Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[fromundaman]

**** that.
Ganondorf? Captain Falcon? both in Link's advantage. and he's actually pretty even with Snake. he outcamps Snake, and he's easy to hit with zair.

True that!

Link vs Ganon is fun though. Ganon has to work to make anything work, but it's nowhere near a lost cause like 80% of his other matchups .

But yeah... anyway... Kirby!

 

[BRLNK88]

True that!

Link vs Ganon is fun though. Ganon has to work to make anything work, but it's nowhere near a lost cause like 80% of his other matchups .

But yeah... anyway... Kirby!

It's not far from being a lost cause. Even Ganondorf mains will tell you its 65:35 Link. They'll also tell you the Sheik match-up is 95:05, which is just
If Sheik were actually that good, Zelda would just stay in her alter-ego form 24/7...
But its amazing the zair/projectile combos that work on him. Course nothing beats the amazing combos that work on DK. Unfortunately when DK gets in our grill, theres not much we can do.
Anyways, theres not much else to say about Kirby. If ur facing a decent one, its a lost cause even before the match starts. He can just gimp us with any aerial, and then lulz. Just use someone else against him. Tink isn't too bad, though still at a disadvantage.

 

[Lawz.]

**** that.
Ganondorf? Captain Falcon? both in Link's advantage. and he's actually pretty even with Snake. he outcamps Snake, and he's easy to hit with zair.

no it's still snake's favor. Link won't be able to spam forever. and snake will kill Link quicker as well as live longer.

 

[fromundaman]

no it's still snake's favor. Link won't be able to spam forever. and snake will kill Link quicker as well as live longer.

Well, I think he means that while it's not completely even, but still close. I actually used to disbelieve this until I saw Finn7's Link nearly beat Ally in a set (I think it was a $1 MM) at C4 Galore.

 

[Anonano]

It's not far from being a lost cause. Even Ganondorf mains will tell you its 65:35 Link. They'll also tell you the Sheik match-up is 95:05, which is just
If Sheik were actually that good, Zelda would just stay in her alter-ego form 24/7...
But its amazing the zair/projectile combos that work on him. Course nothing beats the amazing combos that work on DK. Unfortunately when DK gets in our grill, theres not much we can do.
Anyways, theres not much else to say about Kirby. If ur facing a decent one, its a lost cause even before the match starts. He can just gimp us with any aerial, and then lulz. Just use someone else against him. Tink isn't too bad, though still at a disadvantage.

Forgive me, but wrong. I actually think Kirby isn't too bad of a match-up anymore. He's still bad (who isn't for Link?) but not one of Links top 5, say.

Where to begin? Ah, Kirby's combo! Unless you can do some 4srs mindgames, expect about 40% damage from the combo. Ouch, you just took 40% damage!
...And now what are Kirby's options?
He can get you off stage and gimp you. ...So, how is he going to get you offstage?
Its easier said then done. In facing a competent Kirby, the only move that effectively gets me offstage is fsmash. And that's mostly effective only when I am forced to land in front of him; the only opportunity he has to hit me is my landing lag.
The key is to keep mobile. Utilize your spamming and mindgames to their fullest; Kirby just can't keep up. Its a game of keep away, and Link has the tools to do it against Kirby.

Can't Kirby duck your projectiles?
Only if you aren't playing your projectiles and spacing game well. Admittedly, you have to be doing a fairly bad job if he feels he can afford to duck and mock you.
Only fsmash has the speed, length, strength, and knockback trajectory to take you offstage so that he CAN gimp you. Theoretically, a Link should be able to DI downwards and whiplash back to the stage, but through my slow thought process (...Wait, I can teth--*gimp*) I haven't been able to do it more than once every four times.

Mostly I fear the Kirbycide. Once he has you, there is no escape.

Kirby has a fearsome offstage game, damage buildup combo, a pathetically funny suicidal-but-not-fatal suicide move, and a decent move for knocking you offstage (ONE move). Unfortunately, this alone is enough to put it in Kirby's favor. But not quite as much in his favor as I once feared.

