List of anti-ledge camping moves:

[Excellence]

Olimar -
Grab: Reaches off the ledge and grabs people off.
F-Smash: Will fill at the edge knocking anyone hanging on off.
Side B: Pikmin will latch to anyone, anywhere, regardless what they're grabbing.
Purple Toss: Fat *** purples knock people off the ledge if thrown at the correct angle. Some characters are harder to knock off than others.

 

[B!squick]

Or fireballs, or PK thunder, or Din's Fire, or grenades, or bombs, or...

Luigi's Fireballs are absolute suck verse planking. Mario's would work alot better, but don't compare with TJolt. And since you're mentioning Fireballs, I'm going to take it as meaning both in general which is really lame compared to TJolt. I don't know about Kirby's though...

I don't know which PK Thunder you mean. Both have advantages and disadvantages and both leave you vulnerable.

Din's Fire can be ADed and I think most aerials beat it anyway.

Grenades... well, depends on how you use them.

Who's Bombs?

or... what?

Bair is a lot less safe than shooting a laser.

Laser would require you to be further away to avoid punishment and thus further off stage. NAir is probably best for R.O.B. now that I think of it.

Metaknight's sword for regular attacks has transcended priority, meaning it will outprioritize anything that doesn't outrange it. Bite would only work if you managed to trick the MK into not attacking.

Then there's your answer for most projectiles that even have a chance of hitting. TJolt's unique properties are what it amazing for counter Planking.

Olimar -
Grab: Reaches off the ledge and grabs people off.
F-Smash: Will fill at the edge knocking anyone hanging on off.
Side B: Pikmin will latch to anyone, anywhere, regardless what they're grabbing.
Purple Toss: Fat *** purples knock people off the ledge if thrown at the correct angle. Some characters are harder to knock off than others.

Planking =/= hanging of the ledge without invincibility like a ******... are you sure those would work against Planking? It doesn't seem like they would. :/

 

[Sosuke]

Toon Link's arrows can't stop planking in any way. o_O
They reach over the edge. They can't even hit someone planking.

His Dair works, but like..... I don't see that happening if the other player has a brain. >_>

 

[Hive]

Samus:

Ranged moves for hitting people hanging on the ledge:

Homing Missile- because of its curve if aimed right it can hit hit a person on the ledge. It is great to spam from a range, because it puts her at a safe distance, while hitting the ledge.

Fully Charged Low Charge Shot- its an AT that samus has when she is shooting her fully charged charge shot from the stage. If she shoots it at the right time before landing from a jump the charge shot actually comes out a bit lower than normal. The one basic use of this is that it is able to hit people hanging on the ledge now without incvincibility, from a range, with ko potential and good knockback.

Tippered Zairs- can hit people who are jumping up a little bit from the ledge well, and from a range (but not hanging on the ledge). A great spacing tool and good at stopping ledge approaches.

Close Range Options:

Utilt- has decent ko range and can hit people hanging on the ledge.

Dsmash on Yoshi's island- can also hit if you are on the tilted part of the stage before the ledges.

Dair- Is a good aerial to use against people on the ledge if you can pull off the hit-> it has a lingering hitbox, can spike, has good knockback and damage.

 

[Vyse]

Diddy: Run at the edge and charge barrels, LOL

Otherwise it's easy enough to simply face away at the edge and keep pulling the bananas. They come down in a perfect arc.

 

[bobson]

Then there's your answer for most projectiles that even have a chance of hitting. TJolt's unique properties are what it amazing for counter Planking.

Right, I forgot to mention: attacks with transcended priority don't clash AT ALL, which means any projectile will go right through them. (Think Falco's laser)

projectile stuff

Alright, you want an in-depth list? Keep in mind that you can spam all of these until the timer runs out, and all you need is enough hits to gain the percent lead back.

Flame breath (Charizard/Bowser): Shorthop into flame breath over the edge and there's little MK can do besides dropping down beneath it and flying around it, at which point you've stopped him from planking.

Bananas/Peanuts (Diddy Kong): Peanuts can be arced fairly close to the ledge and bananas can either be spawned or thrown toward him. Both can be caught, but you can mix it up.

