Lucario - Double Team

[|RK|]

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My name is... well you can call me Timothy, as it's my middle name. I am 15 years old. Last year, the Pokemon Lucario was in a Dojo entry. Now, I was quite out of Pokemon at that point in my life, but his Dojo entry had quite captivating pictures. Now since Kirby had been my most played character in Melee, I had originally intended to main him. But there was something captivating about this page. I decided I would play him. One day at a Gamestop, still not having Brawl, I decided to try out two characters; Kirby and Lucario. Lucario turned out to be my best, so I chose to main him. I received Super Smash Brothers Brawl a little while after Christmas. My first goal was unlocking my main. A lot of things has happened since then, and I believe that I am an average Lucario player. Now, it appears I have a talent for he obvious in the advancement of the metagame. I created an Aura topic on the Lucario Boards and a Copy Ability topic on the Kirby Boards. While this may seem like obvious things, no one had thought to do them. I have also invented CBAs. I'd say that my thinking level is rather high. But I share different opinions on things than others. For example I believe that any character can win a tournament without the use of a secondary. Many people don't believe that. It's the same as telling people you got a hole-in-one. They won't believe it until they have seen it. This blog is to show my thoughts and growth as a competitive smasher on SWF.

NOTE: On the Lucario IRC, I am known under the nickname Lucario.

I recently had a scuffle on the Olimar boards with members of the Lucario Boards. Everyone there thinks I'm crazy because I believe that the matchup is 45:55 Lucario:Olimar, and I believe that Pikmin latching on makes Double Team useful. I really do believe that Double Team is useful. Others write it off as a terrible move. No one is providing an actual rebuttal to my points about Double Team and the general consensus is "Shut up, it's bad and if you think it's good, you shouldn't be posting here." I really do believe that Double Team is useful (with Pikmin Latching) for the following reasons:

1) You can surprise attack for free
2) You are invincible while attacking
3) You get up rather fast and can chain it into combos
4) At full power (Maxcario) it kills Olimar at 78% (No DI)
5) At total power (Onecario) it kills him even lower
6) It can be used to gimp Olimar while recovering
7) It can be used to Wall Cling w/out a second jump or ES
8) Since one of Olimar's attacks (U-Tilt/U-Air) outranges our D-Air, we could strike him while invincible
9) We could use it to teleport from strong attacks (or dash grabs) since we are invincible the entirety of the attacks duration
10) It could work as a quick punishment for laggy attacks at short distances.

So latching Pikmin isn't a good idea, especially since we also get an Aura Boost from these attacks that don't have any knockback. So I figure, unless their throwing a Pikmin to stop an Aura Sphere, they shouldn't use Pikmin Throw. I don't get agreements on that, they still think it's terrible. Even so, if we don't have a Pikmin latched onto us, we could use Double Team for the following tricks:

1) Slowing our fall after fast-falling to momentum cancel so we could aim Extreme Speed better for recovery.
2) Short hop mindgames, since you stop your fall after using Double Team
3) Spring Canceling so we never visibly move on a spring.

There are others, including the fact we can control a lot of the stage by switching direction and it allows for a U-Tilt w/out really moving if you like Tap Jump on. However, most Lucarios will still never use Double Team. I'm one of the very few who think that every move in Lucarios repetoire is useful. Even Force Palm Flame. But most of the community disagrees with me. Yet if I happen to find an Advanced Technique for these moves, they'd all leech off of my findings because I'd still probably be kind enough to teach them. I'm sure that many people think I should never use these moves, but the way to find ATs and such is by using the move and doing some crazy tests. I have a few tests in mind, but I won't post them here for the fear other Lucarios will read this and find an AT through my tests. Sure I'd show them, but I don't think it's worth it when they all call you crazy. Oh well, some of the Earth's brightest and most acclaimed people were called crazy for certain theories and were eventually proved right, and they still shared. So I suppose I will too. For Lucarios everywhere.

-Lucario

 

[:mad:]

Wrong place to be posting this. Jam. Move it?

 

[fromundaman]

You sir, are wrong.

