ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
SAUS already answered this, but if Falco is sweetspotting his up-b from above the stage, you can always jump out and nair him before he "blasts off". Don't pigeonhole yourself into always edgeguarding from onstage, friend.
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Q&A Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion
- Thread starter dablackpacman
- Start date
Hunybear
Smash Ace
Question about Falco? Does Links FH go over the highest SHL?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It goes way over it. Either bombing from shield or full jumping over Falco and throwing the bomb down is pretty good. You can also SH away from Falco out of shield and throw a boomerang from close range. SH retreating nair/fair out of shield are reasonably viable too.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
Awesome. also is there any resource that has D-air kill %s? (Understandably its DI dependent) I find myself Dairing in platform tech chase situations, but not getting the KO.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You can nair to cover tech in place on the platform, then up-b the tech roll.
Dair on platforms kills most characters starting at around 100%. Though, it is obviously character, stage, and DI dependent.
Here's some tips about dair that may help you land those kills:
- Dair works like Link's nair where it hits harder in the initial hit frames and is weaker for the rest of the duration (you will notice the strong hit does 22% and the weak hit only does 19% - the knockback difference is also very noticable)
- Dair hits slightly away from Link (actually it's kind of a lot away from Link at I think 65 degree angle). It is like how Falco and Marth dairs send you slightly outward and it can be very important to hit with the right side. This has two applications:
1) When you dair someone, make sure to hit them so that they go off stage if they are near the ledge (hit them from the inner side of the stage so they fly off at 65 degree angle +- DI).
2) When someone might not die from a dair, try to hit right in the middle of them so that the appropriate DI angle is ambiguous (I think their best option is actually to just hold down, though - gives them okay DI on either side and they might just die off the side if they fully DI it lol).
Here's some tips about dair that may help you land those kills:
- Dair works like Link's nair where it hits harder in the initial hit frames and is weaker for the rest of the duration (you will notice the strong hit does 22% and the weak hit only does 19% - the knockback difference is also very noticable)
- Dair hits slightly away from Link (actually it's kind of a lot away from Link at I think 65 degree angle). It is like how Falco and Marth dairs send you slightly outward and it can be very important to hit with the right side. This has two applications:
1) When you dair someone, make sure to hit them so that they go off stage if they are near the ledge (hit them from the inner side of the stage so they fly off at 65 degree angle +- DI).
2) When someone might not die from a dair, try to hit right in the middle of them so that the appropriate DI angle is ambiguous (I think their best option is actually to just hold down, though - gives them okay DI on either side and they might just die off the side if they fully DI it lol).
Hunybear
Smash Ace
So I was playing around on the IKneeData melee Calculator and it seams that with the strong hit of Dair kills Fox, Falco at roughly 110%. off side platforms of BF with any DI. Falcon at roughly 125% at any DI.
Also I've been using dash attack to catch areal approaches recently and I've noticed at higher % on FF if they DI in higher than 100% it combo's into Dair, If they DI away they always end up off stage having to double jump or on a platform and have to tech. I know it's not the safest but i'm getting a lot of mileage out of it.
Also I've been using dash attack to catch areal approaches recently and I've noticed at higher % on FF if they DI in higher than 100% it combo's into Dair, If they DI away they always end up off stage having to double jump or on a platform and have to tech. I know it's not the safest but i'm getting a lot of mileage out of it.
Link's dash attack is actually amazing. The main problem with it is losing against CC / ASDI down and shield super hard. However, if you can land it, it is great at extending combos and punishing opponents for being the air. Option select the ASDI down and it is fantastic to keep Marth or Shiek stuck in the air.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
Yeah I almost never Dash attack grounded opponents unless it's a tech chase situation. I don't have the balls for it. cutting off SH areal approaches really mess up a lot of new and mid level players. Their so dependent on SHFFLing. I see how awkward it is when they try to play the grounded game or take to platforms.
Is there anything around the link boards about rest punishes? I read somewhere about throwing the rang and charging Fsmash. Hit with Fsmash1 then rang return kills KB momentum then hit puff with Fsmash 2.
Hunybear
There were some short posts about punishing rest here and here. However, I wouldn't hold that data as scripture; I don't know where their data originated nor how they developed it, and I don't know if it's been confirmed by any reliable source.
Anecdotally, I've found that around ~60-70%, and if the Puff's DI is nonexistent, you can pull off a hilt hitbox Dtilt followed by a Dair, which will kill due to the initial height the Puff achieves via the Dtilt. The most reliable punish is probably a fully charged hilt hitbox Dsmash. If you can't charge the Dsmash in time, I'd go for 2nd hit of Fsmash or a Dair (depending on the stage, percent, and location of Puff on the stage).