Iceblocks (Ice Climbers): Fall right off the edge. Self-explanatory. They can be hit back, but desyncing cleverly or punishing MK if he uses fair should get at least a few hits in.

Razor Leaf (Ivysaur): I dunno about this one; no one cares about Ivysaur.

Bombs/Boomerangs/Arrows (Link/Toon Link): Bombs have a lot of freedom in their use; mix it up and you'll land one. Boomerangs are easily predicted, though, and probably won't hit. I'm not sure if arrows arc far enough to even hit someone planking.

PK Thunder (Ness/Lucas): They both work essentially the same as far as stopping a planker goes. You can mindgame with these. Start them from a safe distance, and you can run them into the floor and be out of the lag before MK can punish you.

PK Fire (Ness): Use it in the air and it'll shoot diagonally. Punishable.

PK Freeze (Lucas): Start it from a safe distance in the middle of the stage and MK won't be able to punish you. You can still see it coming a decade away, though, so it probably won't hit.

Fireballs (Mario): Fireballs > planking, simply. Just throw them at the edge all day. Luigi's screwed.

Thunderjolt (Pikachu): Yeah.

Arrows (Pit): Fire 'em up and loop 'em down on him. Plenty of opportunity for mindgames here.

Gyro (ROB): See the Links' bombs, although it takes longer to get out.

Bombs (Samus): Just jump above him and drop them on him.

Grenades (Snake): Toss them from the other side of the stage and use Snake's magic control of grenades to make them fall right over the edge.

Din's Fire (Zelda): MK's only answer to this is airdodging or ledge invincibility. You'll get one in eventually.



And Donkey Kong in no way has good options to deal with planking. The options you have listed there will work if the planker is blind and/or sleeping.

 

[Eddie G]

Oh my goodness...something Link potentially doesn't suck at completely...

But then again, the MK would probably prefer staying on the stage to **** him anyway, lol.

 

[DanGR]

Olimar -
Grab: Reaches off the ledge and grabs people off.
F-Smash: Will fill at the edge knocking anyone hanging on off.
Side B: Pikmin will latch to anyone, anywhere, regardless what they're grabbing.
Purple Toss: Fat *** purples knock people off the ledge if thrown at the correct angle. Some characters are harder to knock off than others.

Planking =/= hanging of the ledge without invincibility like a ******... are you sure those would work against Planking? It doesn't seem like they would. :/

The lowest angle a thrown purple pikmin will go when thrown over the ledge is about 50 degrees. For a yellow pikmin, which arches more, it flies at about a 60-70 degree angle below the ledge. In both instances, the Metaknight player can simply drop down to avoid both.

Olimar's grab will grab Metaknight if he sits on the ledge without invincibility, but I'm unsure whether or not it can grab him as he jumps up to "space" an autosnap to the ledge or whenever he drops down from being on the ledge. With good timing it may, but it probably needs testing.

Any non-purple pikmin can be used in a spaced fsmash to get MK to quit planking. An fsmash will send a pikmin offstage at a safe enough distance and a low enough angle for this to work. Purples don't work because the range on them when used in an fsmash isn't very great. It's unsafe to use them to edgeguard or to prevent planking. What the Metaknight player can do to prevent from getting hurt by this is drop down and upair the pikmin with correct timing. For this reason, fsmashing off the ledge won't work every time, it does work when fsmash is used a varied times. An example would be timing it to reach MK just after the invicibility frames from grabbing the ledge wear off.

When you take into account Olimar's long grab and fsmash range (which makes them safe to use when spaced correctly), their spammablility, the options MK has to deal with them, and the multitasking skills and timing required to avoid a quick barrage of these two attacks for more than about 20 seconds, you'll find that Olimar actually does decently well to deal with a planking Metaknight given his poor recovery.

In short, I would keep Olimar's "planking defense rating" or w/e you called it in the OP at yellow for now, but add his Fsmash and grab to his list of moves that can help deal with planking.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

By the way, Ness doesn't just have PK Thunder. His retreating fair does wonders for plankers and wait....PK FLASH. That is so good at edgeguarding because they HAVE to get back up on the stage or get OHKO'd.

 

[B!squick]

Flame breath (Charizard/Bowser): Shorthop into flame breath over the edge and there's little MK can do besides dropping down beneath it and flying around it, at which point you've stopped him from planking.

