Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sorry college move in, let me contact the yoshi boards and fix the title of the thread.

 

[Drigo Toes]

I think the main problem with yoshi is his (or its) priority. Yoshi can overpass yours best priority hits (don't counting Uair, move that you can't depend).
At least, when I fight a Yoshi User, I keep a Zair Distance, and try to get a chance to a preassure attack, counting Yoshi has a bad Shield.

I think 65-35 for the Yoshi.

 

[Z'zgashi]

We can stop your arrows and boomerang with jab (possibly bomb but i doubt it) and our eggs can be a good annoyance/damage builder. We can approach quite well due to bair eating through your projectiles as well and since link has bad OoS options (not as bad as ours though) we can bair into your shield and then jab it down to a point where we can dtilt or angled ftilt poke you out of it. We also have the cg which we can take you offstage with, and then nair your jump or bait up b for easy kills. Our uair can outranged your dair if spaced right, egg lay beats out every single airial you have, and our insane mobility helps us keep away from most attacks and keep you guessing on what we'll do next. The only thing link has that sometimes gives me slight problems in your bombs, but we can still use them against you with double jump cancels and stuffed if they weren't cooked. 70:30 Yoshi imo.

 

[Delta-cod]

Overall Yoshi Vs Link. I feel that Yoshi has the advantage. Fast Bair, Nair, and Uair for kills makes Yoshi pretty deadly in the air. Dair can be thrown out as well, but its rather hard to land the hit, but if it does you are in some serious hurt. Fair as most of you know can spike, though even if it doesn't it still hits pretty hard and may kill you anyway. Though if you're below Yoshi there isnt much he can do against Link's Uair.

Actually, Yoshi is fast enough in the air that he should be able to just air dodge away from Link's attempts to juggle. Yoshi's dair is also highly SDIable, so it's not really that effective. It's also pretty slow.

Yoshi's jabs are really fast, well kicks... He can dash attack> jabs before many of the cast can retaliate. They are even fast enough to Jabs>Jabs if you if you react just a bit too late. Yoshi's tilts are also really fast, though at the same time they have no killing power like Link's does.

None of these combos are particularly legitimate, but they are a little gimmicky.

Yoshi's grab is evil. I believe he can always force the air release as there is no way you can touch the ground while you're in his mouth. So watch out for grab release>Grab on walk off stages or at the edge of the stage where he can go for a walk off fair for a spike attempt. Also note that if you do a standard SH Zair, Yoshi can do a dash grab under the chain and get you in mid air. i don't think Yoshi's grab is considered tether grab, since it doesn't suffer from the "cant grab airborne opponents". Yoshi also has one of the best pivot grabs in the game, or so I've been told.

We have an air release CG on Link, which sets up a pretty nasty position for you offstage. It really causes your recovery to be pretty linear.

Yoshi's Dspecial is pretty deadly, but does leave him pretty vulnerable if missed. I think it can efficiently be used as an OoS for a kill if you use a laggy move. It is also been used to go for a quick ledge grab from way above that instantly grabs on. Also a nice little AT for that move is to use it on a slant, it will cause Yoshi to slide in that direction. If he goes off stage he can instantly go into an aerial with no land lag what so ever.

Yoshi bomb can be combo'd into by canceling into it from the first hit of jab at higher percents (upwards of 100%, I think around 130%.)

Uspecial is one of Yoshi's best planking moves. Release to Uspecial is a great way for Yoshi to stall. Most likely Yoshi will use this move before even using his second jump as a recovery.

We can really only do this 5 times before the stall no longer works properly.

Yoshi's Neutral B can lead into many things depending on what they want to do. They can go into aerials, Uair for kills. He could toss an egg at you. He could use it again. Though i've never been killed by it off stage, in theory he could just swallow you way off stage and you wouldnt have enough time to recover.

Egg Lay exists mainly to beat shields from the air, or cover a landing. It has no guaranteed set ups. In fact, it doesn't really lead into ANYTHING. There's invincibility on when you break out, and you take reduced damage while inside the egg.

Sspecial seems pretty useless. Its fast with no priority. Its easy enough to shield/dodge it. Though if you want you can easily clank or beat it with almost any of Links attacks. If he is pushed off stage while in the egg he will die. So my thought is to attempt a gale push while he is in the egg to go for an easy and satisfying kill.

