Lucas on the new tier list...

[lil cj]

Just found the new tier list
Some characters moved up,some moved down...Lucas is one of those characters that have moved down

Below you’ll find the second official SBR-B Brawl tier list. The previous tier list can be found here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028

A tier list is an ordered list of the characters based on their competitive value in the current metagame. It basically shows which characters are currently doing well in tournaments. Note that player skill is more important than character choice and match ups can overcome tier differences, but at an equal player level a bottom tier character will usually have a very tough time against a top tier character. This list will probably change over time, as Brawl is still relatively young and the Melee tiers were debated until the very end. So don’t give up on your character just yet, maybe you’re the one to make a difference!

The list was created by the SBR-B after much heated discussion. For the votes, we had members place the characters in groups from 1 to 15 (15 being the highest) and took the average score for each character. The split was decided by looking at the gaps. As the person supervising it, I’d like to thank all SBR-B members who contributed.

SS Tier
Meta Knight 15.00

S Tier
Snake 13.91

A Tier
Falco 13.03
King Dedede 12.94
Mr. Game & Watch 12.50
Marth 12.09
Diddy Kong 11.94

B Tier
Wario 11.47
R.O.B. 11.38
Lucario 10.94
Olimar 10.94

C Tier
Pikachu 10.34
Kirby 10.16
Donkey Kong 10.06
Ice Climbers 9.59

D Tier
Zero Suit Samus 8.88
Toon Link 8.47
Pit 8.44
Peach 8.16
Wolf 7.91

E Tier
Luigi 7.41
Zelda 7.03
Bowser 6.91
Fox 6.66
Sheik 6.44
Ike 5.91

F Tier
Mario 4.56
Lucas 4.50
Ness 4.50
Samus 4.41
Sonic 4.16
Pokémon Trainer 3.94
Yoshi 3.66

G Tier
Link 2.28
Jigglypuff 2.03
Ganondorf 1.88
Captain Falcon 1.63



This chart shows the score each character got when the votes were averaged. The divisions were placed so that:

1. Gaps between tiers were relatively large, and
2. The spread within tiers was relatively small.

The particular number of tiers isn't special--that's just how the votes ended up. The majority of us believed that using a smaller number of tiers would be misleading, given the results.

Expect the next tier list on June 5th.

--- CHANGES ---

TIER LIST PLACE MOVEMENT

SS Tier

Meta Knight
=
1. to 1.

S Tier

Snake
=
2. to 2.

A Tier

Falco
+ 2
5. to 3.


King Dedede
- 1
3. to 4.


Mr. Game & Watch
- 1
4. to 5.


Marth
+ 1
7. to 6.


Diddy Kong
+ 4
11. to 7.

B Tier

Wario
=
8. to 8.


R.O.B.
- 3
6. to 9.


Lucario
- 1 / - 2 (ties with Olimar for 10/11th)
9. to 10./11.


Olimar
+ 7 / + 8 (ties with Lucario for 10/11th)
18. to 10./11.

C Tier

Pikachu
=
12. to 12.


Kirby
+ 1
14. to 13.


Donkey Kong
- 4
10. to 14.


Ice Climbers
- 2
13. to 15.

D Tier

Zero Suit Samus
+ 5
21. to 16.


Toon Link
=
17. to 17.


Pit
- 3
15. to 18.


Peach
+ 5
24. to 19.


Wolf
- 4
16. to 20.

E Tier

Luigi
+ 2
23. to 21.


Zelda
- 2
20. to 22.


Bowser
- 1
22. to 23.


Fox
- 5
19. to 24.

:shiek:
Sheik
+ 1
26 to 25


Ike
- 1
25 to 26

F Tier

Mario
+ 2
29. to 27.


Lucas
- 1 / - 2 (ties with Ness for 28/29th)
27. to 28./29.


Ness
= / -1 (ties with Lucas for 28/29th)
28. to 28./29.


Samus
+ 1
31. to 30.


Sonic
+ 2
33. to 31.


Pokémon Trainer
- 2
30. to 32.


Yoshi
- 1
32. to 33.

G Tier

Link
+ 2
36. to 34.


Jigglypuff
- 1
34. to 35.


Ganondorf
- 1
35. to 36.


Captain Falcon
=
37. to 37.

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

I think quoting the whole thing was a little bit overkill... relevant parts only, please. With that said, I'm not surprised. It's only Mario that got ahead of Lucas and I don't mind that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

They came out with a new tier list? When was this? o_O

I get slightly depressed whenever I look at Lucas's location on the tier list. I vaguely recall a time when he was seen as decent. (This was probably before the grab-release fiasco happened.)

