let's talk camping

[Zink]

we all know how cool Snake is. But let's not ignore something that will certainly be a big part of Brawl's defensive play- CAMPING. Snake is a camping champion, or several reasons-
1) He is big and fat, so he won't fly far when hit. Meaning he can camp for a while.
2) Cypher is not only a good recovery move, it gets you out of trouble on the stage too.
3) Lots of projectiles.
4) Easy to build a wall.

A wall? Now what do I mean by that? Why it's simple. A wall is something your opponent has dificulty crossing. Now when buillding your Snake's wall, the main component will be the DSMASH MINE. it's rough enough to make people think twice about just soaking up the hit, and it can't be removed short of setting it off. So to start off building a wall, set a mine near the edge of the stage, maybe about 1/3-1/4 to the center. The idea is to give yoursel enough room to manuver but not so much that your camp is to big to defend. Behind this mine, feel free to toss nades, nikita, whatever you like. That's basic.
But now that everyone has brawl, let's experiment a little more. Build a double wall by dropping c4 a few yards behind the mine, so it's twice as hard to approach you. Toss out random usmashes from behind the wall so your enemy has less windows in which he can safely approach. And when he does? You have options- sheild drop nade, PS stick, anything OOS, shieldgrab- the point is, Snake has a lot of options at this strong defensive position. There's only one way to decide which are good, though- experiment! Can you get away with Nikita behind a mine? What about behind a mine and c4? How well do short grenade tosses act as a deterrent? Is it safe to cypher out, and if so, when? Is it worthwhile to camp on ledges? try random stuff to limit enemy approach options and see what works.
Make Snake a champ camper!

 

[Parthenon]

I find that dsmash mines suck. Good luck getting enough time to lay one on someone like Marth. If you do it after a kill, he'll just walk over it while invincible to get it out of the way. If you're doing it when they're offstage, you could be using Nikita instead and getting a kill.

That's just my opinion. I don't use dsmash any more.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

dsmash mines are your best friend. You might not be using them properly Parth...

Basically plant them on the edges, everyone has to grab a ledge at some point, right? And there is always time to plant a dsmash with Snake's melee. Also, there is almost no one I've seen yet (in both reality and video) that can effectively edgegaurd, and even KO, with the Nakita. IMHO it's used for setting the enemy up for other moves. (<--------discuss this)

I disagree with you though OP. I think Snake needs high movement in a match in order to keep the enemy moving and traversing the stage (mines). And how will camping help you against Samus? Maybe Link? One character that REALLY gives me a hard time in camping situations: Pit. His arrows and deflection drive me insane.

I really think Snake's fsmash is underestimated as well. Yes it's laggy, but the punch that thing packs is godly. I've never seen a move aside from the GDorf's punch that has so much power. The trick is reading your opponent enough to land it..

 

[JesiahTEG]

Really, I don't see Snake's Fsmash being effective at all vs good players. Even dthrow tech chase fsmash is too slow to hit.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

What should you do after dthrow? I can never seem to hit them... Do yo uHAVE to tech chase?

 

[Parthenon]

dsmash mines are your best friend. You might not be using them properly Parth...

Basically plant them on the edges, everyone has to grab a ledge at some point, right? And there is always time to plant a dsmash with Snake's melee. Also, there is almost no one I've seen yet (in both reality and video) that can effectively edgegaurd, and even KO, with the Nakita. IMHO it's used for setting the enemy up for other moves. (<--------discuss this)

I disagree with you though OP. I think Snake needs high movement in a match in order to keep the enemy moving and traversing the stage (mines). And how will camping help you against Samus? Maybe Link? One character that REALLY gives me a hard time in camping situations: Pit. His arrows and deflection drive me insane.

I really think Snake's fsmash is underestimated as well. Yes it's laggy, but the punch that thing packs is godly. I've never seen a move aside from the GDorf's punch that has so much power. The trick is reading your opponent enough to land it..

I don't know how you can find the time to plant it on an edge unless you just hit the other guy off-stage. In that case, Nikita is better in nearly every way. If you direct your Nikita right, sending them into the stage for a spike is very easy and very common. Even if they've got something that auto-sweetspots for Nikita immunity (which a mine wouldn't stop either), you can slow the Nikita until their invincibility frames vanish and hit them on the ledge which, from my experience, spikes them downward.

From my experience, I've gotten more kills with Nikita than with dsmash. Also, if you've got a dsmash mine on stage, say goodbye to dash attack->usmash glitch. You'll slide right into it.

Also, comparing fsmash to Dorf punch pretty much explains why it's useless. When's the last time a Dorf player used the punch in high-level play aside from getting lucky?