Egg Roll is one of my pet moves. It actually has surprising priority, a lot more than you give it credit. It can beat MK's tornado, for example. I'm pretty sure it would clank with Link's tilts and possibly some of his smashes. It's a decent momentum canceler, although you're very vulnerable after using it. It's not the best move, but I love it.

Yoshi's shield sucks a lot. I would love Yoshi if I didn't think his shield and OoS options were absolute garbage (and I play Link, hahaha). I think the key is going to be spacing him with moves like zair or fair. Keep him at midrange. At midrange we're gonna beat him and if he shields his options are limited, allowing us to much more easily reset the spacing against him than most other characters. I think Yoshi will actually win long range with his eggs, since all we have at very long ranges is charged arrows, which aren't all that great.

Zair is very effective in this match up. I actually feel as though more traditional camping that uses your projectiles is much less effective at mid range than just walling us with Zair. It really does limit our options very well, and I'd probably say it's the one thing that makes this MU NOT incredibly easy for Yoshi.

Close up I'm guessing Yoshi's gonna beat us up (what else is new, haha). Try to force him to pull up his shield; this is going to give us tons of options to reset the spacing, much more so than other characters (but I'm assuming good art Yoshis will know this and try to minimize their shield usage?).

We usually won't use our shield if we're the ones trying to get in and attack close range. We'll mainly use jab mixups and pivot grabs to fight. We try not to get trapped in our shield too much.

Link's pretty good when it comes to kill potential, with a lot of moves that can kill. Yoshi is not iirc, and his best killers, usmash and utilt, are vertical, and Link is hard to kill vertically. I'd watch for fsmash, since that has a nice low trajectory, although fsmash is a bit sluggish and lacks range, and with any luck we'll be keeping Yoshi out of range. Dsmash isn't really a great killing move at all.

Link might not be easy to kill in a traditional sense, but our CG puts you off stage and makes your recovery linear, allowing for a relatively simple gimp.

We can stop your arrows and boomerang with jab (possibly bomb but i doubt it) and our eggs can be a good annoyance/damage builder. We can approach quite well due to bair eating through your projectiles as well and since link has bad OoS options (not as bad as ours though) we can bair into your shield and then jab it down to a point where we can dtilt or angled ftilt poke you out of it. We also have the cg which we can take you offstage with, and then nair your jump or bait up b for easy kills. Our uair can outranged your dair if spaced right, egg lay beats out every single airial you have, and our insane mobility helps us keep away from most attacks and keep you guessing on what we'll do next. The only thing link has that sometimes gives me slight problems in your bombs, but we can still use them against you with double jump cancels and stuffed if they weren't cooked. 70:30 Yoshi imo.

This post would be good if it didn't assume Link players sucked.

Link has options to keep Yoshi away, although we still hit incredibly hard when we get past them. I'd put this as 6:4 Yoshi, personally.

 

[Scabe]

I play regularly against a friend who has a decent Yoshi as his secondary (mains Meta Knight (weird right?))

Yoshi has an Air Release Chain Grab on Link.

Once Yoshi grabs Link, all Yoshi has to do is pummel until Link breaks out of the grab; when Link breaks out of the grab he gets released into the air at this point Link can't do anything until he hits the ground due to the animation of the air release. So Yoshi can regrab Link and repeat it over and over.

So this is pretty bad for Link because Yoshi can Air Release Link until the edge where it forces him to recover in some way.

I should mention a funny thing that sometimes happens, when I predict a grab from Yoshi, I try to mash out really fast and I actually end up getting ground released.

Air Speed

Yoshi's air speed is one of the best (the best?) in game. Yoshi can approach with Bair from a medium-short distance and then retreat without getting Shield Grabbed by Link.

The air speed makes it difficult with predicting where he'll end up when Yoshi's offstage.

The air speed also makes getting in front of Link's face real easy, which I think is a bad position for Link. I've found that I get combo'd 0 to 30 when Yoshi is up in my face.

Offstage

There's so many things Yoshi could do to Link while he's offstage making recovering difficult for Link. Nair, Up B, Fair, Dair, Bair.

At Long Distance Yoshi Outcamps Link

His Egg Toss is a nuisance. At long distances, it makes pulling out a Bomb hard, and you can't really charge an arrow to hit him for retaliation (may work).

Down B

What's this move called? It's a pretty cool move, it does a lot of damage to shields and it can kill.

First hit of Jab sets up for the Down B. Not used too often.

Stages

I don't really like Final Destination against Yoshi because of the Chain Grab shenanigans.

