Low Tiers and The Tournament Scene

[Veril]

Yet another thread about the tier list...

Why do people care so much? So your character is viewed as bad, does it matter? I play Jigglypuff. Lots of people say she's garbage. I'm not gonna waste my time talking about how great she is and how unfair the tier list is. What would be the point of that? Its not gonna make her any different.

People should be less concerned about respect for their character than respect for them as a player.


Just accept that the tier list is a work in progress, and that as a competitive evaluator / tool it is most important to get the high tiers down first.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Really this thread should be closed. It's ONE person's opinion. End of discussion. This isn't some kind of community epidemic. One person. Doesn't need a thread. Who cares.

/thread

 

[Sky`]

How do these two posts by a Smash Back Room member make you feel?





Personally, I am sickened. With all the complaining about the "narrow" viable tournament options in a competitive world, here we have the authority of the Smash Competitive scene telling us that "narrow" is all we are going to ever get. Why stop playing Low Tiers in comparison to High Tiers?
Simple Reason: The High Tiers are more defined (stated in the quotes) while the Low Tiers are shrouded in ambiguity. Who knows what they are capable of? Aren't they just "the leftovers"?

The tier list might as well be :

Top Tier
High Tier
Everyone Else

So here are a few questions to ponder:

What can you, as a low tier character mainer, do to increase your character's level of respect in the tournament scene?
What can we, as a community, do to help the SBR form accurate tier lists with knowledge on EVERY character and not those "deemed viable"?

Respect in the tournament scene is given all the time. Look at Meow. Best Jiggs in the WC, if not the US. Everybody gives him respect, and he's an amazing player. His character is holding him back from placing high in tournaments, and I think he knows that, it's common sense. Low tier mains get respect all the time, they just don't get tangible rewards for their efforts, because the characters aren't viable to make it to that high of a placing. One can be the best Link Main in the world, but don't expect to see that person's tag in the first place spot at a regional.

What kind of respect are you talking about?

And... as a community, we've already taken apart this game much faster than we did with Melee. There are some characters that have been rightfully deemed, unviable, and it's not only tournament results that dictate that. The characters physics are just unviable for any stretch of tournament play, and his or her weaknesses have been expolited by these high tiers. equally, there are some Low tiers that are Wrongfully placed, like ZSS. However, that's what preliminary Tier-lists are for. They won't change drastically but I believe that some characters will move up, and exit the D tier and below category, but again... there's not much room for improvment in that regard.

Low tiers aren't the left overs, if anything, some of those low tiers have been played the most, and That's why we know that they are low tier. We've pushed them to their limit and now they rest at the bottom. The only thing that can save them, is some ground breaking technique that will change the tier list, and I'm not denying that possibility, but the law of averages dictates that with an engine like this, it's probably not going to happen.

But... here in lies the contradiction.

Though low tiers are just that, low tier, they still have a chance in tournament with the assistance of others to cover their bad matchups. Take AD for an example, or Typh. They've beaten the WC's top MKs in tournament. I can cite an example, which AD, a Pokemon Trainer Main, Beat Sean, Nor-cal's 1. Player with Pokemon trainer. Went on to beat N4N3RZ in tournament, and placed second I believe at a 70 man tournament. He did really well, and he went all PT. It wasn't really the character that did it, it was the lack of knowledge of the matchup that sent them in disarray. If AD had a sub to beat a snake, he would have taken first. With Low tiers, it's possible to excel, but doing it alone is unreasonable. Typh also took 7 stocks off of San diego Crew, which was amazing in it self.

So in conclusion. Those of you looking for respect in the Low tier industry, you've got it. to have the audacity to play them in tournament with aspirations of placing first is commendible, and I respect that. But if you're looking to place first, you're going to have to fess up and sub a character that's going to help take you there. Do that, or don't ***** about it. It's possible to get up there with your Low tier, you just need a Boost.

