~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Browny]

g&w uair beating lucarios dair is irrelevant. Not all air battles are uair vs dair, fair vs bair. dair can be used to hit opponents on the ground, shocking i know. Zeldas uair beat pretty much everything in the game and KO's at stupidly low %'s, no one considers that her best move. if it blows you up, so what, thats a free full charge aura sphere for you.

I like to annoy G&W users with excessive, and i mean EXCESSIVE roll dodging away from the turtle, (as in NOT behind them) If i predict it early enough, G&W eats a full charge AS since the turtle is quite a laggy attack in terms of how long it takes to complete. If he predicts a roll, theres nothing he can do about it.

and his recovery is good, but thats it. G&W will generally try to sweetspot the edge from below. a dair makes for easy stage spikes, since his upb has no invinciblity. and his parachute it just asking to be bair-ed

another thing people have to take into consideration, sure G&W can KO at around 80-90, but he is very light weight. lucario only has to be at around 80% himself when a smash attack/AS will KO G&W at similar %'s. this isnt like DK, where he can KO at the same %'s, but also doesnt die for another 70 on top of that.

 

[Timbers]

-Everyone's aware that dthrow->dsmash doesn't work. The fact that he can tech chase your roll with a usmash is what makes it so **** scary.

-Trying to bair/dair GaW's recovery is like trying to hit Marth out of his uB. Don't even try it. If you miss you get edgeguarded.

 

[Browny]

--Trying to bair/dair GaW's recovery is like trying to hit Marth out of his uB.

I do it all the time. If you hit, its a KO, if you miss, you take about 7% and marth cant follow it up into a combo or anything. as long as you predict where the parachute will deploy theres a reasonably large time when G&W cant do anything and a properly spaced bair will hit him. Even an AS will do fine. guard the ledge with dair, and discourage over-the-ledge recoveries with AS/bair. considering how annoyingly hard it is to KO G&W, theres very little harm in trying to hit him out of his recovery, just dont jump into a fair.

 

[Timbers]

if he gets on the ledge and you have to recover back onto the stage, I just don't see the point of it with his stupid good aerials ready to **** you if you make the mistake of missing.

 

[Browny]

the idea isnt to jump far out, you just jump a tiny bit over the ledge and dair. the hitbox extends eay beyond the ledgesnap range and is basically a free hit for anyone who tries to grab the ledge from below

 

[Timbers]

How does this work on GaW and not everyone (or mostly everyone) else?

He doesn't necessarily need to snap to the ledge. He can recover high up, as he has no problem dealing with opponents below him.

=\

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

if he gets on the ledge and you have to recover back onto the stage, I just don't see the point of it with his stupid good aerials ready to **** you if you make the mistake of missing.

So you don't think it is a good idea to try and edge guard Game and Watch when they are off the ledge? Isn't that how we as Lucario players supposed to get our kills in when we don't have a big collection of percentages out?

the idea isnt to jump far out, you just jump a tiny bit over the ledge and dair. the hitbox extends eay beyond the ledgesnap range and is basically a free hit for anyone who tries to grab the ledge from below

How does this work on GaW and not everyone (or mostly everyone) else?

It must be that the Hitbox on Game and Watch's Up B is much shorter then the Hitboxs of other character's Up B to that our Down Air's Hitbox will connect with their body before the Hitbox of their Up B will hit with our body.

 

[Timbers]

Gimping a Watch with Luc is near impossible, and his fair protects him from any edgeguard attempt you make. Alongside the fact that he turns the tables very well. He's like Marth in that sense, except his recovery is at least versatile.

I still don't buy that dairing a Watch before he reaches ledgesnap is effective, especially considering how powerful his uB's ledgespike is if it hits you into the stage.

 

[Kitamerby]

-Trying to bair/dair GaW's recovery is like trying to hit Marth out of his uB. Don't even try it. If you miss you get edgeguarded.