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There is info on rest punishes in the Link optimisation thread. Fully charged hilt hitbox d-smash is the strongest kill move. Otherwise, you can go for a dair DI trap like I described in my other post (super strong if they land on a platform or if it's on Yoshi's Story or something like that). For damage, the boomerang plus double f-smash is decent, but I still worry that they can cheese their way out of it if they hold down and shield the whole time. I usually just do a strong hit dair for the 22%.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
Is there a consistent setup for getting the strong Dsmash or do I just have to know the spacing?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I thought the second hit of Link's f-smash was his strongest KO move.
I think you just want to be as close as possible. You can test it out by just doing uncharged d-smashes and look for the one that does 17% (or the highest in case I remembered wrong). Just remember to reset your stale moves by SDing each time.
I am not sure if it is even possible to get the strong hitbox of the second f-smash hit on someone that is not moving. It is like a Roy hitbox where closer to the hilt is stronger. There is a 20% hitbox somewhere there and it MIGHT be stronger, but I'm pretty sure it also doesn't benefit from charging the smash.
D-smash has a good angle against Puff since she dies off the top more easily.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It does benefit from charging. For example, if you are punishing a Puff who just whiffed a rest, you can charge and space the f-smash so that only the second hit connects.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
I thought charge doesn't effect the second hit of Fsmash. It does 20/18% uncharged and full charge.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It definitely does. I've killed a sleeping Puff at like 75% after the hit by charging and landing the second hit of f-smash.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
Just tested it when I got home. Knock back and damage are same regulars less of charge. The only thing that matters is which hitbox connects.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Okay. Then the second hit uncharged is just super strong I guess.
Edit: are you sure it's not version-dependent?
Edit: are you sure it's not version-dependent?
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Hunybear
Smash Ace
I tested it in 1.02 and I downloaded a 1.00 ISO yesterday to try. It is not version dependent. Charging just doesn't effect the second hit. (IDK about pal butt it's probably the same)
On a side note I started punishing miss tech/ tech in place with u-tilt and it's magical. Also U-throw -> NIL on side platforms -> U-tilt is amazing and I use it a lot on falcon.
Also I learned yesterday that a instant DJ after wave landing off the side platforms on BF will let link NIL on the top platform. It's really tricky when the opponent has to tech on the top platform because they always (netplay people) tech away from whatever side platform you WL onto. It's really a free grab follow up if you get there I time.
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You can NIL on the top platform of battlefield by just jumping and double jumping at the right time. It's more convenient if you are near the middle of the stage. I like to do NIL up-tilt, grab, or up-b. Even dash attack is actually super good if they went to high to continue a combo and they try to drift beside the platform.
Second hit of f-smash is really strong. However, at 75%, I think fully charged d-smash will kill, anyway (probably depends on stage), and is easier to space. The f-smash might be a bit faster if you are tight for time, though. You can also just try a strong hit of dair.
Second hit of f-smash is really strong. However, at 75%, I think fully charged d-smash will kill, anyway (probably depends on stage), and is easier to space. The f-smash might be a bit faster if you are tight for time, though. You can also just try a strong hit of dair.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
Yeah I knew the FJ->DJ method as well. I just wanted to share the WL->DJ thing as well. It only works if you do your back jump tho because the back flip swishes links ECB enough to NIL. You can't WL forward DJ and NIL on top platform. :T
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Unless you still jump backwards
It is just harder to input.Also I forgot to mention about tech chasing with up-tilt. I prefer to use d-smash since it beats CC sooner, hits on the same frame as up-tilt, and it's easier to d-smash from standing since you just press c-stick down. You could hold up and then you don't need to worry about doing a small up input, but then it is slightly harder to dash to catch the tech rolls.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
Platform Canceled Aerials?
Does anyone actually do this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtiDd5cQWJc
So I never actually bothered practiced this until yesterday because I thought it would be to difficult to pull of mid match, come to find out they actually are no that difficult to do. I'm about 90% consistent In practice after a few hours and 70% consistent in match when I attempted to use this tech.
Im confused as to what the practical applications are for doing this aside from sick shield pressure. I have performed It out of a shield drop but im very inconsistent at getting the L-cancel OOS drop or even getting the platform cancel when I do. (tho if I could consistently shield drop -> platform cancel Up-air **** would get so real.) More practice I guess.
maybe Links should explore Platform cancels more or if we have can someone link(pun) me to that.