And honestly. Those two opening posts? Well, the second one specifically, if that's the kind of people working on SBR, I'm going to discredit the tier list completely. That idiotic talk isn't what we need to make tier lists accurate. That guy is a moron, and I'll say it to his face. It makes me unnerved to know that people who think like that guy/girl are on the SBR crew. Call me out on it, and I'll repeat it.

 

[c3gill]

brawl isnt so much about a set tier list so much as it is match ups.

and even though he is a low tier, I still main Lucas. I know that I will never be a brawl god, but i am decent enough to win small time tournaments with him. Better be happy playing with someone I enjoy than be awesome with someone I hate. We should still find a little fun in our competitive characters, and I love mine Lucas rocks!

 

[Veril]

Respect in the tournament scene is given all the time. Look at Meow. Best Jiggs in the WC, if not the US. Everybody gives him respect, and he's an amazing player. His character is holding him back from placing high in tournaments, and I think he knows that, it's common sense. Low tier mains get respect all the time, they just don't get tangible rewards for their efforts, because the characters aren't viable to make it to that high of a placing. One can be the best Link Main in the world, but don't expect to see that person's tag in the first place spot at a regional...



So in conclusion. Those of you looking for respect in the Low tier industry, you've got it. to have the audacity to play them in tournament with aspirations of placing first is commendible, and I respect that. But if you're looking to place first, you're going to have to fess up and sub a character that's going to help take you there. Do that, or don't ***** about it. It's possible to get up there with your Low tier, you just need a Boost.

Meow is pretty sick. There are a few other Jigglypuff mains around his level (Jigglesthepuff comes to mind).

I completely agree that you need to have a secondary. As a Jiggs/Lucas player I use MK to deal with GW and Marth.

 

[Red Arremer]

And honestly. Those two opening posts? Well, the second one specifically, if that's the kind of people working on SBR, I'm going to discredit the tier list completely. That idiotic talk isn't what we need to make tier lists accurate. That guy is a moron, and I'll say it to his face. It makes me unnerved to know that people who think like that guy/girl are on the SBR crew. Call me out on it, and I'll repeat it.

Those were done by a SBRoomer and moderator, yes. I wasn't able to believe it myself.

 

[Cioran]

Taking into account the level that 95% of Smashboarders play at, tier lists should be the least of your worries (mine included).

I said it before in another post: natural selection is as real in Brawl as it is in the jungle. How many of you are making money off of tournaments? ~5%? Maybe less? At the level most of us play at, beasting with a low tier isn't unheard of. Using Sonic or Lucas or PT, I'm sure many of you are able to **** or at least compete with many of your sparring partners. Are you going to beat M2K? Ally? Fiction? HELL NO. But you wouldn't have beat them even if you were using MK. That's just a stone cold fact.

Please don't think I am being negative or cynical -- I love this game and want everyone to pursue their own unrealized potential to its highest degree; however, I also urge people to examine their motives when choosing a main. Are you really going to win big tourneys? You're probably somewhere in the middle of a bell curve skill wise. So pick who you have FUN with. This thread has already listed countless examples of people who compete with low tiers, even at the highest levels. To join their ranks would be an honor!

- CiO

 

[DrGonzoPhD]

The mentality that you refuse to play a character other than your favorite, regardless of tier, ability or anything else, is not a winning attitude. A person with that attitude does not belong in a tourney. You are better off playing casual friendlies with people of a similar mindset.

However, if you really kick *** with a low tier and main it because you're most comfortable with their playstyle, then by all means. However, someone with skill who does this will usually have a high tier backup because most lower ranked characters have some simply unwinnable matches.

 

[Red Arremer]

The problem is not that the Low Tier characters are bad and have trouble winning - that's clear without argueing. The problem is that a member of the SBR, a "chosen" round of people who are representing the competetive Smash community, says that noone gives a **** about Low Tier, and that their players are stupid for not using MK.

