lol at religous people, I mean really.

[Reaver197]

nicely put.
however, the question was "prove that hell doesn't exist", not "prove that there is no proof that hell exists."
Obviously there is no way to prove that hell exists, or souls exist, etc.
That is why it is called faith.

If there isn't any proof required for the proposition of the idea that hell exists, then why should I need proof to dismiss the idea that hell exists?

If one is able to accept a certain belief or deity on the concept of faith alone, without any evidence, it would be only fair to allow people to deny those beliefs or deities on the concept of their own "faith" or convictions without any evidence either.

Faith is, essentially, believing in something irregardless of what the evidence says or the lack of evidence for your position. It's an incredibly close-minded approach, since you can pretty much justify and hold any position, and completely ignore any one else's, which doesn't leave you any closer to actually reaching any discernibly true or valid idea.

 

[Clownbot]

I never said outright "Hell exists". I apologize if I made that impression, it's a pet peeve of mine when people say something along the lines of "There is no God" rather than "I don't believe in a God". I don't do that.

 

[Fuelbi]

Excuse Me Isnt This Better For The Dh Or Something

 

[Fatmanonice]

I never said outright "Hell exists". I apologize if I made that impression, it's a pet peeve of mine when people say something along the lines of "There is no God" rather than "I don't believe in a God". I don't do that.

Agreed. As already said, there really isn't a way to prove the existence of a god. This is one of the reasons why I'm an agnostic-theist; I believe in the possibility in a god but not in the terms set by most religions.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

Excuse Me Isnt This Better For The Dh Or Something

It probably is!

However, religion seems to be all the rage in the UB these days.

 

[Reaver197]

I never said outright "Hell exists". I apologize if I made that impression, it's a pet peeve of mine when people say something along the lines of "There is no God" rather than "I don't believe in a God". I don't do that.

Ah, I see, you were trying to correct semantics rather than the overall idea. I had misinterpreted what you said, my bad.

 

[john!]

Atheists often accuse religion of causing people to be "brainwashed", "dogmatized", etc. What they fail to realize is that it's part of human nature to want to fight for a cause. Ironically, atheism has the same effect as religion (as you can see with all of the atheist blogs coming up these days). At the risk of fulfilling Godwin's Law, you may recall Germany in the early 1940's where normal people would commit horrific acts for a cause they believed to be good.

Atheism is a faith just like most religions*. The difference is that atheists don't recognize that they are believers, and it brings forth an unprecedented amount of bigotry and causes a sharp divide between atheists and the religious. That is why they are the most disliked group in America.

*Lack of faith is agnosticism, not atheism. That's why you rarely see agnostics start topics about religion.

 

[TP]

Atheism is a faith just like most religions*. The difference is that atheists don't recognize that they are believers, and it brings forth an unprecedented amount of bigotry and causes a sharp divide between atheists and the religious. That is why they are the most disliked group in America.

Believers in what? That there is no God? That's not a belief, it's a disbelief. Am I being spiritual when I saw there is NOT a pink unicorn in orbit around Mars? No. There are, in fact, an infinite amount of things that I do not believe. That does not magically make me a believer.

 

[john!]

Believers in what? That there is no God? That's not a belief, it's a disbelief. Am I being spiritual when I saw there is NOT a pink unicorn in orbit around Mars? No. There are, in fact, an infinite amount of things that I do not believe. That does not magically make me a believer.

I notice how you changed from "belief" to "spiritual". You're not being spiritual but you're still believing. Although, nobody has ever seen a unicorn, much less a pink one, much less one in space. So the belief is pretty foolish.

So why is God different? Because the universe exists, and throughout our known universe everything must have a cause. This seems to indicate that at the very least, there are supernatural agents outside the observable universe.

The fact remains that atheism is by definition taking the stance that God does not exist. This is a leap of faith and there's no way around it. Call me a pink unicorn agnostic if you like but I'm still a disbeliever. I don't go around shouting PINK UNICRONS DON EXITS because there's no reason to believe it.

