Low Tiers and The Tournament Scene

[Sky`]

Didn't they tell Da Vinci and the Wright Brothers that?



1. He has minions. You get to share your pain with 6 other guys, so thats good.

2. Maining him gives good perspective on preaching about perfect camping.

3. Blue gloves

4. Desynch seems to have untapped potential, so if we exploit that, its possible to smash opponents from across battlefield.

5. Even if that doesn't work out, perfect camping could pwn and put him in top tier anyway.

6. He just does so many things other characters can't. Grab people off ledges, deal 80 damage in 5 seconds, get gimped at 0 damage, the list goes on.

7. Previously, he was way lower on the tier list than he should have been, so everyone underestimated him. But then they raised him up like 7 spots.

8. No ridiculously time-consuming ATs.

They also said we'd never have a black president.

Or did I just help u thar?

=D

 

[Oracle]

Well, whatever. That's why the people who focus on their character, low tier or no are the ones who win Brawls, and find the AT's everyone else who act like you^ leeches off of later, especially when that character jumps up. They don't need counterpick characters at all, but hey. Your opinion is what would keep things from changing. It's Black History Month, no? It was the people who kept saying it was gonna change that were right. As Dark.Pch said, one word: Obama. Even better for low tiers is that in Brawl there are plenty of defensive options. So, yeah, when there are crazy Peach players out there, you are going to realize the truth, one way or another. After all, twas only after these changes happen that the people started to see. Dark.Pch. Do me a favor, and prove all of these pessimists wrong. Change is coming. The low tiers will slap you around. They don't have to get "*****" in matchups. After all, there is always one thing or another you can do about another character's advantages. If there weren't, then matchups would be impossible. Except, of course, the opponent might trip, or accidentally press the wrong buttons. It's like if characters couldn't do anything about Mach Tornado. Spamming it would be useful. But they can do something about it. Some of them just haven't figured out what these things are yet. And people like you are lowering spirits. The tier list, in itself is causing more people to flock to the higher tiers, whether or not the could have potential with a lower tier and have talents in discovering that character's true potential. Instead, they flock to the high-tiers and therefore, the lower tiers are understaffed, and therefore worse off.

Wrong. You think m2king just went to MK because he was high tier?

Spoiler

oh wait that's a bad example because m2k hate barwl

Thats not an opinion. I know you think that brawl is going to develop more advanced techs, but it won't. Sakurai specifically dumbed down the engine so there would be very few glitches. There were glitches in early versions, and he took them out. The new advanced techs are usually more like strategies. Even if more are found, they will not be gamebreaking enough to make a low tier rise.

There is nothing you can do about another characters matchup. Notice I said matchup, not advantages. They are bad matchups for a reason.

Low tiers will never be able to consistently win tournaments alone because you have to have so much more skill than your opponent to win, which is probably never going to happen, especially in something like semifinals.

 

[Deleted member]

Sky is a noob dont listen to him.
He's just trying to discourage you, cuz he doesnt want you to try hard.

Keep winning those regionals with low tiers guys. Lets show him that we arent afraid of his stupid rules.

Obama!!!

If you are determined enuf u can do it!


I love trolling sky


Yoshi is top tier *runs*

 

[XienZo]

They also said we'd never have a black president.

Or did I just help u thar?

=D

I think you did.

They also said that the United States would never ever ever need land west of the appalachians, and that the natives could keep it forever and ever and ever.


They also said that killing Olimar is as easy as killing his pikmin.

 

[|RK|]

^Thank you Xien. Oh and Sky? Fun fact, I'm black.

BTW change is the operative word, with Obama, Black History Month, etc. This is why despite being a Peach main, the only way you will rep her any better is by leeching off of the ignorant peoples' work. Brawl was designed so anyone can win. Were our bodies designed to fly? No. Silly comparison. And it figures that you are the ignorant person. How stupid is it to compare everyone who works hard to an anime character? Oh and:

"Tell me, how many other humans can run close to the speed of Bolt? Go ahead and count, I'll wait. Give up? The reason there are so few, is because few people are given that edge that puts them a step above the rest of the human race. There are people with the gift of physical strength, knowledge, and other such talents. They are at a level that hard work and dedication can't reach."

