~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Browny]

Lucas PKT2 goes through your shield. Ness just hits your shield and drops like a rock.

No it doesnt, it just slows it down as it passes through. And people, you cant discount PKT2 as a viable kill move when so many people here put a lot of emphasis on luigis upb.

Whether or not it will/wont hit its an important part of this match up and it is always a threat. Remember these matchup discussions arent only for perfect players with inhuman reflexes, not everyone who plays lucario/reads this guide is quick enough to avoid a well mindgamed PKT2 attack

 

[Timbers]

No it doesnt, it just slows it down as it passes through. And people, you cant discount PKT2 as a viable kill move when so many people here put a lot of emphasis on luigis upb.

Whether or not it will/wont hit its an important part of this match up and it is always a threat. Remember these matchup discussions arent only for perfect players with inhuman reflexes, not everyone who plays lucario/reads this guide is quick enough to avoid a well mindgamed PKT2 attack

No it won't. It'll just push on your shield. He doesn't go through it.

It does eat a helluva lot of shield though, so be prepared if your shield isn't up to take the beating.

We're not talking about Lucas here. Go test it.


If people were really that concerned with Luigi's uppercut, I think we would have made him more than neutral. It's just a little annoyance. You probably have a better chance of being gimped/spiked by a character than getting uppercutted.

Same goes for Ness. His spike kills at stupid low percents. I'd be more worried about that than I would PKT2.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Don't I?

lolno

Umbreon Mow, Angry Lobster, ThaBettaPlaya, all on or around your level in Melee with Ness.

Wow you must be joking...those players dont have near the same tournament record as i do with ness, so i have to assume you factored my skill to theirs using videos....and if thats the case i just have to assume u arent any good at melee

Care to give a couple situations where the move is reliable? I have yet to hear one. All you do is talk about how numerous they are without giving examples. BS on PKT2 being easier to land than Ike fsmash.

Here is an EASY one: anytime you could tailwhip your opponent and hit yourself wiht pk thunder at the same time is an extrmely reliable time to use it.

Where do you get these kinds of made up statistics?

that's a really dumb question.....also i kinda already answered it....i factored in the difficulty of hitting each different opponent with pkt2 as well as the popularitiesof each of the cahracters and then i explained how the number can vary in different regions where popularity is different

If you're asking whether any of it is based on my own experience then the answer is OF COURSE....and yes i am playing good opponents

You have this better than thou attitude when you are nothing special in either game as far as the big picture is concerned. Posting the most or yelling the loudest that "I am the best Ness" does not make it so. All you do is over rate yourself and over rate Ness. You must be pretty **** good, I mean Ness is 31st in tournament standings out of all the characters currently, so you must be placing pretty well. Go back to the Ness boards where everything is magical and happy because Ness has the advantage in pretty much every matchup. We're trying to have a real discussion here.

lol@ big picture! If by big picture you mean i dont win major tournaments then you are clearly not thinking straight. I am famed for using low tier character in melee(yes i said famed, and its true no matter how much u disagree)...there is pretty much no way im going to place higher in a tournament than the likes of Ken, PC Chris, M2K, KDJ, DSF, Chu Dat, CORT, Vidjo, or Azen....I guess that makes me "not that good" in the big picture...lol.

Also for your information, other ppl have claimed that i am the best ness MUCH MUCH MUCH more than i have (altho i do lay claim to that) and they have done it a good deal before i ever started claiming it myself. Oh and im talking about Melee btw.....there really isnt a popular opinion on who is even close to being the best Ness in brawl. And wow @ the "tournament standings" ...u realize that the less a character is used in tournaments the more they will move down the standings right? You also realize that the more a character moves up the standings the more likely they are to be used more right? Its hugely and OBVIOUSLY flawed....i cant believe u even brought it up.