 

[Hive]

idk i'm glad i main a low tier character. ^^ (edit: not bc she's low tier but bc of the character)
I respect people who think differently... however... metroid is my favorite series and taking your favorite vg character and getting her as far as I can is just the point of this game for me. sure i could have taken like mk or something if i was obsessed with winning only (and really mk is most logical choice if you do) however, smash is fun and i like being able to take characters i love as far as i can and try to represent my fave games . if smash was just*pick the bestest character and win at all costs* i wouldn't probably have even played it that much... (edit)I don't disagree with those who would, however, its just not my style.

 

[Yuna]

idk i'm glad i main a low tier character. ^^

Why? Why would you be glad you main a low tier character just because it's a low tier?

i respect people who think differently...

People who think differently? What, people who actively choose to main low tiers for cred despite losing? Very few people can actually do well with low tiers, thus, very few people are actually worthy of praise for their low tier maining.

Who cares if someone mains Yoshi if I can beat them using one hand and a half-broken controller? Sure, he's not tierwhoring, but it's not like he's worthy of praise just because he plays a low tier. You're not a true Competitive player if you think maining a low tier automatically makes you deserving of anything.

It's not about who you play as, it's about what you do with that character.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

People take the tier list too seriously.

They talk about "tournament viability", and automatically assume that someone is sandbagging when they use a low tier character.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of a tier list in itself. It's perfectly reasonable to try to figure out the overall potential shown by players. The problem is, we will never know everything about this game, and people assume that it is an end-all statement for how well someone will do.

I think Pokemon Trainer has the potential to get to at least mid tier. I think Mario and Doctor Mario have a fair amount of untapped potential in Melee. That's my personal opinion, and it does affect who I would use in tournament play.

The game hasn't been out for many years yet. There is plenty to learn about for a lot of characters. Don't use the tier list as a strict guideline, so much as a history archive.

Just learn as much as you can, and don't get caught in stupid matchups (DK vs. Dedede, for instance). That goes for any character you decide you want to use.

The SBR is a group of players who have shown skill and knowledge in the game. They're welcome to think whatever they want, just as you are. They're not really considered a representation of the general community, as far as I know. If they think low tiers aren't that important, so be it. I'm sure that some of them aren't important, but I'm going to use who I enjoy and who I feel has the potential to succeed, regardless if someone says that Pokemon Trainer and Wario aren't tournament-viable.

Hopefully the joke's on them when I do well. If not, then I have no one to blame but myself...but it's not about blame. I want to win, and I think I can win with my characters. I have fun with my characters, and those two points are good enough for me.

 

[LuigiKing]

I think Reflex hit the nail on th head. Nothing more to say =p

 

[Xyro77]

Why? Why would you be glad you main a low tier character just because it's a low tier?


People who think differently? What, people who actively choose to main low tiers for cred despite losing? Very few people can actually do well with low tiers, thus, very few people are actually worthy of praise for their low tier maining.

Who cares if someone mains Yoshi if I can beat them using one hand and a half-broken controller? Sure, he's not tierwhoring, but it's not like he's worthy of praise just because he plays a low tier. You're not a true Competitive player if you think maining a low tier automatically makes you deserving of anything.

It's not about who you play as, it's about what you do with that character.

you ***** and complain about every thing. you and inui are related i just know it.

 

[Sky`]

I swear, what is with the gaming community and the Anime Effect?

Honestly guys... the "If I work hard enough Onii-chan, I can make it to the top regardless of my character!" Attitude is growing tired.

But I guess that's where the competitive gamers and the casual gamers split.

 

[Kinzer]

What can you, as a low tier character mainer, do to increase your character's level of respect in the tournament scene?
What can we, as a community, do to help the SBR form accurate tier lists with knowledge on EVERY character and not those "deemed viable"?

When you pick Sonic as your main icon and representative in tournaments, there is nothing you can do about him.

I won't even go into detail as to why I am right, if you follow this forum you should know. It's been done over 9,000 times, we all are tired of it, and even the Sonic mains don't want to bring it up again because our side is disregarded.

However if you do reply to this particular post saying otherwise, I'll go right ahead to back it up.