Here is the inherent design flaw with double team: The animation is long enough that you can perfect shield it when you hit it with almost any move, even if it takes you by surprise. For a move that has no lag, like Pikmin toss, that is even more true.
Even better, when you perfect shield, you have enough time to punish with a Mario or Kirby Fsmash, both of which, while not extremely slow, have a decent amount of startup lag. So basically, by trying to double team an Olimar, you have just opened yourself up to a hyphen smash for the kill, or, at low percents, a grab/Fsmash/Usmash/Dtilt/Utilt/Dsmash/any SH aerial.

 

[Browny]

^^ doesnt use lucario

you cant perfect shield DT whenever you want. DT should only be used on attacks which people KNOW will have more enough lag. that is pretty much limited to aerials with enough landing lag. Apply the exact same logic to marths upb out of shield but substitute lag for range. you should only use it on attacks which pressure your shield from close range. you wouldnt use his upb oos vs a DDD ftilt or DK's down b now would you? DT is only punishable if the person using it either predicted an attack incorrectly or misjusdged the lag on attack. This applies to every attack in the game though (except metas dtilt lol). Its just far more obvious with DT when the margin for error is tiny.

 

[fromundaman]

You are absolutely right, I don't use Lucario much. However, there are 4 Lucario mains in my area, so I'm telling you what usually happens when they use it against me. I can tell you right now that it is slow enough for me to perfect shield it despite the landing lag on Kirby's aerial hammer...

HOWEVER, what you said does not apply to the usage mentioned in the OP (pikmin latched onto you) unless the Oli player threw one then tried an aerial.

 

[Nodrak]

1) You can surprise attack for free
You can pull a free Double Team off which is nice, but a competitive smasher with any sense of reaction time will be able to shield the double team, then punish the bit of ending lag you get

2) You are invincible while attacking
This statement is false. You are NOT invincible while double teaming.

3) You get up rather fast and can chain it into combos
This is assuming Olimar (or whoever you use it on in a team match) gets hit by the attack. Most of the time, your counter will be shielded

4) At full power (Maxcario) it kills Olimar at 78% (No DI)
Double Team's killing power is nice =D

5) At total power (Onecario) it kills him even lower
What's the diffrence between total power and full power?

6) It can be used to gimp Olimar while recovering
Doubleteam -> edgegrab is extremely situational, just about any attack you do to get Olimar offstage will kill the pikmin on you. If Olimar is throwing pikmin at you while he's offstage he's a dead olimar anyway (no good olimar would throw their tether recovery away right before using it.) It would be easier just to jump offstage and grab the edge or use ExtremeSpeed to grab the edge. Using Double Team offstage is also a bad idea, it would be easier and safer to use dair or fair (even bair)

7) It can be used to Wall Cling w/out a second jump or ES
Situational, only 2-3 tourny legal stages actually have places to cling to and it's pointless to for the most part. It's a cool trick but that's really all it is, a trick. Not too much practical value.

8) Since one of Olimar's attacks (U-Tilt/U-Air) outranges our D-Air, we could strike him while invincible
Lucario is not invincible while we're attacking using Double Team. You'll probably hit Olimar since he'll still be recovering from utilt/uair but Olimar CAN hit a countering lucario. Or Olimar will just shield it then punish you.

9) We could use it to teleport from strong attacks (or dash grabs) since we are invincible the entirety of the attacks duration
Assuming the pikmin hits you before the grab/attack reaches you, yes. But it may take a second for the pikmin lached on to hit you.

10) It could work as a quick punishment for laggy attacks at short distances.
If you countered the laggy attack yes, if you counter using a pikmin lached on, probably not.
Olimar uses laggy attack
Lucario uses DownB
Small bit of time passes
Pikmin lached on Lucario hits Lucario
Lucario teleports
Bit of time passes
Lucario re-appears and starts his attack
By this point, most of olimar's attack lag (for any attack I can think of) will have ended, enabling Olimar to shield or spotdodge the double team.


