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Levelling Up Shulk's Arts - Custom Moveset Discussion 3.0

erico9001

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This is quite interesting. But it still stands that being able to switch Monado Arts whenever you want is too good an attribute to lose. Think about the Lucario matchup. Let's say you get him to kill% earlier than expected in Decisive Buster. He now has high Aura and the only thing you can do is tack on more damage. Also about Decisive Buster, think about a Shulk ditto. You are in Decisive Buster dealing insane amounts of damage. Then he Power Visions you and due to the likely insane damage he just countered, instant KO. This follows for all characters with counters, but Shulk's is the most effective. Now Decisive Smash, you'd better get the kill at the end of those 20 seconds, otherwise, you are useless. Can't deal damage, and easy to kill. Cancellation ability is too good an attribute to give up. DSheild is pretty good, though.
For the part about Decisive Smash, I addressed that:
Just like hyper smash, decisive smash kills surprisingly early. It's more menacing than hyper smash, because you know you can't stall it out. Eventually, Shulk's going to get that D-throw and kill you. Or almost any other move. I've killed with D-tilt in decisive smash. After getting the kill, play very defensively. It's surprisingly easy to evade enemy attacks with Shulk. Make sure to toss out some Nairs while defending to keep them on their toes. If the nair lands, the extra base/weighted knockback will send them decentlymace far, helping you in your stalling. Of course, feel free to go for a punish if you see an opportunity.

Or.. you can decide to fight more aggressively with decisive smash, in which case early gimps are somewhat easy to get. I don't personally do that, but it can work.
Decisive arts are nice against Lucario, because Decisive Smash allows you to take the stock before Lucario gets his aura. Hyper Smash also seem promising there, but the 6 seconds makes it too easy for Lucario to stall out.

With Decisive Buster, it is true you have to be mindful of counters in the MU's where they are a factor, but that's also true for regular buster. I actually love decisive buster or regular buster when facing regular arts Shulk. If you use moderate safety with your usage of attacks, you could be baiting the counter, not being hit by it.

Mace covered everything else I would say and more.
 
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Sha-Shulk

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Thats exactly what i said, D arts are the best version of shulk because it makes his neutral so much better than any other art.

I have explained why so many times by now, im glad that @Scarhi and @ erico9001 erico9001 share similar opinions now.

2123 is best shulk.
I wasn't doubting you, I agree.

I was just wondering what you meant.


SORRY ABOUT THE DOUBLE POST!!

Thats exactly what i said, D arts are the best version of shulk because it makes his neutral so much better than any other art.

I have explained why so many times by now, im glad that @Scarhi and @ erico9001 erico9001 share similar opinions now.

2123 is best shulk.
I agree, I was just asking.

I think DArts is the best in most situations, but I wouldn't say it is superior to the the others in all aspects. Standard's adaptability is great for some difficult MUs.
 
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Masonomace

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Lucario at base Aura power is 75% btw, & Decisive Smash Shulk smiles with the potential to KO Lucario right around that percent. Furthermore, The Smash & Decisive Smash Arts reducing Shulk's damage output by 50% makes it a better reason to activate against Lucario early on. Oh & yes Lucario does have the highest traction value, which means he's quite impressive at punishing our aerials by running & shielding toward us, which angles his bubble shield toward our attack gaining whatever amount of shield DI. Despite Buster Shulk having improved damage-on-shield & shield knockback, his aerials don't do too well of pushing Lucario back far enough unless it's BAir. Meanwhile Decisive Buster Shulk has the ideal shield knockback to keep Lucario's shielding approaches at bay whether it's NAir FAir or especially BAir.
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I'm down to discuss other Customs before we think about ideal sets too. Without a good analysis of Shulk's custom moves & their potential against the rest of the cast, I don't think it's right to write off a custom move which is why I would like MAS to be in at least one set. I would like BSC to be in at least one set as well but not that many. BSL could easily be in more than 2 sets.:shades:
 
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Scieric

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After a little more playing around, I have come to this discovery.


I am absolute garbage unless I can cancel my Art prematurely. I want to be able to just pop on an Art, and if it's not working, switch to one that will. Guess which custom can't do that? Oh, and guess what other custom doesn't really need the ability anyway? Hyper. But Hyper is too inbalanced. I could bet used to it, but meh. I go Standars Arts because they are best overall imo.
 

Masonomace

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I feel you @ Scieric Scieric . Although, there's more to deactivating an Art prematurely than if it isn't the right Art for the next moment. Sure we can deactivate / cycle a MArt during inputs like jumping or buffering a deactivation after dropping shield, but the best times we're able to cycle / deactivate MArts or HArts imo is during the hitstun / flinching state & the landing lag state. However, there's a lot of times we can't deactivate an Art such as hitlag, clangs aka clashes between hitboxes, during any our attacks, many more things.

Real talk: If Shulk could cycle / deactivate an Art during a grab / pummeling, then mashing B to cycle to Smash / DSmash / HSmash after connecting a grab would be terrifying.
 
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Sha-Shulk

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If Shulk could cycle arts whenever, it'd be harder to not accidentally perform a special move, right?
 

Scieric

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Only his neutral special could be used during grab situations is what he's talking about. Then holding a direction wouldn't matter. You'd cycle Arts anyway. But we can't do that. :( So we will have to settle for cycling during hitstun lol.
 

Sha-Shulk

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Glad my double post was corrected.

What custom are we going to discuss now; if we are done, but don't agree, with the Arts?
 
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Scieric

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Who says we are done with the Arts? I just want to say that after a little messing around, HArts are SO good! My friend usually beats me with his Diddy, but with Hyper Arts, I 3-stocked him! Definitely making the switch. (Look at me skipping right over Decisive) I now use a 3123 set, one of our apparent preferentials! I am adjusting to the meta! :awesome: :4shulk:But if we ARE done discussing the Arts, then we've covered Air Slashes, covered Back Slashes, so the only one left is Visions left. But that one is (almost) uncontested! @ Masonomace Masonomace
 
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Sha-Shulk

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We've covered all those other ones?

