Looking for some help

[TakaiSendo]

What's up guys,

Looking to main Lucas and need help on what to practice in order to get better. Right now I'm probably about an average casual player looking to progress deeper into the competitive scene. As of right now I only play locally in Jacksonville, NC at a small session I host every Friday night. We do stream so as I improve I will post matches either here or the video thread for critiques. Out of the people there I'm about the 3-4th best with the top two being able to compete at tournaments and fair well.

I know the most basic advanced techniques like RAR, wavedashing, wavelanding, and how to DI. I'm trying to get a list of what all I need to practice to get more confident in my play. So I have some questions for some stuff and at the end I'll have a list of all the stuff I need to practice. Hopefully some of you can give me a semi-definite order in which I should learn Lucas specific tech.

1. I really haven't incorporated Magnet into my play at all. I'm seeing a lot of people pretty much use it for shield pressure in 3.02 and a little in 3.5 but not as much. I've also seen it used to extend combos but I only really notice after PKF. Where else can I use Magnet safely? I know most of the answers will be highly situational but it helps to know what I need to be looking for.

2. For Approaching with magnet is it better to running magnet, short hop magnet, or DJC Magnet? I'm looking to see what's in best case scenario. Like if they shield I know magnet is like -2 and that they may be able to pushish, But that doesn't really tell me a whole lot. Also, Should I practice wavedashing out of magnet on hit and get used to that timing or learn both of the timings when it whiff as well?

3. I've been using a lot of PKF when it's safe to do so. My question is should I always DJC PKF? As of right now I'm only doing SH PKF and it's still working out. I believe I saw somewhere that if you DJC it you get less landing lag or something. Can someone help me out on this?

4. I haven't seen it much in 3.5, but what is Lucas's ledge stalling mechanics? I think I've seen in 3.02 where you could tether to reset your invincibility. I currently do not have a way of resetting my ledge invincibility and it's lead me into a lot of drop down to aerials where I'm getting punished hard.

My end goal is to have a Lucas that's pretty similar to HF Neon's with my own touch. His movement and control with the character is what I hope to accomplish. After I feel like I have a firm grasp on Lucas' tech I will be working on more specific practicing like finding a training partner and working on optimal combos and punishes. The practice list below is what I'm 100% sure I need to work on. Feel free to comment stuff that should be added to this list and I will reply if I'm not for sure how to do what I need to practice. I will be updating this thread as I continue to progress and hope to see some of you guys eventually.


Practice List:

DD ################ I don't feel as though I either utilize this enough or have the range in muscle memory yet. I often slide ;(
WD 100% ########## Sometimes I mess it up and get either not perfect WD or a full jump comes out.
WD OOS
DJC Aerials ######### Been slowly practicing these. I have Tap Jump On.
DJC PKF
LedgeDash



I'd like to say Thanks to any and everyone who reads all that and even more to the people who are willing to help my get competitive.

Thanks,

 

[D e l t a]

What's up guys,

Looking to main Lucas and need help on what to practice in order to get better. Right now I'm probably about an average casual player looking to progress deeper into the competitive scene. As of right now I only play locally in Jacksonville, NC at a small session I host every Friday night. We do stream so as I improve I will post matches either here or the video thread for critiques. Out of the people there I'm about the 3-4th best with the top two being able to compete at tournaments and fair well.

I know the most basic advanced techniques like RAR, wavedashing, wavelanding, and how to DI. I'm trying to get a list of what all I need to practice to get more confident in my play. So I have some questions for some stuff and at the end I'll have a list of all the stuff I need to practice. Hopefully some of you can give me a semi-definite order in which I should learn Lucas specific tech.

You came to the right place! I'm glad you've already taken the time to research these advanced techniques. If you have any further questions or are confused about any aspects, feel free to ask. Learning tech happens at your own speed, but here's the approximate order at which I began learning tech:

Tech for neutral game

• Learning how to PKF consistently
  • Making sure you don't have to worry about PKF in neutral means you can focus on your opponent rather than your tech skill
• Run -> grounded magnet and run -> short hop magnet
  • Seems simple enough right? When I first started I would accidentally PKF when trying to do this. Running SH magnet is also a decently hard tech to precisely master. Once you learn to pull this off consistently, you now have a new approach option. Furthermore, magnet is safe on shield and leads to many great combo opportunities.