 

[PKNintendo]

Lucas is a plague to Ness. Seriously he's way high, and the SBR seriously tied him with Ness. TIED HIM! Considering Lucas different matchups, and results, they are not the same.

 

[x9whitey9x]

Well the fact that he has been poorly repped (no offense to those who have) must be a large factor in his drop. Add that to the fact that he has very little that is outstanding about him, and you have yourself a bottom third character.

 

[ZMan]

SBR isn't informed on Ness or Lucas. So that's why he is so low.

I'm still maining him though :D

 

[Neon Ness]

*applause* moved up.

Lucas and Ness tied is garbage. Now we're going to get more '09 nubs who ask "N355 or Luc4s? They r t3h same, so whihc 1 do u leik tink I shud use 2 win turnam1ntz?"

This is why a lot of people generally frown upon tier lists... they're so troublesome to deal with...

 

[Levitas]

SBR isn't as uninformed as you guys think. Also, they ranked Ness and lucas differently most of the time, it just happened that the differences in opinions happened to exactly cancel each other out.

 

[Dxt XXII]

This list is pretty accurate, and untill Lucas places better in tournies and gets a better rep, he's not moving up.

 

[Tyr_03]

I genuinly believe that Lucas is fundamentally a better character than Mario and possibly Ike as well.

 

[Judge Judy]

I genuinly believe that Lucas is fundamentally a better character than Mario and possibly Ike as well.

I'm sure the Mario and Ike boards feel the same way about Lucas. IDK, things could get ugly between high low characters and low mid characters.

 

[ToxiCrow]

I genuinly believe that Lucas is fundamentally a better character than Mario and possibly Ike as well.

there's no doubt in my mind that he isnt. he's just not winning at the moment.
and he dropped down one spot; it's not as bad as i thought it would be. you know, with him being dead last in the character rankings and all.

 

[Kraryo]

Out of all the low tiers, I think that Lucas has the most potential to move up to middle. We need more Lucases who can do his advanced recovery techniques well.

 

[ToxiCrow]

^^^^
he definetly is. i really dont think mario should be above him. i think he should still be top of low tier or bottom of E tier.
but potential doesnt mean anything unless you're using it

 

[lil cj]

Im starting to see Lucas mains Ive never seen before
Thats a good sign
I have an idea on how we can all get better with Lucas
For the rest of this month....the only character we use is Lucas
no secondaries at all...and even if we are going against one of Lucas' bad match ups
we still try our best to win and adapt during the match if we are losing

 

[ToxiCrow]

thats why i voted for you to be the most dedicated

 

[Luur3]

I smell a new years resolution

 

[Neon Ness]

I have an idea on how we can all get better with Lucas
For the rest of this month....the only character we use is Lucas
no secondaries at all...and even if we are going against one of Lucas' bad match ups
we still try our best to win and adapt during the match if we are losing

I wish I had seen this before I decided to take the next few months off from Lucas. 0_o That's a really good idea for people who find themselves using their secondaries more and more often.

 

[ZMan]

I genuinly believe that Lucas is fundamentally a better character than Mario and possibly Ike as well.

I personally would put Ike in the bottom five cause he's GUTTER TRASH but that's just me. Really Lucas should be in the low-mid of the mid tier but that's just me.

And why isn't mk banned everywhere if he has his own tier and has a perfect score?

 

[Neon Ness]

And why isn't mk banned everywhere if he has his own tier and has a perfect score?

Because banning a character is ridiculous? What about all the people who main Meta Knight and spent the last year or so putting effort into the character? That would all go straight down the drain.

There's no doubt he's the best, but we don't need no SBR handicap to make us feel better. We can deal.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

SBR isn't informed on Ness or Lucas. So that's why he is so low.

I'm still maining him though :D

That's not true. if that were true that would have to look at his tournament results, which are the worst on the game, and he would have ended up last or close to last.

*applause* moved up.

Lucas and Ness tied is garbage. Now we're going to get more '09 nubs who ask "N355 or Luc4s? They r t3h same, so whihc 1 do u leik tink I shud use 2 win turnam1ntz?"

This is why a lot of people generally frown upon tier lists... they're so troublesome to deal with...

i'd tell them neither anyone below C tier sucks.

SBR isn't as uninformed as you guys think. Also, they ranked Ness and lucas differently most of the time, it just happened that the differences in opinions happened to exactly cancel each other out.

what he said, Jesiah disagreed with the majority of the SBR. People were disagreeing and certain things cancelled each other out

I genuinly believe that Lucas is fundamentally a better character than Mario and possibly Ike as well.