Oh and i dont really care what kind of attitude u think i come off with...i generally try to make everyone happy with me, but if you wanna take things like telling ppl they are wrong as elitist or arrogant then i guess i cant stop you.....but like i said i dont really care

If you like i could rattle off tons of major accomplishments i made during melee time that no other nesses can claim, but i think that would make you mad, so i wont^_^

One more cool thing, if you reply in this thread to this line of discussion then you will receive major infractions and your post will be edited. Enjoy your real discussion.



oh....i almost forgot: Timber....I am dead serious

 

[dguy6789]

Luigi's up b is NOTHING like PKT2. Luigi's up b is a free hit if he lands one jab on you. That isn't exactly hard to do.

Well mindgamed pkt2 attack = Ness uses pk thunder, spins it around and hits it into ness, pushing ness in your direction?

 

[Timbers]

oh....i almost forgot: Timber....I am dead serious

I'm still not buying it. I've never heard Ness described ever as "well he has a reliable killmove that sends you to the blastzone at 40-60%."

You said that Ness should be trying to land this move when a character is in the air, most probable when they're returning to the stage? How effective does this become when a character's recovering to the ledge/edge of the stage and Ness is on the innerpart of the stage?

It'd certainly put him in a risky situation if he does whiff and is now on the edge of the stage in a fall special of some sort. If he hasn't just SD'd, it gives his opponent an easy smash against him on the edge.

It sounds very sketchy. Are there any videos of tournament scene Ness' taking stocks roughly 25% of the time using PKT2? Because I haven't seen or heard of anything like this before.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

not so much when they are recovering as much as when they are just in the air above the stage


im afraid i cant point u to any videos......i dont really follow any videos anymore myself so i couldnt tell u if there were any

 

[dguy6789]

Wow you must be joking...those players dont have near the same tournament record as i do with ness, so i have to assume you factored my skill to theirs using videos....and if thats the case i just have to assume u arent any good at melee

What exactly is your tournament record? These guys have consistently placed high but not won, and they hold their own against very talented players. Pretty much exactly the same as you yes?

Here is an EASY one: anytime you could tailwhip your opponent and hit yourself wiht pk thunder at the same time is an extrmely reliable time to use it.

How often does that happen?

that's a really dumb question.....also i kinda already answered it....i factored in the difficulty of hitting each different opponent with pkt2 as well as the popularitiesof each of the cahracters and then i explained how the number can vary in different regions where popularity is different

If you're asking whether any of it is based on my own experience then the answer is OF COURSE....and yes i am playing good opponents

I still can't bring myself to fathom how a skilled player could regularly be hit by a pkt2.

lol@ big picture! If by big picture you mean i dont win major tournaments then you are clearly not thinking straight. I am famed for using low tier character in melee(yes i said famed, and its true no matter how much u disagree)...there is pretty much no way im going to place higher in a tournament than the likes of Ken, PC Chris, M2K, KDJ, DSF, Chu Dat, CORT, Vidjo, or Azen....I guess that makes me "not that good" in the big picture...lol.

Precisely. You do well(And by well, I mean you don't get last place, but you don't win) with a low tier character, of which there are tons of people just like you that do the same. You're merely the loudest. Call yourself good when you win tournaments with Ness on a regular basis. Being the best of a low tier is nothing to be proud of if you still don't win.

Also for your information, other ppl have claimed that i am the best ness MUCH MUCH MUCH more than i have (altho i do lay claim to that) and they have done it a good deal before i ever started claiming it myself.

Others call you the best Ness because you are good, you have the most videos, and you post the most. That's all. There are still other players who perform just as well vs skilled players. They just aren't as outspoken.

Oh and i dont really care what kind of attitude u think i come off with...i generally try to make everyone happy with me, but if you wanna take things like telling ppl they are wrong as elitist or arrogant then i guess i cant stop you.....but like i said i dont really care

There's nothing wrong with telling people they are wrong if you are in fact right.

If you like i could rattle off tons of major accomplishments i made during melee time that no other nesses can claim, but i think that would make you mad, so i wont^_^

I'm aware you have done your share of nice things in Melee, but you are most certainly not the only Ness who has placed well or held his own against high level players.

One more cool thing, if you reply in this thread to this line of discussion then you will receive major infractions and your post will be edited. Enjoy your real discussion.