You can probably drop down for a little bit and just UpB through it as it loses steam. Though that's for Bowser. Charizard's Firebreath is trash. And MK can just Fly under most stages anyway to the other side putting you back at square one.

Bananas/Peanuts (Diddy Kong): Peanuts can be arced fairly close to the ledge and bananas can either be spawned or thrown toward him. Both can be caught, but you can mix it up.

Not great, but Diddy's best bet. Unless you want to Barrel Counter for lols like Vyse suggested.

Iceblocks (Ice Climbers): Fall right off the edge. Self-explanatory. They can be hit back, but desyncing cleverly or punishing MK if he uses fair should get at least a few hits in.

Eh...

Razor Leaf (Ivysaur): I dunno about this one; no one cares about Ivysaur.

DownB.

Bombs/Boomerangs/Arrows (Link/Toon Link): Bombs have a lot of freedom in their use; mix it up and you'll land one. Boomerangs are easily predicted, though, and probably won't hit. I'm not sure if arrows arc far enough to even hit someone planking.

Mostly just Bombs. 'Rang and Arrows are impractical.

PK Thunder (Ness/Lucas): They both work essentially the same as far as stopping a planker goes. You can mindgame with these. Start them from a safe distance, and you can run them into the floor and be out of the lag before MK can punish you.

Even if they Drillrush?

PK Fire (Ness): Use it in the air and it'll shoot diagonally. Punishable.

PK Fire probably doesn't have enough range or arc. MK can just flutter down and then back up.

PK Freeze (Lucas): Start it from a safe distance in the middle of the stage and MK won't be able to punish you. You can still see it coming a decade away, though, so it probably won't hit.

Right.

Fireballs (Mario): Fireballs > planking, simply. Just throw them at the edge all day. Luigi's screwed.

MK could still probably get around this. He can just, you know, fly away from the ledge.

Thunderjolt (Pikachu): Yeah.

Yep.

Arrows (Pit): Fire 'em up and loop 'em down on him. Plenty of opportunity for mindgames here.

This probably works fine.

Gyro (ROB): See the Links' bombs, although it takes longer to get out.

Gyro would work, yeah.

Bombs (Samus): Just jump above him and drop them on him.

Grenades (Snake): Toss them from the other side of the stage and use Snake's magic control of grenades to make them fall right over the edge.

Grenades are avoidable. If I can do it with Bowser, MK sure as hell can.

Din's Fire (Zelda): MK's only answer to this is airdodging or ledge invincibility. You'll get one in eventually.

Maybe.

And Donkey Kong in no way has good options to deal with planking. The options you have listed there will work if the planker is blind and/or sleeping.

Right.

And this isn't very in depth if that's what you're going for. There are many more characters.

 

[Ukemi]

Squirtle: Simply change Pokemon.

Luigi: Down Taunt if you're lucky I guess.

 

[Tristan_win]

I don't understand why sheik chain is not listed as green as it can beat every single option meta knight has safely and out of his striking distance. The only draw back is that it takes roughly 30 frames to manage to pull off plus spacing. IF someone is stalling on the ledge the chain will force them to stop.

 

[bobson]

Even if they Drillrush?

If you're far enough away.

MK could still probably get around this. He can just, you know, fly away from the ledge.

At which point I start shooting fireballs away from the ledge.

Grenades are avoidable. If I can do it with Bowser, MK sure as hell can.

Not one for the entire match?

And this isn't very in depth if that's what you're going for. There are many more characters.

This is just projectiles.

 

[B!squick]

At which point I start shooting fireballs away from the ledge.

And then he goes back to the ledge to refresh his 5 jumps. Though that's just MK, anyone with decent air mobility can get around them.

Not one for the entire match?

It was WiFi, so no. And I didn't say I avoided them the entire match, I just said they were avoidable.

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

missing the triple-D lol

(incase you cant understand the slang- talking about DeDeDe)

 

[Vyse]

With Diddy, it's actually reasonably easy to time a ledge cancelled across B into a Dair.
Chromepirate (ADHD) experimented with this a lot a long time ago.

Also with Diddy's barrels in general, if you charge and get hit, it's a special type of hitstun. Like the kind of knock back you get from being sent flying, even after teching along the ground.