Pretty much, you need to be able to move a control stick around really fast, do some FF nairs, and have faster reactions than me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E49ggUg8sM

As this video shows by my flame choke tech chasing, a third grader can have better reactions than myself.

Ta-da, my stuff on teh G-Kirb.

 

[-Mars-]

It's not far from being a lost cause. Even Ganondorf mains will tell you its 65:35 Link. They'll also tell you the Sheik match-up is 95:05, which is just
If Sheik were actually that good, Zelda would just stay in her alter-ego form 24/7...
.

Seeing as how Sheik can just duck under Ganon's entire moveset and pull out the chain and just sit there......I think they might know just a little bit about the matchup that you don't.

Oh and I forgot to mention the tilt lock.

 

[fromundaman]

Forgive me, but wrong. I actually think Kirby isn't too bad of a match-up anymore. He's still bad (who isn't for Link?) but not one of Links top 5, say.

Where to begin? Ah, Kirby's combo! Unless you can do some 4srs mindgames, expect about 40% damage from the combo. Ouch, you just took 40% damage!
...And now what are Kirby's options?
He can get you off stage and gimp you. ...So, how is he going to get you offstage?
Its easier said then done. In facing a competent Kirby, the only move that effectively gets me offstage is fsmash. And that's mostly effective only when I am forced to land in front of him; the only opportunity he has to hit me is my landing lag.
The key is to keep mobile. Utilize your spamming and mindgames to their fullest; Kirby just can't keep up. Its a game of keep away, and Link has the tools to do it against Kirby.

Can't Kirby duck your projectiles?
Only if you aren't playing your projectiles and spacing game well. Admittedly, you have to be doing a fairly bad job if he feels he can afford to duck and mock you.
Only fsmash has the speed, length, strength, and knockback trajectory to take you offstage so that he CAN gimp you. Theoretically, a Link should be able to DI downwards and whiplash back to the stage, but through my slow thought process (...Wait, I can teth--*gimp*) I haven't been able to do it more than once every four times.

Mostly I fear the Kirbycide. Once he has you, there is no escape.

Kirby has a fearsome offstage game, damage buildup combo, a pathetically funny suicidal-but-not-fatal suicide move, and a decent move for knocking you offstage (ONE move). Unfortunately, this alone is enough to put it in Kirby's favor. But not quite as much in his favor as I once feared.

Pretty much, you need to be able to move a control stick around really fast, do some FF nairs, and have faster reactions than me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E49ggUg8sM

As this video shows by my flame choke tech chasing, a third grader can have better reactions than myself.

Ta-da, my stuff on teh G-Kirb.

You know, we have more than just one combo, as well as more than one way to get you offstage. Bair can get you offstage just as well as Fsmash, and is more likely to hit. At higher percents, Ftilt will get you offstage as well. On top of that, many of our aerials chain into each other, and because of that, Fair is also a viable way of getting you offstage.
Inhaling and just walking offstage then just spitting you out works too, and hammer does as well, though hammer does make edgeguarding a bit harder (Still easy, but less so.).

As for being able to cancel a lot of our moves Knockback via tether: Yeah, it's possible, but odds are you won't be getting that consistently, and most people won't at all (though we are talking about highest level of play, so the second arguement is null.). Even if you do, you're now at the edge, which isn't exactly a great position for you vs Kirby.

For this reason, Dsmash and second hit hammer are also pretty decent for knocking you offstage, though not as good as the others.

At lower percents, Bthrow can get you offstage as well.

Basically, no, we do have options for raking up damage after a Gonzo (which is rarely used anymore since every character can SDI out after 18%.), or more likely, Dthrow combos, and a whole lot more options than you mention for getting you offstage.

 

[BRLNK88]

Well, I think he means that while it's not completely even, but still close. I actually used to disbelieve this until I saw Finn7's Link nearly beat Ally in a set (I think it was a $1 MM) at C4 Galore.

Yes, thats what I meant. Though I was actually thinking of Deva's Link vs DSF's Snake. He then beat DSF's MK.

I think they might know just a little bit about the matchup that you don't.

Dude, I'm not saying I didn't realize the match-up is abysmal, I'm saying it shocked me that its THAT abysmal. I mean, think about it. NINETY-FIVE to FIVE, thats ****ing crazy. And you'd think it'd at least be against a top tier character, but its against Sheik.