What's the best AS?
What's the best BS? (is there one? or do they all *cough* suck?)

I think PV is the best down-custom.
I could see Dash Vision as being preferred, and definitely a must in some sets.
 

Masonomace

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I'm definitely okay with cycling during hitstun. It's an amazing option to have.:shades:
What custom are we going to discuss now; if we are done, but don't agree, with the Arts?
That depends if everyone agrees to move on past the discussion that is DArts & move onto HArts. HArts has been barely discussed in this thread but most of the users that posted in this chat are more-less okay / glad to be using DArts. Before we move on from DArts to HArts, would you guys like to add on anything else about the DArts in regards to the current sets?

@Goesasu @ erico9001 erico9001 @Nammy12 @ S.F.L.R_9 S.F.L.R_9 @Scarhi @mario123007 @ Berserker. Berserker. @DeMo @Nerdicon @ Zethoro Zethoro @FreedomTP @ Maple42 Maple42 @Plain Yogurt @ kenniky kenniky @ Sha-Shulk Sha-Shulk @Piford @ Super Smash Fanatic Super Smash Fanatic @SiLeNtDo0m @ Jerm Jerm @meleebrawler @Lancelot @Raijinken @kesterstudios @FOcast @Sol0ke @Lord Xanthan @Ventus Alpha @Locke 06 @ChronoPenguin @HunterNinjaReaperPirate @Splash Damage @John12346 @DavemanCozy @Mmeaninglessnamee @Agent Emerald @MonadBro @ Scieric Scieric @The_Goofyborn
Who says we are done with the Arts? I just want to say that after a little messing around, HArts are SO good! My friend usually beats me with his Diddy, but with Hyper Arts, I 3-stocked him! Definitely making the switch. (Look at me skipping right over Decisive) I now use a 3123 set, one of our apparent preferentials! I am adjusting to the meta! :awesome: :4shulk:
I dig it. Glad to hear you like the HArts.:shades: I'd be content with discussing HArts with our current sets after DArts.
But if we ARE done discussing the Arts, then we've covered Air Slashes, covered Back Slashes, so the only one left is Visions left. But that one is (almost) uncontested! @ Masonomace Masonomace
You're right with the (almost) said.:p
Look at this question asked by @TWILTHERO in the Q & A thread & the the answer I replied:
2) With Power Vision, does the opponent not slowdown if they hit Shulk's counter with a projectile? I've had opponents that were able to roll around the counter hit if they activate with a projectile.
2). Most projectiles do not force the user who casted / threw / fired the projectile to be slowed down. This applies to all Visions, not just Power Vision.
A character that possesses any projectiles could easily bait our Vision or Power Vision counterattack Forwarded or regular. We would neither have enough time nor frame advantage to hit because our distorted slow-down effect won't affect them. So back the the (almost) remark, you're right if you were thinking what I was thinking about Dash Vision being ideal for punishing projectile zoning.:shades:

If we forgot, I'll refresh our memory that DV's regular counterattack reaches farther than Vision & Power Vision, as well as the Forwarded attack having longer reaching than Vision's & Power VIsion's AND Dash Vision is a faster hit capable of punishing much more often.
 
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S.F.L.R_9

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Well I've been messing around with Darts lately and I'm really liking them, but since I'm inexperienced with them, before we move on I just want to ask: is there anytime where we wouldn't want Darts, or is Decisive vs. standard purely preferential?
 

kenniky

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Decisive Arts? Can't say I've messed around with them much. I don't play a lot of custom matches as it is but I normally use default or Hyper Arts.

uh

Jump, Speed, Buster are cool
Shield is meh because RIP recovery
Smash is terrible

limited and differently timed MALLC and MADC make it so that if you want to use those techniques you have to spend a lot of time relearning something you'll pull off maybe 6 times a game as opposed to 6 times in half a minute for default and hyper arts. Not so good.

Decisive Arts are all about commitment, once you choose an art you have to stay there. You could have gotten your opponent to 170% in DBuster but if you're only halfway through you're going to have to work that much harder to get the kill, and then your hits are unsafe for the first percents of the next stock. Stuff like that.

You can stay always mobile in DArts though with just DSpeed and DJump because of the refresh time. That's cool I guess.

IMO DArts are the worst of the three, but they're Monado Arts so they're not bad.
Well I've been messing around with Darts lately and I'm really liking them, but since I'm inexperienced with them, before we move on I just want to ask: is there anytime where we wouldn't want Darts, or is Decisive vs. standard purely preferential?
In DArts MALLC and MADC are harder to do and less frequent. If you're really good at optimizing Buster DArts might not be that great because if you get them to higher percents faster they're still harder to kill because of the knockback nerfs.

DShield might be a good pick in a MU where the character has a bad grab (Ganon, Robin) so they can't throw you offstage as easily. Throws are like Shield's worst enemy but if you don't get thrown you're basically home free.



DArts seems like a beginner's customs really. Default and Hyper I think will eventually get the most usage and mileage because of their inherent advantages over DArts.
 
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Scieric

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Yay! Someone agrees with me! But seriously, what`s next?
 
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Jerm

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I'm definitely okay with cycling during hitstun. It's an amazing option to have.:shades:

That depends if everyone agrees to move on past the discussion that is DArts & move onto HArts. HArts has been barely discussed in this thread but most of the users that posted in this chat are more-less okay / glad to be using DArts. Before we move on from DArts to HArts, would you guys like to add on anything else about the DArts in regards to the current sets?