Also watch out for this if you're fighting Yoshi on Frigate
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I'll post what Link can do another time with a ratio.

This post would be good if it didn't assume Link players sucked.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I play regularly against a friend who has a decent Yoshi as his secondary (mains Meta Knight (weird right?))

Yoshi has an Air Release Chain Grab on Link.

Once Yoshi grabs Link, all Yoshi has to do is pummel until Link breaks out of the grab; when Link breaks out of the grab he gets released into the air at this point Link can't do anything until he hits the ground due to the animation of the air release. So Yoshi can regrab Link and repeat it over and over.

So this is pretty bad for Link because Yoshi can Air Release Link until the edge where it forces him to recover in some way.

I should mention a funny thing that sometimes happens, when I predict a grab from Yoshi, I try to mash out really fast and I actually end up getting ground released. ]

I'm quoting this because there is a way to break out.

You know how DDD's infinite anyone not names DK or Bowser? They mix in pummels to fill in the stall moveset. While it isn't the same mechanic of logic it's what you need to do to force a ground break.

If you can mash out fast enough you can force a ground break instead of an airbreak. There is one key problem with this, Yoshi's pummels are much faster than DDD's so instead of 120% being the magic number it's going to be much much lower, like 30-40% and that's pushing it.

So think like a Wario main and pick stages with a lot of platforms, because if Yoshi gets that grab it will put Link in a very very bad spot.

Lylat Cruise, Battlefield, Brinstar, PS1 is good if the stage changes, any of these can help.

More later since Yoshi is <3.

 

[Ryos4]

IDk if i agree with the huge 70-30 or 65-35. The match up doesn't really seem all that bad for the most part. Its no where near as being as difficult as a falco match up. I say about 60-40 at most. Ive played against good yoshi's on their counter picks, but i have never really felt overwhelmed as i sometimes do with really bad match ups.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi's Grab Release

Clearing up all your confusions on the grab release shenanigans, since I see a lot of misinformation being spread.

You can escape Yoshi's grab release by ground breaking. However, in order to do this, you must break out of the grab before you are actually put into Yoshi's mouth. Basically, you have to mash out super quick to ground break. This is NOT practical past like, 30%, and even then it's difficult. It has nothing to do with pummeling (I think, although I have been told that if we don't try to pummel we will ALWAYS air release, but I think it's false.)

Scabe, who's Yoshi do you play? O.o

 

[Huggles828]

Here's a video of a nice Yoshi recovery. Yoshi has insane air speed; I'm pretty sure it is the fastest in the game, and I think Yoshi is a lot harder to gimp than people say.

I agree with around 60-40. Link can keep Yoshi out easier than many and does well when he does keep him out, but Yoshi can beat up Link once he gets inside, and Link's not going to be able to keep him out forever, since all it takes is one tiny opening and Yoshi will get in because he's so fast.

 

[Scabe]

Scabe, who's Yoshi do you play? O.o

I don't play against any famous AKA good Yoshi's (I live in Australia). His name is Nanda. It's pretty funny watching him play. Sometimes with Yoshi he'll SD by doing Egg Roll off stage

I tend to win more by just being a better player and having more experience but I really starting struggle sometimes in that matchup. I definitely think it's in Yoshi's advantage

 

[bigman40]

I've been linked (mentioned). Yoshi can be annoyed trying to get in if you're smart about where and when you let him in. Abuse your jab locks, and only use Zair when falling into the ground. I've punished airborne Zairs when Link players thought it would've hit me. Abuse Nair, Bair, and Fair to try and stab through Yoshi's Bair. Other than that, there's not much I have on this matchup.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Just throwing this out there, Zair isn't as safe if Yoshi is running towards you. Even if its well spaced a sliding up smash 9 times outta 10 will go under it and slap you in the face. Its Kinda funny actually lol. And our shield sucks but the best you will probably get out of us shielding is a reset. Your grab is slow enough to spot dodge on reaction and links attacks have pretty good shield push so if we roll directly after a hit it sends us to a safe position out of your reach.