Basically it means that if MK attacks Diddy while he's charging barrels, it won't cause a stage spike.

 

[XienZo]

Or fireballs, or PK thunder, or Din's Fire, or grenades, or bombs, or...

Tjolt's special in that it'll follow the ledge downward so a MK can't simply drop down, but has to move further away from the ledge. It also has a continuous hitbox unlike grenades, bombs, or din's fire. You can also fire them at varying rates unlike PK thunder, which goes at a slow one-at-a-time.

Metaknight's sword for regular attacks has transcended priority, meaning it will outprioritize anything that doesn't outrange it. Bite would only work if you managed to trick the MK into not attacking.

Bite's high priority is due to grab super armor, not any disjoint or regular high priority, and it'll eat up any attack.



Also, remember that MK can use specials to grab the ledge since tornade eats up almost all projectiles and cape is even more invincibility goodness.

 

[Ilucamy]

Have we discussed Falcon Kick and Wizards Foot? They both cancel at the edge if you space yourself correctly so you can attack immediately however you choose.

Might work :/ not sure though.

 

[XienZo]

Have we discussed Falcon Kick and Wizards Foot? They both cancel at the edge if you space yourself correctly so you can attack immediately however you choose.

Might work :/ not sure though.

Well, Shuttle Loop beats almost every single one of their attacks, so it might not be a good idea.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Dair into the ground for Falco is pretty tricky and it won't be able to hit people that don't peak a bit above the ledge. I think ledge hog > ledge drop > rising Dair would probably be more effective. Or maybe run off > Bair. There's also run off > reverse side b > edge hog. Semi-spikes; pretty instant; tons of invincibility.

 

[RPK]

Firebreath wont work...Trust me lol. If you let go and jump at the right time, he'll keep his invincibility frames, and then ledge snap back onto the ledge with no damage done to him. And you just keep doing that till you run out of fire.

@Hive
Those missiles wont work, because the Meta Knight will just drop and then a regrab the ledge to avoid the missile. Or he would have dropped far enough that it would mess up the trajectory of the homing missile. Utilt wont work, because if I see you starting an Utilt, Ill just let go and tornado you. Charge shot is really easy to see coming, so you just gotta drop to avoid it and regrab

Dins Fire works because you can control the time of when it goes off. So during the time it passes, it will be able to hit Meta Knight.

Bananas wont work because when they see that Banana falling, what is stopping them from going out and catching it, and using it against you?

Ice block might work if you alternate the timing slightly, but it shouldnt work if he's ledge snapping correctly.

Thunderjolt works well against it just because of it's size and how long it stays there.

Falcon Kick and Wizards foot both cancel at the ledge, but the Meta Knight can just let go and Uair before you even reach it to hit you out of it.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

olimar's DTilt works, but it's risky.

 

[RPK]

olimar's DTilt works, but it's risky.

Uair>>D-tilt

 

[Throwback]

there shouldn't be any character in red. If you can't handle ledgecamping it's not a problem with your character.

 

[bobson]

Bite's high priority is due to grab super armor, not any disjoint or regular high priority, and it'll eat up any attack.

Assuming the attack is not disjointed, like all of Metaknight's are, yes. You won't be able to bite him if he sticks his sword in your mouth first.

Also, remember that MK can use specials to grab the ledge since tornade eats up almost all projectiles and cape is even more invincibility goodness.

Tornado eats most projectiles, true, but if he uses it he's forced to land on the stage, where you can punish him. I'm not sure about drill rush or shuttle loop.

 

[B!squick]

there shouldn't be any character in red. If you can't handle ledgecamping it's not a problem with your character.

Explain.

Tornado eats most projectiles, true, but if he uses it he's forced to land on the stage, where you can punish him. I'm not sure about drill rush or shuttle loop.

Or he could just free fall to the ledge and 'Nado has the handy ability to knock people away or just end it away from the other person. Only noobs get punished when using Tornado.

 

[bobson]

Or he could just free fall to the ledge and 'Nado has the handy ability to knock people away or just end it away from the other person. Only noobs get punished when using Tornado.