Mario is better than Lucas

there's no doubt in my mind that he isnt. he's just not winning at the moment.
and he dropped down one spot; it's not as bad as i thought it would be. you know, with him being dead last in the character rankings and all.

lol based off tournament results, i was expecting like below falcon tbh.

Out of all the low tiers, I think that Lucas has the most potential to move up to middle. We need more Lucases who can do his advanced recovery techniques well.

i don't. i think mario has the most potential, then yoshi. He doesn't even have that bad of matchups against the top tiers and maybe, just MAYBE sonic... naahhhh lol.

^^^^
he definetly is. i really dont think mario should be above him. i think he should still be top of low tier or bottom of E tier.
but potential doesnt mean anything unless you're using it

nope mario is better, i was expecting ness to be higher than him as well.

Im starting to see Lucas mains Ive never seen before
Thats a good sign
I have an idea on how we can all get better with Lucas
For the rest of this month....the only character we use is Lucas
no secondaries at all...and even if we are going against one of Lucas' bad match ups
we still try our best to win and adapt during the match if we are losing

I've been doing this for like a month.

I personally would put Ike in the bottom five cause he's GUTTER TRASH but that's just me. Really Lucas should be in the low-mid of the mid tier but that's just me.

And why isn't mk banned everywhere if he has his own tier and has a perfect score?

no he's not. ike's is good he just has a bad recovery. if he had a better recovery he would easily shoot up the tier list.

the perfect score is based off the SBR. everyone though metaknight was the best character so they gave him a 15. you can look at the melee tier list and argue that both fox and marth should be banned seeing as how they both got 9.9

Because banning a character is ridiculous? What about all the people who main Meta Knight and spent the last year or so putting effort into the character? That would all go straight down the drain.

There's no doubt he's the best, but we don't need no SBR handicap to make us feel better. We can deal.

I think snake is better. MK is getting easier to deal with. Snake has more potential. As of now MK's metagame is pretty good, but if people keep playing with Snake they can get really creative with Snake. snake also has more **** matchups than MK. Neither Snake nor MK have a bad matchup.

 

[Tyr_03]

I'd be interested in knowing your reasoning behind believing Mario to be a better character than Lucas.

 

[ToxiCrow]

OK pink lets hear it. and if u say that mario is better because he can gimp lucas with his cape(which isnt a valid reason), i'll remove u from my friend roster =]

Spoiler

sarcasm

EDIT: ness higher than lucas? i'd like to hear ur reason for that too.
EDIT:2

Neither Snake nor MK have a bad matchup.

wrong. very wrong.
according to the snake boards, he has 4 disadvantages and on other match up charts that i dont want to look right now for has olimar at an advantage and dk at a slight advantage.
what are your beliefs based on??

 

[JigglyZelda003]

OK pink lets hear it. and if u say that mario is better because he can gimp lucas with his cape(which isnt a valid reason), i'll remove u from my friend roster =]

Spoiler

sarcasm

EDIT: ness higher than lucas? i'd like to hear ur reason for that too.
EDIT:2


wrong. very wrong.
according to the snake boards, he has 4 disadvantages and on other match up charts that i dont want to look right now for has olimar at an advantage and dk at a slight advantage.
what are your beliefs based on??

and other than that thing w/ DDD doesn't Mario have better matchups overall?

i think Ness at best is slightly better only for his air priority but i feel they are relatively even.

a slight disadvantage is not a bad matchup. its bad if its 70:30+ not 60:40-

 

[ToxiCrow]

True about the 70:30 60:40 thing..my bad, because i've even said that before
i can agree with ness being even, but not with him being better. and i think lucas is better off-stage then ness is.
i dont think mario's match up thread is finished and ours deffinetly isnt, so i wouldnt be able to tell who has better match ups

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

I'd be interested in knowing your reasoning behind believing Mario to be a better character than Lucas.

OK pink lets hear it. and if u say that mario is better because he can gimp lucas with his cape(which isnt a valid reason), i'll remove u from my friend roster =]

Spoiler

sarcasm

EDIT: ness higher than lucas? i'd like to hear ur reason for that too.
EDIT:2


wrong. very wrong.
according to the snake boards, he has 4 disadvantages and on other match up charts that i dont want to look right now for has olimar at an advantage and dk at a slight advantage.
what are your beliefs based on??

snake has only one bad matchup at the most and that is D3. the matchup isn't even that bad. he can just CG him. falco isn't a bad matchup. anyone else that may be can be argued as being fairly even. falco gets ***** by snake once snake is above 40%. crawling under lasers is too good. falco is light. he can't kill worth crap. snake is heavy. he can kill easily. Olimar is a good camper. he just and has good grab combos at low percent. he can camp really well as well. granades and mine placement limits olimars campiness. it's failry even. snake is not at a disadvantage. D3 is his worse matchup and that's like 55:45 for D3. MK has like 55:45 against snake in snakes favor. they're equal.

actually i never stated that ness was better than lucas. i just stated that he may be above him in the next tier list, due to lucas' poor tourney performance lately.