What should you do after dthrow? I can never seem to hit them... Do yo uHAVE to tech chase?

Yeah, pretty much. Dthrow, then dthrow again if you can figure out where they're going. You have to predict, though. If they use getup attack, shield+spotdodge to stay in range and grab them again. If you can make them afraid of standing up, you can follow dthrow with C4 for an easy stick.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I don't know how you can find the time to plant it on an edge unless you just hit the other guy off-stage. In that case, Nikita is better in nearly every way. If you direct your Nikita right, sending them into the stage for a spike is very easy and very common.

That's what I'm saying, it takes like under 3 seconds to plant the c4, you can just knock them back and plant it as they're flying - plant it wherever you want. Yeah, the Nakita can be usef for edgegaurd, but not at lower damages. Also, the mines have huge knockback - more than the Nakita, AND the Nakita can be easy to dodge against, like I said before, a Pit.

Maybe it's not the greatest edgegaurd, but I don't understand how not having a mine on the stage that you have planted is more useful than having one.

I don't know why you outright refrain from using them, I really think they're crucial. In my experience, I've gotten more KOs with mines than Nakita, and I'm getting pretty accurate with that thing.

Also, comparing fsmash to Dorf punch pretty much explains why it's useless. When's the last time a Dorf player used the punch in high-level play aside from getting lucky?

That's true, I'm not sure what I'm thinking. You can't even descend attack with Snake's fsmash.

sending them into the stage for a spike

I also don't quite understand this. Into the stage as they're flying off of it? With the Nakita? For which spike?

 

[hippochinfat!!]

I just plant mines after I kill my enemy. It works well.

 

[Parthenon]

That's what I'm saying, it takes like under 3 seconds to plant the c4, you can just knock them back and plant it as they're flying - plant it wherever you want. Yeah, the Nakita can be usef for edgegaurd, but not at lower damages. Also, the mines have huge knockback - more than the Nakita, AND the Nakita can be easy to dodge against, like I said before, a Pit.

Maybe it's not the greatest edgegaurd, but I don't understand how not having a mine on the stage that you have planted is more useful than having one.

I don't know why you outright refrain from using them, I really think they're crucial. In my experience, I've gotten more KOs with mines than Nakita, and I'm getting pretty accurate with that thing.

If you're talking about C4, that's perfectly good to put on the edge or wherever you want, I spam C4 like a fiend. Dsmash is just very slow, it vanishes very quickly, it can hit you just as easily as the other guy, and it's harder to plant unnoticed than C4. After all that work, it ends up being just another stage hazard, and the only advantage for Snake is that he gets to pick where it goes.

If you put a mine down against Pit, you're restricted as much as he is, but his missile spam is better than yours. You just gave yourself a disadvantage.

I also don't quite understand this. Into the stage as they're flying off of it? With the Nakita? For which spike?

Usually when someone is grabbing the ledge, and I run a Nikita into them after the invincibility frames run out, it shoots them into the side of the stage and they bounce downward and die. I've gotten quite a few kills like that, but I don't know the circumstances for sure.

I just plant mines after I kill my enemy. It works well.

The other guy can just walk over it after spawning to set it off with no damage.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

If you're talking about C4, that's perfectly good to put on the edge or wherever you want, I spam C4 like a fiend. Dsmash is just very slow, it vanishes very quickly, it can hit you just as easily as the other guy, and it's harder to plant unnoticed than C4. After all that work, it ends up being just another stage hazard, and the only advantage for Snake is that he gets to pick where it goes.

This is very true. But, in setting a proxy, have you not just put the map in your favour? If Snake plays defensively, you're now limiting your enemies movement, and creating sections for them to go. I know I said Snake should be pretty mobile but, in a defensive mode, would this not be a benefit?

EDIT: put c4 instead of proxy

 

[Parthenon]

This is very true. But, in setting a C4, have you not just put the map in your favour? If Snake plays defensively, you're now limiting your enemies movement, and creating sections for them to go. I know I said Snake should be pretty mobile but, in a defensive mode, would this not be a benefit?

I have no problems with C4. It's Snake's best attack IMO. Dsmash just isn't the same at all.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

sorry, I meant dsmash

 

[Parthenon]

sorry, I meant dsmash

Then it limits your movement too. And if you somehow placed a dsmash so that it doesn't limit your movement, then it probably doesn't limit your opponent either. It's not like Snake can somehow avoid the mine better than the opponent unless you're playing Ike or something.

 

[abit_rusty]

Then it limits your movement too. And if you somehow placed a dsmash so that it doesn't limit your movement, then it probably doesn't limit your opponent either. It's not like Snake can somehow avoid the mine better than the opponent unless you're playing Ike or something.