That is honestly the dumbest thing you've said, ever. How on earth do you think that they got to that level?! If you asked them, it would include how hard they worked to get there! They are not above the human race, otherwise they WOULD NOT BE HUMAN. Their gifts come from their dedication. Some of them have been doing this for years, constantly *gasp*... what's that word they use for it? Oh, wait: PUSHING THEIR LIMITS.

Tl;dr : Try again; you're still wrong.


EDIT:

oh wait that's a bad example because m2k hate barwl[/spoiler]
Thats not an opinion. I know you think that brawl is going to develop more advanced techs, but it won't. Sakurai specifically dumbed down the engine so there would be very few glitches. There were glitches in early versions, and he took them out. The new advanced techs are usually more like strategies. Even if more are found, they will not be gamebreaking enough to make a low tier rise.

Thank you for saying something so easy to disprove. M2K says Brawl is good, just not as good as Melee. Check it out in the interview answers topic.

 

[Oracle]

To respond to an argument properly, first quote the other person, separate his different points with quote tags, and then respond inbetween the quotes.

Good job not addressing any of my points. Even if you did, no one can tell.

 

[|RK|]

I edited. Dude.

 

[Praxis]

Is a Peach or lower tier winning a major tournament, without a secondary, impossible? No; but it's improbable to the point that it will likely never happen.

Consider that the top player will be Mew2King or a similar calibur player (DSF, Azen, etc). Then consider that if you are not a high tier, you will likely have a 60-40 or worse matchup against whoever they are playing. The odds of being able to overcome a 60-40 matchup against Mew2King? You'd have to either be playing a character he has never faced before and hope surprise evens it up, and still be equal in skill, or you'd have to be a significantly better player.

Could Mew2King win a tournament using a mid tier character and being a purist? That's the real question. Personally, I don't believe he could do it without a secondary. If you argue that Mew2King could, that's fine. If you think you're better than Mew2King, you're living in anime-world.

Sheer willpower is not always enough.

Didn't they tell Da Vinci and the Wright Brothers that?

The Wright brothers didn't make a human fly, they found a way to boost a human into the air.

That's like...secondarying a high tier to cover your bad matchups to make flight, I mean, winning, possible.

Oh wait- that backs up Sky's point quite nicely. Thanks for the example.

So who are you to call someone an "anime kid" when they decide to have more balls than you?

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but hasn't Sky been doing just that for the last year? He's been a Peach purist in NorCal and earned a spot on the PR with just Peach, and has only recently finally began using secondaries in tournament.


Characters are like chess pieces. Personally, I believe that a mid tier character CAN win a tournament...but only with a secondary to cover bad matchups. This has been proven by Azen; he placed second in a tournament using Peach for 80% of matches, and Fox for the other 20%, only using Lucario in finals vs Mew2King and only losing to Mew2King. And none of us in this thread are as good as Azen. xD

 

[|RK|]

Flights

His first successful trial was on 24 June 2004 near Geneva, Switzerland. Rossy has made more than 30 powered flights since. In November 2006 he flew with a later version of his jetpack.[citation needed]

On May 14, 2008 he made a successful 6-minute flight from the town of Bex near Lake Geneva. He exited a Pilatus Porter at 7,500 feet with his jetpack. It was the first public demonstration before the world's press. He made effortless loops from one side of the Rhone valley to the other and rose 2,600 feet.

It has been claimed that the military has been impressed and asked for prototypes for the powered wings, and that Rossy kindly refused the request and stated it is only for aviation enthusiasm purposes.[15] [16][17]

On 26 September 2008, Yves successfully flew across the English Channel from Calais, France to Dover, England in under 10 minutes[18] (9 minutes 7 seconds[19]). His speed reached 186 mph during the crossing[20], and was at 125 mph when he deployed the parachute[21].


^Flight.

 

[Oracle]

I edited. Dude.

You edited in one point that I made and only responded to the first sentence of it.

 

[XienZo]

Wrong. You think m2king just went to MK because he was high tier?

Spoiler

oh wait that's a bad example because m2k hate barwl

Thats not an opinion. I know you think that brawl is going to develop more advanced techs, but it won't. Sakurai specifically dumbed down the engine so there would be very few glitches. There were glitches in early versions, and he took them out. The new advanced techs are usually more like strategies. Even if more are found, they will not be gamebreaking enough to make a low tier rise.

But what if not enough people play that character, so the character is INCORRECTLY put in a lower tier than it should be? What if the potential isn't fully tapped, like PT and Sonic?