 

[Anonano]

My apologies then, Fromundaman.
I've faced several Kirbys and none of them have been able to land much other than fsmash on me. Bair certainly does work, but I've found that I'm able to powershield it most of the time. It really is about keeping mobile and avoid getting too high in the air where Kirby really can kick Link's trash.

I've also found that I can generally beat Kirbys in regards to spacing, and am able to DI out of most of Kirby's aerials.

The Gonzo combo can just mindgame into usmash and stuff. I guess I generalized Kirby's grab game as the "grab combo." So what I was referring to was the dthrow to utilt, the grabs that link into usmash, and then the grabs that lead into fair as well. So thanks for helping me clear that up.

I've mentioned the Kirbycide, that thing is again my worst fear ever. In an MM, the Kirby knocked me down one stock, then sucked me up at the edge and walked off at 0% to KO me. That thing is just murder.
At the edge, aside from the Kirbycide and dair spike (and stagespikes, although that fear really counts for everyone) Link has some options to counter Kirby. ledgehopped dairs and FFed nairs, releasing the ledge to pull out a fair, shooting an arrow or boomerang out there to knock Kirby away, or mindgaming with the tether or hopping under the ledge all give him options. In general however the point is for Link to get away from the ledge, and so it really is a dangerous position for Link there anyway. The Kirbycide alone proves that, not taking into account what will happen if Kirby does indeed succeed at knocking you away from the stage. But its not as if Link should just give up there, because making it back onstage is still a probability.

My whole point with this, however, is to note that Kirby is NOT an instant-death matchup if played right. Still is bad.

Also, your argument is NOT null during a tournament, and you have a very valid point by including it. I almost always forget about the tether completely during the matches (as I've already said). But when I do try, I usually get the ledge about one out of every four times. A Kirby can count on their attacks to force Link offstage if they connect. Whiplash recovery should be considered the exception, not the rule.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dude, I'm not saying I didn't realize the match-up is abysmal, I'm saying it shocked me that its THAT abysmal. I mean, think about it. NINETY-FIVE to FIVE, thats ****ing crazy. And you'd think it'd at least be against a top tier character, but its against Sheik.

Top tier =/= **** match-up.

Some characters just have some qualities that make the match-ups that bad. Shiek has her tilt locks, Pikachu has his D-throw chain grab, Ice climbers have their infinites, DDD has his infinites, Lucario has his D-air, Mk his Tornado, etc.

Some qualities that either the character doesn't have tools to handle or rather limited/risky ones that create these scenarios.

~

As for the match-up.

Kirby is tough, but he is not one of Link hardest match-ups.

Kirby is the same as MK int he sense if he gets you off stage, get back on ASAP. Kirby does have tools to get us off stage in the forms of Fsmash, Hammer, and Bair.

Hammer shouldn't be too much trouble, but I've played Kirbys who are very good at mixing it up with their game, making it much harder to see it coming. Fsmash is very fast and has great killing potential, I personally think Kirby has one of the best Fsmashs in the game. Bair is good air control, thankfully Link can outrange this move.

Camp while you can, granted Kirby can swallow you for arrows be glad he took those rather than bombs. Link can live long provided you don't get gimped. Never stay still, it makes it easier for Kirby to space and time his attacks. This is a given for any match-up but this is one where staying in one spot is a very bad idea.

For stages, avoid Rainbow Cruise, Lylat, and Defino. Stick to Norfair and Final Destination for this one.

65-35 Kirby

 

[fromundaman]

No need to apologize. I misunderstood you and vice versa I think.

And after all, this sort of thing is exactly what MU threads are for.


Indeed, Link can outspace Kirby, and that is one of his biggest strengths in this matchup after his projectile game IMO.

It's good that you're aware of our other grab combos. Most people seem to still think Gonzo A) works and B) is our only grab follow-up option.

Indeed, Kirbicide can be bad, but usually easy to see coming. Also, at that low of a percent, button mashing should get you out of it too fast for us to even take you offstage, unless we were offstage when we inhaled you, in which case *most* people can recover, but I'm not sure about Link since his recovery is pretty momentum based...


