Lucario vs. Olimar (14) Export

[phi1ny3]

Olimar​

Matchup:

45:55 (disadvantage)

General info:

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grab range, ugh...
It's a lot of trying to get into an otherwise solid low-to-the-ground punish game.
I only played 1 olimar early b4 he quit brawl, lol.
I dunno this matchup well, time for a lucario movie fest!

What to avoid:

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Olimar...

I don't know much about him yet because all I've done against Olimar is get ***** by him. Spacing against him was unusual, being directly above him or to the sides is bad. Fair/Bair/Uair outprioritize your options here because of their disjointedness (or in other words, do not use dair). Don't forget Olimar has an upB for surprises. Honestly, if someone can tell me how I'm supposed to space myself against Olimar, I will love you forever. Also, while his dair is also deadly, it at least has punishable lag.

Also, beware of the yellows, they have the most priority. I've tried using Olimar against my brother's Wolf to see how he works, and while the other colors were more often than not outprioritized by Wolf's attacks, with a yellow Olimar broke through. On another note, uair seems to have crazy priority no matter which color it is.

Also, if Olimar grabs you he will probably try to dthrow/uthrow combo you into an usmash and then uair. If you can't DI away enough, do an air dodge while still DIing away if you want to avoid his combos.

Also, the whistle armor, while VERY annoying, is also easily telegraphed. I was able to bait some of these a few times and while I'd like to say I punished him for it, my spacing was off (T_T). But yeah, if you can figure out when an Olimar will whistle, you can lay down some serious hurt.

Oh yes, and before I forget Olimar also has that obnoxious sideB. He will throw pikmin at you and if you suck at protecting yourself from this, you will easily reach 100% in a few seconds. Please do not get hit by this, and make sure you keep your eyes on Olimar at all times. If you foolishly use laggy moves right next to Olimar to get the pikmin off you will get punished; in fact most Olimars are counting on it.

Right now I basically know what to avoid, but I'm clueless on how to beat him. It seems to me Olimar's ground > Lucario's ground and Olimar's air > Lucario's air. And even if you've got him above you, he has effective ways of escaping juggling, mostly because of the whistle armor. So yeah, Olimar is one tough cookie.

Wait, he did?
I think he finally got it tho.
I still get the occasional temptation to sig his "That's why I'll be better than all of you" phrase, but I'm too nice.
Oli is a bunch of who-ey. Unfortunately, Lucario has to play with all the tricks in the bag, and even then, will get some nasty retribution here and there. pivot grab is just nasty, WAC is wacko (although I think it can be punished if predicted), and usmash is pretty beefy with purple pikmin in particular. Now I don't know who said this, but didn't someone in the Olimar boards who was an Oli say that he got hit by tipped fsmash when trying to grab/pivot grab with a blue pikmin? That sounds nice, but doesn't sound right. I think should get smarter to the matchup (especially the stage pick) so that it should go a little more smoothly, although AS is so nullified to me.
I'm still struggling between 60:40 and 55:45 disadvantage, it has too much to do with stage/gimp option, especially since some of Oli's more better stages vs. us (Corneria, Luigi's) are pretty much banned in most places (including mine). That, and Frigate seems so mean as a CP.
Oli will really need to use shield in this matchup, but lucario will hopefully be able to pull some crossover stuff if the Oli isn't doing things right (but still answerable nonetheless).

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i think uair and usmash are solid enough reasons not to be above olimar

How to win:

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If Olimar had a better air game then Lucario the match up would be heavily in his favor.

Lucario's air game > Olimar's

Oli's isn't great but it's not bad either. He excels on the ground and IMO goes even with Snake for a ground game. The only thing keeping Olimar from top tier is his God awful recovery, and if you can get Oli above you there's not much he can do. Dair and Nair are really his only options getting back on the ground and they're not that great. WAC is their friend so don't be surprised to hear 40 whistles in a row before they're on the ground again.

The way you're going to win this match up is gimping Olimar which is obviously everyone's best option. Since Lucario can string together his attacks so nicely and semi WoP Oli it can easily turn the tables. Usually a Fair > Fair > Dair off stage works wonders.

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you won't be gimping Olimar with fairs without the Olimar first DIing the move incredibly trashy. Just from experience, using AS to bait the airdodge and then dairing him before he can DJ uair you is the most practical way to gimp Olimar. Ending fair strings with a dair is a better way at trying to ensure he's sent as far away as possible, but with his small frame it's hard to land it.

nair>usmash looks like a reliable set up for Olimar too, as it can catch landing frames for a legit combo into usmash.

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skimming through this discussion, there's not one word on how lucario should approach this matchup, just what olimar can and will do.

Can we get some word on your preferred attempts at approaching Olimar? How to net the kill? Traps? Anything? Right now the entire discussion is just what Olimars do, not what Olimars do to Lucarios.

I know this discussion wants to end but I'm not ready to do that.