There is nothing you can do about another characters matchup. Notice I said matchup, not advantages. They are bad matchups for a reason.

Didn't they reverse Snake>MK matchup just because the MKs just kept trying to beat Snake, and proved that "grenade and ability to KO insanely early makes Snake win" logic doesn't work?

Low tiers will never be able to consistently win tournaments alone because you have to have so much more skill than your opponent to win, which is probably never going to happen, especially in something like semifinals.

By the time you consistantly win tournaments, SBR's going to make your character jump a tier though.


I also want to point out that Captain Falcon can easily outrun Bolt.

 

[Praxis]

For the record, I am a Peach Purist. I only play Peach in tournaments as is. And I think it's possible for me to win local tournaments, but I will never win a national with DSF or Mew2King present without a tournament viable secondary.

^Thank you Xien. Oh and Sky? Fun fact, I'm black.

Fun fact, so's Sky.

 

[|RK|]

"Could Mew2King win a tournament using a mid tier character and being a purist? That's the real question. Personally, I don't believe he could do it without a secondary. If you argue that Mew2King could, that's fine. If you think you're better than Mew2King, you're living in anime-world."

Hey, we can beat M2K with enough practice. And why is it suddenly better to say M2K can do something, take a mid-tier through a tournament, no secondary, when we can't say that we possibly can? Totally unfair, that we can only say the people at the top can do it. Look at M2K. It is consistently said CPU's are the worst ways of training, but he took it to the next level and used them for practice. Can you laugh at the results?

EDIT: I was mimicing Sky' .... I know he's black too, hence why I said it.

Oh, and thank you again, Xien. Xien responded for me, so...

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

We need to show how "Insert character" is good.If Olimar,Lucario and Diddy can do this,then maybe your character can too.But that chance is slowly evaporating as the metagame evolves,So if you need to show "character" as a viable character,its better to do it NOW!

 

[Praxis]

Hey, we can beat M2K with enough practice. And why is it suddenly better to say M2K can do something, take a mid-tier through a tournament, no secondary, when we can't say that we possibly can? Totally unfair, that we can only say the people at the top can do it. Look at M2K. It is consistently said CPU's are the worst ways of training, but he took it to the next level and used them for practice. Can you laugh at the results?

So your argument is that you can potentially be better than Mew2King, then win tournaments with a secondary?

I concede. Good luck with that.


Theoretically, anything's possible; theoretically, I could play as Wolf and Shine through everything with invincibility frames, or Whistle through everything with Olimar, and never ever die and three stock everyone I play. We have to limit things to the realm of our limitations here, and right now, Mew2King is the peak of human ability in Brawl.

 

[|RK|]

Oh, I have secondaries, just not as counterpicks. Besides, me specifically, maining a character that has no REALLY bad matchups, doesn't need a secondary anyway. I'm like Zorro in that way, though. Ironically, Xien and I have characters tied on the Tier List.

P.S. Zorro was rich, but fought for the abused and mistreated poor.

 

[Praxis]

Oh, I have secondaries, just not as counterpicks. Besides, me specifically, maining a character that has no REALLY bad matchups, doesn't need a secondary anyway. I'm like Zorro in that way, though. Ironically, Xien and I have characters tied on the Tier List.

P.S. Zorro was rich, but fought for the abused and mistreated poor.

Yeah, I enjoy playing the disadvantaged matchups, it's actually fun. G&W is my favorite matchup.

Except Metaknight- once a MK figures out the matchup and shieldcamps the entire match and nados every time I pull a turnip, it just becomes stupid >_>

And BTW, Lucario is not mid tier. Lucario CAN win a tournament. The tier list is governed by matchups, and if you have a character with no horrible matchups (aka Lucario), you can win a tournament. Lucario IS tournament viable without secondaries IMO.

 

[XienZo]

Theoretically, anything's possible; theoretically, I could play as Wolf and Shine through everything with invincibility frames, or Whistle through everything with Olimar, and never ever die and three stock everyone I play. We have to limit things to the realm of our limitations here, and right now, Mew2King is the peak of human ability in Brawl.

BTW, thats actually impossible because the shine/whistle has lag frames where they aren't invincible/super armor, so they could attack then.

 

[|RK|]

And BTW, Lucario is not mid tier. Lucario CAN win a tournament. The tier list is governed by matchups, and if you have a character with no horrible matchups (aka Lucario), you can win a tournament. Lucario IS tournament viable without secondaries IMO.