You're going to give me an infraction because I'm willing to disagree with you publicly? Sounds like an abuse of moderator powers to me. What happened to it being okay to tell someone they are wrong?

 

[Timbers]

not so much when they are recovering as much as when they are just in the air above the stage

I admittedly can't believe it happening that often. Seeing is believing I guess, and I've yet to see any Ness do that to a competent player.

I can't exactly discredit your claim though, as I have no proof to what I'm arguing, and it'd be weird to tell a Ness main that they're wrong about Ness without being able to back it up.

But yeah.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

sounds like you are off topic to me

EDIT: timber i cant really show you right now, but maybe i can paint a picture

pkt2 moves very very fast (after the pkt hits ness, he moves thru the air very very fast), if the opponent gets caught in the tail its over(so they will most definitely be avoiding that area)...pk thunder moves very fast in brawl and the direction pkt2 moves depends not on the direction pkt is moving but rather on the point of impact in Ness' body

this means that in a matter of a split second ness can change what would be a pkt2 upwards at a 20 degree angle to a pkt2 upwards at a 50 degree angle and the opponent has to GUESS which one to airdodge....(and im just giving two aims as an example....ness can pkt2 at MANY angles that have only a split second difference in timing on aim and can also be changed at the last split second). If they aridodge the wrong one the hit is guaranteed and because the pkt2 itself moves so fast they can airdodge as a reaction to seeing which way it was aimed. On top of that, if the opponent does make a successful evade on it they are in no position the punish him for missing, so the whole situation turns into the same situation as any character coming down to the stage from above vs. any other character jumping up to attack them with an aerial....except PKT2 kills much earlier than any aerial

and thats not even taking into account the speed and range changes to pkt2 that are created by having or not having platforms


seriously the difference in timing between ness PKT2ing STRAIGHT UP vs. ness PKT2ing completely horizontally is less than half of a second.....and less for every angle inbetween...so if u airdodge at the wrong time you will eat it....and if u air dodge at the right time its not much of a problem

the biggest vulnerable spot on PKT2 is when the opponent shields it at which time they can attack u OOS

 

[Browny]

lolbanned

i do believe this matchup discussion has been done to death

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Oh, THAT'S real mature.

 

[Pentaoku]

...Banned? Yeesh, I don't really agree with that kind of punishment.

PKT2 has hit me several times from one player, but that was the first time I ever played against a Ness who even used PKT2 outside of recovery. Once I realized that I really should not be trying to hit Ness before he hits me and that I could just shield the darn thing then punish, I rarely have been hit by it outside of Free for All games, which don't really count to this discussion. Though double teaming the PKT2 doesn't seem all that great IMO.

Actually hitting someone with the tail on purpose is hard enough, and for them to be close enough to hit with the tail near the start up of PK Thunder, you kinda have to wonder what they're doing. I can only imagine the situation working if they are standing there doing nothing or if they dashed in way too close by accident...

But that's just my opinion.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

****, guys, ROB is next week. Don't say Lucario beats him or Overswarm will ban us.

 

[Samuelson]

I still can't bring myself to fathom how a skilled player could regularly be hit by a pkt2.

This is off topic?!

You probably shouldn't ban somebody for voicing themselves. You're acting like one of the Cops at Kent State that had a power trip and shot at a group of peaceful protesters.

Anyways nobody should argue with Simna anymore...He means serious business.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

i edited my above post for timber....


and also really i was well within the rules to ban dguy.....its just that most mods give users more breathing room on the rules.....and lol i even gave him a warning


BUT SERIOUSLY...no more discussion on that^


EDIT: samuelson...if u cant see how he was breaking the rules then u need to read the rules

 

[Azen Zagenite]

=^_^=

Corrupt! Let's all agree with him before we're all banned! PKT2 > all

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Oh, uh.... I get KOed by PKT2 every time I play a Ness, guys, it's too good.

 

[Samuelson]

Oh, uh.... I get KOed by PKT2 every time I play a Ness, guys, it's too good.

I get 3 stocked everytime I play Ness because of his legendary PKT2. I might go as far as saying that it is the best kill move in the game. Even better than Rollout!!!