Well yea, but I believe we're talking about incorporating mines with all of snake's arsenal to create a greater limit upon your opponent. From my playing the last few days, with friends and various random people online, using mines in conjunction with the c4/nikita/nades/upsmash are enough to push that limit onto your opponent's game.

 

[Parthenon]

Well yea, but I believe we're talking about incorporating mines with all of snake's arsenal to create a greater limit upon your opponent. From my playing the last few days, with friends and various random people online, using mines in conjunction with the c4/nikita/nades/upsmash are enough to push that limit onto your opponent's game.

I understand that in conjunction with his other moves, mines can be a very powerful tool, but managing to have out grenades, C4, mortars etc. in all the right spots while having the time to plant a decent downsmash mine is very difficult unless the opponent decides to stop moving. Even after all that, you've successfully limited your opponents movement for about 15 seconds before your mine poofs with no damage done. With all the setup you pour into creating an advantagous stage, you don't get enough return on it.

Also, anyone can walk close to the mine, roll over it, and detonate it no problem. Or DI near it while falling and tech over it to detonate it. I forget which works. Still, it's way too easy for the other guy to negate your mine, not worth the time it takes to plant one IMO.

 

[Zink]

I understand that in conjunction with his other moves, mines can be a very powerful tool, but managing to have out grenades, C4, mortars etc. in all the right spots while having the time to plant a decent downsmash mine is very difficult unless the opponent decides to stop moving. Even after all that, you've successfully limited your opponents movement for about 15 seconds before your mine poofs with no damage done. With all the setup you pour into creating an advantagous stage, you don't get enough return on it.

Also, anyone can walk close to the mine, roll over it, and detonate it no problem. Or DI near it while falling and tech over it to detonate it. I forget which works. Still, it's way too easy for the other guy to negate your mine, not worth the time it takes to plant one IMO.

The idea is, you can control the stage very effectively as long as you keep flinging hitboxes everywhere. A mine cuts off part of the stage. C4 is good, BUT the detonation takes time and leaves you open, so you need to be sure you'll get a hit- not easy considering how visible the C4 is. Anyway, keeping your opponent away gives you time to chuck some nades and take stock of the situation. As long as you lead the match, you have no reason to attack, and every reason to create a strong defensive posture.

 

[abit_rusty]

I think that if they actually take the time to detonate your mine then you've been at least slightly successful in stalling them and thus aiding to your camping game. The point is that they are doing something that they would not normally do because you planted it, so you're still influencing your opponent.

Snake takes a good deal of strategy and I'm really enjoying his playstyle...(unlike my melee main CF which had virtually no camping potential..not that I don't miss him....)

 

[Parthenon]

"Influencing" someone by planting a mine to make them get rid of it isn't exactly useful in the middle of a 1v1. You might as well taunt and say that you "influenced" the opponent into coming to you. The mine just does not land often, especially not in comparison with a well-controlled Nikita, and if you can mine, you might as well Nikita.

The people I play against aren't ******** or anything. If I plant a mine, they know where it is, and for the next 15 seconds they spam whatever projectiles they have at me while I end up being inhibited by my own mine. Also, planting one on the stage removes the possibility of dash attack->usmash because he'll slide over 3/4 of the ground. The only characters it's actually usefull against are people like Falcon, Ike, or Marth. Everyone else just camps beyond it or shoots it once. Against the no-projectile people, Nikita mindgames tend to yield better results and can land kills in certain cases.

I think the point I'm having trouble conveying is that once people get used to the mine, it stops being useful. The same cannot be said of the Nikita, and when you mine, you could just as well use that time to fire a free Nikita.

 

[abit_rusty]

Oh well I see your point that it could be situational if you'd plant or fire a missile, or how often you do either one....that and character matchups make a huge difference as you mentioned. Take R.O.B. for example, I can barely plant mines without them being shrugged off by a laser or top, so I rarely can do it unless he's been knocked offstage. Then there's Pit who can virtually negate nade/missile spam from a distance with his shield, and can usually avoid a curving nikita because his shield creates a predictable path. I don't play against amateurs either and it's true that you can't solely rely on the mine. It could possibly be just personal preferences, and how you mix them up, that creates the variety in Snake user styles.

off topic question: Do you have the Japanese or NA version of brawl? Unless I'm doing it wrong, I can't get the dash attack to transition into a sliding up smash. (I have the NA version).

 

[saud]

Crud. They removed this in the NA version, I just tested it. Unless I'm doing it wrong...