With a lot of these, your assuming Lucario is invincible from the time he starts the counter till the time he hits the opponent. He is not. Assuming the counter works, Lucario teleports, then slides across (which is the attack.) Lucario can be hit at any point in this slide. The enemy's attack, depending on it's priority, may hit lucario. Not only that, but because Lucario's counter is slow, the time between Lucario getting hit and Lucario attack-sliding is rather long, it's enough to give the opponent time to shield, spotdodge or even SHAD. In fact, I used to use Double Team, but my friend got the timing to perfect shield it by listening to the sounds. He'd tap L at a certain point after hearing the 'woosh' that signals Lucario's counter worked causing a perfect shield that he could attack out of to counter my counter. Don't get me wrong, I still like Double team, and it's not a horrible attack. It's just situational. It's an attack that should be used sparingly.


1) Slowing our fall after fast-falling to momentum cancel so we could aim Extreme Speed better for recovery.
Not a good use for double team. Why? It teleports you lower to the ground (pointless if you want to momentum cancel) and it keeps falling (meaning it does not cancel momentum.) It also requires an attack to hit you (except with pikmin on you of course) and last but not least; dair does this in half the time, without the enemy having to hit you, it has a disjointed hitbox and you can do it in high heels.

2) Short hop mindgames, since you stop your fall after using Double Team
You don't really stop your fall. =\ Even if you do 'stop your fall', you re-appear predictably, anyone with any competence will shield the attack and counter your counter. Also, using Double Team in the air raises you slightly before waiting to be hit, making it a bit harder for the enemy to hit you (assuming the enemy hits you to begin with)

3) Spring Canceling so we never visibly move on a spring.
Dair does this without requiring to be hit and it does it faster. You can also end up inside the spring on levels like pictochat

Keep in mind, if you screw up the double team i.e. you didn't predict your opponent's attack properly, or if your opponents holds shield after he realizes you hit downB, your double team is not only useless, but leaves you wide open for punishes.

Again, I personally like double team, but I rarely use it. I'm not saying your entierly wrong, just giving an actual counter to the points your making.

 

[SexTornado]

This topic was just owned.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Yeah, this doesn't belong here.

 

[Timbers]

^^ doesnt use lucario

you cant perfect shield DT whenever you want. DT should only be used on attacks which people KNOW will have more enough lag. that is pretty much limited to aerials with enough landing lag. Apply the exact same logic to marths upb out of shield but substitute lag for range. you should only use it on attacks which pressure your shield from close range. you wouldnt use his upb oos vs a DDD ftilt or DK's down b now would you? DT is only punishable if the person using it either predicted an attack incorrectly or misjusdged the lag on attack. This applies to every attack in the game though (except metas dtilt lol). Its just far more obvious with DT when the margin for error is tiny.

wtf lol almost every move in this game has little enough lag where you can shield after activating a DT. dont pretend like its viable. marth uB can punish almost every move in the game, and unlike DT, you dont have to predict when the opponents going to throw out an attack.

 

[|RK|]

Yeah, well, I just want to find some way for it to be competitively useful. After all, about now no person expects us to use it at all. If you know how to use it you can catch them completely off-guard. Nodrak, by invincible, I do not at all mean the movements. I mean the sliding attack itself. You can't even be grabbed while doing it. So I'm gonna try out some crazy ideas hopefully tomorrow. Some way to Double Team cancel. Cause if it works we could just Instant Transmission all over the place, lol.

@Nodrak

1)Hmm... does RDT get less ending lag, because I don't see much ending lag from it...

2) While sliding, yeah, you are invincible, even to grabs.

3) RDT is the one good for combos because of where you land.

4) I know. At Onecario his F-Smash is as strong as Dedede's

5) Full power is 172%, Total power is 172% AND two stocks down (My facts need to be stickied...)

6) You have a point there.

7) Useful sometimes, since most people will be waiting for us to grab the ledge since ES does no damage. Since falling from an edge doesn't give invincibility frames, they'd have to head back for the stage and out of our way, allowing us to use ES after a Wall Cling. That and we won't have to waste ledgegrabs.

8) If it's a U-Air, the only way to stop it would be airdodging, which wouldn't be good for their landing.

9) True. Except if you're lucky enough to have more than one Pikmin latched on or just a White Pikmin. Even better if it's two White Pikmin.