 

[BananaHammock]

First off, (this goes for people on both sides, but much more so for atheists) don't throw scripture around that has been taken horribly out of context. This is the oldest trick in the atheist bag of tricks and still doing it to this day just makes you look ignorant. Save us all the time it takes to point out how flawed your approach is. Don't do it.

I think the biggest problem, from both perspectives, is that neither side talks or acts in terms of the opposite perspectives beliefs. Let me explain. As a Christian, if my atheist friend goes out and has sex with 3 different women in one night, should I be surprised that he doesn't feel bad about it? Of course not, it's not in his set of beliefs that "sex with one person and only after marriage" is the right way to do things. Does it make me disappointed that he's missing out on God's plan for sexuality? Yes, but as a christian it's not my job to strike down or judge people who sin. I know that a lot of christians fail in this aspect, but that means that the person is to blame, NOT the religion itself.

Also, should I be surprised that he/she believes in evolution? No. It's not in that persons belief system that God created all life.

On the other side of the coin, atheists commonly try to attack religious views while disregarding the ideas that these religions hold onto. It says right in the bible to go make disciples of other people and tell them about Christ. It's part of our belief system to bring other people to a knowledge of God the way we know him. Why is it surprising when a Christian tries to convert people. When I think about my atheist friends dying and going to hell, it breaks my heart. Why shouldn't I try to save them from that? Admittedly, christians commonly go about it the wrong way, but again, that's a fault of the person, not the beliefs.

Also, why would a christian who believes what the bible says believe in a theory like the big bang or evolution? The bible covers both of these points (God created the universe and God created all the animals). Trying to belittle a christian for not believing in these theories is extremely arrogant and ignorant.

A talk I had with one of my friends who is atheist brought up an interesting point. He said that we don't have the technology to understand the origins of the universe "yet". But my thought was "What if when we do have the understanding, all evidence points to there being a god who created the universe?" I think sometimes people put a far too mystical label on God. Maybe God, Heaven, Hell etc. aren't completely inexplicable concepts. If something exists (which I believe God does) it can probably be explained in some kind of terms. In my mind, God is a being who lives in another plane of existence and has complete control in our plane of existence. Alternate dimensions would be the sci-fi description of what I'm getting at. And maybe some day we'll have the technology to understand it.

The bottom line: Nobody right now can prove much of anything so it's not our place to hate others based on what they believe. Just think of the opposite side in terms of their beliefs before attacking them. You will accomplish more and won't come off hateful and won't be hated as a result.

 

[TP]

So why is God different? Because the universe exists, and throughout our known universe everything must have a cause. This seems to indicate that at the very least, there are supernatural agents outside the observable universe.

I disagree. That is too large an assumption to make from such little information. There are an infinite number of possible ways that the universe came to be. Each of them is equally unlikely. I don't know the correct answer, but to say that God is a possible answer is not saying anything at all. If I say "The universe exists because of something that happened in the past," I'm not really making a statement. If all you are saying is that the explanation is impossible to understand, then you aren't making an argument for religion, you are making an argument for being clueless.

Please don't take any of that the wrong way, I mean no offense.

 

[Heartz♥]

This blog is bad and I should feel bad.

I can't have fun with this because of the Mod of War.

Well, on a serious note, religious people are no different from those with specific beliefs and values. Just because we believe there is an invisible man that blesses us if we do right doesn't make us some *******. Humans are ******** in general actually.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Well, on a serious note, religious people are no different from those with specific beliefs and values. Just because we believe there is an invisible man that blesses us if we do right doesn't make us some *******. Humans are ******** in general actually.

No one's saying that all Christians are ********. If you still think the earth is flat and that creationism is literally correct, yes you're a ******. If you take the Bible with several pinches of salt, then that's fine.

Though WTF do you mean by 'humans are ******** in general actually'?

 

[Reaver197]

First off, (this goes for people on both sides, but much more so for atheists) don't throw scripture around that has been taken horribly out of context. This is the oldest trick in the atheist bag of tricks and still doing it to this day just makes you look ignorant. Save us all the time it takes to point out how flawed your approach is. Don't do it.

