Lucario Moveset Discussion:

[phi1ny3]

Utilt is great! It's makes a rainbow arc (who doesn't like pyro rainbows?), has very low cooldown lag for the type of tilt it is and doesn't afraid of offensive options.
This needs bumping.

 

[Alus]

Awesome...

I'll mess with this later.

 

[culexus・wau]

All I can say is that Lucario has a deceptively good pivot grab. Proof?
Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca2Izt_a0pU#t=5m55s
That's like almost melee marth range lolol.

Pivot grab has crazzzzzzzzzzzy range, I have this one time when I chain like 2 of them because a marth airdodged into the ground.

he was so disoriented I got a free gimp next to the stage for a 0-death <3

 

[Aurasmash14]

We should discuss pivot grabbing next lol.

 

[Alus]

Of course,

I read over and over again more pivot than U-tilt Lmao.

Wtf

Anyways.....

 

[PrinceAlus]

*poof*
....We will talk about pivot grab from here.

I'll update later.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Pivot Grab! awesome range, slide is massive, makes up for ****ty regular grab, looks cool.

8/10

 

[phi1ny3]

Use it defensively if they FF an aerial towards you, use it to punish spotdodge or roll, nice crossup option as well, easier to buffer after an AD though.
Longer range in exchange for a slight reduction in speed, I'd give it 8.5/10.

 

[Alus]

You guys suck sometimes.

 

[phi1ny3]

No way am I gonna double post, I've done it too much already! lol

 

[Browny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebZ1yTO9viw

0:12

more pivot grab silliness I believe thats actually the first time ive ever tried, and managed to land a retreating pivot grab. whats weird is how sonic was no where near me when i actually did the pivot :/

 

[HyperEnergy]

Feh, I only use pivot grabs when someone starts charging at me from far away. And I'll often try to bait said charge.

 

[Zucco]

I never pivot grab, ever.

 

[phi1ny3]

wai- so you were never practicing it like it said on AiB?

 

[tedward2000]

So uh, wheres the information about Pivot Grab, cause I'll I see are people talking about when they use it and so forth.
Minus DJ, cause he has a vid, and a pic showing its range.
Perhaps a rudimentary distance measurement to show the differences of the grab range to start.

Thats just me on a late night.
-t2

 

[Zucco]

wai- so you were never practicing it like it said on AiB?

lol nope. Ive tried to but I never know when to use it so instead of taking unnecessary damage for messing it up I just tend to not use it at all.

 

[Browny]

pivot grabs are really hard to remember do unless you deliberately plan them in advance :/
obviously not an issue with tether grabbers since thats a core tactic, but when ur weighing up options in your head rapidly on what to do in any given situation, a pivot grab seems to rarely be worth it, if you can even remember in time. IMO anyway...

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, that's why they're only really good for punishing/crossup. It comes out on frame 9, btw.
Oh yeah, and you can do a shielded version of it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Double posting to say pivot grab can nab tornado.
Just sayin'

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm pretty sure IC and Ness can even pivot grab him out of tornado.

God, how many ways can we punish tornado spam already? I'm counting 5.

I've been tinkering with this a week ago, I was like, "WTF he just snapped into my hands."

I don't think it's better than Snakes pivot grab but dang is this good.

 

[phi1ny3]

This is good, especially with how crappy his grab range is normally.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What are you talking about, grabbing people with his ears is totally better than not being able to grab people 3" from him.

 

[Kitamerby]

What are you talking about, grabbing people with his ears is totally better than not being able to grab people 3" from him.

It depends on the character you're facing, actually. In all honesty, the way Lucario's grab works isn't actually all that bad. The two real problems imo is that his standing grab range is JUST enough to be unable to grab out of certain moves, and that his dash grab still too short and too laggy. In reality, the fact that he has near perfect traction (not sure about icy surfaces though. I should test that.) is enough to make him able to shieldgrab most misspaced kill or disrupting moves like most characters, such as Wario's Fsmash, while the vertical height lets him actually grab quite a few things that most characters can't reach as easily, such as misspaced Dairs from Peach, or even low priority dairs, such as Sonic's Dair, which is really cool. I'm actually unsure how many people can safely grab above them like Lucario, but I don't expect that number to be high. This is actually a pretty cool thing if you think about it from this angle. On a lesser note, I'm sure people are often caught by surprise when you grab them from the weird angles that Lucario does.