Ugh... Ledge-hopped Dairs scare me... As do Dairs OoS. Thing is, Kirby dies easily off the top, so if you hit him with one of those, he's as good as dead.
But yeah, Link can definitely get back, but if he's at the ledge, he'd better not stay there.

Indeed, it's definitely not an instant death, but it's still pretty bad.

Okay, that's good to know. I've a;ways feared that when I finally play a great Link, they'll piss me off to no end by tethering everything I do to get them offstage.


To me, this matchup kind of feels like Mario vs Link in the sense that it's a pain in the *** to actually get in against a good Link, but once we do, we're going to do a lot of damage before we get out.

So basically, keep moving, and keep us out with good spacing and projectiles. Also, take advantage of the fact Kirby players probably have no idea what to do against a good Link since I seem to be the only one to have bothered to come in here, and most of them care very little about low tier matchups it seems (You should have seen the controversy in the Ganon/Kirby MU discussion...)

Also, Kirby players also seem to like Pictochat, JJ, PS1, PS2, and Brinstar (though that one's not a good idea vs Link) as well as the stages you mentioned, though we generally perform well on most stages.

Norfair and FD are probably your best bets.
Oh, and when stage-striking, strike YI(B) if you don't like it, because unlike most, we won't, as we like that stage.

*sigh* If only Link and Ganon didn't suck so hard...

 

[Anonano]

What I've found is that Kirby can just inhale, walk offstage, and footstool Link. This was at 0%. In my earnest opinion, its the most scary thing since sliced brea-- I mean, clowns. D3's CG scares me less than the Kirbycide. xD
For Link, everything is easy to see coming, but hard to stop. He's just too slow and laggy sometimes. Pull out that SH Inhale at the edge, and chances are that you'll nab us.

The ledgehop dair IS scary... but even you would be surprised at how ineffective it is. Link mains will rarely, if ever, pull that thing out. Missing will just be too hefty a price tag against a character like Kirby.
Link is bottom tier for very good reasons. Be aware that while he is capable of inflicting pain, most of the things that frighten you are simply the unknown. You've never faced a pro Link, so you've never really learned just how badly most of his "scary" techniques fail.
For every AT or technique he has, there is a counter. Link's only real virtue is that he has so many ridiculous mindgames; Link mains have to be at their most clever, 100% of the time, to come even with pros of other characters. Its why we have become masters of DI, spacing, mindgames, recovery, and pseudo-combos.
But if you know how to fight Link, then you really shouldn't be afraid of him. I'd be more afraid of how good the player must be to think he can use Link effectively.

 

[fromundaman]

What I've found is that Kirby can just inhale, walk offstage, and footstool Link. This was at 0%. In my earnest opinion, its the most scary thing since sliced brea-- I mean, clowns. D3's CG scares me less than the Kirbycide. xD
For Link, everything is easy to see coming, but hard to stop. He's just too slow and laggy sometimes. Pull out that SH Inhale at the edge, and chances are that you'll nab us.

Ah, that...

Well, the thing is, it's not guaranteed on Link. I mean, it's still scary for you guys, but basically we have to guess which way you'll DI when you get out and DI that way while spamming jump the moment you break free (and I believe we have to be falling straight down. That's the case for most of our inhale break footstools anyway, though maybe moving sideways slightly would make it guaranteed? (It does on Snake) Sadly, I can't test this atm... ah well.).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sorry for not posting, I've been on vacation for a week.

Anyways I'm open to idea of who to do next.

Snake, Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, Lucario

Those are the main ones I want to cover, bu tI'd rather hear what other people want to cover.

 

[Xyro77]

Are you cats still talkin about Samus vs Link? I would like ot throw in my 2 cents as well as some WIFI vids of me vs legan(if you guys even want to see them) that i got today. The videos would NOT be posted for me to brag(simply because i have WAAAAY too much respect for low tier mains)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

AiB talked about Samus, we didn't yet.

I was going to wait for other Links to say who they wanted to review, but I'll just save it for next time.

We'll do Samus now.

 

[Xyro77]

AiB talked about Samus, we didn't yet.