Extra tech for punish game

• Knowing when and how to DJC aerials at all times is key to becoming a top Lucas player
  • A number of options don't fully open up for Lucas without DJC'ing, so it's important to master this.
  • You also won't retain momentum when DJC'ing, so trying to get the fullest horizontal movement while using DJC aerials simply won't happen.
• Out of Shield options
  • Lucas is somewhat special in that he has to release shield to perform aerials OoS or else he will use his tether
  • Become consistent with using aerials & wavedash OoS. Lucas' roll is very bad and should be used sparingly. WD OoS keeps you mobile, but doesn't have invincibility, so learn how these 2 OoS options trade off.
  • Know when to distinguish between staying in shield, attacking, or spot dodging.
• Knowing how to magnet -> aerial is something that I would save for later.
  • I am still in the process of mastering this, but is not pivotal tech towards being a high level Lucas player

 

[pipp]

When using magnet, you can run up and do quick grounded magnets and wavedash out of them. This can prove quite a useful approach option. It can also be good to short hop magnet and then do a wavedash out of it. Even though you're above the ground, you're still able to wavedash out of the magnet as long as you shorthopped and you're close to the ground. This enables you to carry momentum of a dash into a jump into magnet while still being able to retreat with a wavedash. You can also use this method for movement because aerial magnet also allows you to reverse momentum. Magnet is also good for low-mid percent combos as it sends the opponent up and backwards (or forwards if you hit it near the edge of the hitbox.) At low percents you can jump out of the magnet and do an up air after it hits someone which can lead to more up airs or other moves if you're quick enough. At mid percents it's harder to hit someone right after you magnet, so it's better to WD back and hit them with an aerial or even another magnet. Also, if you're in the air and you still have a jump you can also use magnet for movement and can DJC an aerial right out of magnet for some tricky attacks.

For PKF it's much easier to get follow ups when you DJC it as there's less lag than just a short-hop PKF and you can control your momentum better. DJC PKF is also better for spacing as you can run away from your opponent then quickly reverse your momentum and send out a PKF. If you only use one shoulder button I'd recommend setting your unused one to jump to make DJC PKF easier. I think it helps a lot.

Also, learn to DACUS efficiently as a lot of things can lead in to an unexpected DACUS such as DJC PKF and aerial moves if they're not expecting it.

Good luck!

 

[D e l t a]

For PKF it's much easier to get follow ups when you DJC it as there's less lag than just a short-hop PKF and you can control your momentum better.
Also, learn to DACUS efficiently as a lot of things can lead in to an unexpected DACUS such as DJC PKF and aerial moves if they're not expecting it.

Agreed with most of what you said.

To everybody reading this: Please stop saying DJC results in less lag. The only thing that you're doing when you double jump cancel, is cancel the rising animation of your jump. Nothing more, nothing less.

DACUS is also really cool to use. When I was a way lower level player than I am currently, I couldn't for the life of me beat my higher level friend. HOWEVER, I knew the approximate spacing of DACUS and caught him off guard with PKF -> DACUS and got some good % and easy kills

 

[TakaiSendo]

Thanks for the awesomely fast replies. I was working on DJC PKF tonight and I can't get it to do it right.How are each of you guys inputting it? I tried Y -> Up -> Up Right - Forward + B and Y -> Up Left -> Forward + B

I was reading in another post that this should get PKF to go the ground length if done correctly. Since I was looking for this it lead me to the conclusion that I'm doing it incorrectly.

Side note. Getting the timing for the magnet WD was easier than anticipated. I guess being a fox/falco casual helped a little. I had already read that I needed to let go of magnet before I could WD out and that made it tons easier.

Thanks again Guys,

Takai

 

[D e l t a]

I'll fill in answers to the other questions tomorrow. I got a little lazy / exhausted haha.