 

[Rizen]

Advice for playing as Link, my 2 cents:
Yoshi's dash grab is deceptively fast with good reach. The first few good Yoshis I played destroyed me with this and egg tactics. Link out-reaches but Yoshi's faster so Link needs to plan attacks in advance with tip of attack spacing. Yoshi can DownB as a close 2 hit attack and throw eggs close which always have a big explosion.
Yoshi's air speed is ridiculous, don't counter with close attacks: move and spam in the direction he's going. He can air dodge Link's Utilt/Usmash and safely land and counter.
In the air Uair beats any attack Yoshi aims strait down. Dair and Fair out last air dodges. Link should use projectiles to keep him away because Yoshi's faster and hard to space. Yoshi wins in the air but Link can medium range space and spam better. Link's best escape option vs Yoshi's air movement is to go down and land.
If Link has time to start defensively camping and creates a wall of projectiles he should be able to force an approach, which is easy for Yoshi. Otherwise Link will get some hits in but Yoshi will win camping because eggs do more damage. Range attacks are best used as spacing tools. Zair is long enough to pop eggs safely, from tip of Zair spacing Link can stop Yoshi's eggs and force another action. I think we can stop planking by standing back and SH spamming. Bombs are mostly ineffective because Yoshi can egg Link as he draws one.
Egg roll, grab or UpB. Be sure to connect and not be baited into a laggy move. Jump and throw a bomb works too.
Off stage Yoshi is extremely fast and Link is easy to gimp. Plan further ahead than usual, throw a boomerang from a distance, Fair early, Zair if you're high enough. Airdodge> Zair is good, you can cancel edge tether attempts by pressing down when Yoshi edgehogs and UpB.

Spacing is difficult in this MU, it's also one where getting momentum counts. Link does have hard hitting attacks that out reach Yoshi, but Yoshi's grab, eggs, and air movement are a pain. Stay away from edges, keep moving and spamming from a medium distance, and try to get the upper hand in spacing/spamming before close range attacking. SHs are essential.

Pick Norfair as usual, PS1, Yoshi's Island (Brawl) or Lylat, I guess. Besides Norfair I can't think of stage where Link will have an advantage. Ban Frigate.
60-40 Yoshi.

 

[Delta-cod]

This thread needs moar Kirin.

 

[Ryos4]

Uhh i think PS1, YI, and Lylat are horrible ideas to counter pick against Yoshi. Yoshi can make use of any slants to his advantage. I suggest flat stages. Very very flat. Platforms are good as well. Brinstar is a toss up. As Link can take advantage of alot of it. But yoshi can as well in terms of platform set up which allow easy egg tossing if yoshi is at the bottom. The slants on the stage will also help yoshi cancel his Dspecial into an aerial with no lag.

 

[Poltergust]

Yoshi's Grab Release

Clearing up all your confusions on the grab release shenanigans, since I see a lot of misinformation being spread.

You can escape Yoshi's grab release by ground breaking. However, in order to do this, you must break out of the grab before you are actually put into Yoshi's mouth. Basically, you have to mash out super quick to ground break. This is NOT practical past like, 30%, and even then it's difficult. It has nothing to do with pummeling (I think, although I have been told that if we don't try to pummel we will ALWAYS air release, but I think it's false.)

Scabe, who's Yoshi do you play? O.o

Actually, it IS true that if we don't pummel, then we'll always get an air-release. That's why I don't bother pummeling if there are walk-offs or if my opponent in under 50%.

Uhh i think PS1, YI, and Lylat are horrible ideas to counter pick against Yoshi. Yoshi can make use of any slants to his advantage. I suggest flat stages. Very very flat. Platforms are good as well. Brinstar is a toss up. As Link can take advantage of alot of it. But yoshi can as well in terms of platform set up which allow easy egg tossing if yoshi is at the bottom. The slants on the stage will also help yoshi cancel his Dspecial into an aerial with no lag.

Depending on the angle of the slant, I believe it is actually possible to d-tilt Link out of his up-B if we time it right.

 

[Delta-cod]

Actually, it IS true that if we don't pummel, then we'll always get an air-release. That's why I don't bother pummeling if there are walk-offs or if my opponent in under 50%.

That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll accept it. @_@

 

[Huggles828]

Actually, it IS true that if we don't pummel, then we'll always get an air-release. That's why I don't bother pummeling if there are walk-offs or if my opponent in under 50%.

I know that Captain Falcon can grab shorter characters like MK and force an air release if he doesn't pummel, and can use that to CG people to the edge. Are there any special properties of Yoshi's air release that we would need to know about?

 

[Poltergust]

Everyone is the same when they go into Yoshi's mouth, so every character gets air-released if we don't pummel.

So yeah, walk-offs are bad for Link.