 

[BentoBox]

I swear, what is with the gaming community and the Anime Effect?

Honestly guys... the "If I work hard enough Onii-chan, I can make it to the top regardless of my character!" Attitude is growing tired.

But I guess that's where the competitive gamers and the casual gamers split.

Nobody has claimed that they could win nationals with their low tiers in here. This thread was made to discuss the fact that some members of the S.B.R. admitted to not caring much about ANY low tier because they apparently do not matter, and hence reflect on what example the community's main authority is setting and the message they're portraying via their actions. This has nothing to do with the "Anime Effect".

 

[Sky`]

Nobody has claimed that they could win nationals with their low tiers in here. This thread was made to discuss the fact that some members of the S.B.R. admitted to not caring much about ANY low tier because they apparently do not matter, and hence reflect on what example the community's main authority is setting and the message they're portraying via their actions. This has nothing to do with the "Anime Effect".

I think I posted this in the wrong one. o_O

There are two threads, very similar.

In that other one, my post would be appropriate. XD
The one about a yoshi main.

 

[BentoBox]

Lolol. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221785

 

[Lawz.]

Why? Why would you be glad you main a low tier character just because it's a low tier?


People who think differently? What, people who actively choose to main low tiers for cred despite losing? Very few people can actually do well with low tiers, thus, very few people are actually worthy of praise for their low tier maining.

Who cares if someone mains Yoshi if I can beat them using one hand and a half-broken controller? Sure, he's not tierwhoring, but it's not like he's worthy of praise just because he plays a low tier. You're not a true Competitive player if you think maining a low tier automatically makes you deserving of anything.

It's not about who you play as, it's about what you do with that character.

no, you look at it the wrong way. when you use someone like Link for instance and you beat an MK and possibly win or at least place high enough, people are going to respect you. Why? because that person not only has the skill to beat a top tier but is showing people that you don't need to play the best characters to beat another. True just because you use a low tier doesn't mean you deserve anything, but like you said it's about what you do with that character. but you have to look at it both ways. what you are saying is absolutely true but there's more to it than what you think.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

no, you look at it the wrong way. when you use someone like Link for instance and you completely **** an MK and make him look like trash, people are going to respect you. Why? because that person not only has the skill to beat a top tier but is showing people that you don't need to play the best characters to beat another. True just because you use a low tier doesn't mean you deserve anything, but like you said it's about what you do with that character. but you have to look at it both ways. what you are saying is absolutely true but there's more to it than what you think.

I don't understand your logic. If it's as simple as "a Link beating a Meta Knight", chances are, the first thing I'm going to think is, "Wow, that Meta Knight player is terrible."

(Granted, I think that Link does better against MK than some low tiers, but that is besides the point.)

You might get people saying, "Good for you," but it doesn't matter if you're still losing the tournament.

Granted, win a tournament with Link, or beat a ranked Meta Knight player, and you might have something...but playing a random MK isn't going to matter. You may be good enough to beat a random Meta Knight player, but when you place, what does it matter?

Maybe respect for playing Link is good enough for you, but I'd prefer respect from winning tournaments, because that's what really matters to me.

 

[Kinzer]

What about respect for winning tournaments WITH low tiers?

I heard Boss has that luxury, or at least something like that.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What about respect for winning tournaments WITH low tiers?

I heard Boss has that luxury, or at least something like that.

That's great; you're getting extra respect for pioneering a character's metagame, as well as winning tournaments. Nothing wrong with that...but making it your aim simply to prove something is counterintuitive to playing to win.

 

[Lawz.]

I don't understand your logic. If it's as simple as "a Link beating a Meta Knight", chances are, the first thing I'm going to think is, "Wow, that Meta Knight player is terrible."

(Granted, I think that Link does better against MK than some low tiers, but that is besides the point.)

You might get people saying, "Good for you," but it doesn't matter if you're still losing the tournament.

Granted, win a tournament with Link, or beat a ranked Meta Knight player, and you might have something...but playing a random MK isn't going to matter. You may be good enough to beat a random Meta Knight player, but when you place, what does it matter?

