soccerdude7200
Smash Journeyman
k. i agree with NintenJoe.
so i say 50:50
so i say 50:50
-
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Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy
- Thread starter Levitas
- Start date
heytallman
CTALL
OK so I played a few Links at a tournament yesterday. I'm starting to see 50/50 in this matchup.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
XD.
I am laughing off my seat. I have nothing personal against Link, but the way Tyr worded it.
soccerdude7200
Smash Journeyman
sooo
50/50 then??
50/50 then??
The reason I don't post in this topic anymore is because it ends up being this futile argument. I'd post my numbers, but people want me to explain and I don't feel like typing. <_<
I don't play Lucas for this match-up anyways, I just play Fox. @_@ It's just easier.
I don't play Lucas for this match-up anyways, I just play Fox. @_@ It's just easier.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
eh if i really wanted to win this matchup i'd just pick falco or DDD
now... i think kirby's bair is too good 10-90 for him
mario has fireballs so he auto loses 100-0
sonic is too fast 0-100
zelda has an absorbable projectile and we DI out of her moves 100-0
shiek's recovery sucls 70-30
welp... done with the matchup discussion...
wait i forgot jiggz! no one plays her 0-100. ok now we're done.
sticky this s***
/thread
now... i think kirby's bair is too good 10-90 for him
mario has fireballs so he auto loses 100-0
sonic is too fast 0-100
zelda has an absorbable projectile and we DI out of her moves 100-0
shiek's recovery sucls 70-30
welp... done with the matchup discussion...
wait i forgot jiggz! no one plays her 0-100. ok now we're done.
sticky this s***
/thread
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
I honestly don't have any right to do this anymore, but here I go.
Let's talk Kirby.
Let's talk Kirby.
Levitas
the moon
blackbelt, did you pm anyone yet?
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
heytallman
CTALL
I play a lot with a guy who mains Kirby, but I have only ever played his Kirby once LOL
He tells me he doesn't like the matchup. That's all I really know.
I played a Kirby in pools once, but the time limit was five minutes, I ran down the clock near the end to win lol.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help on this.
He tells me he doesn't like the matchup. That's all I really know.
I played a Kirby in pools once, but the time limit was five minutes, I ran down the clock near the end to win lol.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help on this.
ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
I have a friend who uses Kirby and I beat him regularly, but my skill level is high enough above his that I'm not sure if it's the matchup or just me. And he loves Final Cutter. <_<
AFAIK Kirby can't force us to approach. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I can't think of anything Kirby can do that beats camping. PK Fire + tilts = win?
AFAIK Kirby can't force us to approach. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I can't think of anything Kirby can do that beats camping. PK Fire + tilts = win?
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
Well...I'm thinking the sexy Bair Kirby has might beat most forms of camping...but I don't know...
F-haru 1952
Smash Rookie
I play against a good Kirby every so often. I find approaching incredibly hard, cause if I try and get in I'll just eat a bair (or fair) to the face, and IIRC Kirby's bair can destroy the PK Fire... maybe. If you do stay in close, jab combo and ftilt are great. I don't nair Kirby because he's small... dair works nicely. I'd say the matchup is close.
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
I play against who I believe is one of the smartest players on the west coast, MogX. His kirby has beaten people like SK92, mikeHAZE, BarDulL, and Mike Hey in tournament. Many consider him the best Kirby on the West Coast, and if you know who tImmy is, an influential Kirby player on the Kirby boards, MogX beat him in doubles. I'd say I have a handle on the match-up and I'd say I'm even against him if I play with absolutely no mistakes.
(Sorry for the long-winded introduction, but I feel its necessary to present evidence that you have at least some knowledge of what you're about to say. You can't judge how good a person is until you can list who you've beaten and who they've beaten. If it sounded arrogant, that was not the intention. I don't think I'm good, I play Lucas.)
From the beginning of the match, to the very end, as any character you must watch out for Kirby's grab. Any good Kirby will grab you, down-throw you, up air afterwards, re-grab, etc until they combo you to around 40%. This is almost inescapable and your best bet is to Smash DI or normal DI up and away from him. Kirby's grab range is disjointed and very long and is also very quick. If he is near you on the ground, this will most likely be the approach of choice.
