Lucario to be replaced in SSB4?

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Marth got buffed in this sequel
Maybe teh new Marth will get buffed in the next one too!!!11eleven!

I am sorry but Lucario is not the new Marth.

 

[tedward2000]

And take it to fact that there might not be a SSB4.
meaning lucario will never be cut!

But with the progression of gaming every few years or so a new nintendo product will come out to replace the old Wii.

And every new system has its own Smash bros.

So... one can assume that there will be a SSB4, on the new system. How many years from now? A couple.

It all depends on the gen's that come later. If another gen that comes out that is equal to G/S's honor, and theres a pokemon similar to Lucario and Mewtwo, then one can expect that Lucario will get the Boot.
Or the next gen pokemon from the xth gen will be included will the other pokefighers with lucario still in the cast.

Will Mewtwo ever come back? Slim to none chance of that.
Lucario Staying, higher then Mewtwo's. Sakurai personally made the Brawl Lucario himself. If he some how gets involved in SBB4, I don't think he's going to give his own character the BanHammer.

But thats in a Few years, and if Sakurai joins in the fight or not. (pun kinda intended)
-t2

 

[Kitamerby]

I am sorry but Lucario is not the new Marth.

By what logic? I've already proven that he is in your own boards. :\

 

[Alus]

well if lucario ends up in SSB4 we will be sure that lucario wont be the same (look at what they did to mario.)

Waiiiiit, hold up, hold up.

Brawl isn't even a year ****ing old and these topics have spread out of the general discussion forums already?

SON OF A *****.

w/e

some people care about their favorite char its like their fantesy alter ego or something

 

[Timbers]

(look at what they did to mario.)

and every other character in the game.

 

[Alus]

Lucario is currently a 3rd-4th main of mine and yeah, I see him getting the axe.

If I have learnt anything from brawl it's that there are some characters who are in "current fame" spots. Roy was that "current spot" for FE which is why he got cut for Ike. Mewtwo was the "current spot" for the movie star pokemon so he got cut in favor of Lucario.

The only way I can see Lucario staying is if Sakurai chooses not to cut characters for the 4th game. Because we should all know by now that fanbases don't last. . . theres going to be a new 6th gen pokemon revealed to star in a movie and s/he will be the "NEW HOT, COOL, Fire/ Thunder type called Kyuuna! It has it's own Fox Fire attack that mixes Fire and Thunder! OMG, it should be in SSB4!" or something like that.

Thats the nature of these things . . . 1st gen has the only pokemon who have long standing love.
For every pound of love that Lucario had theres going to be 3 lbs for the love of the new one who happens to star in a pokemon movie at the time Sakurai starts making SSB4.

But there are ways that I see this saving him. . .
1. If, again, no characters are cut (seems like a long shot to me seeing as it's common for characters to be cut in fighting games).

2. GameFreak doesn't make the 6th gen reveal pokemon a pokemon that could, with in reason, fit inside the game as a character (if they make it some gaint thing like the 2nd gen birds. But I don't think they will do that after what happened with Lucario. They will probly realize how much it helps to use a cool smaller human shaped pokemon over the likes of a huge, powerful pokemon as seen with the fame of Mew2 and Lucario over those huge types)

3. . . .Yeah, I thought I had a 3rd but I don't.
Either Sakurai chooses to only add characters and not cut/ replace them or GameFreak falls back into making the [insert gen] hype pokemon some huge, oddly shaped thing thats better suited for a pokeball leaving no one to take the Movie slot.

There is hope . . .but yeah. . .don't be shocked if Lucario is axed for the newest gen's hype mon .

but they made someone called the POKEMON TRAINER!!!

cant they just add pokemon to him or whatever?

 

[dr00]

i love how everyone's freaking out over speculation

 

[.:Mr.Melee:.]

Well, I do hate one reason why they put Lucario in... They replaced Mewtwo. Mewtwo is my
3rd favourite in Melee (2nd - Roy, 1st - Yoshi). And, how can we know that there'll be a
SSB4? SSB4 would most likely be a Side-Story to the actual series. SSB4 would most likely be a DS Game. I've e-mailed Nintendo about them making a DS version of the Smash Bros. and I gave them a Newcomer Roster. I can still remember it I think... Well, anyway, back on the Lucario topic. Here are reasons why he should/shouldn't be in the next Smash Bros. game.

