Lucario Stage Counterpicks/Bans Thread (Snake)

[Supreme Dirt]

Lucario Stage Counterpick Thread​

I am unashamedly stealing the formatting from the Toon Link boards. I figured we need a thread like this, it definitely can't hurt to have one. Credit to SosK for the format. Here is the original thread on the Toon Link boards.

How to read this list: "Counter" indicates stages to counter pick against the character. It goes from the best stage to play against that character to a good stage to play against that character. This means you'll usually be wanting to select the first stage and if not, the second, etc. "Ban" works the other way around. The first stage is the one you'll want to be banning against the character and the second stage is also something you'll want to avoid. The stage in (parenthesis) at the start is the stage you should strike before your first match, and NOT one of the stages you should ban, unless it is listed again.

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Metaknight
Strike: Halberd, Delfino, Lylat Cruise
Counterpick: Pictochat, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar

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[Supreme Dirt]

Reserving post.

 

[phi1ny3]

Did somebody say "BOOZER"!?

K, I know this MU probably too well for my own good.

Best neutral is probably BF for bowser, strike that (assuming a 3 neutral stage slew).
Best neutral for us is FD, they'll probably strike that if they're smart.

They love Brinstar (while there's grab release stuff that's cut short due to plats, it really helps bowser b/c of smallish blastzones and great plat control, and his recovery is improved, although so is ours), but if you live in a conservative place like Mine, I'd say I'd avoid Halberd or possibly CS. Halberd kils us very low vertically which makes his utilt, dsmash, fortress, uair, occasional sideB top kill, and usmash all lethal (btw fun fact: bowser usmash has two hitboxes, so don't be hasty and punish him on whiff w/o shielding the second hit or outspacing it). Most of these moves are laughably slow, but you won't believe how many people get killed by them lol.

We love Frigate, PS1, FD, and Pictochat for CPs. Anything with more room to camp and less of bowser getting in your face is good. Frigate makes his recovery far more punishable and has some great pressure areas for lucario (my friend personally hates this stage the most minus more obvious ones like rainbow/Brinstar), and PS1 gives you some really flat ground w/ some pockets of time where you can charge your AS, Picto is great if you know the nuances of the stage, I almost never lose here to bowser tbh (bowser's big hurtbox really makes him susceptible to hazards on the stage, lol).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

How do you think Norfair would work? I could see it badly hurting Bowser, the hazards can hurt pretty badly, and comboing into the lava seems pretty easy. When a wall of lava comes, I could see something ridiculous like a SHFF NAir into the wall to another SHFF NAir... Haven't actually tried it, but it sounds pretty cool in theory.

How about on a 5, 7, and 9 stage starter list? Also, if it's a 3 stage starter list and the TO is using the BBR ruleset, FD isn't a starter.

 

[phi1ny3]

Trust me, I thought so too, but Bowser loves this stage, the ceilings really low, his aerials are actually ver good reactionary aerials so I think he can take advantage of lava about as well as we can, the plats help his recovery as much as it helps ours, and he's got some good plat game on the stage. Lucario does well there, but... bowser does better.

@ FD comment: huh, I see, can I get a link to the original thread?

 

[culexus・wau]

can we do a good character next instead of alphabetical order.

and why is the pokemon trainer trio seperated?

phil basically said everything that needs to be said about bowser.

 

[phi1ny3]

for PT: don't let them have SV as the neutral, it allows them to insta-switch, which helps them avoid fatigue.

 

[culexus・wau]

yeah safeswitches are lame.

I guess you can bait it and aurasphere them out of it tho

just be wary of it I guess

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, let's go in tier order. So MK next.

I'll update the OP later today.

 

[culexus・wau]

The dumbest stage on the stagelist

on the everyday stagelist probably your pick between RC/Brinstar, pick your poison.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh, so Norfair OWAIT HE DOES WELL THERE.

PS2 seems somewhat okay, though he gays the hell out of you on the electric transformation if you aren't in the center.

WAIT GUYS, I'VE GOT IT. WE MAKE HIM AGREE TO PLAY US ON 75M. He'll think he beats us there. Unfortunately, in my region we specifically don't have the rule that allows players to play on a banned stage if both players agree, but those who do... [/iunno, trolling or something]

 

[phi1ny3]

SV da bess since he's always going to strike/ban FD.

Out of curiosity, so by BBR rules, what's the third neutral?

PS1 I like, I'm not sure how good MK actually is on the stage, but it's campy and transformy without doing much to you back during those transformations.

Brinstar is dumb. I actually think Lucario might do better on RC than Brinstar tbh.

Delfino is one that most MKs in a more conservative region will pick, but tbh it's not that bad for Lucario.