I heard abate makes good use of them, but I cant find an examples aside from shield pressure, maybe aMSa with his shield drop platform cancel aerials but I don't have an examples of him doing is either.
Does anyone actually do this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtiDd5cQWJc
So I never actually bothered practiced this until yesterday because I thought it would be to difficult to pull of mid match, come to find out they actually are no that difficult to do. I'm about 90% consistent In practice after a few hours and 70% consistent in match when I attempted to use this tech.
Im confused as to what the practical applications are for doing this aside from sick shield pressure. I have performed It out of a shield drop but im very inconsistent at getting the L-cancel OOS drop or even getting the platform cancel when I do. (tho if I could consistently shield drop -> platform cancel Up-air **** would get so real.) More practice I guess.
maybe Links should explore Platform cancels more or if we have can someone link(pun) me to that.
I heard abate makes good use of them, but I cant find an examples aside from shield pressure, maybe aMSa with his shield drop platform cancel aerials but I don't have an examples of him doing is either.
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I'm pretty sure he can get 9 frames of invincibility which is enough for:
up-tilt
d-smash
up-b
jab
roll / spot dodge
jump (but vulnerable before anything can come out including air dodge)
Though most of these are extremely frame tight if you rely on the invincibility. I usually just use it to get on stage with the ability to shield in case they will be able to hit me. I roll sometimes, but usually just try to find a way on stage that I don't have to shield.
Mix it up with hax dashes and you have a strong mixup. Ledge jump is also decent (it is like Ganon's where you can act fairly soon compared to most other characters) and other invincible ledge stalls can help keep them guessing.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I played a bunch of Link dittos yesterday, and I noticed that on the jab -> d-smash, I was getting shield stabbed by the d-smash almost every time. Does anybody know the exact setup for this? Can you get a guaranteed shield stab by doing something like fair on shield -> jab -> d-smash (in Link dittos)?
Link's d-smash is the most obnoxious move for shield stabbing. It stabs marth and peach on full shields I think lol - at least on nearly full shields. You just have to stand close to them.
Link's moves on shield are not positive enough to abuse it the way you want against most characters, but if Link can't up-b, I think fair -> d-smash may force him to roll, spot dodge, jump, or light shield. I think he can shield grab it on light shield, though.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Good to know. I'll try to incorporate more shield stab setups against the tall characters and ones with bad shields.
Rodrick Strickland
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2015
- Messages
- 23
As a player starting out as a link main, what should I focus on to understand to play a better link?
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Hunybear
Smash Ace
Is there a resource that tells us which characters are most susceptible to shield stabs? Maybe we should document it.
I'd say good spacing is the most important thing at the start aside from movement. I break the concept of spacing into zoning and positioning. Zoning meaning controlling space with moves and positioning by controlling space with movement and just being their. Tai's Marth guide on MIOM is a great resource that's highly applicable to Link.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
To be honest, being good with your aerials is simultaneously the hardest and most important thing with Link. Just practice using aerials like crazy. You need to know how to space them on shield and at what heights to throw them out. And also when to fast fall them.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
Speaking of areals. I knew that Sh > instant Nair auto cancels off side platforms, but on dream land you can Throw out another Nair befor landing. I double Naird someone's shield on Netplay two days ago and it was cool. (He shined me OOS tho and I got punished)
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I like late bairing behind shields and then u-tilting for pressure. I tend to favor u-tilting for shield pressure over d-smash because d-smash has a higher chance of being jumped over. Jab is pretty good for locking people in place too.
Defex
Smash Cadet
dont know if this is the right place to ask this or not but o well just looking for the answer.
Is it better to jump cancel grab or is there no difference from links dash grab im too lazy to check the data for myself.
Is it better to jump cancel grab or is there no difference from links dash grab im too lazy to check the data for myself.
Jump cancel is strictly better. Running grab hits one frame later than normal grab (though you lose 1 frame to jump cancel, so it comes up even). Running grab has something like 10 extra frames of end lag.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
The only characters you ever really want to dash grab instead of JC grab are ICs, Peach, and Yoshi in some situations.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
does
Also Marth against puff because she (it?) ducks under standing grab, but that info's not important here... idk why I post
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I don't know, but for some reason I keep trying to shield grab Marth's fair when I could just wavedash back and grab him for whiffing or stuff him with a dash attack. I like shielding for the threat of up-b out of shield, but with Link's bad jump squat, I feel like being in shield is pretty terrible most of the time.
His grab is also slower than most characters. Link has one of the worst shield games in the game lol. I try not to get into spots I need to shield.