The reasons i say mario is better than lucas are because the only thing that i know lucas can do better than mario is recover. mario has better setups for all his moves, his projectile (fire ball) is equal to or better than lucas' pk fire. grab game is better than ours. his combo game is better than ours. he has more combo potential at low percents. his kill moves are just as good as ours. he can gimp characters better than we can. his spacing game is barely worse than ours. he can space pretty well with fire balls and bairs. his jab setups are better do to his grab being faster than ours. we have more priority and disjointed hitboxes. our moves are faster. we have more range on some of our moves. his ability to punish is better than ours. he has better matchups, besides D3, which you can argue out pretty well if you feel like it. I'm not speaking like he's way ahead of Lucas, but just based off our game to his, we aren't as good as him, though we are pretty close.

oh and toxicrow, i can't say that because that is based off matchups between two characters. if i used that logic i could say that yoshi is better than wario.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Olimar is a good camper. he just and has good grab combos at low percent. he can camp really well as well. =]

I'm not speaking like he's way ahead of Lucas, but just based off our game to his, we aren't as good as him, though we are pretty close.

oh and toxicrow, i can't say that because that is based off matchups between two characters. if i used that logic i could say that yoshi is better than wario.

fair enough. i cant say i agree with everything u said, but i quoted what i thought was fair enough.
but i'm done with that arguement

 

[Tyr_03]

You make a fair enough argument Pink Fresh. I still disagree. I can acknowledge that Mario has good combo ability for racking up damage but I find that he has a difficult time killing other than gimps which can generally be avoided by the majority of the cast without much difficulty. Lucas's Dair combo gives him very handy kill potential and he has plenty of methods for racking up damage. I'd put their spacing capabilities at simliar levels and Mario's recovery is not very effective which is a big reason why I'd put him below Lucas. But the difference is not large so I can definetly see the argument for the other way.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Lucas may seem better than Ness because of his attacks, but they are tied mainly because theire weight size is the same and their attacks actually balance each other out.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

fair enough. i cant say i agree with everything u said, but i quoted what i thought was fair enough.
but i'm done with that arguement

it's pretty close, but i don't really think it's worth arguing who is better low tier character. it's not like we're going to do much at tournaments that often anyway, unless we are talking about low tier tournaments.

You make a fair enough argument Pink Fresh. I still disagree. I can acknowledge that Mario has good combo ability for racking up damage, but I find that he has a difficult time killing other than gimps which can generally be avoided by the majority of the cast without much difficulty. Lucas's Dair combo gives him very handy kill potential and he has plenty of methods for racking up damage. I'd put their spacing capabilities at simliar levels and Mario's recovery is not very effective which is a big reason why I'd put him below Lucas. But the difference is not large, so I can definetly see the argument for the other way.

the two things i underlined were the things i agreed with the most. his other kill methods are all smashes. Fsmash, and usmash are pretty good. They require either prediction or a setup. we have better setups for our kill moves, which are more powerful, making it easier to kill onstage. his dsmash could be considered a kill move, but it is usually diminished, because it is often used to punish.

The argument could be carried out either way. they are pretty d*** close. i don't think anybody here is arguing the whole ness thing. TBH i think we are stuck at our spot on the tier list. Ike is a ridculously good CP character, so he'll stay midtier. mario probably won't drop, due to many people's success with him, and him constantly discovering AT's. ness has potential to pass us. i don't think anyone else will. maybe yoshi if people actually pay attention to him. he is so underrated.

 

[xoxokev]

I'm sad to say that I disagree with you, ToxiCrow. Mario has two very good moves in his arsenal that can be used to gimp Lucas and Ness. F.L.U.D.D. and Cape. Try it yourself. Gimp a friend who mains Lucas/Ness. You'll find it very easy. The best way to overcome the cape is to recover from above. But even then, you can't always recover from above... Also, if you count the Fireball, Mario then has three good gimping moves. His Fireball can steal your second jump, and can also cancel out PKT...

EDIT: that was for this statement

^^^^
he definetly is. i really dont think mario should be above him. i think he should still be top of low tier or bottom of E tier.
but potential doesnt mean anything unless you're using it

 

[Judge Judy]

Best thing Lucas has going for him while recovering against Mario is his zap jump which allows him to recover high enough where it's difficult for Mario to reach him.