Marth's Different. He's safe to do it. GnW has godly priority on his uB

 

[Browny]

How does this work on GaW and not everyone (or mostly everyone) else?

it does work on most people, its just getting them below the stage thats the hard part when most recover over. the difference with G&W is if he recovers over, he is extremely vulnerable for a while as the parachute deploys. i dont think its possible to gimp G&W, but not even trying to edgeguard him is plain stupid. he can be hit out of his upb, so you should go for it every chance you get. If G&W messes up his spacing, get gets a dair or AS. if lucario messes up his spacing, you just jump back on the ledge or take like 4% from his recovery damage, he cant pull out a fair the instant he uses upb or anything.

also slightly off topic, for anyone who thinks marths recovery is even close to decent, watch this

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9RgOuPDrcnY

all it takes is a smart player to prove how bad it really is

 

[Timbers]

Are you implying that Luc can stay above stage level and still dair GaW before he reaches the ledgesnap? Because he can't. And if Luc even barely goes beneath the stage level, he has a high chance of getting stagespiked. And yes, I think you should stay on stage against GaW. His fair outranges probably everything you have (haven't tested bair, but if his fair has the same range or greater than his bair, then it outranges your own bair) and deals like 16%. uB's trampoline/parachute ledgespike you very easily.

GaW's recovery is like, the least punishable thing in the game. I mean really, how many people can recover onto the stage on not be in danger. Snake has a terrible air game, Wario lacks the range necessary to defend himself, ROB has a gaping blindspot beneath him. GaW takes the cake in "safe on-stage recovery" I think.

Vulnerable recoveries I think goes to Falcon, Ganondorf, Spacies, Snake, ROB, etc etc. GaW's is by no means easily punishable.


Everyone knows that Marth's uB is mediocre for recovery, but actually hitting him out of the uB is very difficult.

Also a bad example. That Marth didn't use any DB stalls what-so-ever.

 

[Browny]

well ive managed to dair G&W upb, full charge wario waft, marth upb, CF upb (it has godly priority) from above, so idk

and my point remains about him being unable to attack after using his parachute. there has to be at least half a second while hes floating when he cant do anything, and of course AS will hit him as hes flying upwards as well

i think we should reinforce what OBM said too

"roll spam sucks, big time"

roll spamming lucarios are annoying as hell to deal with. Almost as much as the turtle. so spam it to no end. he doesnt have the tornado, snakedash or a fast dash attack to punish it. and of course i mean roll AWAY from g&W...

 

[Timbers]

I think Milln explained this the best. The only time you're going to dair a GaW out of his uB is if you hit him at the peak of the uB.

Which is like never going to happen with gay auto-sweetspots.

I still think it's best to stay on stage. If its the one thing you have on GaW is that he's lightweight. Stay on the stage and get a legitimate kill on him. Don't go and **** it up and get yourself killed lol.


Roll spamming sucks for GaW I guess, but I don't see how it does anything besides prolong the match. There's nothing we can do from a distance anyways, besides frustrate the GaW and arguably yourself.

 

[Browny]

have you played against a good diddy? frustrating the hell out of your opponent is a great tactic. if G&W cant land his all-powerful approach, and risks getting a full charge AS if lucario predicts it (seriously is a full chrage AS the best punisher for a whiffed turtle or what? i cant think of anything safer that does more damage), thats bound to make a G&W user change thier approach.

 

[Timbers]

FCAS is good if he whiffs his aerials.


Also there's like, no way you can seriously compare Diddy to GaW. Diddy NEEDS the bananas to approach. He can't space worth a hoot so he needs the naners to create opportunities. GaW doesn't need to make openings.

That's the difference.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Lucario probably has a harder time approaching G&W than the other way around... just saying :/

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Mmmm...while it is true that the only three moves that we have that can outspace G&W is fsmash and aura sphere/usmash, then you need to space all the with those moves. Plus it's not like the entire match your opponent will make you use only the first two of those moves. You can still look for opportunities and use other techniques.

You don't even need to wait for him to whiff the back air either, you can just launch it straight at him and it'll eat it. However with his other aerials, yes wait. But seriously, how often does he use his other aerials? That is, if you maintain a safe distance.

I would agree with staying on-stage. That's definitely the best idea. And G&W is a light character, so please abuse it. Kill him as fast as possible. They don't use their match very often, and the dsmash can't kill until at least 100+%, but you shouldn't really get hit with that move. And the up smash? They can't tech chase you fast enough to get one off if you tech the dthrow. But other than that, that's probably the only time they'll be using such a horribly laggy move to try and kill you with. Just stay away from his fsmash, which has a decent amount of start up lag so you should be able to see it coming.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

have you played against a good diddy? frustrating the hell out of your opponent is a great tactic. if G&W cant land his all-powerful approach, and risks getting a full charge AS if lucario predicts it (seriously is a full chrage AS the best punisher for a whiffed turtle or what? i cant think of anything safer that does more damage), thats bound to make a G&W user change thier approach.

