Life is but a Moment, a Single Grain of Sand: Ness Survival Tips and Discussion

[The_NZA]

That stuff is easy on fox but against falco i havem ore trouble. Against falco i usually do

uthrow->uthrow->uthrow->djc uair->djc uair-> uthrow

I'm not sure if mine perfectly owrks but at 0 percent i think you can regrab falco 3 times.

 

[The_NZA]

I believe fox is heavier and thats why. Thanks for the exact combo gmaster. Are the nairs omsething you always have to do?

 

[GMaster171]

It works on all 3 of them, just with slight differences in timing because throws slow down due to weight (Wolf is heavier than the other two), works regardless of DI and SEEMS easy to land (but grabbing Fox/Falco may be a battle in itself). these also only work on the flat parts of stages of on FD, but because of the nature of the combo, a grab at 40-50% lets you continue the latter part of the combo anyway. I havent looked into how effective Ness is at platform chasing, but when I do, I'll post on how good/viable it is as a tactic.

I may post some on Falcon CG, as well as some mid weight people CG (like Lucas and Tink) Its interesting to note that at 0, uthrow CGs Falcon, around 30-60 nothing truly CGs him, and above 60 or 70 d-throw actually can CG on poor DI. Going for straight uair strings out of a throw results in around 80 on falcon off of grab near 0.

If going into training, set the CPU to run. it causes the CPU to actually DI due to it trying to get away from you (and therefore hold away often), its how i figured out these combos without a partner in the first place.

I may do a info topic with stuff like lowest % a character tumbles from Ness' DJC aerials, the %s where magnet combos best and the %s where bair is immune to CC. stuff like that.

what do you mean by Nairs? the first hit in each combo can be any of the ones listed, you can start the first one off of DJC uair/nair, OR grab

 

[The_NZA]

i understand now. thanks.

 

[k9.]

After seeing your vid K9, I'd agree with everyone in saying DJC will improve your game a lot. However, I do want to say, I liked watching your Ness video a lot! It taught me a lot....because so much of my game is DJC so to see a good ness do well without it means I can pay attention to the other things I need to improve in my play (like aerial pkfire accuracy). Good stuff, dude. Tell your peach friend to learn how to DI.

Thanks man, i just want us to show everyone that we can take ness to top tier.

@Spiffy Me and sinster B play so different from each other. I didn't think that you could use DJC for 75% of the things you do it's amazing! Thanks for the video. I need to start mixing some of that in my playstyle for sure. It's going to be hard but ill try.

 

[Bryonato]

DJC is hard to get used to that's for sure but you can do some really funky stuff with it.

EDIT: I'm excited to see new DJC-integrated K9 the more I think about it.

 

[The_NZA]

Here's some tips to doing DJC. Part of it is mastering the technique but knowing what button inputs will do differently helps. Just like sometimes with a character you might choose to employ cstick aerials and flip to hitting the a button in certain scenarios, the DJC can lead to different things depending on what you input. I personally use y for b, b for jump, tap jump on. I find that going b -> b -> aerial is easier for me to do sometimes than x ->x -> aerial which can sometimes if i'm being lazy cause a rising aerial.

More importantly, experiment with x/y -> up -> csticked or "a" aerial. The up to cstick/a can cause for really low instant djc.

A bread and butter: djc fair to grab.

 

[GMaster171]

Fastest way of consistantly doing DJC has been x+tap jump for me, lets me do aerials faster than any other input and almost without fail (it only doesn't work if I FF, which oddly enough goes too quick for even DJC dair to come out.) It works with every aerial, even bair if you get the timing right (although bair is better as a bait/punish aerial than an OOS one.)

I'm uploading a few vids of myself today, and will either be streaming some of my Ness or recording friendlies tomorrow. Come check them out. (will link when they are up)

 

[Bryonato]

Glad to hear it. Been wanting to see some of your famed Ness in action.

 

[GMaster171]

http://www.twitch.tv/gmaster171/old#
Streaming, wont be only Ness, but I'll get on in awhile.