I know. Like I said, he has no LARGE disadvantages. I knew he was High Tier. He's tied with Olimar for 10/11th place. B Tier. Sadly he went down from his spot of 9, but, you win some, you lose some.

 

[Praxis]

BTW, thats actually impossible because the shine/whistle has lag frames where they aren't invincible/super armor, so they could attack then.

If you were playing it perfect, you wouldn't use Shine/whistle until they were throwing out their attacks. Only one-frame attacks would give you trouble (Marth up-B). The only way they could hit you AGAIN during the lag frames would be if it were a multi-hit attack, and if you're a theoretical perfect player, you would then immediately SDI/TDI out of the multihit attack before the final hit with knockback lands and thus not be killed by it even at 999%.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'll say this once, and only once.

Win a Regional tournament with Peach, Alone.

Or shut your F*cking mouth.

So tense sky, then you have the Nerve to get on me and even quote something dumb from niko. Take a look at yourself now.

For your request i'll work my azz off as much as possbile and in due time i'll make it happen.

But in general, you getting all pissed at me for what I said all cause one decides to try and look for an answer HEAD on instead of saying (sorry it is too hard, switch). And you gonna call him or anyone else who thinks like him) an anime kid. Like wtf.

You go and have your secondaries and play to win, but dont sit here and get at other people for thinking and trying stuff you don't have the balls to do. so YOU shut your f*cking mouth and go back to focusing on playing to win.

 

[Oracle]

But what if not enough people play that character, so the character is INCORRECTLY put in a lower tier than it should be? What if the potential isn't fully tapped, like PT and Sonic?

How do you know that the potential hasn't been fully tapped? It probably has because of barwl's shallowness.

Didn't they reverse Snake>MK matchup just because the MKs just kept trying to beat Snake, and proved that "grenade and ability to KO insanely early makes Snake win" logic doesn't work?

You realize the original matchup was determined about 2 months after barwl came out, right? The metagame has been evolving for a while, but it's been slowing down.

By the time you consistantly win tournaments, SBR's going to make your character jump a tier though.

But you won't be able to if your character is low tier.

But in general, you getting all pissed at me for what I said all cause one decides to try and look for an answer HEAD on instead of saying (sorry it is too hard, switch). And you gonna call him or anyone else who thinks like him) an anime kid. Like wtf.

Well yeah. If they have the same mental pattern, then they are both anime kids.

You go and have your secondaries and play to win, but dont sit here and get at other people for thinking and trying stuff you don't have the balls to do. so YOU shut your f*cking mouth and go bad to focusing on playing to win.[/COLOR]

wow calm down.

 

[|RK|]

@Drk.Peach: *claps* Amen bro, amen.

 

[XienZo]

If you were playing it perfect, you wouldn't use Shine/whistle until they were throwing out their attacks. Only one-frame attacks would give you trouble (Marth up-B). The only way they could hit you AGAIN during the lag frames would be if it were a multi-hit attack, and if you're a theoretical perfect player, you would then immediately SDI/TDI out of the multihit attack before the final hit with knockback lands and thus not be killed by it even at 999%.

Whistle has almost quarter-second after the super armor wears off, and ~10 frames is troublesome. I'm not sure about the shine, but I'm sure that it has a bit of lag afterwards, long enough for stuff like Marth and MK's tilts.

And Ice Climbers are still going to give you hell.

 

[Cioran]

Sky owned you guys and you don't realize it. >_<

Idealism and fantasy are sometimes wonderful/sometimes dangerous byproducts of human consciousness. I think this is a case of the latter.

 

[|RK|]

Cioran. Sky' is wrong. There is nothing impossible in a video game. Ever.

 

[XienZo]

How do you know that the potential hasn't been fully tapped? It probably has because of barwl's shallowness.

Because I have never seen/heard anyone with absolute mastery of all 3 of PT's pokemon. Many just focus on Charizard and the other two are focused on hitting the foe long enough to switch to Charizard, aka decent, but not mastery.

You realize the original matchup was determined about 2 months after barwl came out, right? The metagame has been evolving for a while, but it's been slowing down.

What about Yoshi vs MK? Didn't he rise to being arguably even over time?

But you won't be able to if your character is low tier.