Explain what was taken out of context and what it actually is supposed to mean then. Don't just say "you took it out of context" and not even bother explaining what portions were taken out of context and what, you think, the original meaning is.

 

[Heartz♥]

No one's saying that all Christians are ********. If you still think the earth is flat and that creationism is literally correct, yes you're a ******. If you take the Bible with several pinches of salt, then that's fine.

Though WTF do you mean by 'humans are ******** in general actually'?

Well first of all, I said "religious people", not Christians. That is a much wider scale. All I am saying is that for those who bash those who believe in a god fail to realize that it is just another belief and/or value. For instance, one person can believe in magic, another person believes that murderers should be capitally punished.

Where I am getting at with the "********" thing is that humans are straight up hypocrites. I've only used that derogatory term as a means of exaggeration and thematic purposes.

 

[Fatmanonice]

1.First off, (this goes for people on both sides, but much more so for atheists) don't throw scripture around that has been taken horribly out of context. This is the oldest trick in the atheist bag of tricks and still doing it to this day just makes you look ignorant. Save us all the time it takes to point out how flawed your approach is. Don't do it.

2.I think the biggest problem, from both perspectives, is that neither side talks or acts in terms of the opposite perspectives beliefs. Let me explain. As a Christian, if my atheist friend goes out and has sex with 3 different women in one night, should I be surprised that he doesn't feel bad about it? Of course not, it's not in his set of beliefs that "sex with one person and only after marriage" is the right way to do things. Does it make me disappointed that he's missing out on God's plan for sexuality? Yes, but as a christian it's not my job to strike down or judge people who sin. I know that a lot of christians fail in this aspect, but that means that the person is to blame, NOT the religion itself.

Also, should I be surprised that he/she believes in evolution? No. It's not in that persons belief system that God created all life.

3.On the other side of the coin, atheists commonly try to attack religious views while disregarding the ideas that these religions hold onto. It says right in the bible to go make disciples of other people and tell them about Christ. It's part of our belief system to bring other people to a knowledge of God the way we know him. Why is it surprising when a Christian tries to convert people. When I think about my atheist friends dying and going to hell, it breaks my heart. Why shouldn't I try to save them from that? Admittedly, christians commonly go about it the wrong way, but again, that's a fault of the person, not the beliefs.

4.Also, why would a christian who believes what the bible says believe in a theory like the big bang or evolution? The bible covers both of these points (God created the universe and God created all the animals). Trying to belittle a christian for not believing in these theories is extremely arrogant and ignorant.

5.A talk I had with one of my friends who is atheist brought up an interesting point. He said that we don't have the technology to understand the origins of the universe "yet". But my thought was "What if when we do have the understanding, all evidence points to there being a god who created the universe?" I think sometimes people put a far too mystical label on God. Maybe God, Heaven, Hell etc. aren't completely inexplicable concepts. If something exists (which I believe God does) it can probably be explained in some kind of terms. In my mind, God is a being who lives in another plane of existence and has complete control in our plane of existence. Alternate dimensions would be the sci-fi description of what I'm getting at. And maybe some day we'll have the technology to understand it.

6.The bottom line: Nobody right now can prove much of anything so it's not our place to hate others based on what they believe. Just think of the opposite side in terms of their beliefs before attacking them. You will accomplish more and won't come off hateful and won't be hated as a result.

1. Bag of tricks? You talk as if atheists' whole goal is to decieve and delude people. I could say that just about every religion has it's "bag of tricks" with Christianity having Heaven and Hell, converting children, converting people who are impoverished (ie; most missonary work) and emotionally/mentally unstable (like Alcoholic's Annoyomous), etc.

2. It sounds like here that you're assuming that atheist's don't have a moral compass. Atheist's aren't exempt from feelings of guilt and don't just do whatever they feel like.