I was going to wait for other Links to say who they wanted to review, but I'll just save it for next time.

We'll do Samus now.

You dont have to do it because of me or anything. I wasnt trying to force you to choose. Im sorry

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You dont have to do it because of me or anything. I wasnt trying to force you to choose. Im sorry

It's better if we do it if AiB did it. We need to be able to discuss with them with we ever go over there.

That's and I've heard some people question the match-up if it was truly a neutral match-up for Link.

Don't feel bad like you forced this, I'm just impatient and want people to post, lol.

 

[Xyro77]

ok. ill write an article up for you guys tonite and finish it tomorrow. As a head up i think it is in Samus favor but not by much.

 

[-Mars-]

6-4 Samus advantage. Primarily because of a better spam game and ****** Link offstage.

 

[Xyro77]

LINK vs SAMUS

Now before i go into the aspects of this match-up i want you people to ASSUME some things.

1. BOTH players know the match-up. Like they play it every day.
2. BOTH players are at the TOP of thier field in thier character.
3. LUCK is NOT a factor(tripping, random falling through stages....ect)





Match-up Ratio: 55-45 Samus favor.



Spam: Both side of this battle will see lots and lots of spam. However, there are advantages and disadvantage to both sides of spam.

SAMUS SPAM:

Samus can flat out spam better than link, now when i say BETTER i ONLY mean it as FASTER. We can fire 2 types of missles, one of which is lock on( we can missle cancel BOTH missles out of short hop and full hop). Our CHARGE SHOT can be fire along with our Z-air(2.5 times longer than yours) which also auto cancels at split second we touch round. CHARGE SHOT and ZAIR goes through boomerangs and arrows.


LINK SPAM: Even though link cannot spam faster than Samus, i believe Links spam is more USEFUL overall than samus spam. You bombs are considered items(this means it stops MISSLES and CHARGE SHOT). Your boomerang can obviously bring us towards you when we dont want it to happen and it can also push us away when we dont want it to. Your Zair is shorter than ours but it does more damage(ours does 4% or 7%). Your arrows are omega gay because it can hit our toes EVEN THOUGH we are shielding.



MELEE combat: To be honest, Link wins this area BIG TIME.


SAMUS MELEE OPTIONS: We KO with D-tilt/Charge Shot and Dair. F-smash and D-smash will be to weak to KO by the time a KO is needed so basicaly we KO upwards. Our jab is little range and our 2nd jab is MEGA slow.

LINK MELEE OPTIONS: You can KO earlier than us. You can spike/kill upwards/ fowards with MULTIPLE moves. Your Usmash and Utilt cover BOTH SIDES of your body. Your OOS up+b CAN KO! To comppliment ALL of this, your range is better than ours.



RECOVERY:

As YOU know, link has a BIG problem with recovery. His jumps and slow and low and his UP+B is slow and low. It can be gimped easier than pushing an old man with a walker down stairs. Its flat out HORRIBLE. To top it off, your tether isnt long so its next to useless as well as your bomb jump ability. Samus on the other hand can run off the stage and attack then have time to UP+B back to the stage. If you are REALLY far out there we can use our double jump and UP+B. We can bomb jump to stall and/or recover. Our tether is MOTHA F-ing HUGE so we can attack you while u hang on the ledge AND still grapple on to it immediatly afterwords.


STAGES:

Whats funny is, just about ANY stage you guys are good on, so is samus. However, i recommend you take us to JAPES. YES you can die if u hit the water but so do we. Yes we can camp the side but so can you. What it boils down to is WHO can KO the earliest(link) and who can KO horizantaly the best(link) on that stage.





OVERALL Though you win in the melee department and in the KO department, Samus can outspam you(due to our spam speed) and can gimp the **** out of you the split second you are off stage(ask legan about this). Since you guys do good on stages link BF and FD it kinda cancels out because samus does good on those EXACT stages. I STILL give the nod of 55-45(samus favor) due to the fact our speedy spam can shut down ALOT of link spam and links spam is HALF the battle.

 

[Legan]

^ My name is Legan, and I approve this post

 

[-Mars-]

Good post Xyro. I pretty much agree with everything you put in your matchup assessment.