@Goesasu @ erico9001 erico9001 @Nammy12 @ S.F.L.R_9 S.F.L.R_9 @Scarhi @mario123007 @ Berserker. Berserker. @DeMo @Nerdicon @ Zethoro Zethoro @FreedomTP @ Maple42 Maple42 @Plain Yogurt @ kenniky kenniky @ Sha-Shulk Sha-Shulk @Piford @ Super Smash Fanatic Super Smash Fanatic @SiLeNtDo0m @ Jerm Jerm @meleebrawler @Lancelot @Raijinken @kesterstudios @FOcast @Sol0ke @Lord Xanthan @Ventus Alpha @Locke 06 @ChronoPenguin @HunterNinjaReaperPirate @Splash Damage @John12346 @DavemanCozy @Mmeaninglessnamee @Agent Emerald @MonadBro @ Scieric Scieric @The_Goofyborn

I dig it. Glad to hear you like the HArts.:shades: I'd be content with discussing HArts with our current sets after DArts.

You're right with the (almost) said.:p
Look at this question asked by @TWILTHERO in the Q & A thread & the the answer I replied:


A character that possesses any projectiles could easily bait our Vision or Power Vision counterattack Forwarded or regular. We would neither have enough time nor frame advantage to hit because our distorted slow-down effect would affect them. So back the the (almost) remark, you're right if you were thinking what I was thinking about Dash Vision being ideal for punishing projectile zoning.:shades:

If we forgot, I'll refresh our memory that DV's regular counterattack reaches farther than Vision & Power Vision, as well as the Forwarded attack having longer reaching than Vision's & Power VIsion's AND Dash Vision is a faster hit capable of punishing much more often.
Well according to @ erico9001 erico9001 decisive buster does not receive extra damage but deals silly damage which I think is super dope if true! Decisive shield with AAS is silly, ultimate tank. Only problem I have with Darts is Smash. Kinda sucky when you take their stock with smash then they come back down and you are in a predicament. Other than that all the Darts bar smash are really good!
 

Sha-Shulk

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DShield + AAS is fantastic! The damage reduction and hitstun reduction + AAS's horizontal recovery is a great combination.
 
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I've been messing around with Decisive Arts too with 2123 and while I think I still prefer the Default Arts only because I love using MALLC too much, they're still really good and I think I prefer them over Hyper.

D. Buster's damage racking becomes hilariously amazing; Shulk's damage taken/knockback done to the opponent don't really get nerfed much if at all, so I really like using it at the very start of the match. Getting an easy 19% damage with Bthrow feels nice and of course making good reads with Shulk's Smash attacks is very rewarding. Decisive Speed I should be using more. It's regular Monado Speed which is Shulk's best art IMO, except it lasts even longer. I used to think Decisive Shield is a bad idea and never to do it, but after actually trying it for a bit, it's not that bad. Shulk takes even less knockback in that mode and with Advancing Air Slash (another great custom I've been using too; so much fun though I miss being able to do ledgetrump > Air Slash without dying lol), horizontal recovery isn't that big of a deal. I play really defensively in this mode (like you're supposed to I guess lol) and power shielding's really good here too.

Decisive Smash...well, I actually made someone pretty salty about customs Shulk last night thanks to it lol. Being able to kill really early with a D/BThrow (I KO'd Mewtwo with BThrow at like 60-70%~ with rage, though they made have had bad DI) without a short time period that Hyper has is amazing, but once they respawn, you kinda have to play really defensively and run until Decisive Smash runs out. I never really had an opponent take advantage of this, but it's still something to be careful about. Great custom though now that I'm exploring with it more. I wish it didn't take so long for an art to "activate", but ehh...
 
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Zethoro

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I'm kind of dissapointed to not see a single set with BSC, but I can understand it, and as long as 2113 is an option I don't have a big problem with it.
I'm glad to see DArts are getting some love around here though, it's very helpful to not have your arts stalled out in a lot of situations.
 

Sha-Shulk

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I think every custom deserves to be in a set.

Priority goes to the Arts, (like a 1*** 2*** 3*** collection of sets)
then Vision and Air Slashes

The Back Slashes are definitely preferred.
 
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Maple42

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I think we've talked about each custom extensively, so rather than further analyzing them by themselves, perhaps we could focus on the sets? I believe the first three "mandatory" sets were 1113, 2113, and 3113. After that, we could find correlations between them; for example, do we want Advancing Air Slash on all the Decisive Art sets? Or on any of the normal Monado Art sets? In what match-ups are Hyper Arts applicable? Do we want Dash Vision on normal Monado or Hyper Arts?
 

Scieric

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Well according to @ erico9001 erico9001 decisive buster does not receive extra damage but deals silly damage which I think is super dope if true! Decisive shield with AAS is silly, ultimate tank. Only problem I have with Darts is Smash. Kinda sucky when you take their stock with smash then they come back down and you are in a predicament. Other than that all the Darts bar smash are really good!
About the Decisive Buster though, you never want to be in Buster if you are at a disadvandage. With Decisive Buster you have to keep the advantage for almost 20 seconds without any mobility upgrades (And is it just me, or is your aerial mobility nerfed in Buster?) or you will wished you hadn't used it. And the Decisive Smash point I agree on. DSheild with AAS is absolutely ********, but I have had my moments in testing that I have been hit by a move like :4falcon: dtilt and i couldn't recover. Basically, semi-spikes. DArts provides the factually best Arts stat-wise, but the fact that you are basically stuck in it for 20 seconds without any option of switching to a better one for the moment makes me not a fan.
I think we've talked about each custom extensively, so rather than further analyzing them by themselves, perhaps we could focus on the sets? I believe the first three "mandatory" sets were 1113, 2113, and 3113. After that, we could find correlations between them; for example, do we want Advancing Air Slash on all the Decisive Art sets? Or on any of the normal Monado Art sets? In what match-ups are Hyper Arts applicable? Do we want Dash Vision on normal Monado or Hyper Arts?
I personally think that AAS should go with the DArts just because of that silliness. With the Standar Arts, I also enjoy AAS because of its on-stage utility and platform cancelling on BF, and stages with platforms that are accessible, but on a stage like FD, with no platform cancelling, I would go with the standard AS for that extra height in recovery. The same reasoning goes to the Hyper Arts, but on those, I am leaning closer to regular AS. Simply because the match is going to be progressing so quickly, the extra speed will be impossible to contain and control, also I can't tell you how many times I've gone off stage with Hyper Speed and the little bit of extra height would've saved me, and it will even still link in Hyper Jump! Don't ask me why, but it works. About AAS+HArts, on BF, you can actually get the second slash out and then cancel through the platform instead of just dropping through it. It can really screw with platform campers. So basically we have