 

[The_NZA]

mind sharing your setup, G?

 

[The_NZA]

Yo G,

You got a big mouth son, but I can't deny that your play is on point. You've impressed me.

Mad props.

EDIT:
like REALLY impressed me. Seriously keep it up! More videos please.

 

[Bryonato]

Were you watching the whole time? Why weren't you chatting with us? D: Anyways thanks for streaming GM it was pretty fun

 

[GMaster171]

I use a Dazzle with Amarec to capture vid/audio, then screen capture with Xsplit and stream from there. Wish it was more consistent, but we were running it on my friends laptop as my desktop refuses to use Dazzle as an audio source rofl.

Thanks, I'v been wanting to get how I play out, as I do realize I had been saying a lot but showing almost nothing. I'll probably try doing this like weekly (or as often as my friends can come over). I try to not say things I can't do or don't have proof of myself.

 

[The_NZA]

Thats' good to know. I'd like to stream some of my play, but I haven't decided on what setup I want to purchase. Any recommendations?

 

[GMaster171]

Sorry, I don't think I could give you any recommendations lol, I'm new to streaming myself, and the Dazzle isnt the best thing for it. If you just need something for streaming, it works (its fine for recording tho), but for quality I imagine there are other setups that are faster and better, though might cost more.

 

[The_NZA]

Correction: Not stream. Record. Does that change any of your advice?

 

[GMaster171]

Well in that case the Dazzle seems to work fine. its not too expensive or complex and gets videos like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvToMYSi4OI

I imagine there are still better options, but the dazzle is cheap, easy and works for what it needs to do. I have tried other round-about ways of recording but these often result in very poor quality videos, and are really last resort lol.

 

[The_NZA]

Not bad...colors are a bit washed out...are you plugged in with composite or component? Also, did you optimize the settings using this:
http://smashboards.com/threads/vlad...ies-to-any-dazzle-of-model-number-100.217934/

 

[GMaster171]

I'm plugged in with Composite cables, and no I didn't optimize the settings (everything recording that video is default settings using the software that came with the Dazzle)

I'm going to try what that guide suggest, might get a random test video of that quality later.

 

[GMaster171]

Wont be getting the video up until this weekend, the dazzle refuses to work with my computer, even when using the software that came with the dumb thing... srry.

Fun fact: If you taunt cancel to an edge, you can do instant aerials through DJC with no landing lag (edge cancelled). Been trying to impliment this into my edge guarding as it seems like it would work well on people with hard to sweet spot recoveries.

btw, if one of you can do TAS, you should try to see how fast it is technically possible to do DJC nairs on the edge, Ness might beat Wario's record.

 

[SinisterB]

i'm pretty sure ness is among the fastest for standing edge cancels, DAir is like lightning

and doing DJC on the edge is a great way to practice control

anyways back to being MIA

 

[Bryonato]

i'm pretty sure ness is among the fastest for standing edge cancels, DAir is like lightning

and doing DJC on the edge is a great way to practice control

anyways back to being MIA

LOL. Somehow I just saw this now. I've been wondering where you've been Sinister. Come back T-T

Anyways, I'm kind of confused by what you guys mean by the taunt cancel/edge cancelled DJC aerials?

 

[GMaster171]

If you taunt cancel onto an edge, you will be as far as possible without actually falling off (in the teeter animation). If you DJC dair in this spot, you will ledge cancel and have no landing lag. Its a tight window, even a small delay will cause Ness to drift back due to how his DJ works, and you will miss the edge cancel.

Technically, this should only take 11 frames (10 for nair if possible), which would be 2 frames faster than Wario's edge canceled nairs. 300 nairs in one minute should be possible, but I cant test this myself lol.

 

[Bryonato]

I just messed around with this in Training. Makes a ton more sense now. Pretty silly messing around with Nair

 

[Badge]

If you taunt cancel onto an edge, you will be as far as possible without actually falling off (in the teeter animation). If you DJC dair in this spot, you will ledge cancel and have no landing lag. Its a tight window, even a small delay will cause Ness to drift back due to how his DJ works, and you will miss the edge cancel.