Grabs are safe immediately out of shield, so at your early percentages if you rush into a shielding Kirby, I'd imagine you're going to get grabbed. Also, since most character approaches involve a character running in, dash cancelling into a shield, do not run in to intercept a running Kirby. It's best to jab then jab-cancel into a retreat, or stand your ground and f-tilt, and hopefully you spaced it properly so that the very tip hits, Kirby shields and is pushed back a tiny bit, and he can't grab you.
In the mid percentages, Kirbys will still try to get you into a grab for the d-throw damage (no combo after with proper di) and they have many options to do so. If you find yourself face to face with a Kirby in close range, your best bet is to jab. You can also dtilt to fsmash. The dtilt option should be done at later percentages and sparingly because usually it's a surprise KO more so than a spacing tactic. But in the early to mid percentages, when a Kirby is in the air avoid approaching from directly below him. Nothing you can do will stop his dair, and it auto-cancels, so a Kirby can dair to ftilt, or dair to grab, or even dair to fsmash and kill you early if you do not DI and you're caught off guard.
In the higher percentages, Kirby's are usually more vulerable than you because of their light bodies. So, a smarter Kirby will space and be in the air where they have more of an advantage. Be careful, because a Kirby on the ground may run at you, but instead of any ground attack, they'll RAR into a bair and you'll be tempted to attack but best just retreat and PKFire.
Although Kirby's are strong in the aerial department, their horizontal mobility is nothing when compared to characters like Wario or Game and Watch. To travel the same distance horizontally, they'd have to expend jumps. And since their best horizontal aerial approach with Kirby is bair, all they can do is slowly inch their way toward you. Abuse this by jumping up and intercepting them with one PKFire. Do not PKFire them in the air more than once unless they expend all their jumps. There are 5. Count them.
Bair does not come out as fast as you think. There is a notable start-up lag to the move, so a Kirby already dedicated themselves to the move after completing it. So if you expect a bair, just stay away, and the second comes out, you have a good half a second window to punish with a fair (rising into the air, never falling), or an uair which cancels out all of Kirby's aerials save his nair (which they should never use) or his dair. If you can predict how they'll land by counting their jumps, punish that with a nair by waiting for them. But watch out, Kirby's like to sneak in one last bair before they land. Wait for the complete landing, then nair.
Punishing Kirbys is tough. Kirby's have excellent tools for spacing, and sometimes all they need to do is rely on all the moves that outprioritize yours. Your best bet is to follow their patterns. Know when a Kirby lands, and memorize the flow of their "combos." Kirby's lead into a fsmash after their so run just far enough to avoid the follow up fsmash, then counter with a fsmash of your own. Or, if you're brave, wait for the last hit of the dair, then uair. The kill potential of uair is understated and it works great to get a kirby away from you. Ftilt helps on a kirby approaching from the ground, and rising fairs, never falling, always serve as good punishers when a kirby is about to finish an aerial in front of you.
That's it. I have more but I have to study for finals. Peace.
(Sorry for the long-winded introduction, but I feel its necessary to present evidence that you have at least some knowledge of what you're about to say. You can't judge how good a person is until you can list who you've beaten and who they've beaten. If it sounded arrogant, that was not the intention. I don't think I'm good, I play Lucas.)
From the beginning of the match, to the very end, as any character you must watch out for Kirby's grab. Any good Kirby will grab you, down-throw you, up air afterwards, re-grab, etc until they combo you to around 40%. This is almost inescapable and your best bet is to Smash DI or normal DI up and away from him. Kirby's grab range is disjointed and very long and is also very quick. If he is near you on the ground, this will most likely be the approach of choice.
Grabs are safe immediately out of shield, so at your early percentages if you rush into a shielding Kirby, I'd imagine you're going to get grabbed. Also, since most character approaches involve a character running in, dash cancelling into a shield, do not run in to intercept a running Kirby. It's best to jab then jab-cancel into a retreat, or stand your ground and f-tilt, and hopefully you spaced it properly so that the very tip hits, Kirby shields and is pushed back a tiny bit, and he can't grab you.