1113
1123
2123
3113
3123

Then we need to consider the other Back Slashes! What's our limit again? Because we may need to make a few cuts to the list, even though all the sets are vialbe in their own way.

EDIT: @ erico9001 erico9001 has this chat been abandoned or something? I haven't seen any replies for days. Is it just my computer glitching out or something or are there actually no new replies?
 
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erico9001

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About the Decisive Buster though, you never want to be in Buster if you are at a disadvandage. With Decisive Buster you have to keep the advantage for almost 20 seconds without any mobility upgrades (And is it just me, or is your aerial mobility nerfed in Buster?) or you will wished you hadn't used it. And the Decisive Smash point I agree on. DSheild with AAS is absolutely ********, but I have had my moments in testing that I have been hit by a move like :4falcon: dtilt and i couldn't recover. Basically, semi-spikes. DArts provides the factually best Arts stat-wise, but the fact that you are basically stuck in it for 20 seconds without any option of switching to a better one for the moment makes me not a fan.

I personally think that AAS should go with the DArts just because of that silliness. With the Standar Arts, I also enjoy AAS because of its on-stage utility and platform cancelling on BF, and stages with platforms that are accessible, but on a stage like FD, with no platform cancelling, I would go with the standard AS for that extra height in recovery. The same reasoning goes to the Hyper Arts, but on those, I am leaning closer to regular AS. Simply because the match is going to be progressing so quickly, the extra speed will be impossible to contain and control, also I can't tell you how many times I've gone off stage with Hyper Speed and the little bit of extra height would've saved me, and it will even still link in Hyper Jump! Don't ask me why, but it works. About AAS+HArts, on BF, you can actually get the second slash out and then cancel through the platform instead of just dropping through it. It can really screw with platform campers. So basically we have

1113
1123
2123
3113
3123

Then we need to consider the other Back Slashes! What's our limit again? Because we may need to make a few cuts to the list, even though all the sets are vialbe in their own way.

EDIT: @ erico9001 erico9001 has this chat been abandoned or something? I haven't seen any replies for days. Is it just my computer glitching out or something or are there actually no new replies?
haha well I've just been playing Splatoon, splatting booty and all.

Well, Decisive Buster does not reduce mobility.-
For being at a disadvantaged state while in Buster, it really matters what kind of disadvantage. Being at a disadvantage in the amount of damage you have dealt so far is something Buster excels at. However, compared to Speed and Jump, Buster is worse when at the state of being above somebody. Still, it's very extreme to say that you can never be in Buster while in a disadvantaged state.

AAS will die with earlier percents from a spike; accordingly, it is harder to spike somebody who is using AAS. It seems odd to me that Falcon's D-tilt could kill you. I would think you would either have to be at really high percents so sent near the blast zone or did not use a second jump (maybe had already been used or whatever).

1113
1123
2123
3113
3123

These 5 look great to me. 2113 was not really necessary, I think. Now if I were to add 3 more...

1122
2122
1133


And the final 2 (hopefully only evo decides to do the 10 customs instead of 8, though...)

3122

xxxx

I do not know what belongs in the final spot. For one, any set with back slash leap could go there. Also, 2322 could work. There are plenty of others...

Thankfully, the final two slots are not nearly as important as the first 8. Most tournaments should not be restricting customs to a preset 10, but allowing 2 slots for individual player preferences to be imported pre-game.

EDIT: Advancing Air Slash actually does 14 damage rather than Regular Air Slash's 11.5 damage. That's more of a difference than I thought! That's actually significant.
 
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Scieric

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I don't have Splatoon yet. :( Anyway, why would you even dream of putting MAS in a set? The people who understand the meta and are good should realize that it is out classed and not want to use it. I should know. I was once a MAS user, but no longer. As for the last Sat, we should probably think about doubles. So 2322 is a good choice. I feel like it is the best doubles set. So we could go with that one.
Oh, and if you like Splatoon, you should check this out. squidboards.com
 