 

[Scraket]

Thanks for the awesomely fast replies. I was working on DJC PKF tonight and I can't get it to do it right.How are each of you guys inputting it? I tried Y -> Up -> Up Right - Forward + B and Y -> Up Left -> Forward + B

I was reading in another post that this should get PKF to go the ground length if done correctly. Since I was looking for this it lead me to the conclusion that I'm doing it incorrectly.

Side note. Getting the timing for the magnet WD was easier than anticipated. I guess being a fox/falco casual helped a little. I had already read that I needed to let go of magnet before I could WD out and that made it tons easier.

Thanks again Guys,

Takai

I do Y-Y- side B for djc pkf (which is probably the most common method of doing djc pkf). Keep in mind that the double jump -> side B input should be quicker than the grounded jump -> double jump input. (I hope that makes sense lol)

If you end up double jumping to high, then you are doing the grounded jump -> double jump input to fast and should slow that part down. If you end up lower to the ground but the pkf doesnt come out, then you need to speed up the double jump -> side B input.

 

[TakaiSendo]

Messing with it a little before work and Y Y B worked sometimes. So that's what I'll do.Gotta find the timing since I was getting a decent amount of canceled ones from being 2 low.

 

[20PK]

I use a weird setup where I have jump set to L which works perfectly for PKFs (the timing is such with it that if I do a RAR, the turnaround of the RAR corresponds to the second jump on L) and djc nairs and then use tap to jump and y for all other djcs.

 

[D e l t a]

I wrote this up in the comments section of my guide:

Jump then double jump before you reach the apex your short hop would normally be at, then make sure to not be holding the jump button while inputting side B (PKF). Watch any of Neon's videos where he shoots out a PKF and you will see this application in game.

• If timed correctly, the PKF will travel the distance of a grounded PKF.
• If you double jump too fast & input PKF, you'll hear the sound but you won't shoot out a PKF, similar to fast falling Falco's short hop laser too quickly.
• If you double jump too slow & input PKF, you'll get the distance that PKF normally travels in the air.
  • This will happen a lot, but sometimes is good to catch opponents at a higher distance. Otherwise they might start jumping over the lower & farther travelled PKF
• If you're holding jump when double jumping and going to input PKF, you'll rise instead of fall

I use Z for jump because of previous adaptions primarily from my Brawl days (Y is grab, R is Attack for DACUS).

I've found many people are fine with hitting Y then sliding down to B. It's essentially the same concept as Fox's double lasers: pressing jump once & B twice, rather than DJC PKF: jump twice and B once.

Once you get the timing down it becomes second nature. A good placed PKF is very disruptive to the enemy's flow in neutral

 

[20PK]

...I just realized somehow I can do reverse aerial magnets via tap y twice -> b and multimagnets by y/b alternation but still need to use L for DJC PKFs somehow.
Oh well, I'm used to it now and it produces more click clack sounds which make me sound more pro to psyche my opponent out. Mindgames, amirite? :^)

 

[D e l t a]

You ever just sit on the platform at the beginning of a match? I've not approached, waited for them to be confused, then gotten a free hit. It's great

 

[TakaiSendo]

Lolll, Yea. Y -> Down B is how you multishine with fox/falco so the concept from them carries over. Lucas' timing for it feels a little less strict compared to fox's. I'll save the mind games after tech Lol

 

[D e l t a]

Lucas' timing for it feels a little less strict compared to fox's. I'll save the mind games after tech Lol

Yeah the timing can definitely be compared better to Falco's SH lasers with the laser height being relative to PKF height. Only difference is that one goes full screen distances, the other not so much lol.

As for mind games, why not learn them at the same time? There's no harm in learning multiple things at once. Sure, I learned, practiced, and mastered my tech skill before trying to advance many other skills. While doing so, I still was able to learn mind games, better spacing, and application of tech skill.

 

[TakaiSendo]

I find mind games a little difficult to do without an active opponent. I play with others two times a week on Thursdays and Fridays currently. Of course while playing I will be mixing those in because they are apart of the game after all.

 

[D e l t a]

It's basicaly just not doing something you would normally be doing or using your moves slower. Mind games are essentially a slower mixup

 

[TakaiSendo]

Yup Yup. PKF Coming along slowly. I'm at about a 10-20% ratio. When I play though I'll just force myself to do it and capitalize off a good one and air one and WD back if I cancel it.