3. I think that's the issue right there, if you get in someone's face and tell them that they're wrong and that they are going to burn like a Roman candle for all eternity because of it, yes, it's expected that they are going to be annoyed. If anything, both Christians and atheists are too agressive in the United States. It's just plain annoying. I wish I could go into the TV and beat up every tele-evangalist I've ever seen but I'd also like to do the same for people like Edward Currant and the Amazing Atheist on You Tube. For the most part, the concept of being subtle escapes them but that's just one of the flaws of American culture in general and extends to everything from environmentalists to the gay community. If anything, I think it's one of the reasons why the US has the problems that it does. Too many people who try to make the world black and white and polarize everything.

4. Genesis is vague in some regards. For example, were the seven days literally seven days? It says in another part of the Bible that a day in Heaven is like a thousand years on Earth. Again, it's whether or not you decide to interpret the Bible literally or figuratively/metaphorically. Then comes the issue of how old the Earth is. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean that you have to believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, for example.

5. That's the thing, you can't scientifically test alternate dimensions. If I've learned anything, hoping that science will prove the existance of God is a hopeless venture. It's like trying to use science to determine issues in ethics, you just don't do it.

6. I was a Christian from 1990 to 2004 and I come from a strong Christian family so I'm very familar with the subject so, at least for me, I can effectively look at things from both perspectives.

 

[BananaHammock]

1. Bag of tricks? You talk as if atheists' whole goal is to decieve and delude people. I could say that just about every religion has it's "bag of tricks" with Christianity having Heaven and Hell, converting children, converting people who are impoverished (ie; most missonary work) and emotionally/mentally unstable (like Alcoholic's Annoyomous), etc.

2. It sounds like here that you're assuming that atheist's don't have a moral compass. Atheist's aren't exempt from feelings of guilt and don't just do whatever they feel like.

3. I think that's the issue right there, if you get in someone's face and tell them that they're wrong and that they are going to burn like a Roman candle for all eternity because of it, yes, it's expected that they are going to be annoyed. If anything, both Christians and atheists are too agressive in the United States. It's just plain annoying. I wish I could go into the TV and beat up every tele-evangalist I've ever seen but I'd also like to do the same for people like Edward Currant and the Amazing Atheist on You Tube. For the most part, the concept of being subtle escapes them but that's just one of the flaws of American culture in general and extends to everything from environmentalists to the gay community. If anything, I think it's one of the reasons why the US has the problems that it does. Too many people who try to make the world black and white and polarize everything.

4. Genesis is vague in some regards. For example, were the seven days literally seven days? It says in another part of the Bible that a day in Heaven is like a thousand years on Earth. Again, it's whether or not you decide to interpret the Bible literally or figuratively/metaphorically. Then comes the issue of how old the Earth is. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean that you have to believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, for example.

5. That's the thing, you can't scientifically test alternate dimensions. If I've learned anything, hoping that science will prove the existance of God is a hopeless venture. It's like trying to use science to determine issues in ethics, you just don't do it.

6. I was a Christian from 1990 to 2004 and I come from a strong Christian family so I'm very familar with the subject so, at least for me, I can effectively look at things from both perspectives.

1) I didn't mean to sound like all atheists do this, but you can't deny that it happens a lot. Sorry if I came off as generalizing.

2) Again I didn't say that atheists have no morals, but on certain subjects, there is no reason an atheist should care. I'm sure we can all agree that murder, ****, stealing, lying etc. are bad, but stuff like sex before marriage or observing the sabbath has it's root in christianity, so what I was saying is that christians should not be surprised when atheists do things that don't mesh with "Christian" beliefs.

4) The entire bible is indeed vague on a lot of things. Personally I don't believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old, the bible never comes right out and says it. The "seven days" could be any amount of time. But that particular subject is pretty low down on the importance totem pole. The important thing to me is that I believe God created the universe. The bible isn't vague about that.

5) We know so little, so why is hoping that science proves that God exists any more hopeless than hoping that science proves that the big bang happened? Or who's to say that the Big Bang wasn't God's doing?

6) If you don't mind my asking, did you leave because of the Christians or because of Christianity? The people, or the beliefs?

@Reaver197 - I'm not ignoring you. I'll get around to answering you.