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Personally I use 3223 and 2123 Shulk and 2322 for doubles (3223 more though) , I absolutely ADORE all of :4shulk:'s custom moves with the exception of Mighty AirSlash and Dash Vision (although I use Dash Vision for custom :4villagerf: and doubles only) , I know Mighty AirSlash has it's uses I really don't like how it sends you up vertically but this is just me , I believe :4shulk:'s customs (or even customs in general with the exception of a few) are a matter of preference and should suit player's playstyles for example the difference between the Regular AirSlash and Advancing AirSlash is sacrificing vertical recovery for some horizontal recovery and some extra % and knockback isn't a HUGE deal and should be a matter of preferences , you might like edgeguarding deep down in which case you might like the Regular AirSlash more but in some cases you (like me) might like Advancing AirSlash's movement and uses on platforms in which case that might suit you better , except for some customs like Power Vision which is a flat-out upgrade of Regular Vision with absurd knockback although Dash Vision might be better in some matchups , generally against zoners like :4villagerf: and :4megaman:, and as for the Monado Arts I do not believe any is better than the other , Decisive Monado Arts is for those who prefer staying in one art for longer at the sacrifice of the ability to switch or excessively MALLC and in my experience suits more patient play while Hyper Monado Arts take you to the extreme in every situation at the risk of losing time in a Monado Art and taking more time to recharge and from what I've seen and played with suits more aggressive play while Regular Monado Arts is the balance between both and you should pick the one that suits you more and remember you can use any of these in ANY way you want , I've just said what I've seen and thought , and as for the BackSlashes (I REALLY don't like using this move) use whichever's movement you like best while remembering their weaknesses , BackSlash isn't a move you should be using much anyway but I use BackSlash Leap with Hyper Monado Arts because of Hyper Buster's shield knockback. As I've said I don't really think any of :4shulk:'s customs are superior to another (with the sole exception of Power Vision) at the moment , but I believe Hyper Monado Arts and Decisive Monado Arts suit me and I believe in some potential with Hyper Monado Arts and this is why I continue to use them but in the end you should pick whatever suits you and your playstyle and you feel comfortable with.
 
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Sha-Shulk

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....but in the end you should pick whatever suits you and your playstyle and you feel comfortable with.
Well said. I think that one should identify the customs that work well with the playstyle. For me, I never use MALLC, so I love DArts. Do I still wish, in some circumstances, that I could switch out of my art? Yes. (definitely the non-final stock in DSmash.)
But DArts works the best with my playstyle, and AAS compliments it very well. I hardly use Vision, so a more powerful version with more "cooldown" isn't that much of a trade-off for me.

Just pick what you like, and learn how to use it well.
 

Ze Dewott

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I'm a user of 3113. HArts with Speed and Buster is so combo-heavy and easier to get kills with for me, plus Power Vision is an instant tide-turner in battle. If I'm not using that, it's probably 1113, 2122, or 1222 (although not that much on that one.).
 

Super Smash Fanatic

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So I'm going to try make a list of sets and I'm happy to take edits and suggestions from anyone.
Firstly I agree about the five done by Erico:
1113
1123
2123
3113
3123
Although I think that 2113 is necessary and dash vision only needs 1 set with mighty getting zero sets.
1122
2113
1223
Finally let's make the final two just more leap sets
2223
3223
 

Masonomace

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and dash vision only needs 1 set with mighty getting zero sets.
I'm ultimately fine with at least one set having Dash Vision, but honestly I feel Dash Vision should get to be in at least another set. We've figured out recently that Dash Vision has better KO potential than even the regular Vision, so the only thing that Vision has over Dash Vision now is just Vision having a longer counter window & Dash Vision's counter window regenerates the quickest of the 3.

I feel that we can warrant 8 sets with PV & 2 sets with DV. That's my opinion atm.
 
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Super Smash Fanatic

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Alright then, being that hyper has the least amount of love from what i can tell let's scrap the hyper and leap set for a 2122
 

Masonomace

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Mmm, I'm not too sure of that, but I do like the thought of some Hyper Arts & BSL in there. Currently the sets in the OP are okay but now after some thought, the sets I would want are basically the same as as others suggest. My favorite set being 2222 is usually what I roll most of the time regardless of the MU but anyways. .

About MAS, I just don't know about it's synergy with the Arts DArts or HArts & which kind of Arts do best with MAS. HJump + MAS is just the most godlike vertical recovery option I've ever witnessed but every other HArt described would be what we'd expect. But If we somehow got a MAS set I'd decide on 1233 to add in some BSL love.

I'm fine with the suggested 5 sets so far:
1113
1123
2123
3113
3123

Sets I'd like to see:
1233
2322
3233
1122

Dunno what the last set could be.
 
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Super Smash Fanatic

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Looking at the all 2 set and it's seems pretty good, but i don't know if i'd personally use it as I always go for power vision. Furthermore we both agree on 1122 and 1233 so I think those sets should get some discussion by others and possibly be added to the list. Still not to sure on Mighty air slash personally but I already got the sets I wanted, so I'm down with pretty much everything.
 

kenniky

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What is Mighty Air Slash even used for? I guess we could use it against floaty characters like Jiggly that can't get hit by both hits of regular Air Slash, the added recovery would be nice. The only major downside is the range but if we're not really going to use Air Slash to kill because too light then why bother.
 
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What is Mighty Air Slash even used for? I guess we could use it against floaty characters like Jiggly that can't get hit by both hits of regular Air Slash, the added recovery would be nice. The only major downside is the range but if we're not really going to use Air Slash to kill because too light then why bother.
I like mighty air slash's damage output. With buster/hyper buster art, its damage output is on par with buster/hyper buster f-smash. Oh, it also KO's vertically. Its KO power improves with smash art activated so there's that. Mighty air slash has its uses in certain stages with short vertical boundaries like Halberd, Delfino and Lylat.

Basically, MAS's best use is as a close ranged OoS option. It's still frame 10 but the range is significantly shorter than default and advancing air slash. Timing the second hit of MAS is also tricky btw

You can't really combo into MAS. Well, it's not that you can't. It's just really difficult.

My 0.1 cents
 

S.F.L.R_9

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Kenniky's suggestion is interesting. Jiggly falls out of Air Slash sooo much at kill percents to the point where it's not a reliable kill move against her. Since she also has very little range, MAS's reduced range doesn't really matter in this matchup and it'd be a good move OOS. Based off of some quick testing, MAS has more range than all of her aerials and most of her ground moves. The only moves it doesn't outrange are fsmash and Pound, which are unsafe on shield even if she hits at max range with them so you'll be able to drop your shield, run, and MAS before she can shield.