 

[D e l t a]

When I play though I'll capitalize off a good one and WD back if I cancel it.

This is good if you recognize when to capitalize and when to back off. Notice when the enemy gets popped up or when they shield / clank / reflect / crouch cancel the PKF.

One piece of advice, don't make bad habits off of WD back from missed PKF input. Even if you don't get the PKF to come out, the opponent might get baited into jumping or shielding, at which point you can capitalize by anti-airing their jump (Upsmash / Utilt / Uair / Fair) or shield pressure / grab them If they decide to shield

 

[TakaiSendo]

Got a session tonight. Time to see the fruits of my labor. Which will probably be me sucking to change the bad habits I've already formed. =D

 

[D e l t a]

Best advice I can give to beginning Lucas players is to play it patiently and safe. Work on fundamentals such as maintaining stage control and not using laggy moves excessively - smash attacks, dash attack to approach a lot (this is something that will distinguish good players from the bad), PKF, Bair. Learn to recover well by mixing up tethers and UpB's. Understand how Lucas' combo game works and how to link moves together.

The best players have solid fundamentals. The tech skill & flashiness comes later.

 

[TakaiSendo]

Yup, I'm also stuggling with running ground magnet. Every now and then it just wont come out. Like nothing does and he just stops running. I know I'm hitting bot but nothing happens. Is there a time like during the dash slide cancel where you can't use a move? I'll have some streaming stuffs tomorrow night for direct feedback if any of you guys are interested.

 

[D e l t a]

There was a post Badge made talking about this actually. I can't remember where it was discussed (general thread maybe?). If you search through the general discussion, vids, or threads that refer to magnets you might be able to find the exact frame data n such.

Essentially you can use a move in the air faster if you short hop rather than by crouch cancelling the dash. So short hopped magnets will be easier / faster to use than running grounded mags. Runing grounded mags are actually slower than you would think to come out, unlike Fox/Falco's grounded shine

 

[TakaiSendo]

I found part of my problem. You can't do anythig during the start of a dash.

 

[TakaiSendo]

Two new guys showed up and they completely ripped the whole scene lol. I wasn't losing because I suck with lucas, their fundamentals was just that superior over mine. I felt as though I was doing all the right things just doing them super slow in comparison to how these guys were moving. I'm still thinking about DJC PKF some of the times and I really really need to go check out the fox matchup thread again. The pressure was soooo intense. And I think I got a dair OOS one time. After 4 ish hours I was able to start taking at least one stock and two if I was playing really well. Three if they realllyyy messed up. I got 1-2 Dacus off of PKF. It seems I don't have as much trouble with those while I'm actually playing someone.

Impovements that noticably needed to be made.


-Movement.
My movement wasn't bad but it wasn't the best. I had spots where it was pretty good but I need to be able to continue that type of movement throughout the entire game.

-Dash Attack
I was consistently getting destroyed from them WD back and punishing my dash attack. I feel the reason why I'm dash attacking cause I don't know how to properly approach, especially in a safe manner. I know Magnet is safe on shield but I'm having trouble using the grounded magnet in order to approach. Short hop magnet worked about 50% of the time and in some cases it got destroyed in what should of been a trade which usually ended up in their aerial winning outright. DJC PKF worked some of the times when it was spaced and timed exactly right. A lot of what happened vs the fox was his aerial would eat the PKF and then linger long enough to get the nair/bair shine. I'm sure that's just from me being to close or misjudging the distance the fox could cover before PKF would come out. I've heard DJC Fair is pretty good for an approach if spaced right. Is it? Lol

-OOS
I was getting destroyed in shield. It would either but insane pressure keeping me in shield or just flat out getting shine grabbed or w.e. I'll be reading the fox match up to find out if there is a reliable way to get out of aerial shine shield pressure. I will be practicing my OOS a lot so I can consistently WD OOS and Aerial OOS.

-Ledge
I would usually make it back on stage after being on ledge most of the time. But generally a well timed aerial would always pushing me right back to ledge. I think I really just need to practice my ledge tech. The other problem came with ledge guarding. I really think most of that would just come naturally with practice. I did start getting it towards the end with Dtilt/DSmash and of course forcing them on stage and doing a drop zone Fair/Nair depending on %. I really just need to work on punishing when they shine on to stage.