FCAS is good if he whiffs his aerials.


Also there's like, no way you can seriously compare Diddy to GaW. Diddy NEEDS the bananas to approach. He can't space worth a hoot so he needs the naners to create opportunities. GaW doesn't need to make openings.

That's the difference.

He isn't comparing those two... he is using Diddy Kong as an example on why annoying your opponent would be a viable strategy.... lol reading

On the Gimping topic....

You can always Tech the stage if you miss the Down Air and are going to be stage spiked, yeah it isn't easy... but it is do-able, thats kind of like saying ... man I can't wave dash melee, I shouldn't practice it and just try and play competitively a different way.

 

[emoklops]

You can always Tech the stage if you miss the Down Air and are going to be stage spiked, yeah it isn't easy... but it is do-able, thats kind of like saying ....

Sure you can. But why should someone get into this extremely dangerous Situation, when it is nearly impossible to hit G&W? The risk is not worth the reward, as hitting is way too hard.
And even in the case you tech: What's next? You're in a deadly position as you're the one who has to recover and G&W will take advantage of it and you're supposed to die. Same result as if you would have got stage spiked...

 

[Trapt497]

Lucario probably has a harder time approaching G&W than the other way around... just saying :/

Definetly. BAS is critical to Lucario's approach game and G&W's bucket simply discourages that completely. Unless, like me, your friend who mains G&W doesn't use the bucket. Then it'd be a bit better for Lucario, but all in all G&W's appraoch game is very good.

G&W > Lucario. Unfortunetly so.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Sure you can. But why should someone get into this extremely dangerous Situation, when it is nearly impossible to hit G&W? The risk is not worth the reward, as hitting is way too hard.

If you win he gets stage spiked, if you lose you get hit and take some damage and get stronger... how is that a risk not worth taking?

And even in the case you tech: What's next? You're in a deadly position as you're the one who has to recover and G&W will take advantage of it and you're supposed to die. Same result as if you would have got stage spiked...

Game and Watch doesn't have any spikes so how is that a bad situation, by time he has to drop down an attack you, you can already be coming back to the stage by either grabbing the ledge or Extreme Speeding around it and onto the stage.

That and if you do this application properly you can space it so that if you get hit you don't go towards the stage you go away so there is no risk of getting stage spiked... not to mention you will still have another jump so getting back just in case the worst happens shouldn't be that hard.

 

[Timbers]

You can always Tech the stage if you miss the Down Air and are going to be stage spiked, yeah it isn't easy... but it is do-able, thats kind of like saying ... man I can't wave dash melee, I shouldn't practice it and just try and play competitively a different way.

If you win he gets stage spiked, if you lose you get hit and take some damage and get stronger... how is that a risk not worth taking?

So...if you knock GaW into the stage, it's going to kill him.

But if he knocks you into the stage, you're going to be able to tech it every time?

hahahahahahahaha.

No.

 

[dguy6789]

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing OneWingedAngelo1.

 

[Timbers]

I had this eloquent **** I wrote and then the proxy killed me.

But I'll rewrite it.

Okay. On the note of teching a stagespike. You have 20 frames to tech, or ~333ms. That's the largest window. Depending how close you are to the stage, that gap can close to 10 frames. The average reaction speed of a person is ~250ms, or 15 frames (as Brawl runs on 60fps) Or basically, you have 5 frames at most to react. Some reaction speeds can be as slow as 340-370ms. That's OVER the 20 frame window, meaning it'd be IMPOSSIBLE for them to react within 20 frames.

Now of course if you're somewhat away from the stage when getting knocked into it, you could have 30-35 frames or so to react. But you're saying to dair them right next to the ledgesnap, which is pretty **** close.

Azen had said his reaction time was 330ms I believe. Go tell Azen no johns cause this is easy with practice, just like wavedashing!

Yeah cause you know, you actually knew what you were going to do before you did it with wavedashing.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Whoa, relax Timbers! OWA is doing his best to respond more nicely than he has in the past, so don't treat it with such disrespect. His opinion on the matter is actually being expressed very similarly to how you express your own sometimes, but you're more respected so you don't get yelled at. Have some patience. Just calm down.