 

[ToxiCrow]

I'm sad to say that I disagree with you, ToxiCrow. Mario has two very good moves in his arsenal that can be used to gimp Lucas and Ness. F.L.U.D.D. and Cape. Try it yourself. Gimp a friend who mains Lucas/Ness. You'll find it very easy. The best way to overcome the cape is to recover from above. But even then, you can't always recover from above... Also, if you count the Fireball, Mario then has three good gimping moves. His Fireball can steal your second jump, and can also cancel out PKT...
EDIT: that was for this statement

?
i said i' was done with that arguement, but now i hav to respond

fireball as an edgeguard can be absorbed by Psi magnet. drop down a bit (since his fireballs travel at an angle) and use PKT to recover.
just because mario can gimp lucas doesnt mean he's better because PKT can also gimp mario. each time u hit with the begining of PKT it does pretty good knockback. and in theory, mario and lucas can gimp anyone whose name isnt g+w (i said in theory; keep ur bra on; thats not directed at you xoxokev, its to anyone reading).
i just recently hav been playing mario so i dont know much about him; but from what i see now, lucas has more KO moves on stage that mario does. lucas forward smash also outranges mario's.
i think Lucas' tilts may hav more range than mario's (except maybe down)
about fireball: Psi-magnet. "but wait: mario can approach with a sh-fireball and then attack when he get's close!"....by that time, chances are u absorbed atleast "A" fireball. roll or jump out of the way. maybe u can even drop psi-magnet and zap him.
lucas nair can combo into almost any of his ground moves: jab, utilt, forward smash, ftilt. finish him off with a forward smash after a few nairs.
lucas>mario.
EDIT: wavebounce to magnet pull is also good for recovery.
+lucas also outcamps mario

now i'm finished for good on the mario lucas topic.

 

[Judge Judy]

just because mario can gimp lucas doesnt mean he's better because PKT can also gimp mario.

Mario can cape PKT.

each time u hit with the begining of PKT it does pretty good knockback. and in theory, mario and lucas can gimp anyone whose name isnt g+w (i said in theory; keep ur bra on).
i just recently hav been playing mario so i dont know much about him; but from what i see now, lucas has more KO moves on stage that mario does. lucas forward smash also outranges mario's.

Mario's Fsmash has more range than Lucas's when stutter stepped, and "perfect" (sweetspotted and tilted up) Fsmashes kill early.

about fireball: Psi-magnet. "but wait: mario can approach with a sh-fireball and then attack when he get's close!"....by that time, chances are u absorbed atleast "A" fireball. roll or jump out of the way. maybe u can even drop psi-magnet and zap him.

Mario can atk at the same time a fireball hits if he sets it up properly; you can mess him up and prevent him from camping with fireballs, but you can't really stop him from approaching with them altogether.

lucas nair can combo into almost any of his ground moves: jab, utilt, forward smash, ftilt. finish him off with a forward smash after a few nairs.

Think about Mario's aerials though; Mario's aerials have virtually no lag (except Fair), have great follow-ups, great at juggling, and some actually have true combos. Also, Mario's Utilt lock is good and his Utilt true combos into his Up B.

EDIT: wavebounce to magnet pull is also good for recovery.

It gives extra distance, but it isn't hard to intercept and it can be caped.

+lucas also outcamps mario

Lucas can't camp Mario at all, at best it's a stalemate.

 

[Neon Ness]

Hoo boy.

I know we're supposed to defend the psychic children under all circumstances, but... > . :3 I can't even read this junk anymore, it's turning into a who's better fight, which is going nowhere because Marios will say he's better, and we're gonna say the MOTHER kids are better (for the most part).

Let's change the topic... please...

Where's Livan when you need him!?

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Let's change the topic... please...

Where's Livan when you need him!?

lol.
10livans

 

[JigglyZelda003]

this sounds like some of the Foxies on the Fox boards

"were better than Bowser, why is he higher than us!?"

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

I was reading that thread earlier.

it doesn't really matter to most mid and low tiers, because we usually have at least 1 hard counter that makes us unviable when going to a tournament. it's even funnier when people argue things and are not into competitive smash and/or do not go to tournaments. That is kinda why tier lists are made.

 

[Irsic]

this sounds like some of the Foxies on the Fox boards

"were better than Bowser, why is he higher than us!?"

Amen to that.

 

[xoxokev]

Sorry ToxiCrow, I didn't realize you were done with the argument. I accidentally posted without reading page 2 please forgive me lol