 

[Onomanic]

Yeah the Link match up between Samus and him is close but it does come down to Samus's favor. I spent an entire summer (last summer) playing against a Samus main.

 

[Violent-nin]

Good post, I have to agree. While the match-up is a lot more closer than Links other match-ups it's still more in favor of Samus.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Xyro has the match-up covered quite well.

Japes is something I didn't think was a good idea at first with it being easier for Samus to camp.

Norfair is a good choice, we can camp that stage better and it helps our killing.

 

[Xyro77]

Xyro has the match-up covered quite well.

Japes is something I didn't think was a good idea at first with it being easier for Samus to camp.

Norfair is a good choice, we can camp that stage better and it helps our killing.

Well when dealing with CP stages i kinda look at it in a few ways:

1. I have an advantage on XYZ stage, LETS GO!
2. Man all of my CP are his too.....not cool.
3. Hmmm he banned my best CP stage, lets go to XYZ stage because i know HE will do worse on that stage than i would, LETS GO!!!!!


Even though samus AND link can DIE easy on that stage and we BOTH can camp hard on that stage, some times you gotta look at WHO does WORSE. In our case, samus does.


Now about norfair, i disagree you guys can out-camp or camp BETTER. You can kill easier though but IMO i wouldnt try to take a samus there.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well enough of my hiatus.

I think Xyro covered the match-up well and if I ever do an export, I'm probably going to copy and paste that post with some other tid bits.

So as asked before,

Snake, Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, Lucario

Your choice.

 

[00000]

Game and Watch.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

I just wanted to add real quick that I think Brinstar is a good CP for Link against Samus, she won't have too much room to maneuver on stage that you can't get to which will make her spam game less effective. Her zair will be the main thing to watch for on this stage as it can hit either of the side platforms from the whole other platform. Also small blast zones on the top and sides will make killing a bit easier and hopefully the acid will keep Link from getting gimped/spiked.

Edit: I agree with Xyro's matchup ratio, I main Link and secondary Samus so this one of my favorite matchups.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You know, I'm just going to go with G&W since only one person bothered to reply. :/

Game & Watch is a go.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ok vs G&W, basically it's one of those "please don't get hit" matchups for Link. G&W can combo the crap out of Link and is one of the best characters at edgeguarding him with his amazing disjointed lingering hitboxes. Basically on an offensive basis, Link gets destroyed by G&W very quickly. Link also is not very good at KOing, making this matchup even more of a drag for Link. His low KO power in general makes it very difficult to reliably KO G&W when G&W is able to Bucket Brake most of his stuff to potentially survive to 180% most stocks. The only way you're KOing G&W at respectable percents is with D-air or the 2nd hit of a fresh F-smash.

So anyhow you have projectiles, Z-air, and stuff. None of them really help combo into any KO moves, but they are nice at maintaining some breathing room. Well, until you realize that G&W hits through arrows and boomerangs like nobody's business. Z-air is more tricky for G&W, but on a powershield, watch out. F-air out of shield generally punishes most of Link's stuff in close range too. Also don't think you can shieldgrab him all the time. Good G&Ws know how to cross up their approach. Bombs are also alright, but don't try throwing them downwards when he's below you. It doesn't work if he just Up-Bs or U-airs. And G&W might catch them in the middle of his aerial rush too.

So basically at least 65/35 G&W or something. Link doesn't last long enough against G&W to do much of anything.

 

[Lawz.]

Ok vs G&W, basically it's one of those "please don't get hit" matchups for Link. G&W can combo the crap out of Link and is one of the best characters at edgeguarding him with his amazing disjointed lingering hitboxes. Basically on an offensive basis, Link gets destroyed by G&W very quickly. Link also is not very good at KOing, making this matchup even more of a drag for Link. His low KO power in general makes it very difficult to reliably KO G&W when G&W is able to Bucket Brake most of his stuff to potentially survive to 180% most stocks. The only way you're KOing G&W at respectable percents is with D-air or the 2nd hit of a fresh F-smash.

