Level 3 CPUs... why?

[Fatmanonice]

Why are they considered to be the best form of training when you don't have human opponents readily available? I understand that the higher level computer players follow predictible patterns and respond immediately to your every movement unlike human players but is there really anything truely benefital about 3 stocking an opponent that's worse than most beginners are? I'm asking this because this is advice that has been passed around since Melee and I still don't completely understand it.

 

[Steel]

work on spacing

 

[Kasai]

When fighting CPUs, you aren't practicing the simple act of actually fighting and trying to win against them because you simply won't get better that way. They don't punish, they are far too predictable and they have reflexes that people simply can't have.

Having said that, practicing against computers is, more or less, a way of fine tuning certain aspects of your game play (specifically spacing, timing ad precision). You can't just take it like a regular fight because when it comes to regular brawling, computers plain suck at it.

There is no replacement for fighting a human but if you have to, fighting CPUs for the reasons listed above is much, much better than just fighting them to win.

 

[Airwalkerr]

Practicing on level 9's by beating them does nothing for your game. You can do things on computers that would never work on humans, or vice versa. Its like practising Discus for a soccer game. It just doesn't work.If only wi-fi didn't suck *** so bad, then you would always have someone to practice with. As it is now, wifi requires different... well, almost everything in order to play it well. You need new timing, for one thing.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

Practicing on level 9's by beating them does nothing for your game. You can do things on computers that would never work on humans, or vice versa. Its like practising Discus for a soccer game. It just doesn't work.If only wi-fi didn't suck *** so bad, then you would always have someone to practice with. As it is now, wifi requires different... well, almost everything in order to play it well. You need new timing, for one thing.

I get no button lag while playing wifi... I see no difference (unless the lag is REALLY bad)

 

[brentlouis]

Practicing on level 9's by beating them does nothing for your game. You can do things on computers that would never work on humans, or vice versa. Its like practising Discus for a soccer game. It just doesn't work.If only wi-fi didn't suck *** so bad, then you would always have someone to practice with. As it is now, wifi requires different... well, almost everything in order to play it well. You need new timing, for one thing.

When fighting CPUs, you aren't practicing the simple act of actually fighting and trying to win against them because you simply won't get better that way. They don't punish, they are far too predictable and they have reflexes that people simply can't have.

Having said that, practicing against computers is, more or less, a way of fine tuning certain aspects of your game play (specifically spacing, timing ad precision). You can't just take it like a regular fight because when it comes to regular brawling, computers plain suck at it.

There is no replacement for fighting a human but if you have to, fighting CPUs for the reasons listed above is much, much better than just fighting them to win.

Yes. Level 9s do the same thing over and over again. They are predictable. There is no replacement for a human.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

But don't all computers follow a pattern?

 

[Andrew Ott]

Yes all computers follow a pattern, which is why you want to fight one who's pattern consists of little more than recovering from hits and walking. Theoretically, CPUs on "stand" in training mode are the best practice, some people prefer attacking ones just because they approach.

 

[Bakithi]

Personally, I think that fighting against level 3's is better than 9's because of most of the reasons stated above my post; You don't have to play to win. All I do with level 3's is work on my own game play patterns, and I work on seeing openings in combos and whatnot. And yes, they aren't a replacement for people, but still, they should be used, in my opinion.

 

[Psychoace]

I think at least in melee the level three's DI'd randomly while the level nine always DI'd away.

 

[E.M.]

I don't know what patterns some of you are talking about with level 9's. I just can't see a pattern. They act humanly sometimes, using tricks that a human would most likely pull off. Then you notice how they CHEAT. Oh yes they cheat alright. Reminds me of street fighter games.

I usually whip their *** with bowser. I might even have 4 stock left in a 5 stock match. But with other characters, I just can't win even 50% of the time. I tried using Ganondorf against a level 9 Lucario 4 times and lost all of them with Lucario having 1-3 stock left.

You know what I learned playing against 9's? They point out your bad habits. I used to abuse Bowsers and Ganons down B all the time until level 9 showed me how punishable it is.