 

[Ryos4]

Yeah walk offs are bad for Link. He has terrible throws that are too easily DIable. I was in a Link ditto once on i think Delphino. Anyway, i got grabbed while the other link was in the magnifying glass. He tried to Bthrow me to my death but with upward DI plus bair for momentum cancel i didnt die. I think i was near 80% or something as well. Which for Link's Bthrow, is just pathetic.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yoshi's Grab Release

Clearing up all your confusions on the grab release shenanigans, since I see a lot of misinformation being spread.

You can escape Yoshi's grab release by ground breaking. However, in order to do this, you must break out of the grab before you are actually put into Yoshi's mouth. Basically, you have to mash out super quick to ground break. This is NOT practical past like, 30%, and even then it's difficult. It has nothing to do with pummeling (I think, although I have been told that if we don't try to pummel we will ALWAYS air release, but I think it's false.)

Scabe, who's Yoshi do you play? O.o

Thanks for clearing this up.

Same with Poltergust.

Walloffs? So Delfino and Castle Seige would suck in these cases.

 

[Delta-cod]

Delfino and Castle both have walkoffs, but there are certain tools Link has to avoid them. Mainly platform camping on Castle, and stage positioning on Delfino. The problem with camping it out of Castle would be that Link's air game is kinda "Eh" and we could probably molest you.

It's probably less severe on Delfino. IIRC, the walk offs present there are:

The stairway area with the dolphin statue: If you stay in the center or stay between us and the staircase on the upper parts, you will NOT get walk offed. The downhill slope prevents use from continuing the CG, and going up the slope prevents it as well. You'll only be walkoff ***** if you get caught on the upper levels with a grab.

Umbrella Section: Here you have umbrellas to ward off grabs, as well as the walkoff only being present on one side, allows for smart play to avoid the CG > death.

Dock section: The walkoff is only present on the right dock. Just don't go up there or stay there too long and you should be fine.

Another thing to note is the rooftop section, where it's not quite a full walk off, but there are no ledges to grab, and the CG will put you near the blast zone. Your recovery is SEVERELY limited here, and there really isn't an abundance of places for you to stand to avoid it. Of course, smart play will always keep you safe.

Walkoff CGs really aren't too large a problem for Link.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Still worth noting though.

I didn't know those ledges weren't grabable on the is the rooftop section, and there went my stock when that happened. And if someone does grab us from a mistake it would really suck.

 

[Delta-cod]

Well yeah, it is pretty dangerous.

But still, proper stage positioning WILL beat that all the time. For the rooftop, stay on the center, or between Yoshi and the center raised area, and you'll never be CG'd off to the edge.

At high levels of play, I REALLY doubt a walk off KO will happen during this MU. Link can and should be able to avoid it. It really only is a very damaging mistake punisher. And even still, if you DO get grabbed, you can just not break out and wait for the stage change if necessary. Chances are better that way.

 

[Ryos4]

Im curious about what you said, about not breaking out to slow the chain grab. Is there a possibility that you and yoshi could get pulled down with the stage on stage transitions. Like on castle siege. If it does happen to occur, i think it would be a great way to punish a yoshi for trying to walk off chain grab link.

 

[Crow!]

Links to my previous writeups on Link/Yoshi:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=1416159#p1416159
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=1416818#p1416818

 

[Delta-cod]

Im curious about what you said, about not breaking out to slow the chain grab. Is there a possibility that you and yoshi could get pulled down with the stage on stage transitions. Like on castle siege. If it does happen to occur, i think it would be a great way to punish a yoshi for trying to walk off chain grab link.

Well, that's possible. But then Yoshi can always, you know, throw Link. It's not like a Grab Release CG is terribly committing. If we need to, we can just throw you and recover.

Yoshi is a fast, aggressive, attack string oriented character. He's the fastest character in the game when it comes to moving horizontally in midair, so fast that he can throw an item and then catch it again before landing. He has a good approach, with many relevant options and good fakeouts. Once Yoshi scores a hit, as a heavy character with few fast and effective interruption options, Link is likely to take many hits in a row, almost regardless of which attack Yoshi landed.

On the other hand, none of Yoshi's attacks (save grabs) are disjoint. This means he can't really swat away projectiles. He also has a terrible shield which he cannot jump out of (a real shame, too, because NAir is amazing). This gives him a hard time dealing with spam walls, and I've found Link's spam in particular very difficult to get through as Yoshi. Yoshi's lack of disjointedness also puts him at a disadvantage against characters who do. Marth, especially, wrecks Yoshi, and Link likewise often makes those of Yoshi's options which usually trade hits instead simply go in Link's favor.