The downside is that his grab range makes his grab sorta hard to time, as well as being overall easy to pressure with even moderate disjoints, not to mention the random "OMG WTF I SHOULD'VE GRABBED THAT. GOD DAMMIT" moments you get if you're used to other characters. The extra range makes it easier to time standing grabs on grounded opponents if you're grabbing someone outright, and it actually allows other characters to reach more pokes and possibly spaced kill moves out of shield that we just plain can't reach in time, as we would have to drop shield and then dash grab or Force Palm Grab, which gives them much more time to escape than against other characters. (at least 7 frames for shield drop, then 9 frames for dash grab, 6 frames for jab, or 12 frames for Force Palm grab, meaning that a move that could've been unsafe at -8 shield stun(not very uncommon) becomes completely safe, as well as any poke under 14-18 frames ) I think that Sonic's ftilt is probably unsafe on Wario, but safe on Lucario because of this, for example.

Another good thing about large horizontal grabs is that it allows you to perform frame traps on some characters. Some characters, like Charizard or Marth can grab us, then release us and grab us again unless we roll away or spotdodge. If we spotdodge against Marth, he can grab us again if he waits, and if he predicts a roll away, he can probably dash after us and sideB or dash attack us. This isn't matchup changing, but it is very irritating against a few characters.

Also pivot grab is overrated and shouldn't be used that much imo. I'd probably think otherwise if Luc's dash wasn't so slow to the point where it doesn't really matter, if the pivot grab was easier to perform, if the stupid command itself didn't take up more frames than you're supposed to be shortening, or if the pivot grab's short backwards dash itself at the start didn't cut off almost all the extra distance you're supposed to be getting out of it. It's a nice mindgame if you're being chased by a tornado or cyclone or any other "lunging" special, though.

I honestly don't see what all the hype is about with his pivot grab. Maybe I need to look into it more. I'm really just turned off by the command itself for a standing pivot grab. Maybe after I look into the vertical grab box on the pivot grab a bit more, I'll like it better. After all, people are already commonly surprised by the angles I get grabs from with the regular grab, dash grab, and force palm grab, if I can do it safely from a farther distance at the same angle, maybe it'll really start being a core tool...

 

[ckm]

pivot grabbing mk out of tornado is hard enough that it doesnt really matter.

breaking dair with tornado is easier than that... I don't even bother with the dair... in other words who cares.

I do plan to try to work pivot grab into my game more, but i think the main reason its not great is simply our poor movement speed.... it just doesnt surprise anyone. I think the defensive version probably has the most potential.

 

[PrinceAlus]

BackThrow...

Starting here.

 

[Zucco]

I do plan to try to work pivot grab into my game more, but i think the main reason its not great is simply our poor movement speed.... it just doesnt surprise anyone. I think the defensive version probably has the most potential.

Finally, something on the Lucario boards I agree with.

 

[phi1ny3]

Trela used pivot grab for mindgame spacing purposes, but this is about bthrow anyways.
Bthrow is amazing, it helps our quasi-camp game from being complete garbage (like Ivy's), since that low trajectory is perfect for pressuring with an AS/BAS, especially against characters like snake who don't want to jump to avoid it. It's also a late killer/setup for gimping, good damage, and good for forcing a reaction + capitalizing/punishing that reaction at low percents.

 

[Gregory2590]

Grants you spacing, decent damage, and is a good "@#$% off" move at high percents.

 

[phi1ny3]

It doesn't kill till very late unfortunately, I thought it was a little faster XP.
Oh well, good resetting/punishing move.

 

[Aurasmash14]

can we discuss another move now?

 

[Gregory2590]

So soon?

10soon

 

[Alus]

Do we really want to continue this? =/

 

[Aurasmash14]

uhh, yes?

come on! at least until we get to Fsmash!

 

[John12346]

If your opponent is at a relatively high percentage, and s/he just killed you, Bthrow is really your only possible kill move right at the start of your stock. Try to fool your opponents to the ledge, and try to finish them off if possible.

Otherwise, it could also be used as a damage racker alongside Dthrow, as they both do 10% damage.

Pretty much everything stated above, in other words. ;p

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I think UTilt will normally kill earlier than BThrow except what John12346 said.

 

[Alus]

Sorry that I am really busy guys! D:

If someone really badly wants this to continue I'll give the account to someone else. PM me.

 

[Jin Kazama]

I would, but no one knows me lol...

I can't quite make out which throw it is, but seeing the last page, I'll talk about B-throw. It does basically nothing but put a big distance between you and your opponent. It has decent kill power for a throw. When you use this at low %, you're knocking your opponent to the ground (no one techs this lol), maybe you want to tech chase?

 

[phi1ny3]

If lucario were to let go before the opponent got slammed, bthrow would be techable. But since it's part of the throw animation itself, it isn't techable. Although you could technically tech the ground if you're still tumbling afterward towards it.

 

[Jin Kazama]

I'm talking about when you throw them at about 20%, they fly pretty low to the ground, mostly not teching/airdodging. Some of course do and leave you in a horrible position.

 

[phi1ny3]

In that case, if they didn't DI, yes, it can be teched.