 

[Hype]

I don't know what patterns some of you are talking about with level 9's. I just can't see a pattern. They act humanly sometimes, using tricks that a human would most likely pull off. Then you notice how they CHEAT. Oh yes they cheat alright. Reminds me of street fighter games.

I usually whip their *** with bowser. I might even have 4 stock left in a 5 stock match. But with other characters, I just can't win even 50% of the time. I tried using Ganondorf against a level 9 Lucario 4 times and lost all of them with Lucario having 1-3 stock left.

You know what I learned playing against 9's? They point out your bad habits. I used to abuse Bowsers and Ganons down B all the time until level 9 showed me how punishable it is.

Maybe you haven't played against enough level 9s to notice the patterns. For example, I recently picked up Dedede and I was playing level 9 snakes to practise chain grabs (I assumed they would be the best at escaping it if I ****ed up) of coarse I didn't spend the whole match grabing sometimes I would attack in other ways. The biggest thing that stood out was that when I jumped up in the air 3-4 times positioning myself for a Bair, every time I fast falled down to hit my bair he Utilted, end every time we tied priority. After this happend a few times I tried fast falling, canceling it with a jump, then fast falling again for the bair. everytime he would miss his Utilt, then get hit my bair.

My point is that CPUs cant think they do what they are programmed to do, therefore they will do the same thing every time a certain situation occurs. A pattern.

I think a good human is much better for picking up on your flaws. human will recognize when someone is being perdictable. a CPU wont try to perdict you based on what you did earlier in the match, a human player might.

 

[Fatmanonice]

When fighting CPUs, you aren't practicing the simple act of actually fighting and trying to win against them because you simply won't get better that way. They don't punish, they are far too predictable and they have reflexes that people simply can't have.

Having said that, practicing against computers is, more or less, a way of fine tuning certain aspects of your game play (specifically spacing, timing ad precision). You can't just take it like a regular fight because when it comes to regular brawling, computers plain suck at it.

There is no replacement for fighting a human but if you have to, fighting CPUs for the reasons listed above is much, much better than just fighting them to win.

How would you recommend that I go about this? I understand the concepts but I don't know I can accurately display them if I don't pretend that it's a serious fight. I also don't see how there can be that much benefit out of it when the CPU usually doesn't DI and can't even tech landings most of the time. Like I said earlier, not even beginners are this bad.

 

[Vyse]

In melee, you practiced with lvl 1's because of how much frickin DI they had. To combo them, was to combo something with really good DI.

In both games, its about getting used to a CPU.

I don't know what patterns some of you are talking about with level 9's. I just can't see a pattern. They act humanly sometimes, using tricks that a human would most likely pull off.

That you can read and recognise these apparent 'tricks' is proof that you are used to Vs'ing a CPU. You could beat up a lvl 9 CPU over and over and over and it would not prove a thing, other than that you've proved that you are able to beat the system. It can teach you only so much.

You know what to expect out of a CPU. The point of training against a lvl 3(Or 1) CPU is that you are practicing combo's (I use the term combo's sparingly mind you, since they aren't as prevalent this time around as they were in melee).

The umbrella term that is 'Mindgames' is something that diminishes the more you play against CPU's, especially when you have to work to beat them.

 

[Iron Thorn]

Is the CPU good for practicing ATs on?

 

[Snail]

Is the CPU good for practicing ATs on?

Depends on the technique :/

 

[BEES]

Seems to me like 9s figure out what you're doing and account for it after a while. They're pretty good at forcing me to use a variety of styles to win. Maybe it's just the placebo effect.

They're definitely better than they used to be. I could 5-stock 9s in Melee without even using any ATs. Now it requires a lot of patience to finish them off, and often I only get them by a stock. They play very disruptively.

 

[Peck]

Once I played a 9 with a 2 CPU and we lost by 1 point.
3s sometimes dont move in batle.

 

[Edds]

lvl3 dont read your button input. lvl9's do.