It's still there

PsychoMidget already answered your question in another thread

 

[abit_rusty]

PsychoMidget already answered your question in another thread

lawl I missed it since the new replies made a new page...but .thanks then. Still..how do you pull it off?

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I really do think that if you're playing defensively, planting a mine when you get the chance favours your defesive game. If you're playing a character that likes to move around, you've just funneled them into your selected play area. Snake doesn't need to move very much in his defesive game, and he also gets great air time with the cypher, making it easier for him to manouver around the map and around his own mines if he needs to...

And another thing: Snake is a TANK. He can brush off the explosion from his mine, while the enemy he just suplexed into it won't, depending.

No?

 

[saud]

lawl I missed it since the new replies made a new page...but .thanks then. Still..how do you pull it off?

Dunno...I only managed to pull it off once...and never again (I have tried some 15 times and still nothing.) :/

 

[abit_rusty]

Dunno...I only managed to pull it off once...and never again (I have tried some 15 times and still nothing.) :/

Nvm found it. Gotta hit upsmash as you connect with the beginning of the dash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvbNohOQ3p8

 

[bman in 2288]

Do it with the control stick. Much easier to do the mortar-slide that way. Dash attack, and then transition to usmash.

 

[Miles]

I can only dash-cancel(Cromplosion) after I've hit someone and with the C-stick, I've seen someone charge the up smash after the dash attack that's really sexy. Is it possible to dashupsmash without hitting the opponent in English Brawl? On brawlisall there is someone doing it without hitting the opp. How sick would it be to be sliding around the stage like that constantly.

On the note of Land mines in camping I've found it possible to shield-grab toss the guy off the stage, plant a claymore, and short hop while turning to do a Nikita. That's like the only time I use landmines and really it doesn't do anything except look cool.
Another technique I use in camping is charging an upsmash if the enemy is a fair distance away so if they run at me I have a mortar ready to come down on them.

 

[abit_rusty]

The other day I finally got to play some non-laggy, stocked free-for-alls (unlike those 2 min basic brawls online). Let me just say, this is where Snake's camping game really shines. His heavy weight and great recovery (bomb jump ftw) combined with his ranged moves almost always left me as one of the last two standing, usually one-stock up with high damage or else just having less damage and the same amount of stock as the other. Then I'd oftentimes win . As you can imagine, the mine and c4 are very effective in the chaos of FFA, and Snake's grenades are great to harass from a distance(just make sure you cook them so they don't toss it back). Mortar is a surprisingly effective edgeguard as well.

Granted, you might get comments directed at you such as "cheap" , "spammer" and "stop camping", but the thing is that I found Snake won't last long in the fray up close and personal with 2+ people duking it out with you. His attacks are either too laggy, or the fast ones half a small window to hit (uair/bair). You've gotta play defensive and use your arsenal to outlast them and rack up damage, so that when the time comes, a few tilts/jabs or an unseen mine/c4 can finish the job. Speaking of c4 did I mention it's way easier to stick people in FFA?

 

[JJnew]

The other guy can just walk over it after spawning to set it off with no damage.

true but it will make the oponent loose their time on the invinsibility frames... If you plant the dsmash on a side of the stage and run towards the other, by the time they distroy the landmine and get where you are, they wont have their inv frames

 

[saud]

The other day I finally got to play some non-laggy, stocked free-for-alls. Let me just say, this is where Snake's camping game really shines. His heavy weight and great recovery (bomb jump ftw) combined with his ranged moves almost always left me as one of the last two standing, usually one-stock up with high damage or else just having less damage and the same amount of stock as the other. Then I'd oftentimes win . As you can imagine, the mine and c4 are very effective in the chaos of FFA, and Snake's grenades are great to harass from a distance(just make sure you cook them so they don't toss it back). Mortar is a surprisingly effective edgeguard as well.

Granted, you might get comments directed at you such as "cheap" , "spammer" and "stop camping", but the thing is that I found Snake won't last long in the fray up close and personal with 2+ people duking it out with you. His attacks are either too laggy, or the fast ones half a small window to hit (uair/bair). You've gotta play defensive and use your arsenal to outlast them and rack up damage, so that when the time comes, a few tilts/jabs or an unseen mine/c4 can finish the job. Speaking of c4 did I mention it's way easier to stick people in FFA?

Ooooh yes!!! Snake is a monster when it comes to FFA. People I play frequently with now have the habbit of watching everything I do in case I plant a C4/claymore somewhere on the map. Having two enemies or so fight, and you just jump on one or something stick him is....amazing. I just end up watchign them fight, and when I feel like pissing them off, I detonate it.

Tasty.