Reasons why he should be in:
Unique Moveset
Important Role in the Game
Not a clone of Mewtwo
Another Pokemon Character worth playing
Stands out in the Game

Reasons why he shouldn't be in:
He replaced a good character
Aura Sphere like Mewtwo's Shadow Ball
A common person to put in​

Those are MY opinions. Have fun reading!

Oh, and a message to Sakurai -
Next time, don't fake replacing a character. We all know that Toon Link is Young Link! So... Yeah, once I get Brawl, I'll not be Toon Link!

 

[Nurotasama]

i love how everyone's freaking out over speculation

On a game that won't even come out for another 7 years or so, likely.

 

[Black/Light]

Reasons Lucario leaves -
Lucario is like Mewtwo, and Mewtwo left
Lucario might not be popular when SSB4 comes out, and their might be a more popular pokemon

Reasons Lucario stays -
Unusual ability (Didn't stop Mewtwo from being cut)
popular (didn't stop Mewtwo . . . and it wont stop the 6th version of Mewtwo/Lucario from being more popular)
not a clone(didn't stop Mewtwo)
better and more popular than Mewtwo, the only non-clone cut (Amoung who and at what time? In melee times the pokemon fans loved Mewtwo and he was top most wanted to be in melee. . . .)
Mewtwo is the only other character in the history of Pokemon that could replace Lucario - Lucario is an individual among a mass of pokemon (that makes no sense. . . .Lucario is Mew2 4th gen. . . who knows what pokemon will be Mew2 6th gen)

Not tring to start any thing but yeah . . . like I said, for ever person who loved and wanted Lucario for brawl there will be just as many and more for the next pokemon to take the Mew2-Lucario slot and to think his fame will last that long is wishful thinking.

And there are cloney characters in brawl so I don't think Sakurai cares about only getting rid of the clones over original characters as seen with Mew2.

but they made someone called the POKEMON TRAINER!!!

cant they just add pokemon to him or whatever?

IDK but by all means PT, as is, is the best rep for the series other than Pika.
IDK what will happen with the new SSB but I don't think Sakurai holds much regard for the "current fame" picks when he choses to trim the fat. Lucario is a "current fame" pick so I take it that he will share the same fate as Mew2 unless Sakurai just plans to add more characters over cutting them.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

By what logic? I've already proven that he is in your own boards. :\

Uh, no you haven't. One of your arguments was that he can combo, well the best combo(er) in Brawl is probably worse at comboing than the worst comboer in Melee. So therefore you cannot compare them in terms of comboing due to the difference in the games themselves. (Also if you use comboing as a point, Lucario starts to look like a lot of other Melee characters.)

You also say that Lucario has tippers and good aerials, while this is true, (Brawl) Marth has both of these.

You also mention Lucario has chain grabs, many people in brawl do, but Marth has his own set of chain grabs (primarily fthrow), and numerous grab release set ups.

Lucario also is on the heavier side, while Marth (both Melee and Brawl), is one the lighter side.

Marth has never had a projectile, and Lucario's projectile is a key stone in his game. Because Lucario has a projectile, Lucario tends to be on the campy side, and get goes without saying that Marth has never been a campy character (surpisingly though, Brawl Marth has a pretty good defensive game against non projectile users).

Lucario is a bit on the slow side; Melee and Brawl Marth are faster than him (both in attack speed and running).

Melee Marth was considered the best edgeguarder in the game, while Lucario edgeguarding aren't stellar. Marth doesn't have the best edguarding in the game this iteration, but he is up there with the best. Lucario doesn't have an aerial Meteor Smash either, unlike both Marths.

Melee Marth had a fairly good recovery from high angles, and a sub par one from below, Brawl Marth is the same way. In addition, Melee Marth was harder to gimp, and so is Brawl Marth (mostly because of Dancing Blade stall). Unfortunatly, Lucario's innocuous up-b makes him far more easy to gimp.

Lucario feels very floaty, and so does Brawl Marth but to a much lesser extent.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in general Brawl Marth out-ranges Lucario, and Melee Marth was known for his range.

Marth has never been safe on block, but Lucario's smashes come out quite slowly.

It appears that Lucario has trouble killing upwards; Marth has never had this problem.

Oh and of course there is the similarity that (with the exception of shield breaker), Melee Marth and Brawl Marth share all the same moves (with little attribute changes here and there).

 

[Timbers]

I'm sorry, did you just say Marth's recovery is harder to gimp than Lucario? I laughed.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Yes I did, if someone is on the edge, you Dancing Blade Stall, forcing them to get off or get stage spiked. Also fairs onto the stage can work well and his counter ***** potential edgeguarders.