 

[Crizthakidd]

dont fight a cpu to win lol if u must pract moves and ats in training mode and then apply them in a brawl vs a lvl 3 or 8 cpu. practice timing and spacing, what works what doest. none of this is really preparing u for tough humans so make shure u get a relative lag free match online or invite some buddies over

 

[CUsmasher2011]

The computer in this game is a LOT tougher than in Melee. The computers in Melee seemed to be obsessed with grabbing and throwing you. The computer in Brawl actually fights you. Still, they are only good for training purposes and learning combos, it won't exactly make you any better. Playing humans gives you a chance to pick up more advanced techniques that you can't really see with the CPU.

 

[Plum]

One thing that I do like about lvl 9's, is that they helped me a lot with knowing how to force moves to connect. What I mean by that, is that lets say I trick the lvl 9 into shooting projectiles at me. Very easy to do. I bucket said projectiles with good ol' G&W. With a human, I have a chance of getting the bucket out in a number of situations, like baiting my opponent and they just fall for the trick. Good luck getting a lvl 9 taking some bait and getting hit by it. They will perfect shield it every time. So what I learned from it was ways to make it impossible for the lvl 9 to react in time and do anything about it. And if a computer who can read your button pressing can't react to it, then a human can't.

I also like practicing AT's against level 9s. Mainly because if a lvl 9 can find a way around it, a human can. Also by seeing how they cheat there way around techniques that work on humans, I might be able to use what they do myself, assuming I can react in time.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Like I asked earlier, can anyone tell me the "correct" way to practice against CPUs? I understand the concept of spacing but how do you practice it?

*Just to make sure we're all on the same page, spacing is more or less positioning yourself to better benefit you in battle and knowing if you're standing in one spot, you can/can't hit your opponent with A, B, and C while your opponent can/can't hit with their A, B, and C, correct?*

 

[Vyse]

Fatmanonice, that is well put. Your definition of spacing is more or less correct.

The "correct" way to practice against CPU's is merely to use them as a punching bag. Hence why we ask that you use lvl 1 CPU's to practice on (Lvl 3 if you must) because that is all they are good for. Punching bags. Practicing your RAR combos, practice your snake-dashes. But practice on them sparingly, practice with them when you have no friends/siblings/decent wifi connection to work with.

As I've said before:
CPU's diminish what we collectively call 'Mindgames', especially if you are practicing against high level CPU's

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fatmanonice, that is well put. Your definition of spacing is more or less correct.

The "correct" way to practice against CPU's is merely to use them as a punching bag. Hence why we ask that you use lvl 1 CPU's to practice on (Lvl 3 if you must) because that is all they are good for. Punching bags. Practicing your RAR combos, practice your snake-dashes. But practice on them sparingly, practice with them when you have no friends/siblings/decent wifi connection to work with.

As I've said before:
CPU's diminish what we collectively call 'Mindgames', especially if you are practicing against high level CPU's

Thanks for the advice. None of my friends are even into Smash Bros (FPS and racing games are what they are into) and I have 20 people on my friend roster but most of them aren't regularly on so there are times when I'll go several days without playing a human opponent outside of Anyone battles on Wifi.

 

[Vyse]

No worries : ]

Where do you live?
Have you investigated whether there are any regular meets in your area?

Perhaps you should try to organise something yourself through smashboards.

 

[Fatmanonice]

St. Louis... I don't think there has ever been a major tournament here and I have checked the tournament board on numerous occasins. Most of the tournaments are in the areas you'd expect: the west coast, east coast, and south east (mainly Florida). Not even Chicago really ever gets anything. Regardless, I don't know how I'd go about it since I have yet to even go to a tournament in person. I suppose I could organize an online tournament though but most people aren't interested in them because they supposedly "don't count" and aren't ranked.

 

[Cerozero]

If you fight the lvl.9 AI as if it where a real person and not exploit its weaknesses you can take something away from it.