This is all I could remember xD Tonight I'll be streaming so I can link that and get better feedback with actual recorded gameplay. The competition tonight wont be as good but will still be pretty decent. We got a pretty good Ganon/Bowser in the group. Thanks =D

 

[D e l t a]

Ganon & Bowser can be troublesome until you reach the level that Kip & I are at. The armor, power, and range of those chars can be brutal

==

As for Fox, dont try to always punish with an aerial OoS. Try mixing up with wavedashes or keep it simple with rolls. If they do an early Nair/Dair on shield, buffer a roll away (C stick left/right in shield buffers a roll)

Stay moving and don't get stuck in shield. Learn to stay mobile and use PKF to zone out Fox. PKF is transcendent iirc and will go thru lasers. Use Fair / Nair to approach: much better than dash attack. Magnet -> SH Uair / Bair works amazingly well at low % and if your magnet -> Bair does the weird forced standup like a jab reset, you can get a free grab which leads into Upthrow combos

 

[TakaiSendo]

The ganon and bowser is better cause their fundamentals isn't as strong as the guys from yesterday. It'll let me accurately check where my lucas is at.

 

[TakaiSendo]

Uploading the videos now. Just watching them there's way to many things that I already know that needs to be fixed. Like a lot of things. The worst thing was not short hopping consistently, dash attacks, rolling, and really bad DJC PKF. I did hit one pretty nice combo and i'll link it when I the video is done being uploaded to YT.

Watching it again. I'm spending a ton of time either standing still or walking around...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODRK0F5mVGA
There isn't a great need to watch any big party of this due to just how crappy I was playing. Most of the stuff I'm missing is still pretty fundamental.

This just the last bit with me and one of my friends. The combo that I thought I hit ended up with a suicide. I believe I just needed to wait a little longer so the Dair didnt djc. It's at 57:31.

 

[TakaiSendo]

ANDDD I'm Back. More observations and questions.

Overall Play
Wave landing on platforms are easy now. I finally figured outlast night that I can wave land on the stage as well. I knew this but never put much thought into the added movement it gives.

Lucas Specific
Stop dash attacking so much. I know the reason why I do and it's because I'm not confident in the grounded magnet. Half the time it doesn't come out and when it does the wave dash out doesn't come out afterwards because it's hard for me to practice the timing of something that doesn't come out consistently.

The magnet -> fair shield pressure is coming along nicely. I need to practice magnet -> retreating fair a little bit more. Moving my hands in opposite directions is weird.

All of my combos. I make the reads but I don't feel like I'm doing optimal attacks to continue combos.

I need to practice the legde dash thingy. Deep should name this. I personally like Delta Dash(Display Picture). I can do it but I'm still waiting to long on the ledge so I come up without invincibility and get smacked.


Questions

1. I know during the dash animation you can't do anything except shield stop and jump, so do I need to jump magnet(fast enough so it stays grounded) or do I just need to make sure I'm running so I get a running magnet?


2. For combos I usually get two Uair links or Uair -> Aerial but it doesn't lead to anything after that. At higher percents the people I play against DI up and away out spacing a Fair, Dair, Bair, and Nair making it so only another Uair will connect. Is there anything I can do there besides that? The only thing I can think of is instead of doing Uair at higher percents do Fair instead and see what follow ups I can do from there.

3. Combo Part 2. At earlier percent 20ish when I get a grab and I use down throw. Should I ever use U. smash for guaranteed damage or go for an Fair, Uair, Dair, Nair, Magnet combo? There's situations where I'll have OP and I feel like the jump straight to 60-70% is probably worth it. The thing I'm thinking though is that it's probably possible to combo to 70% into OP U. Smash for a kill.

4. Retreating DJC PKF How are you guys doing it? I almost always get a B-Reverse.


As always.

Thanks

S.N - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEWSIOcaYVE

@8:43 There's the slight improvement you're looking for DeepVoiceGuy =D

 

[D e l t a]

I approve of everything you did at 8:43. That could not have been played better! (Y)