Approaches. One of the few matches where I actually endorse SHAD>dair. Empty shorthops as a whole are super punishable by usmash or pivot grab, so make sure you give yourself some cover when approaching. Fair>dair is, sadly, the best approach I've found in this matchup. That's not saying a lot. I really dislike dairing opponents shields but it does pressure Olimar. Fair>DJ>dair>nair is an option but I personally don't like using dair>nair after the dair is shielded, especially a character with legit oos options against it (usmash) It works, but it's not perfect or guaranteed, and still punished. Due to this I certainly feel like Luc's disadvantage in this match is heavily weighted on the idea that Luc's approaches are all dangerous in this match. sh fair>ff AD into grab or utilt (I prefer utilt in this situation, as Olimars rarely sit in their shields) works but you're still landing behind him without cover, which means a free usmash if anticipated. Exercise caution with all of your approaches.

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Honestly getting inside him and pressuring is about as good as you can do. I know Lucci is bad at it and blah blah blah but Oli just shuts him down from midrange so silly it's ridiculous. I like jabbing a lot in this matchup. You can try adding FF Nair>Jab along the same lines as FF Airdodge>Utilt, with the same problems although it gives you a little more cover on landing.

How to net the kill... obviously you want to gimp him as much as possible. For once trying to keep the fighting near the edge works in your favor here, although watch it if he has a blue out, as they make his fthrow and bthrow into killers. If you don't gimp him your best bet is baiting a mistimed whistle into an fsmash or uair (because you sure as hell can't expect to land an fsmash when he's on the ground.)

It's worth pointing out that landing an Aura Sphere is more plausible than you might think if the Oli starts being predictable with his side-b usage.

Helpful tips:

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olimar wins.

his up-tilt goes through your dair, his grabs out ranges your f-smash, and pikmin throw beats out any sized AS.

*sits back and waits for RK joker to say DT is good against pikmin throw*

keep in mind if you CP an olimar to frigate his pluck rate of yellow and purple pikmin will greatly increase. and these two are probably his best pikmin IMO. you really have to stay on your toes in this match up. 60-40

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I just got done playing xxPatgxx for a good long while and I'd say that this match-up is 55-45 in Olimar's favor.

Just to knock this whole stage discussion in the right direction, I'm going to agree with the person before me who said that counterpicking is more about emphasising your strengths in the match-up while closing off opportunity to strike your weakness, not where Olimar is worst at.

With that being said, I'm going to say that Lucario would probably do best on Orpheon Frigate. The reason why I say this is because the key to Lucario winning is actually being aggressive on Olimar. On the first part of frigate, you have that platform to camp under. Even though it's not the greatest, it does off your some cover from Olimar's Side B and a possible landing zone for recovery should Olimar choose to instant ledgehog you with his tether (he does NOT have to be offstage to do this and it is completely lagless). The other side of Frigate allows you to continually push Olimar offstage because it has no ledge for him to grab on to. The fact that it rises and falls is only going to make things worse for an Olimar trying to recover.

The second part of Frigates offers both of you platforms when trying to recover but neither of you should really be getting too much use out of them because of your knockback angles. The downward slope makes it harder for Olimar to land smash attacks and since Olimar will most likely camp from the center, you shouldn't have too much trouble exploiting that with your smash attacks or massive Aura Spheres.

As far as the match-up goes, Lucario cannot try to outcamp Olimar because it will never work. Olimar's Side B not only consumes your attack but it comes out a lot quicker and can be used in a manner that allows Olimar to hop over your Aura Spheres while still hitting Lucario. What you'll want to do is get a fully charged Aura Sphere to pressure Olimar so that you have an easier time getting him to change his position.

From approaching, I would reccomend Lucario using his Forward Air shorthopped because he should be able to retreat or launch an Aura Sphere if Olimar is trying to Pivot Grab or Forward Smash him in return. Be aware that if you get near Olimar, your roll is incredibly fast and can allow you to escape his attack before grabbing him and tossing him off the stage. Try not to get predictable with this approach. Remember that Lucario also has a good N-Air to knock off incoming pikmin as well as push any of Olimar's aerials out of the way.

For Olimar it's easiest for him to rack up damaging by using his Side B. Any other damage usually comes from punishing or early grabs in the grab. It is very difficult for Olimar to approach Lucario and even more difficult for him to punish one that stays in the air, but when he does its going to hurt. The main reason this match-up is in Olimar's favor is because of how quickly he can rack up damage and kill Lucario without putting himself at too much risk using long-ranged and powerful Smash Attacks. Its also very difficult for Lucario to KO Olimar.

I helped.

Stages:

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If Olimar doesn't ban Japes you should definitely go there.

If he does Frigate is still a legit choice.

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lets just say if the olimar doesnt ban rainbow cruise......

and quite frankly, its a good choice, i never said it was wrong, i never implied i was right, i was stating my previous experience so you, as a lucario community, can come up with something that might better the match up

also, as stated, frigate is a nice choice, but i hope you like yellows and purples.

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japes and frigate sound like good choices no japes and frigate aren't good choices

In other words, you can either duke it out on a stage that hurts Oli more than you (RC), or go with a comfortable CP that gives you some slight edges (Frigate, Japes), it's up to you. Also there's been theory that Pictochat could do well, but I'll let you decide.
Don't do Luigi's, or any stage that allows him to outcamp/outcontrol you severely (like he already doesn't enough).

Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm on a roll.