Technically, this should only take 11 frames (10 for nair if possible), which would be 2 frames faster than Wario's edge canceled nairs. 300 nairs in one minute should be possible, but I cant test this myself lol.

I did a TAS NPM run with Lucas a few weeks ago using this exact technique and DJCFF NAirs for 9 frames per repitition. Ness can do the same with his DJCFF NAir, the inputs for those aren't really humanly possible though. If you'd want to try getting a NPM record, Lucas DJC FAirs on the ledge are easy (for Ness/Lucas players that is) and only one frame slower. Ness DJC ledgecancel DAirs are either slower or harder to do.

 

[GMaster171]

Humanly possible? You doubt me. I got up to 4 dairs per second myself in practice yesterday

Also odd how its 9 frames, ST said yesterday it was 10 for both characters, maybe he didn't factor in the FF lol. In your video, wouldn't Lucas still be subject to soft landing? idk exactly...

either way, Ness and Lucas hold the record for NMP lol

 

[Badge]

Send me a video when you manage to DJ+FF on frame 1, NAir on frame 2, c-stick to the side between frame 3 and 5 on frame 3/4 and FF on frame 5 of your jump consistently. That's just Ness though, for Lucas you can FF after the NAir, so it's easier.

4 frames for the jump, 1 frame for the DJ and 4 frames until the hitbox is out for a total of 9, dunno where ST got the additional frame. It's 10 without the FF, so that might be it. It's also 3600/9=400 NPM.

 

[GMaster171]

I might actually, but the order in which you said that seems wrong lol. How to FF DJ before using aerial haha.

And I can't do it with nair, it requires the control stick to be neutral (which would be extremely difficult seeing how I use tap jump for DJC). dair is one frame slower, so it brings similar results. Holding the control stick to the side slightly causes you to ledge cancel so its not actually that hard to get 3+ in a second consistently (or as fast as you can move your fingers). I can tell you this because I was both doing this and talking to ST about the frames lol.

It must have been the lack of FF that caused the extra frame. 400 NPM... aint nobody gonna beat that.

Btw, Dair is annoying to DJC consistently on hit, keeping low as hell. without FF you run the risk of going too high and messing up the timing. With FF you run the risk of actually landing before the freaking hitbox comes out on a frame 5 move lol. Im trying with FF more than without, I find its easier to delay the DJ by a tiny amount, compared to accounting for the few frames that can mess up timing.

 

[Badge]

You're right, you have to fastfall on the fifth aerial frame. I was sure you had to buffer a fastfall for the frame you NAir, but that wouldn't even work so I must have been mistaken. Whatever, I don't doubt it can be done with NAir, but hitting a jump button for just one frame is hard and as you have to also be frame perfect with everything else I don't think anybody would be willing to take the time to learn it. Especially when Lucas DJC FAir takes 10 frames and just 3 simple inputs on the ledge all the while being actually useful.

 

[GMaster171]

I never meant to imply that edge cancelled nair is useful, heck, DJC nair doesnt cover much in the first place, its low on my list of usage lol. without TAS I'v been talking about dair the entire time, as its very easy to do in general (y->tap jump->c-stick down)

I just like stuff like NPM contests, and its an interesting way to practice being precise with stuff like this.

Also, ledge cancelled dair is fairly useful, it catches a bunch of recoveries while keeping Ness able to act instantly.

 

[GMaster171]

DOUBLE POST OMAGERD DUN SHOOT ME

Got 3rd at monthly last weekend going 90% Ness. Some matches were recorded (losers semis and finals i think... idk):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPKE9p1aeA4&list=UUyDRvC43ZHQ8YusQi3lRKow&index=11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnBZvLo2n-U&list=UUyDRvC43ZHQ8YusQi3lRKow&index=10
check it.