Yoshi is not a primarily offensive character. His defensive game is actually quite top notch, although he does have the capabilities to play both ways. His approach game is a bit lacking, however.

Also, Yoshi CAN swat projectiles away. He can beat arrows and boomerang with jab, Bair, tilts, and a bunch of other moves. I do it all the time.

BTW, Yoshi's DAir combos into footstool, and FAir spikes, and NAir is a horizontal kill move, and getting B-Reversal Egg Layed off stage is likely death for Link. If Link knows which one is coming he's fine, but the point is Yoshi has a wide variety of options and you're not always going to get it right if you and the Yoshi are at equal skill level.

Likewise, Link can gimp Yoshi. Link can use projectiles, attack (in a few ways), or footstool. Yoshi can deal with each of these options, but he has to guess which one's coming correctly.

Yoshi's Dair does NOT combo into footstool. Ever. If anyone with half a brain SDIs it, THEY can footstool YOSHI for using Dair. Although this only really works at lower percents, IIRC.

Link should never gimp Yoshi, ever. All Yoshi has to do is DI well and recover high. Done, no gimp. DJAD will also get Yoshi past any of Link's gimp attempts, although it may cause a small bit of punishment onstage.

 

[Rizen]

Uhh i think PS1, YI, and Lylat are horrible ideas to counter pick against Yoshi. Yoshi can make use of any slants to his advantage. I suggest flat stages. Very very flat. Platforms are good as well. Brinstar is a toss up. As Link can take advantage of alot of it. But yoshi can as well in terms of platform set up which allow easy egg tossing if yoshi is at the bottom. The slants on the stage will also help yoshi cancel his Dspecial into an aerial with no lag.

YI, I forgot about the slanted lower section, the top platform could stop egg spam but it's not worth it.

Lylat, Link can do a lot with platform camping and throwing bombs down. Zair's great too. Yoshi gets a big recovery advantage. Can Yoshi CG Link as well on tilting Lylat as flat stages? Someone may have just messed up the timing when I escaped here. The platforms and stage tilt are good if Link's evasive with airdodges and spams defensively. It's a trade off. If Yoshi can CG, Battlefield's a better choice.

My problem with flat stages like FD and Smashville is Yoshi's CG>gimp. Link is slow and not too hard to grab. Yoshi can throw Link offstage putting him in a bad position.

Battlefield, Link doesn't have enough space and leans in Yoshi's favor but is mostly neutral.

Cornairia, Yoshi has stage better control and Star KO abilities.

Castle Siege, easy walk off CGs, and better movement options for Yoshi.

Delfino, I don't know. Toss up?

Brinstar is a toss up, Yoshi is heavy too and can spam better. Link won't get CGed and can cancel Dairs and space well with less risk of being gimped. Yoshi's Uair is powerful and he can armorframe jump>take a Dair hit>Uair Link for a KO.

PS1 I disagree. Link will always have platforms, some better than others and most stage changes boost Link's spamming and limit Yoshi's spam and air options. The area is good for SH/platform hopping moving camps and mid-range spacing. Link can avoid edges easier than small stages like BF too. I think Yoshi can wall infinite Link so don't get pinned. It's about even but slightly favors Link.

Rainbow Cruse Yoshi has a huge air/gimping advantage and Yoshi's better on several other stages too.

The problem is that Yoshi does well or better on Link's good stages except for Norfair. CPing vs Yoshi is a matter of preference and choosing the 'lesser of the evils'.

 

[Delta-cod]

YI, I forgot about the slanted lower section, the top platform could stop egg spam but it's not worth it.

Yoshi's Island has the potential to ruin our camping as well as the CG. I'd say it's a decent stage for you.

Lylat, Link can do a lot with platform camping and throwing bombs down. Zair's great too. Yoshi gets a big recovery advantage. Can Yoshi CG Link as well on tilting Lylat as flat stages? Someone may have just messed up the timing when I escaped here. The platforms and stage tilt are good if Link's evasive with airdodges and spams defensively. It's a trade off. If Yoshi can CG, Battlefield's a better choice.

The CG really only gets messed up by the tilt at the edges of the stage, where there's already a natural slant. Lylat is large and has accessible platforms, making it a good choice for Link, I'd say.

Delfino, I don't know. Toss up?