10) It doesn't take that long to reappear... once again, White Pikmin. And DTeam doesn't stall THAT long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtTrTZZVA-M
Old, but, yeah...

1) These I meant without a Pikmin and just general use. It actually slows your falling speed to below you normal falling speed while it's active. Sadly you can't DI with it. But it's safer than using Extremespeed right while you're fast-falling.

2) Again, with no Pikmin. Double Team stops your ascension and causes you to fall slowly.

3) Point taken. But if you trick them into expecting an aerial and they attack, Double Team's success rate for normal attacks is higher.

Tell you the truth, I don't use Double Team often either. I just wanted to make the point that it isn't unusable. I actually forget to use it even on slow attacks. Mostly if I have Pikmin on me, but even then I just N-Air it. Just making an argument for it. It isn't completely worthless is all I'm saying.

 

[phi1ny3]

It has IASA frames to allow it to cancel about a 1/3 of its lag, but it's still pretty situational (aka bad).

 

[Melomaniacal]

First off, you came off a bit arrogant in the first paragraph (it's not higher thinking, it's different thinking).

I was going to respond to each of your numbers, but that's been taken care of pretty nicely. Bottom line is it's punishable.

There are others, including the fact we can control a lot of the stage by switching direction and it allows for a U-Tilt w/out really moving if you like Tap Jump on. However, most Lucarios will still never use Double Team. I'm one of the very few who think that every move in Lucarios repetoire is useful. Even Force Palm Flame. But most of the community disagrees with me. Yet if I happen to find an Advanced Technique for these moves, they'd all leech off of my findings because I'd still probably be kind enough to teach them. I'm sure that many people think I should never use these moves, but the way to find ATs and such is by using the move and doing some crazy tests. I have a few tests in mind, but I won't post them here for the fear other Lucarios will read this and find an AT through my tests. Sure I'd show them, but I don't think it's worth it when they all call you crazy. Oh well, some of the Earth's brightest and most acclaimed people were called crazy for certain theories and were eventually proved right, and they still shared. So I suppose I will too. For Lucarios everywhere.

-Lucario

Honestly, this is just insulting. This whole paragraph is just arrogant, and pretty ignorant. Let me get something straight: the Lucario community is not stupid, like you make it seem. We have tested these things. We know the properties of these attacks (apparently a little better than you). You will not find a useful AT from these things that hasn't already been discovered. If you do, I will eat my shoe. And that's a legitimate promise.

Well, here's a question I have for you, and please be honest: What competitive experience do you have vs. Olimar (legitimate Olimars), and more importantly, what competitive experience do you have at all? Basically, it appears you're basing this all off of theory, and not practice. Which is bad.

 

[|RK|]

Situational doesn't mean bad Phil. Pyro's powers aren't bad, he just can't use them without a lighter. Reread my edited post. I'm just defending it. It kills quickly and reliably, though there has to be a tradeoff. Like, Marth's counter is faster, and stronger if you counter a fully loaded Oil Spill filled up by three Onecario Aura Spheres, but Lucario has set damage and can harm for using minor moves, and kills easily, without need for the attacks that won't be coming at Marth (only in 2v2). As a tradeoff for speed, you have power. But hey, I was a Roy main, what can I say

@Melo:
Why you gotta be so mean ;_;

My friends, a school tournament, and Wi-Fi.

But I don't mean to insult anyone at all. And I'm pretty sure no one else nitpicked like that either... I apologize for any insults that you see, though they certainly weren't intended that way.

 

[Melomaniacal]

@Melo:
Why you gotta be so mean ;_;

My friends, a school tournament, and Wi-Fi.

But I don't mean to insult anyone at all. And I'm pretty sure no one else nitpicked like that either... I apologize for any insults that you see, though they certainly weren't intended that way.

Haha, sorry man. I'm not trying to be mean... just telling you my feelings on this whole thing, haha. You just came off kind of arrogant, and I don't like that kind of thing.

And that isn't legitimate competitive experience, no offense.

Alright, it's all good. I don't mean to be too insulting either, and sorry if I am.