Although Lucario has more distance, but since it doesn't do any damage it is much less fearsome. Lucario can double team, but it comes out much slower than counter, and has a good chance of not hitting at all. Lucario has Aura Sphere, and although formidable, is not the end all, in terms of returning.

Something I forgot to add to my list, Marth has never had aura powers.

When it is all said and done, I will give Lucario some credit, if Marth wasn't in Brawl, then Lucario would be the new Marth.

EDIT: THIS

Lucario is not the new Marth. Stop claiming this without anything to back it up.

Oooh, Lucario can combo. And? Oooh, Lucario has a tipper-sweetspot. And? So do many other people.

 

[Timbers]

I'm not playing this "Lucario is the new Marth" game.

The recovery. Marth's actual recovery is just as easy to edgehog as Lucario's. How many active frames does Marth's uB have? 15 at best? Ledge invincibility I believe is well over a second. Marth's recovery moves in a very predictable fashion, you should have no trouble with his "damaging" uB. Dancing blade stall doesn't work in Brawl. Why in the world would you want to cut all of your horizontal DI? Marth's horizontal recovery isn't the greatest to begin with, I have no idea why you'd want to do this. Compare his recovery to just about anyone else's and you'll see how easy it is to hug the ledge on him.

Marth has counter. Marth cannot use counter every single time he's knocked off stage. There's a thing called predictable, and you'd be doing a whole lot of it. Also trying to use counter below stage level as Marth is just killing yourself.

Marth has his fair to defend himself. Luc has aurasphere to defend himself.

Marth's recovery is incredibly linear, and as it is hard to punish his dolphin slash (nigh impossible really) it leaves him to be easily predictable with his recovery. Luc has a wall cling with his recovery on half of the neutrals, and even more on counterpicks. His recovery is tons more versatile. If he's getting edgehogged by his opponent, then Marth shares the same predicament by that same player who's in a position to be on that ledge. Luc has versatility, and lacks intimidation with his uB. Marth is the exact opposite. This "Luc's recovery does no damage lololol" bull**** is getting boring, especially from Marth players.

 

[Nurotasama]

Actually, the character I get edgehog kills the most versus is Marf -- his recovery is simple and very predictable. Extreme Speed edgehog ftw! =3

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I think you misunderstood my point with the dancing blade stall, if one use the first move of dancing blade in the air, then you significantly lowers your falling speed. This means, if someone tries to edgehog you (given you have enough altitude), you can use the first move of your dancing blade to wait until their invincibility frames wear off.

Yes counter can become predictable, but so can double team, and counter works better than double team.

Also counter is a momentum alterer, so if you use it below the stage, you usually won't die.

 

[Pierce7d]

If you're edgehogging Marth players, then they're scrubby. Sorry, but with DB stall, I should NEVER get edgehogged, unless you have sick timing with a tether replenish. I should never be too low to execute DB stall, or I failed to employ proper DI.

Otherwise, Dolphin Slash will stage spike you, which all of my more knowledgeable opponents respectfully fear. Extreme speed doesn't even have a hitbox.

 

[Timbers]

I'm pretty sure you're not going to be doing any significant stalling unless you're in some type of ascent in his jump. If you're descending, you're just killing your horizontal DI. Not a good idea.

When'd I ever bring up double team? It's a ****ty move. No one in their right mind would use that to counter aerial pursuit.

Countering below stage level kills you. Fact. Especially if they don't bite and grab ledge instead, then they get their invincibility frames and you die.

If you're edgehogging Marth players, then they're scrubby. Sorry, but with DB stall, I should NEVER get edgehogged, unless you have sick timing with a tether replenish. I should never be too low to execute DB stall, or I failed to employ proper DI.

Otherwise, Dolphin Slash will stage spike you, which all of my more knowledgeable opponents respectfully fear. Extreme speed doesn't even have a hitbox.

You talk about how skilled Marths should never be edgehogged, and then assume Lucario is easy to edgehog because he doesn't have a hitbox. I'm laughing. Because you know, all Lucarios are scrubs and recover in the dumbest ways possible right?

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Um no, not Fact, at a certain point yes, most of the time no. If you think the first move of Dancing Blade doesn't stall you that much, go try it.

 

[Timbers]

Um no, not Fact, at a certain point yes, most of the time no. If you think the first move of Dancing Blade doesn't stall you that much, go try it.