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

u guys realize that me giving infractions has nothing to do with what you think of any character in any game or their moves

EDIT: but i can give infractions for trolling, flaming, posts that are too short(yes), spam, all kinds of stuff.....stuff similar to the above posts

 

[indianunit]

Just don't approach into an incoming PKT2 and you'll be fine. Lol cause when ever I do I'm screwed

 

[Alus]

Offtopic i guess, sorry. Im just wondering, is no one using lucarios double team attack. Because that's the main reason why lucario is my seccond main at the moment.

i almost forgot that lucario had double team....

u guys realize that me giving infractions has nothing to do with what you think of any character in any game or their moves

EDIT: but i can give infractions for trolling, flaming, posts that are too short(yes), spam, all kinds of stuff.....stuff similar to the above posts

what in the earlier posts were worth giving a infraction for??? =/

yes Dguys post was one line but it had substance....

 

[Nurotasama]

u guys realize that me giving infractions has nothing to do with what you think of any character in any game or their moves

EDIT: but i can give infractions for trolling, flaming, posts that are too short(yes), spam, all kinds of stuff.....stuff similar to the above posts

Welcome to the Lucario boards. You OBVIOUSLY haven't been here long to understand how we work, then.

 

[indianunit]

Welcome to the Lucario boards. You OBVIOUSLY haven't been here long to understand how we work, then.

lol agreed

 

[Alus]

also i love how on the little graph in the first post Ness' half-face is connected

with ROB's half-face......so fitting imo^_^

cause then he would have to change the moral at the end of the video

wow that match is like 6 years old....its pretty meaningless

tell me how mario can gimp ness and i'll tell u why its ineffective and overall why

the actual amount he CAN gimp Ness isnt that much at all

...oh god O_O

interesting info part2: Did you know that Peach cannot B-counter Ness' fsmash?

^this shows that your not so diffrent and the reason that you have for giving infractions so far has been a terrible
excuse...

 

[Nurotasama]

Now we're off topic. Nice. Great job acting as a moderator to... ya know... keep these important threads on topic yourself.

/forcefacepalm

 

[Browny]

lol this reminds of me console fanboy wars back in school, full of amazingly exaggerated claims and all

 

[indianunit]

Hey can I say one thing? I know I'll probably be heavily criticized for saying this but.... shouldn't we go through the characters that show up heavily in tournaments first so when we do vs them in the tourneys we'll be ready for them? It just seems that going through the matchups in order of the Brawl game list will get us nowhere. Since right now the only character we might be seeing in a tournament is G&W and maybe Marth, can we do maybe Snake or Metaknight next?

 

[Alus]

^ i agree with indian

but we have to be ready for the scarce too.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Hey can I say one thing? I know I'll probably be heavily criticized for saying this but.... shouldn't we go through the characters that show up heavily in tournaments first so when we do vs them in the tourneys we'll be ready for them? It just seems that going through the matchups in order of the Brawl game list will get us nowhere. Since right now the only character we might be seeing in a tournament is G&W and maybe Marth, can we do maybe Snake or Metaknight next?

I believe this has come up several times, the "main" people here don't seem to care about tournies in the sense of helping people do better in them due to this kind of info because they feel that if you need this kind of help... you aren't going to do good in them anyways. (Just reiterating what has been said on this topic)

Welcome to the Lucario boards. You OBVIOUSLY haven't been here long to understand how we work, then.

What are you trying to say about this... he should ban our entire Forum section? Why do people give Mods a reason to get themselves ban.

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But all that Jazz about PK Thunder 2, I agree with Simna.

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@Timbers: Please go Test shielding PK Thunder 2, and when I say Test I don't mean find an example that fits your claim... Test out multiple scenarios. When someone shields PK Thunder 2 the distance that Ness travels in is significantly shortened this is true... BUT it doesn't stop Ness and will allow him to travel through a shielding opponent.