Freefall to the ledge = easy target. There's a bit of lag after the tornado where you're unable to grab the ledge, and getting high enough to go through this and grab it anyway would use up your whole tornado and set you up for any punishment the other player cares to give.
Keep in mind the position of both players. MK's on the ledge, while you're in control of the stage. If you're using a projectile, you should be at least in the middle of the stage so you can safely stay out of his range, which would mean, at most, MK could fly half the stage away. If your character isn't slow, you should be able to shield the tornado and still catch up to him before he's out of the lag.

 

[kevinw0w]

ICs can use blizzard in addition to iceblocks. I think Kirby and Dedede's swallocides are also an option.

 

[RazeveX]

I really don't think squirtle is that bad when it comes to this.

His dair is multihit awesomeness; seems like fast falling it is a good idea on most stages against most characters, as long as it's not totally expected.
(not saying the dair is amazing, but it does alright)

Charging water is fast and safe; shooting it correctly (situational and can be difficult) can arc it over the edge, pushing the character back a bit for some time, taking away their invincibility frames and safe positioning.
This could be a great precursor to the dair.

Keep in mind when considering these; they are much much better than ganon attempting a side b, which you wrote up there.

Also, most plankers will get up to punish if they see you do something punishable. So overall, just mindgamez them. Hell, I'd try that falcon charging taunt > jab

 

[Veggi]

How is an UpB on stage gonna help? And FSmash for both of those would only work if they let the ledge invincibility frames run out... for whatever reason.

Up b's super armor will last the entire up b if he runs off the stage while the super armor frames are active. Plus while he's spinning near the edge before he grabs it, MK can not grab it. If DK uses it on stage, MK has to drop off or it will hit him, if he drops off he can't punish it, I think.

DK's down angled ftilt might work too. Fsmash probably won't work if they drop off, I'll admit.

 

[Crow!]

Unfortunately, the moves listed as anti-ledgestalling moves in this list don't actually work against someone who knows how to ledge stall. I for one felt insulted when I saw Link listed as having a good answer to the stall; Link has nothing he can do about it. Here's a quick list of just a few things stallers can do (with a minimum of effort and little likelihood of messing up) to thwart such tactics.


Projectile type (i.e. Link bombs, arrows):
Time invulnerability for the arrival of projectiles
Drop below the stage and sweetspot the regrab either with apex of jump or with up-B

Continuous / directable projectile type (i.e. flame, PK Thunder)
Time invulnerability to avoid initial hit, get on stage and punish attacker's inability to defend self in a reasonable period of time
Go underneath stage to other ledge

Attacks hitting the edge:
Time invulnerability to defend against attack, then ledge hop anything (Fair, tornado, up-B, Nair, glide attack)
Just hit with up-B's absurd range and priority

Diving attacks (i.e. certain down-B's, dairs):
These attacks are always easy to see coming and prepare for. Time regrab for invulnerability or simply hide below the stage (if that's even NEEDED to punish the attack in question) then enjoy an easy ledgeguard or ledgehog depending on your opponent.

"Bringing the battle to the edge":
Fight back with the absurd advantage of having invulnerability. Nobody's better than MK off the stage, and even MK would have to be stupid to approach a MK who's at a strictly better position than himself thanks to being able to choose when to have invincibility.


The biggest problem is that MK off the stage has a plethora of really good options available. If some anti-ledgestall tactic is tried, MK's planking can evolve a response to deal with it - and with invulnerability in the picture and the stage in the way, perfect play to deal with a particular response becomes a trivial matter.

 

[bobson]

Unfortunately, the moves listed as anti-ledgestalling moves in this list don't actually work against someone who knows how to ledge stall. I for one felt insulted when I saw Link listed as having a good answer to the stall; Link has nothing he can do about it. Here's a quick list of just a few things stallers can do (with a minimum of effort and little likelihood of messing up) to thwart such tactics.

So every planker who's decent is going to perfectly predict and respond to any type of mindgame you play every single time for eight minutes in a row? Keep in mind that for most of these, Metaknight can do nothing but dodge them and you can continue to throw them at him for the entire match with little to no risk to yourself. If it has any chance of hitting while still being safe, it's a good option.

 

[Niko_K]

This thread just justifies why ledge camping shouldn't be banned, just like MK. There are ways around it. That was the argument of the MK ban, and I don't see why it wouldn't apply to ledge camping.