So yea I think MAS might actually be the best AS for this MU. Maybe there's other characters that have most of their moves outranged by MAS. If so then MAS is actually kinda useful
 
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erico9001

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Kenniky's suggestion is interesting. Jiggly falls out of Air Slash sooo much at kill percents to the point where it's not a reliable kill move against her. Since she also has very little range, MAS's reduced range doesn't really matter in this matchup and it'd be a good move OOS. Based off of some quick testing, MAS has more range than all of her aerials and most of her ground moves. The only moves it doesn't outrange are fsmash and Pound, which are unsafe on shield even if she hits at max range with them so you'll be able to drop your shield, run, and MAS before she can shield.

So yea I think MAS might actually be the best AS for this MU. Maybe there's other characters that have most of their moves outranged by MAS. If so then MAS is actually kinda useful
One question is when Jigglypuff starts getting hit OUT of Mighty Air Slash's combo, remembering of course, it's your own rage that is making all the difference, not the opponent's damage. Advancing Air Slash also connects together on Jigglypuff, so I wonder which one lasts the longer.

I'm not sure if MAS is a better attacking move vs Jigglypuff, really. Her in and out swerves could make things tricky with the lack of range. I imagine her baiting you to use MAS by going in and swerving back. Advancing Air Slash, on the other hand, stresses Jigglypuff with both the first and the second strike, making such a strategy much riskier indeed.

Recovery-wise, I worry about Jigglypuff being able to stage spike MAS. With no horizontal movement, you will be recovering from almost the same point every single time. That is unless you use the lip, but the lip doesn't necessarily save you from a stage spike...

An advantage AAS has with the Jigglypuff MU is it can be used any time while off-stage, so long as you can recover. If she's intending to follow you off the stage and hit you with an attack, you can use AAS right away to get her away from you.

Lastly, if you do whiff MAS against Jigglypuff, it's a guaranteed Rest for her, since you fall like a slow rock to almost the same point you first used the move. Regular Air Slash has similar issues too. Tbh, I don't think either of them should be used as an attacking move vs Jigglypuff, even if Regular Air Slash did connect from the ground. AAS can be used, however. With your drift speed not being nerfed, you can avoid being hit by rest.
 

Masonomace

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DISCLAIMER: TL;DR
I could do some stuff with MAS involving Jigglypuff, but I want to bring up something vital towards the successive usage of MAS & the Back Slashes real quick after having a skype call with @ erico9001 erico9001
--
Mighty Air Slash Tip
I feel that most of us play with AS or AAS, so we're very accustomed to delaying the 2nd hit for horizontal gain which is especially important for the DShield + AAS combination. BUT, this is completely different for MAS. The secret to recovering horizontally with MAS is the opposite to what you'd do with AS or AAS; you simply mash the B button for both hits of MAS while holding the control stick towards the ledge, or instead for the 2nd hit you'd:
  • Press :GCA:
  • Tap :GCZ:
  • Flick the :GCCN: in any direction: :GCCU::GCCUR::GCCR::GCCDR::GCCD::GCCDL::GCCL::GCCUL:
Any of those button inputs above are fine to use for the 2nd hit of AS AAS & MAS. If you wonder why you'd be pressing the A Z or C-stick buttons see this quote from the AT's thread:
Air Slash Recovering Horizontally

How to perform it:
(Recovering Left):GCU::GCB:» Immediately Tap & Hold :GCL:» Delay Pressing :GCB:/:GCA:/:GCCN:/:GCZ:
(Recovering Right):GCU::GCB:» Immediately Tap & Hold :GCR:» Delay Pressing :GCB:/:GCA:/:GCCN:/:GCZ:

Applications: Optimizing our recovery with Air Slash is vital & very helpful. Times you're launched out too far & need to inch closer horizontally with the 2nd hit of Air Slash is key for surviving longer. For a visual signal of when it's safe inputting the 2nd hit of Air Slash after enough time delaying it, watch the red Beam disappearing from the Monado as it's swung behind Shulk. Right as you see that happening, input the 2nd slash while holding toward the direction you're moving towards to maximize the horizontal distance of the Air Slash. This helpful tactic is further improved by the Jump & Speed Arts because of their respected increased mobility stats, & as you'd figure the Shield Art makes this worse, delaying the 2nd hit of Air Slash with Shield active can still save your stock because delaying the 2nd slash to move forward or backward in most cases is always better than not delaying it at all.

*Note* Whenever you're performing an Air Slash & per-say you get hit in the midst of the delayed 2nd hit of Air Slash by an attack near the ledge, then pressing the B button again while holding forward would input as Back Slash which is a huge no-no. Instead of pressing B, conditioning yourself by pressing the A button or flicking the C-stick would input as a F-air. And pressing the Z button inputs as Airdodge, which finishes quicker than F-air. Perhaps maybe players would think it's good to input Air Slash normally & instead press Z for the 2nd slash in hopes to avoid inputting a move that could be a dangerous risk to do.
So back to MAS, you recover greater horizontal distance by inputting the move quicker essentially making MAS "easy-mode" in this manner. Not only do you gain a great amount of vertical height from both hits of MAS, but the mashing allows better horizontal drifting after both hits of MAS full finish & you're free-falling in the special-fall state. It's quite helpful.

Now something I recently figured out upon messing around with MAS is when you're inputting MAS with :GCU:+:GCB:, you'll want to flick the :GCCN: to the :GCCL: or :GCCR: while holding :GCU: so that you stay going straight up while shifting forward during the 2nd hit. It doesn't appear to look any different but you do get a better horizontal recovering result. Still, the most optimized way that @ erico9001 erico9001 & I figured out is to mash :GCB: for both hits, or pressing :GCA: / :GCZ: / :GCCN: for the 2nd hit while holding :GCL: / :GCR: in order to greatly recover better for both vertical & horizontal.