Oh, and just for the record, no one really thinks DT is useless, it's just not that good, and there are almost always better options.

 

[|RK|]

I figure it wasn't lol. It's also so much information that goes around. I'm gonna bump my topic up so that we can all just note our findings. Oh, and I'm gonna create a post matchup discussions topic. By that I mean like after we discuss a matchup on another board, we talk about any ideas that floated around there. Then I can post any fully confirmed ideas in the info topic.

It's okay buddy :D

Lucarios FTW!

 

[Timbers]

Yeah, well, I just want to find some way for it to be competitively useful. After all, about now no person expects us to use it at all. If you know how to use it you can catch them completely off-guard.

im trying to be sensible here and tolerate you, but its getting difficult when you make me repeat myself 3 times in a row.

YOU CANNOT CATCH A PERSON OFF GUARD WHEN THEY HAVE ALMOST TWO SECONDS TO REACT.

It's like saying this person doesn't know how to react to a 100-110 frame move. The only time you will hit with DT is when the game mechanics literally cripple them enough to be helpless, which is very few moves, and the moves that can be punished with DT generally aren't used at all in competitive play due to being so **** laggy.

 

[Browny]

wtf lol almost every move in this game has little enough lag where you can shield after activating a DT. dont pretend like its viable. marth uB can punish almost every move in the game, and unlike DT, you dont have to predict when the opponents going to throw out an attack.

"that is pretty much limited to aerials with enough landing lag"

?????

Ill bet even lucarios landing fair is laggy enough to be punished by DT

 

[|RK|]

Actually, it probably is. Plus if you miss, you always have those minor IASA frames to shield for yourself.

EDIT: Also, you COULD hit them with an Aura Sphere first for some minor hitstun, or make a combo for it so their trapped in hitstun for the slide attack. You don't have to use Double Team alone. It's rather risky. Hmm... F-Air, F-Air, D-Air for the Olimar matchup, but by then, the Pikmin would be gone...

I just keep coming up with brilliant ideas for new threads!

 

[Timbers]

"that is pretty much limited to aerials with enough landing lag"

?????

Ill bet even lucarios landing fair is laggy enough to be punished by DT

Luc fair has plenty of time to shield.

Can you give me like, one example of an aerial that actually will be used in conjunction to it's landing lag? The move would have to have like, the landing lag of Snake's bair or something.

Right now I think you're under the assumption that DKs use their fair as close to the ground as possible and Marths dair onstage.

 

[|RK|]

Okay Timbers, you've made your point. However, if you're both in the air, I think it will hit better. Although I THINK that Double Team has lag when used in the air. I must check this to confirm usefulness/uselessness. But that's what combos are for :D

 

[Timbers]

Pretty sure you cant combo into/out of a move thats as laggy as DT, especially when it requires the opponent to activate

And no I don't think I've made my point if people are still disagreeing. This is such common sense I don't know why people try and push it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Pretty sure you cant combo into/out of a move thats as laggy as DT, especially when it requires the opponent to activate

And no I don't think I've made my point if people are still disagreeing. This is such common sense I don't know why people try and push it.

If you unplug their controller, everything combos!

 

[|RK|]

Hm? Oh, no, I mean like if you've caught an uncooked grenade and combo into it, or have a Pikmin on you.
​

​

 

[The_Bear735]

DT is ****ty if you play a good opponent. It almost never KOs unless you have huge aura/your opponent has bad DI.

 

[Browny]

Luc fair has plenty of time to shield.

Can you give me like, one example of an aerial that actually will be used in conjunction to it's landing lag? The move would have to have like, the landing lag of Snake's bair or something.

Turtle

 

[fromundaman]

Turtle has time to shield (I've actually tried this before). The only moves I can think of making this useful for would be against Ganon's Fair or stomp if he misses the autocancel (though you know, considering how bad you **** Ganon anyway and the fact that Ganon throws neither Pikmin or grenades, that's not very useful...).

 

[Samuelson]

It would of been awesome if Lucario's DT went through Nado or something :D

I think there are lots of smash attacks that can be Double Teamed but those smash attacks are probably not used much at all. Like...I'm pretty sure DT would work on Lucas's Usmash but how often to Lucas's really use that move??