 

[B!squick]

This thread just justifies why ledge camping shouldn't be banned, just like MK. There are ways around it. That was the argument of the MK ban, and I don't see why it wouldn't apply to ledge camping.

Until you read things like this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7004898&postcount=111

Which I totally agree with. Most of the stuff on that list wont really work.

 

[Delvro]

Pit's dtilt spikes. If you have Ike's Dtilt, then Pit's should be there too. Works well at times.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

Unfortunately, the moves listed as anti-ledgestalling moves in this list don't actually work against someone who knows how to ledge stall. I for one felt insulted when I saw Link listed as having a good answer to the stall; Link has nothing he can do about it. Here's a quick list of just a few things stallers can do (with a minimum of effort and little likelihood of messing up) to thwart such tactics.


Projectile type (i.e. Link bombs, arrows):
Time invulnerability for the arrival of projectiles
Drop below the stage and sweetspot the regrab either with apex of jump or with up-B

Continuous / directable projectile type (i.e. flame, PK Thunder)
Time invulnerability to avoid initial hit, get on stage and punish attacker's inability to defend self in a reasonable period of time
Go underneath stage to other ledge

Attacks hitting the edge:
Time invulnerability to defend against attack, then ledge hop anything (Fair, tornado, up-B, Nair, glide attack)
Just hit with up-B's absurd range and priority

Diving attacks (i.e. certain down-B's, dairs):
These attacks are always easy to see coming and prepare for. Time regrab for invulnerability or simply hide below the stage (if that's even NEEDED to punish the attack in question) then enjoy an easy ledgeguard or ledgehog depending on your opponent.

"Bringing the battle to the edge":
Fight back with the absurd advantage of having invulnerability. Nobody's better than MK off the stage, and even MK would have to be stupid to approach a MK who's at a strictly better position than himself thanks to being able to choose when to have invincibility.


The biggest problem is that MK off the stage has a plethora of really good options available. If some anti-ledgestall tactic is tried, MK's planking can evolve a response to deal with it - and with invulnerability in the picture and the stage in the way, perfect play to deal with a particular response becomes a trivial matter.

Your arguments are incredibly vague and unconvincing. You basically say "time invulnerability perfectly" for everything. To start, that is not realistic. In my opinion the real trouble with planking is having to go off stage to fight metaknight, where you are likely to get gimped and he is not. Many of these attacks allow you to stay on stage (projectiles) and attack metaknight while he can't do anything except dodge and time ledge grabs. Eventually SOMETHING will hit him. As for the attacks that require you to go off stage, admittedly most are bad ideas. But for characters with good recoveries the situation is almost no different than fighting a metaknight in the air, it is hard yet possible. You are overestimating the invulnerability advantage given to the planking metaknight. If you properly time your offstage attacks between ledge drops, the only advantage metaknight starts with is he has better attacks (and a slight recovery advantage depending on your character). This advantage starts as soon as the player picks metaknight, though. So it holds no real argument in this thread.


I can't say I have experience seeing a link vs a planking metaknight, but to me bombs seem good enough to put him in the green. However, if you or someone else provides better arguments I am perfectly fine with changing it. All character colors were guessed with bias by me, so I am waiting for people to argue them for better accuracy.

I am reading the posts right now and will probably make some other changes people have pointed out.

 

[Hive]

bombs, I actually would say aren't that good for samus to edgeguard with. In order to get them off onto the ledge you either have to be directly near the ledge or directly above the ledge, in both cases setting her up to be punished since her bomb puts her into a vulnerable stater for a time.

the only time i'd ever really use them to stop a ledge attack is to lay them on the stage when i think mk is going to tornado across, as a preventative measure, but its not always effective.

 

[Zaffy]

Doesn't Luigis down taunt cause a meteor smash or something?

But i agree with others, the invincibility of the ledge pretty much allows anyone trying to stop edge stallers to be punished

 

[bludhoundz]

Lucario can Fsmash.

 

[brinboy789]

Doesn't Luigis down taunt cause a meteor smash or something?

But i agree with others, the invincibility of the ledge pretty much allows anyone trying to stop edge stallers to be punished

yes, but good luck hitting with it