I will say this only once: WE ARE GETTING OFF TOPIC. THIS IS ABOUT G&W, NOT TECHING THE STAGE. That may have been how it started, but now we're talking about frame data and all sorts of other nonsense that pertains to G&W in absolutely no way.

And please don't reprimand me anyone, just relax and don't start the flame war BS. I've been on these boards WAY longer than any of you in this thread, so respect that too. I'm pretty sure you all know I don't suck at this game or Melee either.

 

[Timbers]

I don't have any respect for owa, but for the sake of this thread I cleaned up my posts.

Erich my original account here was created Oct '05, just sayin.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Thanks mate.

Hmmm, you do seem to be more intelligent than people who have recently joined, so I can believe that. Anyways...moving on.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

GaWs on GaW vs. Lucario

OmegaBlackMage wrote:

roll spam sucks, big time. If you approach too much with the turtle, they will probably punish with a spaced fsmash or roll to jab etc. If you approach w/ nairs overhead, they can probably utilt as thats really fast. Also the upsmash beats the key. On paper, lucario has a lot of crap to work around, but they can be extremely annoying. Getting buckets will help alot, as there is no good upsmash of lucario's to punish you hard for it. If they are really close they could fsmash, but i just wouldn't absorb something thaaat close. So basically forcing them to approach you is the best bet.

As gw, avoid frigate orpheon, as lucario, avoid rainbow cruise.

Hmm... I wonder why he said that..."I" wouldn't know a thing about that.

I had this eloquent **** I wrote and then the proxy killed me.

But I'll rewrite it.

Okay. On the note of teching a stagespike. You have 20 frames to tech, or ~333ms. That's the largest window. Depending how close you are to the stage, that gap can close to 10 frames. The average reaction speed of a person is ~250ms, or 15 frames (as Brawl runs on 60fps) Or basically, you have 5 frames at most to react. Some reaction speeds can be as slow as 340-370ms. That's OVER the 20 frame window, meaning it'd be IMPOSSIBLE for them to react within 20 frames.

Now of course if you're somewhat away from the stage when getting knocked into it, you could have 30-35 frames or so to react. But you're saying to dair them right next to the ledgesnap, which is pretty **** close.

Just curious from what you wrote you are saying that.... you have the time needed to react to teching... but some times you don't...

Also I will say this once again... because it seems you still have trouble reading what people write...

If you do the set up for the gimping properly Game and Watch will only hit you and not stage spike you because when he hits you, you are too far away from the stage and get hit in the wrong direction to be spiked by the stage.....

I don't have any respect for owa, but for the sake of this thread I cleaned up my posts.

Erich my original account here was created Oct '05, just sayin.

Didn't you create a private thread for us to vent our aggression between us? Why aren't you just posting remarks like that there?

Also... thats the same date my old account was created too... what a strange coincident that we both have older "Other" account that predates other members who joined around the same time we did.

 

[Timbers]

Hmm... I wonder why he said that..."I" wouldn't know a thing about that.

I'd imagine it's because GaW can't capitalize on rolls as well as other characters, not because it makes his approach difficult.

Just curious from what you wrote you are saying that.... you have the time needed to react to teching... but some times you don't...

Also I will say this once again... because it seems you still have trouble reading what people write...

If you do the set up for the gimping properly Game and Watch will only hit you and not stage spike you because when he hits you, you are too far away from the stage and get hit in the wrong direction to be spiked by the stage.....

Your logic makes no sense on the teching deal so I'm going to drop it.

Didn't you create a private thread for us to vent our aggression between us? Why aren't you just posting remarks like that there?

You've crossed the line with that "private business" stuff.

Also... thats the same date my old account was created too... what a strange coincident that we both have older "Other" account that predates other members who joined around the same time we did.

It's apparently against Smashboards ToS to tell idiots they're idiots, most notably if they're SBR.

Also "predates"?

October comes after September. Learn your calenders.

 

[Conclusively]

Seriously, first time I've seen Lucario mains fighting with other Lucario mains in Lucario boards.

 

[Pentaoku]

Seriously, first time I've seen Lucario mains fighting with other Lucario mains in Lucario boards.