I've covered this before, but Yoshi can use Delfino better than Link can. We get the pressure of walk offs, easy abuse of the main platform that we can rise through, we can lock you in the water with eggs, we have better air speed to abuse certain sections better, etc. I wouldn't recommend this stage.

Brinstar is a toss up, Yoshi is heavy too and can spam better. Link won't get CGed and can cancel Dairs and space well with less risk of being gimped. Yoshi's Uair is powerful and he can armorframe jump>take a Dair hit>Uair Link for a KO.

Brinstar is Yoshi's worst stage. I don't know how this match up would go down here, but it might be worth a shot. Just note that most Yoshis will ALWAYS ban it. I know I do.

Also, we can only tank a DAir hit at like, MINIMAL percents. That knocks us out pretty early.

PS1 I disagree. Link will always have platforms, some better than others and most stage changes boost Link's spamming and limit Yoshi's spam and air options. The area is good for SH/platform hopping moving camps and mid-range spacing. Link can avoid edges easier than small stages like BF too. I think Yoshi can wall infinite Link so don't get pinned. It's about even but slightly favors Link.

PS1 is more of a toss up. Yoshi can really abuse the transformations to just time you out. Seriously. And the neutral form is good for him. Long, flat, few plats to mess with the CG.

The problem is that Yoshi does well or better on Link's good stages except for Norfair. CPing vs Yoshi is a matter of preference and choosing the 'lesser of the evils'.

Yoshi actually ***** on Norfair. He has an amazing anti air game, so he camps the center platform EXTREMELY well. He's also fast enough to freely move about the stage.

 

[Rizen]

Okay ^that's good information. I didn't realize how bad Brinstar is for Yoshi; Link's really good there but it will be banned. If Yoshi's Island (Brawl) can hurt Yoshi's CG and spam it sounds like Link's best CP (?). On PS1 I forgot being timed out. Link can be very annoying with defensive camping when the stage changes but PS1's neutral gives Yoshi a chance to catch up if behind.
Norfair is Link's best stage. I assume Link has a bigger advantage because it boosts every tactic Link has and stops CGs and easy gimps. Yoshi is really good there too but I think Link benefits more. Bombs easily cover the center platform from above. Link does well and has stage control from anywhere on the stage.
Yoshi's a better character in general, he will have an advantage on almost every stage. Some more than others.

Yoshi should CP Frigate. Walk off stages like Castle Siege etc or RC will be good too.

 

[Delta-cod]

Okay ^that's good information. I didn't realize how bad Brinstar is for Yoshi; Link's really good there but it will be banned. If Yoshi's Island (Brawl) can hurt Yoshi's CG and spam it sounds like Link's best CP (?). On PS1 I forgot being timed out. Link can be very annoying with defensive camping when the stage changes but PS1's neutral gives Yoshi a chance to catch up if behind.
Norfair is Link's best stage. I assume Link has a bigger advantage because it boosts every tactic Link has and stops CGs and easy gimps. Yoshi is really good there too but I think Link benefits more. Bombs easily cover the center platform from above. Link does well and has stage control from anywhere on the stage.
Yoshi's a better character in general, he will have an advantage on almost every stage. Some more than others.

Yoshi should CP Frigate. Walk off stages like Castle Siege etc or RC will be good too.

I like Link mains, they're good at MU discussions.

Brinstar is bad because it absolutely RUINS Yoshi's ground game and he doesn't abuse the extended hitlag well. Everything about the stage layout just messes with him.

YI (Brawl) would probably be Link's best neutral. For CP, I'm not sure. I would certainly put it as one of his better stages in the MU.

I am always willing to time people out, and so should everyone. So PS1 would be pretty bad.

I've never played a Link on Norfair, but I can see him being better on the stage than Yoshi. That might be another good place to take him, but if Yoshi gets the lead, he CAN time you out, as it's large and air based, and Yoshi is the fastest in the air.

I feel like this MU is sort of like trying to CP MK, in a sense. You guys want to pick a stage that you really like, but Yoshi can use it just as well, almost as well, or better in some cases. It'll probably come down to personal preference, and trying to read how the Yoshi plays.

Halberd MIGHT be good, because the CG really isn't too potent there due to platform positioning, although it is long and flat. I'm not sure how Link usually kills, but I'm sure it's vertically, so that's good for you. I'm pretty sure Yoshi will kill off gimps or horizontally in this MU anyways.