Maybe respect for playing Link is good enough for you, but I'd prefer respect from winning tournaments, because that's what really matters to me.

i understand what you're saying and it's true but i was kind of just talking in general. Link vs MK usually means that MK wins. of course that MK could suck too. i should've included that tourney placement is more important but i was speaking in general.

 

[MeLL0W]

I find that the tier list can never be 100% accuarate and I know people know this. I as a Low tier main have beaten a high tier character many times as well as being ***** by them it just means I wasn't good enough to beat them not because I used a low tier. (And vice versa for the first statement)

In the competitive world I believe that it's the player's skill not the character they use. I know somewhere in our brawling lifetime we have beaten a High Tier with our Low tier so we know that it's not the characters, it's more or less the players skill not being sufficent to meet with our opponents as to why we lost. Id say the tier list should just be about how well the players are using the characters not about how hard they kick the lower tiers ***. because thats the player not the character.

Whatever I think the tier list sounds like someones biased opinion to me and should just be kept to themselves as to not start this ridiculous controversy.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I agree that the tier list isn't 100% accurate halfway down, but no...a lot has to do with the tier list. Some characters are just flat out better than others. It's easier for the same skilled MK to beat a Link than the same skilled Link to beat an MK, because MK has a good matchup against Link...and everyone.

With the OP, I kinda have to agree with that person who made the first post. If the SBR had to take time discussing the Ness/Lucas being 4.5 or take time discussing the gap between MK and other characters, I'd rather they do the latter. At a regional/national tournament, you're probably going to want to be more knowledgable of the higher tiers, because 90% of the people you face are relatively high tiered.

As long as we have a general idea of what tiers are like halfway down the list, I'm fine. Heck, I don't see why the tier list is a big deal. It's just reference. In my opinion, you should know your matchups better than you know your tiers--matchups come with the information of why you're bad/good against X character, what you can do to beat them, etc. Matchup discussion threads ftw.

Maybe it seems harsh that they say low tiers don't matter, but the higher tiers are "more important." You're running into more of them the higher level of tournaments you go to, so they're going to spend more time talking about the people 75% of people use at a tournament rather than spending the same time talking about the people 2% of people use at a tournament.

 

[3rd Ice Climber]

I think the teir list is based on how easy a chatacter is to use.
They put charcaters who take like 30 miniutes to learn at the top(Ex:Math,DDD)and get them to spam smash attacks, and characters who accually takes skill to learn like Lucas and ecspecally Jigglypuff, at the bottom.

I really do hope the Link and CF players rise up, and pwn all the Snakes and MK's.

Low teirs FTW!

 

[3rd Ice Climber]

I think the teir list is based on how easy a chatacter is to use.
They put charcaters who take like 30 miniutes to learn at the top(Ex:Math,DDD)and get them to spam smash attacks, and characters who accually take time and skill to learn like Lucas and ecspecally Jigglypuff, at the bottom.

I really do hope the Link and CF players rise up, and pwn all the Snakes and MK's.

Low teirs FTW!

 

[3rd Ice Climber]

I think the teir list is based on how easy a chatacter is to use.
They put charcaters who take like 30 miniutes to learn at the top(Ex:Math,DDD)and just spam smash attacks, and characters who accually take time and skill to learn like Lucas and ecspecally Jigglypuff, at the bottom.

I really do hope the Link, Jiggs and CF players rise up, and pwn all the Snakes and MK's.

Low teirs FTW!

 

[deepseadiva]

Why would you do that.

I mean really.

 

[Melomaniacal]

This guy is serious about CF beating MK, wow.

 

[po pimpus]

People, the post from that BRoomer tells me one thing that everyone with even a modicum of skill and experience should already understand:

TIER LISTS MEAN NOTHING TO A SKILLED PLAYER.

