Lucario Matchup Discussion: vs. Wario

[Steam]

Lucario Matchup Discussion: vs. Wario

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Welcome to the Lucario vs. Wario matchup thread/export. As you might have guessed this thread is for discussing the ins and outs of the Lucario vs. Wario matchup and who wins/loses. As always please keep discussion on topic and civil. Refer to this thread for all other matchups.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

In my experience as a long time Wario main, the Lucario matchup is actually a matchup I consider quite even.

IN LUCARIO'S FAVOR:

• At lower percents, Lucario can still juggle Wario quite well with fair. Uthrow can set up juggles. He can also knock Wario off the bike pretty well. This is how you want to start building damage.
• Wario struggles killing until around 130%, Lucario can get some silly early-percent kills because of this.
  
• When at high aura, Aura Sphere can 1 shot the bike.
• Lucario's aerials can beat out a few of Wario's.

IN WARIO'S FAVOR:

• Wario destroys Lucario when he is at low aura, due to how slow and short-ranged a lot of his moves are.
• At higher percent, Wario can camp Lucario out if he has a lead since it is basically free waft for him. Lucario can try catching him with fairs and aura sphere, though.
• Wario DOES HAVE numerous kill options on Lucario around 130%, ftilt in particular is nasty.
• Wario can use a half-fart to kill Lucario on the first stock before his aura starts getting in the nasty range.
• Wario can actually very consistently edgeguard Lucario with his dair. Since the hitbox lingers, it's oddly fast, and it outprioritizes the hitbox on Extreme Speed.
• Chom

It mostly comes down to skill, but Lucario still has to rely very heavily on waiting until he is at high aura before he can really start fighting Wario.

Wario being able to edgeguard Lucario consistently is huge in the matchup, since at kill percents Wario can just try and get Lucario offstage to get a dair kill.

In my personal opinion it is 60-50 in Wario's favor, but at a high enough level I consider it 50-50.

 

[NeonSpeed315]

I consider this 60/40 in warios favor. (Keep in mind I don't have at good Lucarios to practice with.)
Lucario can combo at low % at any aura lvl.
At high % fast damage wracking.
Nice command grab.
Amazing recovery.
Somewhat small.
Amazing kill power at high %.
At high % can kill early.
Somewhat faster moves.
Wario has trouble killing without waft or a good read.
You are hard to edgeguard with super speed's...well...super speed. (Keep in mind, Hard=\=Impossible.)
Doesn't have to approach...........until now really.

For Wario, it goes like this:
Heavy, so hard to kill.
Can completely camp lucario out with Chomp. This means that he isn't forced to approach to give lots of damage, and in return can camp untilwaft is charged, approach, nair-waft, and camp again.
Wario is more agile.
More range.
Arguably better command grab, which, when combined with his aerial mobility, is a pain in the arse.
Lucario is somewhat light too.



I feel if the Wario religiously follows the camping style, he can win this MU. If the Lucario somehow denies camping, he can win. (Just my thoughts. Once again, I've never fought a GOOD Lucario b4. I'm just analyzing their data and styles.)

All in All, I Say vs. is 55/45-60/40.

Wario is floaty and around medium-weight, so you can kill him a tad earlier.

Maybe it is just me, but I don't consider 10th heaviest, tied with IKE, mid weight. He is def a heavy, just a light Heavy.

 

[Browny]

Its weird for me to play as Wario and feel really limited in my ability to get the KO considering in brawl it was like 'oh youre at 110? you die now' *fsmash*.

IDK, I'd imagine that wario has a hard time KO'ing Lucario, more than most. Someone needs to dedicate their life to dodging wario to see how high you can live... fthrow is probably going to end up Lucarios biggest threat.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Yeah, Wario's kill power is definitely nerfed from Brawl. Nair and Uair aren't as strong and Fsmash doesn't have it's ridiculous priority and super armor.

Back on to the topic of Lucario. I generally use Fthrow and ftilt to take off stocks against Lucario. Dair is great for some edgeguard kills and Bair is pretty good. Lucario wants to look out for fthrow and Down air the most, though.

 

[NeonSpeed315]

Its weird for me to play as Wario and feel really limited in my ability to get the KO considering in brawl it was like 'oh youre at 110? you die now' *fsmash*.

IDK, I'd imagine that wario has a hard time KO'ing Lucario, more than most. Someone needs to dedicate their life to dodging wario to see how high you can live... fthrow is probably going to end up Lucarios biggest threat.

Usmash, dair, bair, f throw, waft, f tilt, landing wheelie, Wario may not have many kill moves, but he has setups for his most prominent one. Also, outside waft, you can still kill early with his hard edge guards.