I will say that after doing more messing around with it via 1/4 (Hold L) setting in Training Mode, Shulk goes higher if you very slightly delay the 2nd hit so that he reaches his 1st hit's apex. I hope this information helps MAS get on some sets but I didn't even discuss about the damage / KO potential.:p


My Back Slash Realizations
Currently in the OP, we see Back Slash in most of our sets & Back Slash Leap in only a couple of them. At first we had good reasons not to include BSC in a single set, then we discussed about it being good in theory with some provided examples of it's potential, then we decided against putting it in any sets except one at max. But now I feel that we should at least be in favor to change that. Recently with the discussion relating to the sets we'd like, it's been going well but the Back Slashes are rarely mentioned yet again with reasoning to why that is -- Back Slash doesn't define the set. We say that the Back Slash variant doesn't define the set unlike the Monado Arts Air Slashes or Vision variants do, but perhaps we could give more insight & notice to the Back Slashes so that they help solidify a set like icing on a cake.

Back Slashes basically have 3 hitbox categories aka phases in order:
  1. Startup
  2. Falling
  3. Landing.
If you've checked the frame data pastebin for the Back Slashes, you'll notice that Back Slash has a bunch of outcomes in the Startup category, & Back Slash Charge having many outcomes in the Landing category. .That's nice & all, but don't pay too much mind to it because we're focusing on what really matters -- the best part of each Back Slash variant (IMO). Let's go over each one:

Back Slash, The Well-Rounded Falling of Doom
The regular BS is a well-rounded move primarily used as a mixup tool, capable of destruction with a couple of good reads. Like I said, the Startup, Falling, & Landing hitbox portions are all well-rounded in that connecting with either one of the 3 is fine & dandy especially the airborne Falling portion.;) Because BS has a good spread of damages & knockback & it's properties of the move itself is a treat. The endlag is the least of the 3 on top of this move getting a bit of a advancing jump to hop over linear projectiles that are kind of off the ground. Notable mentions of Back Slash are always welcomed & favored as a follow-up from B-throw, & stage spiking with Back Slash as means of sacrificing a stock can net a hype KO if they don't tech. Not much else to say, but I will say that out of the most isntances we'll get any phase of BS, it will most likely be the Falling or Startup hitbox. I'll list what I think we should focus on for BS going in order of importance & priority:
  1. All 3:p. .Okay fine I'll do alphabet letters:
    a. Falling
    b. Startup
    c. Landing
"Why isn't the Startup ranked higher than Falling?", you may be asking. Like I said, all 3 phases of BS are good in their own way, but the falling hitbox would be the most important because this is what we aim for the most, not to mention that using the Startup in a regular situation especially Neutral is unsafe & will be most likely punished without mercy. "But that can be said for all the Back Slashes.", yes that it can, but right now, BS has the least endlag of the 3 variants, so why focus on the beginning of the move when we want BS to go as smoothly as we can to avoid whatever punish we may receive? Because hitlag on top of out of shield reactions from the opponent give them much more time to punish our move rather than utilizing the Falling hit to at least deal decent damage on shield & shield knockback while suffering a bit of hitlag much later than early. This all factors in & I'd rather take hitlag later than having my opponent watch a Back Slash done early close by shielded in response. BS can be used for roll reads as well, & the Falling hitbox is much more likely to connect that the Starrtup or Landing hitbox. Although, if you want to get technical about the maximum damage you can deal on shield, the Landing hitbox of BS deals more shield damage because the Landing hitbox phase deals the most additional shield damage, a whopping (+10) for every BS variant, whereas the Startup & Falling hitbox phases are only (+7). However, actually trying to perform only the Landing hitbox phase on an opponent is not easy & is IMO the hardest hitbox phase to connect with BS. Nonetheless I wish you good luck mastering all hitbox phases of BS.

Back Slash Leap, The Landing Terror
The custom BSL is essentially a closer-quarreling higher jumping punish in reaction to avoiding a larger projectile, mistake or a committed action from the opponent regardless of their position. Yes, I'm even talking about off-stage, any Back Slash off-stage is hype! BSL basically skips the Startup hitbox phase since you're less likely to hit someone in most cases, & shifts to the Falling & Landing hitbox faster than the regular BS, but the trade-offs are that BSL's Startup Damages are the worst of the 3 Back Slashes, BSL's Startup is the worst between its 3 hitbox categories, & BSL has longer endlag. Having any commitment to using this move can be more dangerous to Shulk as he's very punishable during this. While the Falling hitbox is great alike to the regular Back Slash, the distance Back Slash Leap travels forward is the least out of the 3 & you may still whiff someone in mid-air especially if they're drifting away from you even if you get the airdodge read. I'll list what we should focus on for BSL going in order of importance & priority:
  1. The Landing
  2. The Falling
  3. The Startup
Most of all, the greatest aspect of BSL I feel is the Landing hitbox portion & here's my broken record reasoning why:
  • Back Slash Leap performed from the stage floor underneath a platform on more than several legal stages results in BSL's Landing hitbox occurring even sooner because of the platform's height being just high / low enough for Shulk to land on it quicker on top of BSL being a few frames faster on the Startup than BS. You make BSL that much better of a move when you involve the move's placement on platforms or any stage formations that favor the apex height of BSL to compensate for the longer endlag. The key thing here is you don't have to be grounded to land on a platform above you. If need be, you can always SH or FH up to reach a platform if it means landing on it to still reach for the legendary 18%(+10).

  • A Buster Art active while performing the BSL platform strategy closer to the platform's edge can cause Shulk to physically slide off the platform, making Shulk "safer". He still takes the entire endlag but he is off of the platform nonetheless. If you happened to break their shield in the process, then congrats to your tons of damage following the way.;) If not, then it does put a damper on things now that the opponent knows of the strategy & won't be as careless, but you weakened their shield very low so they won't be as reliant on it for a bit. The Landing hitboxes for all 3 Back Slashes deal more additional damage than any other hitbox phase, & because BSL deals the most damage being 18%(+10), it's no wonder why a Buster Art especially HBuster makes the Landing hit on the backside of their shield so deadly.