If you are good enough, you should be able to win with ANY character, regardless of the characters' inherent weaknesses/flaws. However, in the entire spectrum of Competitive Smashers, only 5-8% of all players possess that level of skill. Most people posting here will NEVER see the finals of large-scale regional or higher tourney. I don't care how many times you 3-stock your friend's scrubby Meta-Knight with Link, that **** isn't going to fly at a REAL tournament with REAL talent.

I play Luigi. I stomp the **** out of Metas and Snakes in friendlies ALL the time. In Melee, I was beating on Foxes and Marths all day, everyday. You know something? IT MEANS NOTHING TO ME. I know I'm badass with Luigi, but how many tournaments have I won in the entire course of my competitive history? ONE. One weakass eight-team doubles tourney. That's all.

I've been playing for years, and I can't begin to count how many times I've been aced out before the second or third round. There's a running joke about wether or not I'll get out of pools at a tourney, because to this day I never have. I have never once BLAMED IT ON MY CHARACTER.

I realized that I suck, and I can't begin to tell you how many times I've tried to change mains or pick up secondaries to shore up my weaknesses. I came to the conclusion that Luigi just suits my playstyle the best and have resigned myself to the fact that I will have to work at least 8x as hard as my opponent in order to eke out a victory.

Even though my peers give me major props for being able to hang with their much better mains, I understand the fact that I cannot afford to have an off day if I want to avoid being 3-stocked in under three minutes by some random Meta-Knight. I have sought ways of dealing with my mains weaknesses, and though the journey continues, I know that my main has untapped potential; that I have untapped potential for victory. Can Weegee and other low-tiers do it alone? HELL NO. That's what secondaries are for. Can he catch a few peeps by surprise and win crucial counter-picks and such? ABSOLUTELY.

That is what it means to be a low-tier main in Brawl... You have to be THAT much smarter and better than your opponent. If that sounds like too much work, then you're probably better off playing as Meta or Falco, they sound more your speed(quick learning curve, no really awful matchups, etc.)

TL;DR version:

The Backroom apparently allows idiots now. The tier list is a joke past C-Tier.

If you're a low-tier main. You NEED a secondary to handle your bad/nearly impossible matchups.

If you want to win RIGHT NOW, go learn Falco, because you're probably just going to be yet another scrubby Meta-Knight who'll be left wondering how you just lost to a Luigi player.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Not all low tiers have unwinnable matchups. Who is a sure thing win against the Pokemon Trainer? I contend no one. Even someone like Jigglypuff can perfectly well beat someone like Mr. Game & Watch; you just have to be willing to work hard and learn just what to do. Only a very few matchups are even near the class of DK vs King Dedede; most low tiers in brawl are more of the form "has few good matchups with the best characters" (though they tend to have a few) and less of the form "gets destroyed by certain key characters" which means that you can win without a secondary; it's just that you have to work a little harder and be a little better so a rational player is more likely to pick the top tiers even if they aren't that far ahead. People get kinda dumb with "brawl is easy" and refuse to do anything that isn't easy... That attitude also creates tons of hype that makes usage be skewed far beyond what the natural game suggests. I mean, if you're new to the game and look on the forum for how to win and see something like "use Meta Knight", you might just believe it.

It really is just use whom you think you can win with. If you are being honest with yourself and think the character is legitimately a character who can win, either you are right or you aren't good enough to benefit from using a better character anyway. It's just never the case that taking someone else's word about character worth without backing it up with your own experience helps you win.

 

[po pimpus]

It really is just use whom you think you can win with. If you are being honest with yourself and think the character is legitimately a character who can win, either you are right or you aren't good enough to benefit from using a better character anyway. It's just never the case that taking someone else's word about character worth without backing it up with your own experience helps you win.

QFT. It's true that it isn't 100% necessary to have a secondary, but a lot of players aren't willing to put in the time/effort needed to overcome their character's inherent flaws. For those people, a little backup in the form of a higher-tiered secondary could be a help.