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Slightly off topic (sort of) note: Good strategy for Ness in teams is to PK Thunder 2 into a ready Teammate so that he would hit an opponent on the other side of him. Ways you could "combo" this with Lucario is just to have Lucario Double Team the expected PK Thunder 2 and have the Lucario player make Lucario come out of the Double Team behind Ness to reduce the chance of your opponent punishing Ness's PK Thunder 2

 

[Kappie]

I agree with doing Meta Knight and Snake and possibly Falco next. Beside them being high tier and all, those matchups aren't very easy to judge.

 

[Alus]

edit:say nothing never mind...

 

[PKNintendo]

Sweet, Simna owned that dude.

 

[indianunit]

I believe this has come up several times, the "main" people here don't seem to care about tournies in the sense of helping people do better in them due to this kind of info because they feel that if you need this kind of help... you aren't going to do good in them anyways. (Just reiterating what has been said on this topic)

I disagree completely. Tournament wise I feel myself to be of decent standard but that doesn't mean I don't wanna know any advantages, disadvantages, or counterpick stages that pertain to Lucario's adversaries. But I understand it's not you, still these "main" people you speak of should be taught a lesson.

By coming over and kicking all their posteriors.

 

[Timbers]

@Timbers: Please go Test shielding PK Thunder 2, and when I say Test I don't mean find an example that fits your claim... Test out multiple scenarios. When someone shields PK Thunder 2 the distance that Ness travels in is significantly shortened this is true... BUT it doesn't stop Ness and will allow him to travel through a shielding opponent.

If I do this will you promise to stop posting without having tried these claims yourself? And stop acting like the man is keeping you down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLmunhO2waU


On the matchups, I had split the matchup chart so that we could split up the tournament-scene characters with the not-so. Obviously this was two months ago and things have changed now, but I personally think it's going in a fine order. I mean, ROB's up next. You're crazy if you haven't seen a decent amount of ROBs at tournaments. Snake and MK are shortly after that.

Same with Falco.

Biggest reason I have my opinion on this is that, if anything, it gives characters who are rapidly accelerating in their metagames (Metaknight, lol) time to flesh it out some more, so we can have a more fully in-depth talk about what a character's capability is.

Ultimately it's up to Jeepy though, but it's just my stand on it.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLmunhO2waU

Maybe I was tripping shrooms but I am pretty sure I have seen Ness's head poke through the other side of Lucario

The point I was trying to say is that he could hit someone on the other side of the shielded opponent. I realize that I might not of typed enough to explain that. (thought my teams example was stating my point enough)

 

[Ref]

PKT2 can pass the shielding person... You just need to be closer... If for what ever reason you say PKT hits the other person put their shield up before you try closer.

If no to that too. Try surface to air missile. To do it hit Ness' foot only so he will pop up into the air when PKT2'ing. Just to put it out there

 

[Alus]

question...why is captian falcon even in this?

he cant take advantage over anyone...

 

[Samuelson]

Sweet, Simna owned that dude.

All Simna do was abuse his Mod powers out of frustration, i wouldn't exactly call that ownage. It's like arguing with a cop...who the **** do you think is going to get their way in the end?

 

[Timbers]

If no to that too. Try surface to air missile. To do it hit Ness' foot only so he will pop up into the air when PKT2'ing. Just to put it out there

This is the only scenario that will work where it goes through the shield. If Ness is on the ground, or is in the air aimed towards the ground, he'll drop like a rock right in front of your shield.

It is a very dumb idea to prop Ness into the air with the already-tremendous lag of rocket I'd imagine when using it against a grounded opponent though..lol. Plus he goes through your shield but still falls within range of a Lucario dsmash, only on the opposite side of him.

It's just a ton easier to punish. I mean. The afterlag, AND a fall special? Hurray for whoever shields that.

 

[Ref]

Actually it might be a wiser choice. There is such thing as PKT2 lag cancel. Ness will land and be able to shield properly. He'll get no landing lag or special lag. Only lag is the air time before you land. In this air time you can try to move around to fool your opponent. It is also very very possible to shield stab off the top of the shield. It's not a bad choice really... It will also lessen the horizontal distance you will go meaning no more going off the edge if the spot dodge....