I developed my ZSS against lvl.9 CPU and its true that you just cant get some combos off on the computer but the fact that they dodge them forces you to come up with a plan for when you are wide open. Sure they just let you have some recoveries that you should have been edgehogged out of and they don't spike all that well, but after practicing on Lvl.9 CPU I was able to pull off my combos with ease and read my opponents moves. Any smasher worth his salt can figure out what doesn't fly against humans....I lost my train of thought.

Lvl.9 Brawl computer willl help with your spacing and precision If you don't abuse it.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

I saw a CPU Ness spot dodge once.

True story

 

[The Real Inferno]

Lvl 9's also have annoying habits of doing things like "auto-teching" any surface they ever hit no matter how hard and impossibly fast it was.

I mostly train against real people, but I do require things to test on, so I use lvl 3 comps usually for that. It's good to use them for created stages sometimes as they'll do stupid **** that can show you a glitch you didn't notice in the design before.

 

[StoleUrCar]

I'm pretty sure the reason to face cpus on lvl 3 in melee was that they actually DI'd, and lvl 9's had inhuman reflexes that weren't really good to train against. Lvl 3's were great to practice tech skill, in my case, CF combos. In brawl, I think the lvl 9 cpu is worse (as in improved inhuman reflexes and prediction ability) and the lvl 3 isn't as good as melee.

Spoiler

It's not like brawl has much tech skill to practice anyway. >.>

 

[laird]

i love how lvl9s will auto-spotdodge and perfect shield any and all projectiles, and predict your buffered attacks that haven't even animated yet, but cannot figure out whats going on when you are in the air above them.

i just use higher CPUs to warm up and lvl 1-3s to practice spacing and stuff like tlink's SHDA or seamless RARing. Also its a pretty harmless way for newbs like me to get used to taking your opponent off the stage and spacing your recovery.

 

[Noa.]

I like that when I'm fighting a level 9 Lucario, I have my bucket out while he charges aure sphere, and he shoots it at me, even though I had the bucket out for at least 5 seconds. You would think they would KNOW what I'm doing.

 

[Cerozero]

I like that when I'm fighting a level 9 Lucario, I have my bucket out while he charges aure sphere, and he shoots it at me, even though I had the bucket out for at least 5 seconds. You would think they would KNOW what I'm doing.

You won't learn anything if you just prey on its weaknesses with stuff like that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You won't learn anything if you just prey on its weaknesses with stuff like that.

Which is easier said than done, considering most people train themselves...to abuse their opponent's weaknesses. The reason we practice on lower level computers is because...we don't have to think in order to win. We can litterally go on autopilot and just focus on tech skill (RARs, certain combo strings, DAC, Spin shot, Wing Canceling, Arrow Looping, and other miscelaneous techs). Anything that even remotely distracts from this practice should simply be removed. I'm not sure why it's level 3s instead of level 1s (though I think it's because level ones always DIed away, while level 3s was more random).

 

[CUsmasher2011]

OK, I just practice a little bit with level 3 CPU's in a short stock match, and it really does help out a lot for me practicing combo moves, aerial moves, and other finishing moves. You don't have to worry about the CPUs like you sometimes would at level 9, cause the lvl 3 cpu are pretty much target practice

 

[mja926]

Level 3s are easy as hell. There no point.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I'm not sure if it needs to be level 3's. It could probably be any level of computer which will aid you spacing techniques.

 

[jbuck594]

Practicing on level 9's by beating them does nothing for your game. You can do things on computers that would never work on humans, or vice versa. Its like practising Discus for a soccer game. It just doesn't work.If only wi-fi didn't suck *** so bad, then you would always have someone to practice with. As it is now, wifi requires different... well, almost everything in order to play it well. You need new timing, for one thing.

Thats what I hate, if you don't have any friends that are good are playing, you have to go to wifi which sometimes breaks off for no reason.

 

[Lord Aether]

The computer in this game is a LOT tougher than in Melee. The computers in Melee seemed to be obsessed with grabbing and throwing you. The computer in Brawl actually fights you. Still, they are only good for training purposes and learning combos, it won't exactly make you any better. Playing humans gives you a chance to pick up more advanced techniques that you can't really see with the CPU.

Also: constant Jab combos.