It stalls your horizontal momentum. Vertical? Not really.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Yes it does, the first move of Dancing Blade severely diminish your downward descent,

 

[Timbers]

and completely kills your horizontal DI.

Like I said, if you're in a position to stall with DB, then you shouldn't even consider the possibility of a ledgehog, because you're, more often than not, able to safely recover.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Not if someone is invincible on the ledge, and it doesn't matter that it "kills" your horizontal DI.

EDIT: Realized you were talking about something else.

There are many situations where you cannot reach the stage through Dolphin Slash, but would still be able to DB stall.

 

[Timbers]

Position yourself where Marth's dolphin slash will be peaked when he reaches the ledge. Do a DB. Kick yourself because you killed Marth. If you have an additional length on Marth's uB when recovering, then you shouldn't worry about being gimped. Do whatever you want.

This is the same for Lucario's uB. If he has an additional length on his uB, then he can recover onto the stage (albeit more dangerous) or simply fire an aurasphere at the ledge if someone's hugging it. This is IF he has an additional length on his uB from his current position to the stage ledge. If he's completely extending his uB to reach it, then he most likely won't. Same goes for Marth.

And what got it in your heads that I'm calling Marth's recovery worse than Lucarios? A bit defensive, but saying Lucario's is worse than Marth's is ignorant. Id gauge them on par with each other.

EDIT: And as a footnote, Lucario's very floaty and has a great midair jump. Lucario will rarely even need to use his uB, unless said Lucario ****s up. Same goes for Marth.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

LMAO @ you


that is all

 

[Timbers]

LMAO @ you


that is all

Lacks reasoning.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

There is a surprisingly large range, where you can grab the edge, but not land on the stage. All of that range is where you can DB stall.

Unfortunately this argument doesn't appear to be going anywhere anytime soon, so maybe we should just agree to disagree.

However, if someone else takes up the new Marth debate, then I might continue.

 

[Timbers]

Lucario and marth both have huge sweetspots on the ledge. I don't feel like comparing the two, but they're both quite large.

Luc can throw aurasphere at anyone attempting to ledgehog him. You can DB stall. Luc is floaty, has a great midair jump, and a versatile recovery. I'm sure Marth has his own aspects that outweigh Lucario's recovery, but I'm sure a Marth mainer will know more about that than I would.

Just like a Marth mainer would know less about Lucario's recovery than a..well..Lucario mainer. I'm semi-surprised you started a drama fest in here with the "Lucario the new Marth." It was originally all in good humor, and a general opinion from Marth players seem to be that Lucario's recovery=cake. Which may be true? But Lucario doesn't have that great of a matchup to begin with against Marth, and because Marth has an easy time with Lucario's recovery does not mean every character does. Even MK has a harder time gimping Lucario than Marth. ROB plays footsie with Marth's recovery, I dont think that suddenly means Marth's recovery is terrible.

 

[Pierce7d]

Wait, what? Why the hell would I ever drop ALL THE WAY down to where Dolphin Slash recovers at it's peak. Do you know how awesome the vertical range on that move is? Like I said, employing any kind of DI will prevent that from ever needed to happen.

Furthermore, because Lucario's UpB doesn't have a hit box, it makes him VERY easy to chase off stage. He has an awesome Fair, but it doesn't out-range Marth.

Counter off stage will only kill you if you use it idiotically, though I agree that it shouldn't be used to stall in midair when Marth is attempting to recover.

SideB stall both vertical and horizontal momentum significantly. Actually, it gives an upward boost if Marth is rising.

Furthermore, Dolphin Slash's hitbox extends past the ledge onto the stage even if I sweetspot the ledge, so often I just Dolphin Slash people BEFORE THEY EVEN GET TO THE EDGE.

Lucario PAUSES when he does ES, telegraphing it, and then can ES onto the stage if they are close enough. However, since we are talking about edg-hogging instead of edge-guarding (because Marth so obviously wins in that department) then I can sit on the edge forever if the Lucario is not in range to make it back to the stage, and there is NOTHING Lucario can do about it. Like I said, no hitbox on the UpB.

Sorry, but there's NO WAY Marth is easier to edge-hog, if he has a hitbox on his UpB that extends past the edge.

I'm not saying all of this just because I want to be all in your face about it. I could care less in that aspect. It's just statistics that have to do with Marth. No drama intended.