My character doesn't have many terrible, unwinnable matchups, save for Dedede's ridiculous infinite, but it sure is frustrating to play a gimp-crazy Meta-Knight, knowing that you absolutely, CAN NOT allow him to knock you off the stage, while being pressured to hell and back by his near non-existant lag. Or facing a Snake who absolutely REFUSES to do anything but fling grenades, but the fact remains that it CAN be done, if you are patient enough and skilled enough.

You guys that just got into Smash over the last year or so, and are tired of people ignorantly( or even logically) putting down your character of choice:

STEP YOUR GAMES UP!

Learn your matchups. Play as the characters that give you the hardest time. Never quit learning, striving for perfection. Prove that you're the best at that character. Forget tier lists and such, and most importantly:

STOP COMPLAINING AND GO WIN SOME TOURNAMENTS!!

 

[Kinzer]

I think the teir list is based on how easy a chatacter is to use.
They put charcaters who take like 30 miniutes to learn at the top(Ex:Math,DDD)and just spam smash attacks, and characters who accually take time and skill to learn like Lucas and ecspecally Jigglypuff, at the bottom.

I really do hope the Link, Jiggs and CF players rise up, and pwn all the Snakes and MK's.

Low teirs FTW!

If that were the case, ICs would be near bottom if not the worst character by that logic.

I didn't want to use Sonic because even though he is technical he isn't all that good.

 

[Sky`]

People, the post from that BRoomer tells me one thing that everyone with even a modicum of skill and experience should already understand:

TIER LISTS MEAN NOTHING TO A SKILLED PLAYER.

If you are good enough, you should be able to win with ANY character, regardless of the characters' inherent weaknesses/flaws. However, in the entire spectrum of Competitive Smashers, only 5-8% of all players possess that level of skill. Most people posting here will NEVER see the finals of large-scale regional or higher tourney. I don't care how many times you 3-stock your friend's scrubby Meta-Knight with Link, that **** isn't going to fly at a REAL tournament with REAL talent.

I play Luigi. I stomp the **** out of Metas and Snakes in friendlies ALL the time. In Melee, I was beating on Foxes and Marths all day, everyday. You know something? IT MEANS NOTHING TO ME. I know I'm badass with Luigi, but how many tournaments have I won in the entire course of my competitive history? ONE. One weakass eight-team doubles tourney. That's all.

I've been playing for years, and I can't begin to count how many times I've been aced out before the second or third round. There's a running joke about wether or not I'll get out of pools at a tourney, because to this day I never have. I have never once BLAMED IT ON MY CHARACTER.

I realized that I suck, and I can't begin to tell you how many times I've tried to change mains or pick up secondaries to shore up my weaknesses. I came to the conclusion that Luigi just suits my playstyle the best and have resigned myself to the fact that I will have to work at least 8x as hard as my opponent in order to eke out a victory.

Even though my peers give me major props for being able to hang with their much better mains, I understand the fact that I cannot afford to have an off day if I want to avoid being 3-stocked in under three minutes by some random Meta-Knight. I have sought ways of dealing with my mains weaknesses, and though the journey continues, I know that my main has untapped potential; that I have untapped potential for victory. Can Weegee and other low-tiers do it alone? HELL NO. That's what secondaries are for. Can he catch a few peeps by surprise and win crucial counter-picks and such? ABSOLUTELY.

That is what it means to be a low-tier main in Brawl... You have to be THAT much smarter and better than your opponent. If that sounds like too much work, then you're probably better off playing as Meta or Falco, they sound more your speed(quick learning curve, no really awful matchups, etc.)

TL;DR version:

The Backroom apparently allows idiots now. The tier list is a joke past C-Tier.

If you're a low-tier main. You NEED a secondary to handle your bad/nearly impossible matchups.

If you want to win RIGHT NOW, go learn Falco, because you're probably just going to be yet another scrubby Meta-Knight who'll be left wondering how you just lost to a Luigi player.

This.

Where is Bento, because that statement is completely false

 

[.Marik]

*Sigh*

I keep telling people over and over...