 

[RDK]

Not really, no.
Have you studied every single religion out there? No.

Also, blacks are all different shades of brown.

Stop being so arrogant with your views and shoving them down people's throats, it's no better than a Bible thumper telling you you're a devil worshipping sinner who'll end up rotting for all eternity.

As much as I like many of RDKs arguments, I have to agree with this. Well said Teran.

Seriously Teran? I don't think you know how dumb you sound right now.

Not all blacks are black? Is that what you're trying to say? What are you trying to say?

In any case, I'm not going to argue semantics with you. Religion is achieved through irrationality when applied to a worldview. If it isn't, then it's not a religion. That simple.

 

[Ls777]

If there isn't any proof required for the proposition of the idea that hell exists, then why should I need proof to dismiss the idea that hell exists?

If one is able to accept a certain belief or deity on the concept of faith alone, without any evidence, it would be only fair to allow people to deny those beliefs or deities on the concept of their own "faith" or convictions without any evidence either.

Faith is, essentially, believing in something irregardless of what the evidence says or the lack of evidence for your position. It's an incredibly close-minded approach, since you can pretty much justify and hold any position, and completely ignore any one else's, which doesn't leave you any closer to actually reaching any discernibly true or valid idea.

good points.
However, that's not what faith is.
Faith is just the assuredness of my belief... because of other biblical things that have held true in my life, logically, I believe in heaven and hell. There is no way to prove my belief. I can tell you of experiences that have led me to my belief, but chances are no one would believe them anyways XD
Furthermore... I'm not close minded, and i don't ignore other peoples arguments.
Personally, i have faith because of the experiences Ive had in my own life with god and how he has affected my family and different people i know. Its hard to explain, im not the greatest with rhetoric XD

No one's saying that all Christians are ********. If you still think the earth is flat and that creationism is literally correct, yes you're a ******. If you take the Bible with several pinches of salt, then that's fine.

I believe creationism is literally correct. No I'm not a ******.

Seriously Teran? I don't think you know how dumb you sound right now.

Not all blacks are black? Is that what you're trying to say? What are you trying to say?

In any case, I'm not going to argue semantics with you. Religion is achieved through irrationality when applied to a worldview. If it isn't, then it's not a religion. That simple.

Irrationality is acheived through generalization when applied to a debate.

 

[Clownbot]

Seriously Teran? I don't think you know how dumb you sound right now.

Not all blacks are black? Is that what you're trying to say? What are you trying to say?

In any case, I'm not going to argue semantics with you. Religion is achieved through irrationality when applied to a worldview. If it isn't, then it's not a religion. That simple.

Well, I don't know what they were trying to say, but just giving my two cents, you sound like an extremist, as well as a prick.

 

[Skler]

Seriously Teran? I don't think you know how dumb you sound right now.

Not all blacks are black? Is that what you're trying to say? What are you trying to say?

In any case, I'm not going to argue semantics with you. Religion is achieved through irrationality when applied to a worldview. If it isn't, then it's not a religion. That simple.

And I used to think I was pretty rational. Guess I'm just a wacko Christian.

@Terran, don't close the topic just because of RDK blatantly flaming, we can ignore him.

I'll get on topic though. First subject, faith!

Faith is a wonderful thing to have. Faith can be bad, but it certainly isn't always bad. I have faith in humanity, I think most people are generally good. This faith helps me be a better person, I like helping good people! If I thought people weren't good (had no faith in humanity) why would I help any of those other *******s? Faith can be a bad thing, but it's also got potential to be a good thing. It would suck to have no faith.

Next, religion!

Religion is (or at least tries to be) a good thing. Religion isn't out to get your money (at least not most of them) and they usually teach people to be good. Look at the ten commandments. If everyone obeyed them the world would be a pretty great place, wouldn't it? A lot of atheists blame a whole lot of things on religion, this is my main problem with the vocal atheists. Crazy people will be crazy. Even without religion wars would be fought, people would blow themselves up to kill other people and that guy with the sandwich board will still be screaming "The end is near!" on the corner of the street. Most religions tell you to be a better person, I don't care what you believe, if something encourages people to better themselves then it's (generally) a good thing.