Yeah, Wario's kill power is definitely nerfed from Brawl. Nair and Uair aren't as strong and Fsmash doesn't have it's ridiculous priority and super armor.

Well fsmash traded priority and super amor for range and knockback, but the new animation is unacceptable regardless.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

You are hard to edgeguard with super speed's...well...super speed. (Keep in mind, Hard=\=Impossible.)

In my experience, I actually find Wario is one of the best at edgeguarding Lucario just because of how good his dair is for doing it. Wario's dair's quick startup, lingering hitbox, and general mobility makes it a great move for edgeguarding against him. It also has priority over the hitbox of Extreme Speed. Seriously, just dairing at the ledge at the right time makes it very hard for Lucario to make it back. Don't even get me started on throwing the bike, either.

 

[NeonSpeed315]

In my experience, I actually find Wario is one of the best at edgeguarding Lucario just because of how good his dair is for doing it. Wario's dair's quick startup, lingering hitbox, and general mobility makes it a great move for edgeguarding against him. It also has priority over the hitbox of Extreme Speed. Seriously, just dairing at the ledge at the right time makes it very hard for Lucario to make it back. Don't even get me started on throwing the bike, either.

Lol you have a point, but most Lucarios that are smart would fly over, no? I avent fought a gud lucario, so idk.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

But the landing lag on Extreme Speed is absolutely atrocious. So bad that Wario can miss the offstage dair and go back on to the stage to punish Lucario.

 

[smbmaster99MFGG]

If they angle down while they're on-stage and manage to get there before ES ends they'll be able to avoid that awful landing lag. Can be tough against Wario's edgeguarding, but it's still possible, especially with high Aura and a good deal of knowledge of ES's speed and limits.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Yeah, but if Wario can hit Lucario so he is forced to recover from a diagonally down position, it's very hard for him to avoid an edgeguard.

 

[Lange]

Mostly Wario mains commenting on this matchup I wanted to add a few thoughts. After playing Warios and my playing partner mains a good Wario I want to say this matchup feels closer to even. Lucario has a good throw combo game on Wario, can outrange Wario with his disjointed moves especially at high aura as well. Another thought is Wario can get knocked off the bike fairly easily by the force palm and such.

Lucario can also kill Wario easier than he him without a read and that's a significant factor. I don't see why Wario mains are posting here like the matchup is skewed when it's not. Though you guys did admit you haven't fought good Lucario and are going on theory which I understand.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

It isn't bias at all. I have a sparring partner who sidemains Lucario so I know his tools and tricks very well. I also consistently beat a local top player's Lucario.

 

[Lwin]

I main wario and second Lucario, so I'm a bit knowledge on both characters. Right off the bat, I know that wario camp out Lucario if he wanted to. Lucario doesn't have the speed, nor the frame data to pose too much of a threat to a campy wario. Aura sphere poses less of a threat in this matchup since wario can always eat it and his objective won't be to approach Lucario, so be can stay at a safe reactionable distance. I feel like this partly cripples lucarios neutral game at least for me, since the way I use aura sphere is as a threat to bait shields and aid my approaches.
I will also emphasize glasses boi's point: Wario's ability to ledgeguard Lucario cannot be understated. A good wario will give you trouble getting back on stage. And the threat of a half waft taking your stock early offstage is all too real. A well timed fart or spaced dair will take the stock earlier than you might think, and recovering vertically from below is pretty much a deathwish.
The inverse simply isn't true however and it leaves you at a disadvantage. Lucarios crappy offstage presence and combined with Wario's great recovery means you'll have a hard time punishing him for recovering.
Also @ Lange Lucario being able to slightly outrange Wario with his normals isnt that big of a deal considering how neglegible that range advantage is and Wario's ability to weave in and out if he chooses to do so. One advantage Lucario does have is playing footsies or the spacing game since he can stay just as safe as wario can. But it's all a moot point considering Wario is perfectly content with you playing your spacing game since it just gives him more time to charge waft.
There really isn't any one aspect of the matchup Lucario actually wins in. Optimal wario play can be very boring and frustrating for Lucario since he really doesn't threaten him Wario unless he decides to go in. Good luck consistently landing grabs without something like luigis fire ball to apply constant pressure. What Lucario does have going for him is his aura mechanic, as it can net you a few nifty early KOs, but you're going to have to be extra careful because anytime youre knocked offstage can mean the stock. And one more thing, how is it that you suppose Lucario has an easier time killing Wario? Your most reliable option is using AS or an uair to catch him in midair and both will require you to be in relatively high precent before they ko Wario at a reasonable percent. Sorry but there's no way this matchup is even. Lucario has nothing solid on Wario. Not hopeless, but definitely in Wario's favor.