Picto's another good CP if you've got that available. Blastzone-wise it's another FD with hazards.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I actually can't find the 3.1 ruleset thread. Where the hell did it go?

It was Yoshi's Island (Brawl) iirc.

 

[culexus・wau]

By bbr reccomended it's YI/bf/sv

By like... What people actually do it's bf/fd/sv

 

[phi1ny3]

YI is meh. the stage helps MK out more than people realize, but it helps Lucario's recovery options at times (although all he has to do really is invinci-nair from a ledgedrop and it's curtains for a wallcling). I don't really know if it's overall great for Lucario, but it's definitely better than BF, where he can tornado with ridiculous amounts of safety.

 

[culexus・wau]

Don't forget about cornelious!

 

[Supreme Dirt]

The thing about MK is that no matter what stages you have as neutrals, he does well on all of them.

I'd say, assuming a 9 stage neutral list (which we use in the GTA), we'd want to strike Halberd and Delfino right away. They both let MK shark us, which is just BS. Next I'd say we'd want to get rid Lylat Cruise. We really don't want to deal with the BS that stage can bring. That would leave Castle Siege, Battlefield, Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium, Smashville, and Yoshi's Island. After the MK strikes, you want to go to the one where you are gayed the least by him. Not quite sure which one, easily YI, but he will probably strike it.

Opinions?

 

[culexus・wau]

Pictochat

best CP we have


Siege and PS1 are risky but fruitful beware timeouts on PS1 though during 8 minutes, it tends to last long.

Lylat works too.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

What about Japes?

I'm pretty much cool with any stage MK CPs me on as long as its not RC. Hate that stage so much, why is it legal? Blllaaargggghhhhhh.

 

[phi1ny3]

Japes is good in the sense that it lets you live for a long while provided you avoid getting SL edgeguarded on the sides.

The problem is it's such camp/timeout material, it's ridiculous.

I've been timed out by MK on this stage in tournament, which made me almost never use this stage again lol, at least against MK/Falco/Sonic.

imo lylat doesn't screw over our recovery as much as other characters.

That being said, I honestly don't want even another small complication when dealing with MK offstage, so probably not my first pick. Lylat on the plus side does have a large ceiling and fairly large distance from center to side blastzones (smaller than FD, equal to BF, larger than SV/YI iirc).

Of course, center to end is not a good measurement, but it is a decent way to draw some kind of basic idea about the stage's size. It's actually pretty average-ish from the end of the stage to the side blastzone.

 

[Pitbuller26]

Depends on the stage list what we want as our CP against MK is FD or Picto if it's legal. I also had some success with Castle Siege lately but that could just be a preference.

For what MK CPs against us also depends on the list. If Rainbow and Brinstar are both allowed, well go with the one you're more comfortable with. If both aren't legal then I'd ban Delfino or Halberd due to sharking.

In terms of neutrals, never fight MK on Battlefield, those platforms screw us over. I also wouldn't want to fight MK on Lylat either.

 

[culexus・wau]

Mk will time you out on japes if you let him holy ****



imo battlefield or smashville is fine. SV is definitely safer imo but its a matter of preference.

learn both stages, I actually find MK's gliding under the stage a lot on SV harder sometimes then the platform game on BF lol.

 

[MJG]

Lol.

Stealin nugguhs.


Merry Christmas.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

:D

I'll edit the OP some time next week, been busy.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

BUMP.

I'll be doing a write-up for Bowser tonight.

Discuss MK.

GOGOGO.

 

[D. Disciple]

play him on any stage

 

[Supreme Dirt]

LOL, I just realized we didn't really discuss Bowser, we discussed MK.

Discuss Snake gogogo!

 

[Steam]

If snake doesn't ban it for some reason and it's legal. Japes is unbelievably good against snake.

Picto is okay but C4 hides really well >.>

FD is never a bad choice...

ban halberd, that's an easy one lol.

beyond that I don't really know... all I do against snakes it take them to RC with MK if they ban japes and take them to Japes with lucario if they ban RC

 

[Supreme Dirt]

For me, replace MK with GaW, but the same.

Assuming two stage bans (there's only like 2 regions total with them) what would we ban? He doesn't do well against us on Norfair (we wreck him up REALLY BADLY) so the only thing I can really think of would be Smashville.

 

[Pitbuller26]

For me, replace MK with GaW, but the same.

Assuming two stage bans (there's only like 2 regions total with them) what would we ban? He doesn't do well against us on Norfair (we wreck him up REALLY BADLY) so the only thing I can really think of would be Smashville.

Well banning Halberd is a given. Second choice to ban would be Delfino. As much as I like that stage, I don't like the grenade bs he can do there.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh yeah, Delfino. Definitely, then. That stage is pretty bs against Snake, come to think of it. I remember getting spiked through the water once... Luckily it wasn't in tournament.