 

[bigman40]

Yoshi can shark under the flying portion. Really, Link would have better time picking stages that provide shelter (for instance, Frigate's dip on the 2nd part or Norfair's center and lowest platform). Link's only goal is to keep him out, and that's kinda tough considering how most of the stages are designed in terms of complimenting Link's camp.

 

[Rizen]

Yoshi can shark under the flying portion. Really, Link would have better time picking stages that provide shelter (for instance, Frigate's dip on the 2nd part or Norfair's center and lowest platform). Link's only goal is to keep him out, and that's kinda tough considering how most of the stages are designed in terms of complimenting Link's camp.

If a character sharks pass-through stages Link can throw bombs at the ground and then Dair them.

Frigate is terrible for Link, the first phase and when the stage changes are killers for his bad recovery. I like Frigate and Link can space well but Link gets gimped too easily. If yoshi got 1 grab he could CG Link off the left and gimp with Dtilt or most attacks 0% to death.

Yoshi's eggs have big explosions that go through platforms but Link doesn't successfully camp in one spot anyway. Norfair's good because Link can easily SH around while spamming. It also supports the gravity affect on projectiles. Link's so slow that he needs to SH and landing cancel moves to maintain spacing. The 'V' formation of platforms is perfect for Link's low SHs and Jumps and tethers. Link needs platforms for spacing, not shelter as much.

Link keeps opponents out for spacing reasons but he needs to KO too. Being a defensive character with little KO power in his projectiles, Link is at risk when trying to KO. If the opponent runs, Link has a hard time catching them without being at great risk. KOs are safest when done from chaining attacks (Bomb>Dair and so on), or baiting and punishing. Since Link can Zair through eggs and Yoshi has a weak shield, Zair>Fsmash or something powerful is a good option if spaced right.
Link's good at gimping with projectiles, Z tether edge hogging, and close to the stage attacks (which is a bad idea vs Yoshi).
KOing Link
Anyone can gimp Link; it's by far the easiest way to KO him because with good DI Link can easily live over 150% and sometimes even 200%. Air interceptions, 'B' egging him, and Dtilt/Dsmash (if Link doesn't whiplash it) can KO Link at low %s.
Yoshi can power KO Link too at high %s with Smashes and Uair. If Yoshi's close he has the speed advantage to attack.
Most KOs will be from hitting/throwing Link offstage and intercepting.

 

[bigman40]

The reason I stated that we can shark was because we can throw eggs safely without being in danger to getting hit by anything. You throw a bomb, and it won't matter since we'll be out of range until we have to either get on the stage or get on the ledge to prevent from SDing.

I stated Frigate not for a viable choice for Link, but to explain the parts of a stage that helps promote Link's camping against Yoshi. Slopes messes up Yoshi grabs, but give him Yoshi bomb canceling. Platforms that just slightly hover over a character makes egg tossing harder than normal, limiting our camping uses by a little (and slightly, our approaching options).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm not sure sharking on some stages is a good idea, I'll be keeping count of the LG's heck I've beaten players that miscounted when they timed me out and I showed they went over.

Also I don't think Yoshi benefits more, he certainly does benefit but Link can live til % stupid when he's knocked horizontally via whiplash, plus his Dair can kill pretty early here. Still I wouldn't recommend this for CP over Brinstar, this stage helps Yoshi out in a couple of ways.

So if I were to CP Yoshi I would pick Brinstar/YI (Brawl)/Norfair in order of left to right.

 

[bigman40]

Sharking with Yoshi isn't generally used, but it gives us one of the safest options to apply light pressure. Plus, it racks the LG too fast. It's fine to use it every now and then, but not like Kirby or Metaknight.

 

[Huggles828]

I think we have a ton of info on Yoshi now and need to make a decision on numbers and move on.

It seems pretty clear it is in Yoshi's favor at least slightly. Personally, I have a lot of respect for Crow! and if he thinks the matchup is 45-55 Yoshi's favor I am willing to accept his judgment, especially since he plays both Link and Yoshi. I don't think it is any worse than 40-60 for Link.

 

[IYM!]

i agree with you huggles


(sorry for dont say anything important)

 

[Rizen]

A Yoshi who knows how to set up grabs and chaingrab has a 60-40 advantage, in my opinion. That wasn't a big factor in the last discussion but it really hurts Link. 55-45 Yoshi, being optimistic for Link.

 

[Drigo Toes]

I agree with all of you... 60-40 for yoshi... or 55-45 in the best case.