. Pika players have a tendency to think that their recovery is so good that they can recover for free a majority of the time. So they tend to only choose 3-5 different options to recover. Mainly onto center stage, grab ledge, top platform, and side platforms. Just get better at adapting to covering what he tends to do.

Your making TR3G seem like whiners. Don't be a whiner. Be a winner.

 

[rawrimamonster]

aka complete insanity

fox can do well

if you know how to use him


maybe there's another way of playing fox on dL that hasn't necessarily been utilized yet

yeah, people can relearn how to combo, follow di, and stop being completely gimp dependent or camp dependent because unless its falcon, you're not going to camp it out. Fox in the current meta is going to have to deal with chipping in damage into 1 or 2 hit combos, keeping enemies above him and baiting out dairs and bairs and punishing for kills. unless you're 100% that you're going to get it, do not go off stage for shines because with 64's ******** stun you're GOING to get cute red booties twirling or a fuzzy tail on your head gimping you.

 

[SheerMadness]

If I had the opportunity to play in more than one tourney a year I'd go all Fox a good amount.

Fox has the tools to win tourneys without Hyrule. He just has a lot less room for error than the other top chars.

Instead of feeling pity for Fox/yourself you need to take that as a challenge. Let that rage fuel your competitive spirit.

 

[ballin4life]

Sure didn't take long for the matchup theorycraft to come out.

Let's go back to evidence

OBSERVATION:
Players who main Fox do not place highly in tournaments and players who place highly do not choose to play Fox in high level tournament matches

HYPOTHESIS 1 (FOX SUX AKA THE SOLO):
Fox isn't a very good character. His character disadvantages cause low placings for players who primarily play Fox.

HYPOTHESIS 2 (IF U KNO HOW 2 USE HIM):
Fox is a good character, if you are good with him. But the best Fox players choose not to play Fox in high level tournament matches as they are more comfortable with other characters. Only noobs wind up maining Fox, so he has poor tournament placings.

HYPOTHESIS 3 (FOX 2 HARD):
Fox is a good character. However, his low margin of error and high technical skill requirement lead to poor tournament placings due to player fatigue, especially as tournaments require you to play smash for hours and hours on end and possibly even early in the morning after staying up all night.


Anyone got any others?

 

[mixa]

I got one: people will happily discuss endless boring uselss crap:

• match-up charts
  
• tier lists
  
• how good is Fox
  
• "the future of the metagame"
  
• "is Boom top 5 in the world (arguably top 3?!?!?) what about gers-JOSKE!!"

than to actually try to get better at the game.

proof:

Apex ends and we don't see "how can we play Fox better?", "what went wrong in match x y and z?", but we do see "Fox sucks.", "Let's change the ruleset", and more to come.

 

[mixa]

I've watched all the Apex Fox play that was recorded: Sensei and Sheer vs Falcons, Jaime vs Yoshi, Solo vs Puff/Pika. Here are the some problems:


Laser.

People need to either stop the "laser!" mantra, or append it, and the new version should be: 'learn how to laser', or 'lasering is ****ing hard'. Foxes are getting junked because of bad lasering -- and before I continue this, I don't claim to do anything better, but I can see bad stuff when I see it (so if you're one of those "oh yeah? let's see you do better" people, you better not read this.

Lasering is not easy. If it were, there would be more players doing it right. I'm gonna use examples of good players because who cares about what noobs are doing.

Types of bad laser:

• TYPE 1: "Yeah, that's-uh, just a poor spacing decision"

Lasering from afar without proper spacing or proper laser height: Falcon, or even Pika, rushes at you and punishes.

Ex.: Sensei vs Falcon

If you continue to watch this match, bad lasering reoccurs. Sensei does cool tricks with lasers nevertheless.

• TYPE 2: "Bat****-balls-to-the-wall risk; mediocre reward"

Usually shot in very close range, this is the laser that is just not worth it unless you absolutely know what you're doing.
When it works, everyone applauds and the Fox player thinks he's clutch; he follows with a grab or something and that's it. When it goes wrong, he's doomed.

Ex. 1: Jaime vs Yoshi
Ex. 2: Solo vs Puff (wind won that round rofl)
Ex. 3: Solo vs Pika
Ex. 3: Sheer vs Falcon 1
Ex. 4: Sheer vs Falcon 2 - defensive laser is bad
Ex. 5: Sensei vs Pika - defensive laser is bad 2

Now, Sheer had very good lasering I thought. I recommend the 2 games in which he went Fox. But still, the mistakes are valuable. Same for Solo. And here I'd like to note that despite the players they're playing against being good, there's nothing exceptional in their punishes -- that's the problem.

TheMoreYouKnow: for your laser to hit a standing Pikachu, it needs to be frame perfect. If he's in running animation, it may or may not hit (probably never, I don't feel like testing it too much). That's how much you can rely on your lasers in those situations.

I used some Apex 14 ones so we all know it's recent. But these are common in Fox play. If you're not Boom or Isai (or if you are secretly good and don't publish videos like Star King and tacos), you're probably doing that all the time. I see it all the time. Bad lasers galore.

Looks like I lost too much time trash talking your lasering habilities that I might not do the rest of the "(VERY FREQUENT -- MORE FREQUENT THAN YOU MIGHT THINK) FOX PROBLEMS".

 

[Battlecow]

The one top-level fox we saw did as well as the pika/falcon.

Foxes need to adapt to DL, I think. LD, for example, never looks "better" than foxes who do way worse than him, because he plays super smart all the time. Smarter, less risky play to adapt to the super imbalanced punishment dynamic that exists in some MU's on DL?

But yeah no I do agree. Fox at non-tippity-top-level is not great. Still viable, not great.