  • Despite that the Startup IMO is the worst phase of the 3 since it has the worst damages between the 3 BS variants, outside of using platforms to your advantage you'd never likely hit someone with the Startup because you start in the air higher than Ganondorf standing tall, & lastly it's a very short active frame window. After the active frames of Startup finishes & you're not too close by to the opponent upon rising up during BSL's Startup, the usage of platforms automatically skips the Falling hitbox phase going straight to the Landing phase. That's fantastic when you really think about it. The higher that the platform is off the ground enough for BSL to land on it, the quicker BSL's Landing hitbox will occur.

Back Slash Charge, The Unyielding Startup
The custom BSC is an odd move & is wondered if it's even good. My answer deep down is mixed for this move, but we as well as I know that BSC's damages are very petty, the knockback is less-than-impressive, & the endlag afterwards is just atrocious to the point we question why we'd even use this move, so why? Why would we truly roll with this custom in a Singles format other than it's ability to intervene in Doubles? One word: Startup. Out of the 3 Back Slashes, BSC takes the award for having the worst Falling hitbox phase despite the great distance & reach. Players who enjoy using BS will usually utilize it for the regular Falling hitbox, so in that regard it's understandable why Back Slash fans dislike BSC when it's Falling & Landing phases are underwhelming. But worry not, for we shouldn't look at a Back Slash for just one phase let alone the Falling phase of BSC -- it's terrible albeit the distance traveled is something else.:shades: I'll list what we should focus on for BSC going in order of importance & priority:
  1. The Startup
  2. The Landing
  3. The Falling
TBH I think that the Landing & Falling phases can be on the same level of importance but they're both eh regardless. One factor aspect about this move that we widely know about is also the Super Armor. It starts on Frame 1 & ends on Frame 31. Back Slash Charge's Startup hitbox hits on Frame 31 & ends on Frame 32. "So how is the Startup ranked #1 even with Super Armor?" -- The Super Armor allows us to trade taking damage for dealing the ideal back-hitting 15% damage that we'd want from that moment. However, we can also utilize the amazingness that is Frame 1 Super Armor for times we're being juggled / combo'd to the sides. As long as we're not too far off from the stage's floor to come back to, & the height / angle that you're launched isn't too low, BSC has the pseudo-horizontal potential to make it back to the stage whenever we're in that dire situation on the verge of losing our stock. We'd only suffer BSC's endlag for the price to land on the stage thus living longer. When it comes down to Shulk getting juggled / combo'd, it's quite struggling & tough to deal with those moments due to Shulk having poor frame data & -- let me stop there. BSC is Frame 1. . .that's a solution right? "But that will get repetitive & the opponent will keep their mind open to the fact that we could BSC at anytime in a panic moment." -- That's good. Making the opponent aware that we have an option for that dire situation lets them know we have SOMETHING to combat one of Shulk's struggling problems. You're using a Shield Art? Great, the hitstun reduction you gain from the reduced knockback taken allows you to input other options like doublejumping away, Vision countering, AAS, or airdodging, but add BSC to the mix & now you're a tank who takes reduced damage & Super Armors through a moment for up to 30 frames. Since Jump Seed & Shield Arts do not affect the jump height, air speed, or generally the distance BSC travels, it makes that much more sense to use it with a Shield Art recovering -- or at the least promotes the suggestion that it could come in handy once or twice in mixing up how you recover. Using a Smash Art? Great, that compensates for BSC's petty knockback but not until later percents where you have some kind of Rage Effect to add onto your knockback. Damage output is even worse unless you get the sweet sweet back hitting Startup, & that has moderately nice KO power.

Bottom line is, yes the endlag is the worst of the 3 Back Slash variants, & yes the move deals the least damage, but this move gives us an opportunity to utilize an option starting with SA on Frame 1 no less -- Let's use it more & see just how much less we get combo'd with this on shall we?

Also, I don't recommend just doing this whenever you feel like you need to GTFO at anytime especially from airborne juggles / combos. Although, a character with slow running speed, average air speed for drifting for the chase, or any fast options to close the gap quick enough that they lack could make BSC that much better for the occasion.

The Landing hitbox phase is interesting to say the least. As I've said earlier, the Landing phase deals the most additional shield damage (+10), & it can do well with BSC if you get the right hit. There's one hitbox moment Shulk lands on the ground upon impact & then there's an additional hitbox moment that stays out for a brief part of the sliding. Just don't get used to thinking the entire slide is a hitbox though, because only the Blade portion of the second portion of the Landing phase is hitbox-worthy (It's confusing yes I know. . .:(). Otherwise, the first initial Landing hitbox is all of the Monado including the Beam. It still doesn't justify the horrendous endlag though. And despite that BSC has great horizontal distance, the Falling hitbox is very eh as I've mentioned earlier, but it is great range to get that back hit you're reaching for.
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
That's about all I have for thoughts. Oh wait. .so about sets. I've said that BSL is great on platforms for several reasons, so if we have AAS for the platform-drop-through strategy, then why not have some X22X sets for counterpicking / playing stages with platforms?

Stages that can be successful with BSL + AAS:
  • Battlefield
  • Delfino Plaza
  • Kongo Jungle 64
  • Skyloft
  • Halberd
  • Lylat Cruise
  • Castle Siege (Transitions 1 & 2)
  • Town & City
  • Smashville
  • Duck Hunt
So yeah. Tell me about your thoughts & what you disagree with. It opens up much more to discussion that way.;)
 
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