Some Marth's use full hop onstage Dairs as mindgames because it autocancels...pretty sure you can't use DT on that move or maybe you can. I havn't tested it at all lollz

All i know is that DT, overall, is a pretty bad move but Dguy used it when he played and his Lucario was actually pretty **** good.

 

[|RK|]

Silly Sammy.

Bad =/= Situational



​

 

[Samuelson]

DT is soooo situational that it's bad though....

There are like very very few moves that DT would be useful to use. Maybe DDD's Up B when he lands on the stage? Can that be Double Teamed? If it could then that would actually be very useful.

 

[Melomaniacal]

DT is soooo situational that it's bad though....

There are like very very few moves that DT would be useful to use. Maybe DDD's Up B when he lands on the stage? Can that be Double Teamed? If it could then that would actually be very useful.

If the stars activate it, that's not bad at all. I've never actually tried that, I'm sure it'd work.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

DT is soooo situational that it's bad though....

There are like very very few moves that DT would be useful to use. Maybe DDD's Up B when he lands on the stage? Can that be Double Teamed? If it could then that would actually be very useful.

It can. I do this to DDD players who get careless with their recovery sometimes.

 

[Timbers]

Turtle

not turtle, but his fair probably.

DT is soooo situational that it's bad though....

There are like very very few moves that DT would be useful to use. Maybe DDD's Up B when he lands on the stage? Can that be Double Teamed? If it could then that would actually be very useful.

Shielding and dropping shield into a half charged dsmash > DT

 

[Samuelson]

Doesn't DT kill earlier then Dsmash at certain percents?

 

[|RK|]

I'm pretty sure that Down Smash doesn't lead into combos like RDT does.

I think so, Sammy. W/out DI it kills Dedede at 103%

When we're at 169%

So when we're Onecario,

I'm not sure.

​

 

[tedward2000]

What we're saying is Using DT is very risky.
No one's stopping you from using it, but no ones gonna feel sorry if you lose cause of it.

Its extremely risky, and 49/50 theres a much safer alternative.
Some people learn the hard way, thats all.
-t2

*Edit

There are no combos with RDT. Unless your opponent hit you, and during the time of DT's invisible frames, they where hit by a freezie, and froze, they have more then enough time to move, shield or jump.

Use DT or RDT like once every time Hailey's Comet comes around.

 

[Timbers]

Doesn't DT kill earlier then Dsmash at certain percents?

idk exact kill percents, but considering DDD is recovering onstage with uB is indication he's close to the edge of the stage. Horizontal knockback I assume would be superior.

I'm pretty sure that Down Smash doesn't lead into combos like RDT does.

I think so, Sammy. W/out DI it kills Dedede at 103%

When we're at 169%

So when we're Onecario,

I'm not sure.

​

DT doesnt lead into combos god ****ing ****it

 

[|RK|]

Huh, that's what Jeepy's old RDT video said...

It said it can lead into combos.

Reverse Double Team

Not normal Double Team

​

 

[phi1ny3]

Trust me RK, I was in your shoes as one of those ppl who vied for DT to be at least a tourney usable move way back when. I still use RDT to this day vs. Falco, Pit, and zelda projectiles, but as a kill move I don't use it too often. Especially against olimar, since lots of his attacks involving pikmin don't have very much lag (especially his sideB).
I still try to find uses, but it's pretty tricky. If we could somehow find IASA frames on the actual DT attack (not the trigger), then I'd think it would be a little more comboable, but even RDT isn't very comboable, especially against higher tier characters with sound punishments.

 

[|RK|]

Alrighty then Phil.

I understand.

I have some research to do when I get home from school today.

​

 

[|RK|]

I WAS WRONG! THE ONLY USE FOR DOUBLE TEAM IS FOR SUPER DEDEDE JUMP. TIMBUHZ AND JOG AND FROMUNDUMAN WAS ALL RIGHT!!!

(It's the 600th post, a confession. When a boy swallows his pride and truly becomes a man.

Kawaii Bunny, if you shall?