 

[Bryonato]

Sick. I'm busy at the moment but I'll be sure to check those out. Gratz on 3rd. Learn anything matchup-wise or anything?

 

[GMaster171]

Well comparing Fox to Falco, Falco is much much easier to fight, the fact he has larger holes in his pressure means you can get grabs much easier, and grabs on spacies give Ness a bunch of options. Outside of grabs, Ness has an ok time in neutral imo, FH goes over lasers, and he cant just jump in due to DJC fair (forward or back). The guy I was playing against said he literally didn't care where we went 3rd game, and because I actually was trying to win, I did abuse FD against him (he realized after the match started how bad a choice it was, but he chose to let me take him there so w/e). Ness' floatiness plus his weight seems to make Falco's combos much less effective, he can get one or two reps of shine->dair if hes lucky/good, but you can float/nair out of stuff easily. Seems even overall, but I'd need more matches to confirm.

DK seems even, I need (again) more matches to know what/how to avoid DK's combos and tricks, but it seems manageable. I talked to him after, and he gave me pointers I will work to insert these into my game, big things he said are projectiles and shield pressure. PKFire/flash to manage space, djc to crossup shields. NEED MORE MATCHES.

Snake is not in our favor. we dont have the mobility to outmaneuver his stuff imo. I lost and he wasent even abusing the CG/stickies he could. Not the worst, but still difficult, unless I'm missing something completely haha. Need much more experience before I can give much, he plays so unique, so we got to play unique against him.

Ivy is still at least even, maybe a tiny bit in our favor. we can float/dair out of combos, dair beats seed bomb, nair beats razor leaf (DJC NAIR=ANTI PROJECTILE/SONIC), throw in bat to reflect leaf randomly, throws them off a ton. Cant edge guard with much cept Flash if they try going high, as Ness is risking too much in dropping off with Nair, or even ledge hogging. neutral is very weird, as both sides can neutralize the others pokes with knowledge, so look for patterns and go with fair/DJC bair, both are magic in all matchups.

All the characters I played, dont quote me on these, they are my thoughts on few matches (cept Ivy, but my friend is still learning as well). At this point im stuck in the "Knowledge without Practice" phase of learning, I'm still new to competing so I have trouble with mindgames and picking up patterns in individual games against new people.

rant, fun, whee.

other opinions on Ness, magnet is getting less and less used since I realized other moves do better in almost all situations, and theres a delay on absorption (like on Spacies Shine, they can get stuck in it if being hit quickly), I thought it could force approaches against people trying to force your approach, but when they can just run on you, shoot and grab/hit while you are in lag, its kinda silly heh.

Thats all for now.

ps (Wish Ness could moonwalk)

 

[Bryonato]

HUGE LOL @ 8:40 on that first set. That was awesome.

Were you nervous or something? Your play didn't seem as confident as it does when you stream friendlies.


EDIT: Also that last combo was pretty sick

 

[GMaster171]

Heh heh... yea, I'm not the most comfortable in tournies yet, looking back I see a lot of silly things I shouldn't be doing, but at the time I don't realize is wrong. I'v never competed before January, so this stuff is still really new to me. I'm definitely trying to get used to it, but its gonna take a little while until I'm as comfortable in serious matches as I am in friendlies. I quite honestly was nervous, I realized but couldn't help it.

I probably think too much during matches, my head hurt after the tourny lol, just need time.

thx btw

 

[Bryonato]

Oh I'm not judging or anything don't worry. Good that you can recognize your own mistakes though.

 

[SinisterB]

Ness can defs moonwalk

what do you think those kicks are for son?

 

[GMaster171]

Show me your Ways, even with that weird wavemooning thing, Ness still goes miles forward but like a step back. Might just be me, but moonwalks usually include going backwards.

@Spiffy, unfortunatly I didn't realize my mistakes till after. When I was playing, it seemed right, but looking back almost every option I took was subpar lol. Watch my friendlies until I get used to tournies haha.

 

[Bryonato]

lol. Wavemooning?