So anyhow you have projectiles, Z-air, and stuff. None of them really help combo into any KO moves, but they are nice at maintaining some breathing room. Well, until you realize that G&W hits through arrows and boomerangs like nobody's business. Z-air is more tricky for G&W, but on a powershield, watch out. F-air out of shield generally punishes most of Link's stuff in close range too. Also don't think you can shieldgrab him all the time. Good G&Ws know how to cross up their approach. Bombs are also alright, but don't try throwing them downwards when he's below you. It doesn't work if he just Up-Bs or U-airs. And G&W might catch them in the middle of his aerial rush too.

So basically at least 65/35 G&W or something. Link doesn't last long enough against G&W to do much of anything.

Um....Link has good KO power. I have no idea where you got that from. There are a few moves that Link can KO with. Link can kill G&W with a few moves like fsmash, dair, dsmash, and ftilt. And with Link's KO power G&W will NOT be living to 180% even with bucket braking. At best he'll be living till maybe 120%. Apparently you have no understanding of Link's power.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Um....Link has good KO power. I have no idea where you got that from. There are a few moves that Link can KO with. Link can kill G&W with a few moves like fsmash, dair, dsmash, and ftilt. And with Link's KO power G&W will NOT be living to 180% even with bucket braking. At best he'll be living till maybe 120%. Apparently you have no understanding of Link's power.

Nice try, all those moves Link has have below average KO power.

Link is actually one of the weakest characters in the game overall. There is almost never a time when he is able to KO his opponent before 130% without landing the incredibly situational D-air or 2nd hit of F-smash. His Smashes are all better damage dealers than they are KO moves. As for D-air, good luck landing that on a G&W at KO percents when he can U-air/Up-B through it

When you factor in stale moves, it only gets worse from there for Link. Link's damage dealing game....quite literally is crippled when you take away those moves. His projectile game doesn't rack damage very fast, and none of his other moves are very reliable in any sense at damaging G&W.

So the best case scenario against a good G&W is that he'll mess him up a few times with some pro spacing with Z-air and Smashes, then struggle massively to get the KO at all, while G&W can focus on getting him offstage with some well-timed F-airs and then edgeguarding with Chef, D-air, F-air, etc which all easily deny Link access from the ledge in most situations.

 

[Anonano]

Nice try, all those moves Link has have below average KO power.

Link is actually one of the weakest characters in the game overall. There is almost never a time when he is able to KO his opponent before 130% without landing the incredibly situational D-air or 2nd hit of F-smash. His Smashes are all better damage dealers than they are KO moves.

When you factor in stale moves, it only gets worse from there for Link. Link's damage dealing game....quite literally is crippled when you take away those moves. His projectile game doesn't rack damage very fast, and none of his other moves are very reliable in any sense at damaging G&W.

Lawz, he has a point, even though he is still wrong.

Link doesn't kill until the hundreds, regularly. However, when he hits, he hits hard. Most of his moves and pseudo combos do anywhere from 10-60%. Several good hits mean the opponent is going to be in KO percentages.
Other characters tend to kill and gimp at lower percentages, but Link can knock an opponent up to his KO range just as quickly.

 

[AfroTwist ShadowPie]

@A2ZOMG: Link's Dair kills GnW at 71% on FD. And with two moves that goes through it, good luck NOT getting hit.

But I'm gonna tell you something. This match-up has already been discussed by the real Link mains so there's no need for you to argue about it! =D

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lawz, he has a point, even though he is still wrong.

Link doesn't kill until the hundreds, regularly. However, when he hits, he hits hard. Most of his moves and pseudo combos do anywhere from 10-60%. Several good hits mean the opponent is going to be in KO percentages.
Other characters tend to kill and gimp at lower percentages, but Link can knock an opponent up to his KO range just as quickly.

....you're not doing 60% strings with Link unless you can get someone to do something as stupid as landing into both hits of F-smash twice...G&W for that matter has better strings that can rack damage with his N-air alone which has virtually zero ending lag. Then his D-throw techchase, while not as good as Snake's, still combos into a free regrab, dash attack, or aerial on prediction.