 

[The King Of Hearts]

you have to be kidding... lucario can easily gimp marth upb. just get on the other side of marth and back air or Dair and marth would get stage spiked. dancing blade at the bottom of the stage is a spiffy mind game but if done twice with a little bit of lag and lucario still has invincable frames then expect a FF fairs toward under the stage.

better yet gimp marth far out with AS or anything to give him a link complex... awesome vetical range and horrible horizontal range.

 

[Timbers]

-You're being defensive, I never said Marth is easier to edgehog. He's easier to edgehog than most of the cast, Lucario not included. I'm putting them on par. You say that Marth never has to use the full extent of his uB? What makes you think Lucario does then? He's floatier and has a better midair than Marth, so what makes you think Marth has such an easier time returning to the ledge than Lucario?

-Marth has an easy time with his recovery. Because it's Marth. He's quick in the air and can pursue Lucario's uB very quickly. Read my above post. Marth having an easy time with his recovery doesn't necessarily mean every character does. MK is slow in the air, it's easier to escape MK's pursuit than it is Marth.

-I already mentioned Marth's sideB ascent.

-This is stupid. I've already been over this. If you have time to recover then recover, if they're not in a position to abuse invincibility frames, then why even bring the scenario up. Same goes with Lucario. He doesn't have to drop below stage level to recover. He can recover from virtually anywhere offstage, saying that there's always going to be an opponent on the ledge is idiotic.

-Marth has a better edgeguard game. Irrelevant to bring it up. We're talking about general recoveries, not what Marth does to Lucario or what Lucario does to Marth.

-I didn't say it was easier. Don't be so defensive.

you have to be kidding... lucario can easily gimp marth upb. just get on the other side of marth and back air or Dair and marth would get stage spiked. dancing blade at the bottom of the stage is a spiffy mind game but if done twice with a little bit of lag and lucario still has invincable frames then expect a FF fairs toward under the stage.

It's not that easy. Marth has 4-5 invincibility frames on his startup uB. If you're anywhere near him you're gonna get punished.

 

[Alus]

do you guys think that they will add someone like BlackShadow?

yeah i know...blackshadow sucks but at least he looks like he can fight...

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Sorry, I had to get back in this.

you have to be kidding... lucario can easily gimp marth upb. just get on the other side of marth and back air or Dair and marth would get stage spiked. dancing blade at the bottom of the stage is a spiffy mind game but if done twice with a little bit of lag and lucario still has invincable frames then expect a FF fairs toward under the stage.

Are you aware that Dolphin Slash has invincibility frames on frames 1-5, and that the hitbox comes out on frame five?

 

[Timbers]

I already corrected him. No need to beat a dead horse.

Whereas it is possible to bair Marth's flight on up to the ledge after initial startup(24 frame hitbox), it's generally never a good idea to be off the stage against Marth, especially if you're giving him an opportunity to grab the ledge and leave you stranded midair.

 

[The King Of Hearts]

invincibillity frames....not really but this has been very educational.. O.O;

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Sorry, didn't see that.

 

[Kitamerby]

Sorry, I had to get back in this.



Are you aware that Dolphin Slash has invincibility frames on frames 1-5, and that the hitbox comes out on frame five?

Doesn't mean **** at frame 6. :D

If you're close enough to sweetspot at frame 5, we've really done a sloppy job at edgeguarding, huh?

It's REEEEAAALY fun to just run off the edge and Dair as they attempt a Dolphin Slash. It usually stagespikes them with the death and the explosions and the screaming. :D

 

[The King Of Hearts]

well one thing is that sword.... If being on the other side of him right after midway of the DS then I can see the explosions vering marth off course into a stage spike, but yeah no dropping down and being greted by invincibility frames...all else fails throw mr.saturn and let him handel it.

Mr.saturn for ssbb4

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Doesn't mean **** at frame 6. :D

If you're close enough to sweetspot at frame 5, we've really done a sloppy job at edgeguarding, huh?

It's REEEEAAALY fun to just run off the edge and Dair as they attempt a Dolphin Slash. It usually stagespikes them with the death and the explosions and the screaming. :D

Except Marth has a pointy sword hitbox coming up, and Dolphin Slash rate of ascension is comparable to Sonic's up-b. There is a reason Marth has an advantage in this match-up (but not the only reason).

 

[Timbers]

Dolphin slash is totally irrelevant to the matchup. Marth's spacing game and overall superior air and ground game is what makes the match hard for Luc. Aurasphere only helps so much. Dolphin slash still serves no purpose to the matchup lol.