One last thing, converting people!

I don't preach about God to anybody and I expect people not to preach to me. I understand why some religious people do try to convert others, but I personally don't do that. Then again I believe you just need to be a good person to get approval from the big man, so I don't think converting people will save or **** anyone. Atheists preaching to people is something I don't understand at all. Are you trying to save me from hell? No? Why do you care then? Do you think I'm part of some mind controlling cult? If you did your research you'd know I'm not. I just don't understand why atheists care so much about my beliefs. If there is no afterlife you aren't doing me any favors by converting me, so thanks but no thanks.

Basically, why do you atheists give a **** what I believe? Feel free to shout at the crazies, I don't mind that at all. If you start ranting about how you think there is no God to me I'll just tell you to shut up. I keep my beliefs to myself most of the time (I really don't like talking about religion, actually) and I expect people to respect that. I only posted on here because I feel like we haven't had a really "rules lite" christian say anything.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Not all blacks are black? Is that what you're trying to say? What are you trying to say?

When was the last time you saw a literal black person.
Please, do tell.

 

[RDK]

Faith is a wonderful thing to have. Faith can be bad, but it certainly isn't always bad. I have faith in humanity, I think most people are generally good. This faith helps me be a better person, I like helping good people! If I thought people weren't good (had no faith in humanity) why would I help any of those other *******s? Faith can be a bad thing, but it's also got potential to be a good thing. It would suck to have no faith.

Let me stop you right here.

There's such a thing as rational faith, and irrational faith. Your faith in humanity is based off of a belief; the belief that most people are good. While there's no possible way that you've even come close to meeting "most people" (whatever that vague statement means in this case), no doubt you've come to this conclusion based on the fact that you see a large potential to do good in everyone you have managed to meet; that, or you've just met mostly good people. This can be considered rational, as you have decent reason to believe it

An example of irrational faith is believing there is a god because a 4,000 year old book tells you so.

Religion is (or at least tries to be) a good thing.

Some of the biggest atrocities known to man have been done with good intentions.

Religion isn't out to get your money

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xCwmw8tf7k

and they usually teach people to be good.

http://www.godhates***s.com/

Look at the ten commandments. If everyone obeyed them the world would be a pretty great place, wouldn't it? A lot of atheists blame a whole lot of things on religion, this is my main problem with the vocal atheists. Crazy people will be crazy. Even without religion wars would be fought, people would blow themselves up to kill other people and that guy with the sandwich board will still be screaming "The end is near!" on the corner of the street. Most religions tell you to be a better person, I don't care what you believe, if something encourages people to better themselves then it's (generally) a good thing.

What in the world would people kill themselves over if there wasn't religion to break them up into factions and brainwash them into believing the guy across the street is an infidel who needs to die because he doesn't worship the same god as me?

I don't preach about God to anybody and I expect people not to preach to me. I understand why some religious people do try to convert others, but I personally don't do that. Then again I believe you just need to be a good person to get approval from the big man, so I don't think converting people will save or **** anyone. Atheists preaching to people is something I don't understand at all. Are you trying to save me from hell? No? Why do you care then? Do you think I'm part of some mind controlling cult? If you did your research you'd know I'm not. I just don't understand why atheists care so much about my beliefs. If there is no afterlife you aren't doing me any favors by converting me, so thanks but no thanks.

No, I don't think you're part of a mind-controlling cult, and neither is anybody else who keeps their religion to themselves. But there are a lot of other people out there who are like that, and they are basically everything that's wrong with the world.

Basically, why do you atheists give a **** what I believe? Feel free to shout at the crazies, I don't mind that at all. If you start ranting about how you think there is no God to me I'll just tell you to shut up. I keep my beliefs to myself most of the time (I really don't like talking about religion, actually) and I expect people to respect that. I only posted on here because I feel like we haven't had a really "rules lite" christian say anything.