And besides, most of Link's combos involve him using up a KO move. Even if those moves were fresh, he would still have to wait until at least 120% before he could consider KOing anything reliably. And 0-60 strings simply don't happen more than once on the same stock (partly due to stale moves affecting damage, partly due to comboing not working at those percents well).

By the way I already told you, G&W's Up-B and U-air are the reason you shouldn't D-air. G&W's Up-tilt also probably beats it. Another thing, his D-air doesn't even kill that early when you factor DI, the fact it weakens the longer it is out...

 

[GreyClover]

This is going to be about one of the rarest times I'll post here.

60:40 or 55:45 at the lowest.

Link actually does fairly well against G&W. Bucket is useless aganist our projectiles and Zair pretty much destroys GnW from approaching. Though that's still not going to keep G&W at bay forever, once he gets in close you're going to get punished, alot. A2ZOMG G&W can't kill us fairly easy than you say, regular Link's with good DI can survive to the 140% now if you're facing one of the top Link's like Deva or Arkive than it goes up to like 180%. Sure G&W can DI pretty good though remember he's one the lightest characters in the game.

Anyways overall G&W is high tier, Link is not, that's about the only reason why it's not even or in Link's favor other than his recovery.

Edit: But seriously go back to the Mario boards son.

Edit2: OMG Camalange I <3 u

 

[Anonano]

....you're not doing 60% strings with Link unless you can get someone to do something as stupid as landing into both hits of F-smash twice...G&W for that matter has better strings that can rack damage with his N-air alone which has virtually zero ending lag. Then his D-throw techchase, while not as good as Snake's, still combos into a free regrab, dash attack, or aerial on prediction.

And nothing Link has has anything to do with prediction. And landing fsmash twice at 0-10%? Simply unbelievable. I won't hear a word of it. Fsmash can combo at really low percents? Simply impossible.

Oh, and of course, G&W's dthrow. I mean seriously, what has Link got to compete with that? Link can't do anything. I mean, its not like a Link main could possibly predict anything himself, he doesn't have anything at all that could compete with a G&W's prediction with dthrow.

Oh and KO moves? I thought you were just talking about how Link doesn't have any KO moves? Sorry man, Link doesn't have any KO moves at all. I mean, not even dair is a KO move or anything, Link has no possible way to compete with G&W. Its just completely hopeless for Link.

This matchup is clearly 95:5 G&Ws favor, case officially closed, next matchup please Red Ryu.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is going to be about one of the rarest times I'll post here.

60:40 or 55:45 at the lowest.

Link actually does fairly well against G&W. Bucket is useless aganist our projectiles and Zair pretty much destroys GnW from approaching. Though that's still not going to keep G&W at bay forever, once he gets in close you're going to get punished, alot. A7ZOMG G&W has more KO power than Link compared to other matchups. If you're fighting against each other then it changes. Regular Link's with good DI can survive to the 140% now if you're facing one of the top Link's like Deva or Arkive than it goes up to like 180%. Sure G&W can DI pretty good though remember he's one the lightest characters in the game.

Anyways overall G&W is high tier, Link is not, that's about the only reason why it's not even or in Link's favor other than his recovery.

You don't even need to outright KO Link. All you have to do is tap him lightly with a F-air, and this will almost always kill his recovery and result in an edgehog.

G&W's F-air is the reason why he destroys Link so quickly. There is very little Link can do to avoid it, and taking any light hit offstage gets him gimped. And then F-air out of shield also pretty severely punishes a lot of what Link can do. That one move is basically the anti-Link recovery move for all intents and purposes really.

As for projectiles...G&W just hits through them. Or catching/U-airing bombs works too. Link's Z-air is also only safe on the retreat, which is something that G&W aims for in this matchup.

And no really, Link's KO power is pathetic. One of the worst in the game before someone like Sonic's. I'm not really exaggerating. The only KO moves that Link has that have any respectable knockback are D-air, and the 2nd hit of F-smash (not to mention fully charged Up-B). All those options are very difficult to land on a good G&W, and then you're only barely going to manage to KO him before 140% with anything else that manages to be fresh (difficult task considering that unfortunately, some of his best KO moves are essential damage dealers).

Basically against a G&W that doesn't screw up, he's the one that is outlasting Link.