It's just a list. Yes, they generally conclude the fundamental basics about said characters potential, and easy/hard/neutral matchups...

But Jesus, people, you don't judge a character just because of their placement on the ****ing tier lists. Grow some balls. Learn your character. BE your character, and win some Tournaments.

That's the only way low-tiers are going to rise any higher. Because of Tournament results.

TIER LISTS MEAN NOTHING TO A SKILLED PLAYER.

If you are good enough, you should be able to win with ANY character, regardless of the characters' inherent weaknesses/flaws.

Hurr hurr.

 

[AvaricePanda]

QFT. It's true that it isn't 100% necessary to have a secondary, but a lot of players aren't willing to put in the time/effort needed to overcome their character's inherent flaws. For those people, a little backup in the form of a higher-tiered secondary could be a help.

My character doesn't have many terrible, unwinnable matchups, save for Dedede's ridiculous infinite, but it sure is frustrating to play a gimp-crazy Meta-Knight, knowing that you absolutely, CAN NOT allow him to knock you off the stage, while being pressured to hell and back by his near non-existant lag. Or facing a Snake who absolutely REFUSES to do anything but fling grenades, but the fact remains that it CAN be done, if you are patient enough and skilled enough.

You guys that just got into Smash over the last year or so, and are tired of people ignorantly( or even logically) putting down your character of choice:

STEP YOUR GAMES UP!

Learn your matchups. Play as the characters that give you the hardest time. Never quit learning, striving for perfection. Prove that you're the best at that character. Forget tier lists and such, and most importantly:

STOP COMPLAINING AND GO WIN SOME TOURNAMENTS!!

This so much.

Fox has okay, winnable matchups against some of the higher tiered characters (Snake, D3), but crap ones against many others, high tier or not (MK, Shiek, Pikachu). There's no way I'm soloing a major tournament and expecting to win soloing as Fox. No way. I could try to do that (but lol Anther's right above me so I'm scared) and practice my butt off trying to win extremely hard matchups...

...or I could put down the pride I never had and just get different mains, secondaries, CPs, etc. for those matchups and make my time a lot easier. I'm not pro enough to be good with my character against any character and matchup...

Basically, if you're maining low-tier and are trying to go competitive, secondaries are your friend? Cover your crap matchups with not so crap matchups...it doesn't matter if your secondary is high or low tier, as long as your characters work in conjunction.

 

[PK-ow!]

How do these two posts by a Smash Back Room member make you feel?

Confused.

How can a person decide not to care about "the low tiers" when putting together a tier list, a project whose sole purpose is -a project which consists entirely *in*- figuring out what the tiers are?

Every matchup matters. Any moment of dismissive reasoning or lack of attention given to a character when appraising the game matrix is a point at which bad conclusions can creep in.

Maybe Link is super secret tech against MK. I don't know - but I'm hearing someone in the Back Room isn't too worried if we don't check?

It doesn't make sense.

What can you, as a low tier character mainer, do to increase your character's level of respect in the tournament scene?
What can we, as a community, do to help the SBR form accurate tier lists with knowledge on EVERY character and not those "deemed viable"?

The answer to the second, is there's only one thing to do, and it's the same as the answer to the first:

Get out there! Play your main, get *****, get better, win games, sweep brackets. Learn your matches, innovate, and demonstrate what your character can do.

 

[Ballistaboy]

Personally I think this is stupid, people who are posting that think tier lists don't mean something and It's all about the skill are ignorant.

I know for 1 that I can beat more people with MK and Snake than I can with a low tier char. no matter how long I practiced with them.

It is fun to play low tiers sometimes, but if you honestly think that low tiers or your favorite character will do that good in a tournament filled with people the same skill level using high tier chars and above, you should leave now.

Low tiers IMHO are for fun, casuals, and online. I believe most of Middle Tier and up are tourney viable. because the character skill between these tiers is not that large.

tl;dr This is pointless, Tier lists are worth something, Tourneys prove everything, If all that matters to you is fun then play which character will give u the most fun.