Haha, those two have been at it since the Mario discussions. I'm starting to think they're faking it just to put on a show. What a laugh that would be huh? In the end the two were just joking around to fool us all?

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Can we stop talking about the teching? Any more continuation of this subject would just give you the appearance of being a douchebag and it isn't exactly a super important play strategy that we're talking about. >.>

 

[da K.I.D.]

Also "predates"?

October comes after September. Learn your calenders.

and supposedly 2005 comes after 2008

Seriously, first time I've seen Lucario mains fighting with other Lucario mains in Lucario boards.

ehh....

Haha, those two have been at it since the Mario discussions. I'm starting to think they're faking it just to put on a show. What a laugh that would be huh? In the end the two were just joking around to fool us all?

OWA is sipping down a cool martini right now. You have no idea.

teching isn't exactly a super important play strategy

lolololololololololololololololollolololol

 

[Timbers]

and supposedly 2005 comes after 2008

Believe it or not, we're never going to enter the year 2005 again.

I know I'm sad too.

 

[dguy6789]

OneWingedAngelo1: Being wrong about everything all the time.

But seriously dude, you don't know half as much as you think you do. Stop arguing stuff that doesn't make sense just because you want to have the last word, it's ********.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

OWA is sipping down a cool martini right now. You have no idea.

Are you sure he wasn't yelling in your face while you were typing? XD

 

[Browny]

eh this match up discussion is annoying. everyone knows what G&W can do, he (turtle) ***** the entire cast, disadvantage

next character imo

oh and im going to reinforce this

"another thing people have to take into consideration, sure G&W can KO at around 80-90, but he is very light weight. lucario only has to be at around 80% himself when a smash attack/AS will KO G&W at similar %'s. this isnt like DK, where he can KO at the same %'s, but also doesnt die for another 70 on top of that."

lucarios usmash is a decent KO move here. way too many people disregard this attack as a ko move and assume lucario has no vertical killers, its got near 90* knockback and hits just as hard as any of his other smashes. of course running in and using it wont work, but if a G&W doesnt tech a landing onto a platform on BF/lylat or attempts to Dair through it, it does just fine.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

owa is a pretty cool guy. eh knows lots and doesnt afraid of anything.

but seriously, next rotation? We all agree it being at best 60:40 G and imo is 70:30

edit: oops i said luc had the advantage

 

[Jeepy Sol]

---

Sorry I haven't been updating as frequently. I'll try to finish up with G&W tomorrow. I've been extremely busy lately.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

*Picture*

Sorry I haven't been updating as frequently. I'll try to finish up with G&W tomorrow. I've been extremely busy lately.

Busy switching over to Wario!... You abandoned us!

I had this eloquent **** I wrote and then the proxy killed me.

But I'll rewrite it.

Okay. On the note of teching a stagespike. You have 20 frames to tech, or ~333ms. That's the largest window. Depending how close you are to the stage, that gap can close to 10 frames. The average reaction speed of a person is ~250ms, or 15 frames (as Brawl runs on 60fps) Or basically, you have 5 frames at most to react. Some reaction speeds can be as slow as 340-370ms. That's OVER the 20 frame window, meaning it'd be IMPOSSIBLE for them to react within 20 frames.

Now of course if you're somewhat away from the stage when getting knocked into it, you could have 30-35 frames or so to react. But you're saying to dair them right next to the ledgesnap, which is pretty **** close.

Azen had said his reaction time was 330ms I believe. Go tell Azen no johns cause this is easy with practice, just like wavedashing!

Yeah cause you know, you actually knew what you were going to do before you did it with wavedashing.

When did this info get released for Brawl... it does though look like the info from Melee... which is a completely different game from what I heard.

OneWingedAngelo1: Being wrong about everything all the time.

But seriously dude, you don't know half as much as you think you do. Stop arguing stuff that doesn't make sense just because you want to have the last word, it's ********.

Huh?

owa is a pretty cool guy. eh knows lots and doesnt afraid of anything.

but seriously, next rotation? We all agree it being at best 60:40 luc and imo is 70:30

I think you meant 60:40 Game and Watch... and... do I know you? I know that may sound odd... but I feel like if someone is willing to defend me when the majority of people aren't I should know who that person is...that kind of person seems like a cool guy.