Well, the paradox is that a character is only low tier if they can't win tournaments consistantly. Instead trying to win consistantly with a low tier character, they should work on getting their low tier character out of low tier.

 

[Dark.Pch]

wow calm down.

Did you not see what I quoted of him, and you gonna tell me to calm down and not say anything to him?? I swear this community......

And Sky owned no one. He isn't doing a damm thing. Other people are and wanna true answers head on and not going on by opinions and playing chicken.

 

[|RK|]

Tsk, tsk. It's a shame that the Smash Debater is bringing the weakest and most biased arguments to the table.

 

[Tenki]

You realize the original matchup was determined about 2 months after barwl came out, right?

Though, that could be said for the matchups of pretty much any character where something potentially character-specific and destructive was found and/or developed (ex: Wario infinites, Yoshi CGs on MK, etc).

 

[bigman40]

Is Yoshi viable because he has no worse match-up than 40:60 regardless of stages?

I don't really know why this alone would be a reason to make someone viable. At any rate, I think that it's not only that, but his abilities are more manageable against the cast than other lower characters.


Then again, it's my opinion >_>

 

[NinjaFoxX]

I don't really know why this alone would be a reason to make someone viable. At any rate, I think that it's not only that, but his abilities are more manageable against the cast than other lower characters.


Then again, it's my opinion >_>

its enough to make him quite viable, no bad matchups?sounds like mid tier at best...

 

[Yuna]

__________________
so basically just saying that
-dark peach is one of the only people on peach boards that's listened to and that people don't respect other opinions.

I didn't say he was the only person, though. Stop misreading my posts.

Thats a pretty big exaggeration

Good day, have you met Dark.pch?

 

[JesiahTEG]

Because I have never seen/heard anyone with absolute mastery of all 3 of PT's pokemon. Many just focus on Charizard and the other two are focused on hitting the foe long enough to switch to Charizard, aka decent, but not mastery.

Anyone that thinks Charizard is better than Squirtle is just fail.

 

[BentoBox]

Squirtle has as much trouble killing as Sheik. Char kills more easily, is heavier, has a better recovery, has grab release shenanigans, useful b-moves, range... I like Char better yeah, but to each his own.

 

[Hive]

I didn't say he was the only person, though. Stop misreading my posts.

i never said you did. stop misreading mine. :/

anyone that thinks Charizard is better than Squirtle is just fail.

charizard is better than squirtle in certain matchups though. i'm pretty sure metaknight at least. squirtles kickass, and is so hard to face as samus! but charizard is nowhere near bad if played right. i've even heard from some that if charizard were a character by themself that they would be able to reach high tier even.
his rocksmash is devastating when used right ^^ and his flamethrower is an awesome edgeguard. (even against samus, and that's saying a lot bc samus owns the ledge ^^ it forces you to stall or get hit (or zair through the ledge if able to))

 

[Yuna]

i never said you did. stop misreading mine. :/

Stop being illogical then.

BentoBox claimed I did something. I asked for quotes to prove did erroneous claim. In response, you quoted me.

To do what? Prove I did something BentoBox didn't say I did, something I never denied doing? Why would you take my "challenge" and quote me to prove something else entirely than what is being asked?!

 

[BentoBox]

Wait wah? The only post I directed towards you, Yuna, was concerning Drk.Peach's influence in our matchup discussions. o,o

 

[Hive]

Stop being illogical then.

BentoBox claimed I did something. I asked for quotes to prove did erroneous claim. In response, you quoted me.

To do what? Prove I did something BentoBox didn't say I did, something I never denied doing? Why would you take my "challenge" and quote me to prove something else entirely than what is being asked?!

what are you talking about?
1. i wasn't even responding to bentobox. i was responding to rickedy-doo-da-day
2. I never even said that you said dark peach was the only person used in the matchup thread either. (you can even check the post you quoted from me).
3. you said that dark peach was one of the very very few quoted on peach boards. that being apart from him being the only one is only slightly less lame. and also the "ignorant masses" thing. i was just saying that you couldn't pretend he made it all up because you asked to show where he was getting his points from. don't pretend like i was trying to show things i wasn't :/

 

[-Mars-]

Squirtle has as much trouble killing as Sheik. Char kills more easily, is heavier, has a better recovery, has grab release shenanigans, useful b-moves, range... I like Char better yeah, but to each his own.

Except Sheik doesn't have problems killing so I have no clue why you would even bring that up.