I never called you a crazy, I said believing in something irrationally is crazy. That's the cause of religion, and it's the root of a lot of problems.

When was the last time you saw a literal black person.
Please, do tell.

I assume, like most normal people, that when he's referring to "blacks" he means people of African decent, no matter what percentage. Saying not all black people are black people is ******** in the highest degree, and akin to saying not all birds are birds.

 

[BananaHammock]

I assume, like most normal people, that when he's referring to "blacks" he means people of African decent, no matter what percentage. Saying not all black people are black people is ******** in the highest degree, and akin to saying not all birds are birds.

Now you're even changing his words. He said not all black(as in the race) people are black(as in the color).

and EVERYTHING wrong with the world is because of religion? I want a list. Prove it.

Last I knew Money was the cause of most of the problems in the world. Or at least, that's what Pink Floyd tells me.

 

[Skler]

Let me stop you right here.

There's such a thing as rational faith, and irrational faith. Your faith in humanity is based off of a belief; the belief that most people are good. While there's no possible way that you've even come close to meeting "most people" (whatever that vague statement means in this case), no doubt you've come to this conclusion based on the fact that you see a large potential to do good in everyone you have managed to meet; that, or you've just met mostly good people. This can be considered rational, as you have decent reason to believe it

An example of irrational faith is believing there is a god because a 4,000 year old book tells you so.

I have my belief for a lot of reasons, believing anything just because a book says so is a poor choice. My faith in humanity, and my religious beliefs, are based on things I have observed. I don't believe things just because I am told them, I'm not a sheep.

Some of the biggest atrocities known to man have been done with good intentions.

And with or without religion people find reasons to do these things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xCwmw8tf7k

That isn't religion trying to take advantage of people, that is an example of people who are pretending to be religious trying to take advantage of people. You shouldn't judge religion by the few groups that misuse it.

http://www.godhates***s.com/

I've seen that site before! That one church was all over the news because it was full of crazies. That's just a small group of extremely hateful people. I can find atheists who hate homosexuals too. The bible does have an unfortunate passage where it says that homosexuality is a sin, but it also tells you to love thy neighbor. There are countless other passages that tell you not to hate others when you yourself are a sinner and things such as that. It is mostly a message of love, some people just seem to focus on the hate and forget that 90% of Christianity tells you to love people and tolerate those who do have different beliefs.

What in the world would people kill themselves over if there wasn't religion to break them up into factions and brainwash them into believing the guy across the street is an infidel who needs to die because he doesn't worship the same god as me?

The same thing that made people believe the person across the street is an infidel who needs to die because he's a different color. People find all sorts of insane reasons to hate, and people will "sacrifice" themselves in the name of nationalism, racism and many other things.

No, I don't think you're part of a mind-controlling cult, and neither is anybody else who keeps their religion to themselves. But there are a lot of other people out there who are like that, and they are basically everything that's wrong with the world.

There are terrible people in the world and some of them do masquerade as religious people. They would be just as terrible if they used some other means of gaining followers. Look at what Hitler did (I just couldn't think of a better example, as I forget exactly how Stalin and some other dictators came into power), all he needed to do was promise jobs, glory and come up with a scapegoat. Unfortunately masses of people living in poor conditions can be easily swayed, there are many means to sway them and religion is a powerful thing. It's bound to be used some of the time.

I never called you a crazy, I said believing in something irrationally is crazy. That's the cause of religion, and it's the root of a lot of problems.

I didn't say you called me crazy. I said that there are some people who are crazy and run around pretending to be religious.

I find religion (at least mine) to be perfectly rational. You do not, but you have not had the same experiences I have had.

Irrational people will be irrational about anything. People get killed over the stupidest things, religion not existing would just mean more people will get killed because somebody else looks different. Everyone needs to rationalize their choices, it just so happens religion gets used often.

 

[Teran]

Seriously Teran? I don't think you know how dumb you sound right now.

Not all blacks are black? Is that what you're trying to say? What are you trying to say?

In any case, I'm not going to argue semantics with you. Religion is achieved through irrationality when applied to a worldview. If it isn't, then it's not a religion. That simple.

No, calling someone dumb and acting high and mighty doesn't make you win, it makes you look like an arrogant self important knob.

More to the point, You just have a personal axe to grind with religion, and this clouds your judgement. Come back when you've had a better look at more religions than just a handful on the surface.

 

[RDK]

No, calling someone dumb and acting high and mighty doesn't make you win, it makes you look like an arrogant self important knob.

More to the point, You just have a personal axe to grind with religion, and this clouds your judgement. Come back when you've had a better look at more religions than just a handful on the surface.

I've been a Christian for the majority of my life. I may have a personal axe to grind, but I'm in no way uneducated about religion. I also don't appreciate you telling me I'm uneducated about it.

 

[Teran]

I've been a Christian for the majority of my life. I may have a personal axe to grind, but I'm in no way uneducated about religion. I also don't appreciate you telling me I'm uneducated about it.

Don't let your personal issues with religion get in the way of your arguments.
Your arguements against religion are aggressive and personal.

Also, you're just as uneducated as so many others about religion, it doesn't just stretch to the Abrahamic religions and things like Hinduism or Sikhism. There are things that a lot of us are ignorant about, so it's best to keep quiet.

Now if you'd said "all Abrahamic religions are irrational", then threre wouldn't have been a problem.
Just be careful how you word things and don't be so aggressive, because I know you're a rational and intelligent debater. -___-

 

[RyuReiatsu]

So many extremists, so many, so many...
@Fear4: I'll tell you this. I haven't insulted Christians and you come and insult Atheists? I wonder why are you even giving out a "Fair point of view" as you seem to hate us. I'd suggest you stop generalizing too much, as you've accused us of doing such things. Well, in more extreme terms, almost as if we were all *******s.

If you want to talk about somebody, talk about extremists. EXTREMISTS.
You even sound like one of those who's completely blinded by religion. Sure, it pains you that you believe that your friends are going to hell... Not like you can force them, shut it up if they don't wanna hear ****s. I mean, I hate it when people try to convert me. Do you know how you should think? "At least, I've tried." And STOP RIGHT THERE.

 

[BananaHammock]

So many extremists, so many, so many...
@Fear4: I'll tell you this. I haven't insulted Christians and you come and insult Atheists? I wonder why are you even giving out a "Fair point of view" as you seem to hate us. I'd suggest you stop generalizing too much, as you've accused us of doing such things. Well, in more extreme terms, almost as if we were all *******s.

If you want to talk about somebody, talk about extremists. EXTREMISTS.
You even sound like one of those who's completely blinded by religion. Sure, it pains you that you believe that your friends are going to hell... Not like you can force them, shut it up if they don't wanna hear ****s. I mean, I hate it when people try to convert me. Do you know how you should think? "At least, I've tried." And STOP RIGHT THERE.

Please tell me what I said that insulted you...I am at a loss.

I don't know where you get the idea that I hate atheists. I have only accused "some atheist" of doing things that I have "personally seen" them do. I'm not pulling crazy ideas out of nowhere and flinging them around as if every atheist acts exactly the same way. I haven't said that.

If you read my first post, you'd know that I criticized Christians as much as I did atheists. Don't put words into my mouth. Especially words like "hate".

And I don't force Christianity down my friends throats. You could ask them personally. I have rarely even talked about religion with them. They know where I stand, but I don't make it a point to remind them all the time.

Conversion has become such a dirty word. I'd rather not even use it, because the image of a guy passing out papers about the apocalypse and reading out of his bible with the aid of a bullhorn pops into peoples minds right away. When I think about it I think about actions and showing Gods love through the way I live, and when necessary, civil conversation.

 

[Teran]

Screw this, it's going down a path I'd rather not see.

Anyway seeing as for the most part this was a civil and decent discussion, I think all people here who haven't should apply for temp debater. (Through group memberships in their User CP).

You'll find the debates there will stay on track and are more intelligent. So if you don't want to be punished for other people's mistakes, sign up and try for the DH!