In the mid percentages, Kirbys will still try to get you into a grab for the d-throw damage (no combo after with proper di) and they have many options to do so. If you find yourself face to face with a Kirby in close range, your best bet is to jab. You can also dtilt to fsmash. The dtilt option should be done at later percentages and sparingly because usually it's a surprise KO more so than a spacing tactic. But in the early to mid percentages, when a Kirby is in the air avoid approaching from directly below him. Nothing you can do will stop his dair, and it auto-cancels, so a Kirby can dair to ftilt, or dair to grab, or even dair to fsmash and kill you early if you do not DI and you're caught off guard.
In the higher percentages, Kirby's are usually more vulerable than you because of their light bodies. So, a smarter Kirby will space and be in the air where they have more of an advantage. Be careful, because a Kirby on the ground may run at you, but instead of any ground attack, they'll RAR into a bair and you'll be tempted to attack but best just retreat and PKFire.
Although Kirby's are strong in the aerial department, their horizontal mobility is nothing when compared to characters like Wario or Game and Watch. To travel the same distance horizontally, they'd have to expend jumps. And since their best horizontal aerial approach with Kirby is bair, all they can do is slowly inch their way toward you. Abuse this by jumping up and intercepting them with one PKFire. Do not PKFire them in the air more than once unless they expend all their jumps. There are 5. Count them.
Bair does not come out as fast as you think. There is a notable start-up lag to the move, so a Kirby already dedicated themselves to the move after completing it. So if you expect a bair, just stay away, and the second comes out, you have a good half a second window to punish with a fair (rising into the air, never falling), or an uair which cancels out all of Kirby's aerials save his nair (which they should never use) or his dair. If you can predict how they'll land by counting their jumps, punish that with a nair by waiting for them. But watch out, Kirby's like to sneak in one last bair before they land. Wait for the complete landing, then nair.
Punishing Kirbys is tough. Kirby's have excellent tools for spacing, and sometimes all they need to do is rely on all the moves that outprioritize yours. Your best bet is to follow their patterns. Know when a Kirby lands, and memorize the flow of their "combos." Kirby's lead into a fsmash after their so run just far enough to avoid the follow up fsmash, then counter with a fsmash of your own. Or, if you're brave, wait for the last hit of the dair, then uair. The kill potential of uair is understated and it works great to get a kirby away from you. Ftilt helps on a kirby approaching from the ground, and rising fairs, never falling, always serve as good punishers when a kirby is about to finish an aerial in front of you.
That's it. I have more but I have to study for finals. Peace.
ZMan
Smash Master
I've foughten Demised, who is by far the best and coolest Kirby player I've ever played. With that being said, I don't kremeber what to do in this matchup.
mikeHAZE
Smash Legend
t1mmy sucks lmao
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
get outta here Haze, lmao.
Edit: now that I think about it, you show up whenever you're mentioned. Like some kind of Betelgeuse
Edit: now that I think about it, you show up whenever you're mentioned. Like some kind of Betelgeuse
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Hmmm... I haven't really played many good Lucas', though I beat a decent one in Dayton and beat the living crap out of my GF's bro's Lucas. I have no tournament credentials, and can't say I've beaten anyone awesome, but hey, I do know my Kirby pretty well. (Sorry, after Cheeri's intro, I felt I had to do one.)
Anyway... Most of what Cheri said is true. However, there are some things to note:
-Lucas gets hit pretty hard by Kirby's throw combos. Don't get grabbed.
-I'm fairly certain Bair goes through PK Fire, though I could be wrong.
-Nair actually autocancels and can lead into Ftilt, Dtilt, jab, or Fsmash, or a grab. However, you probably still won't see this much because frankly, it's not that great.
-Dair>footstool ***** Lucas' recovery. In fact, Kirby will **** Lucas offstage, and if you have to resort to your PKT, be VERY careful, because you're pretty much asking to be gimped.
-With bad DI, or if you get hit with the last hit, Kirby's DA can be followed by a Fsmash, though truthfully, if we used a DA, it was probably an accident.
-If you get hit by a Ftilt, make sure you don't get hit by 3 more. Seriously, walking forward and chaining 2-3 Ftilts works way more often than it should.
-Fair is probably your best aerial against Kirby, since I think it's the only one that outranges our Bair.
-Dair onstage can follow into just about anything.
-Bair>Utilt>Bair etc. is a combo that we enjoy employing for as long as you'll let us make it work.
-Bair will be Kirby's primary OoS option.
-Make sure you're always aware of Kirby's options. In almost any given situation, a Kirby player has a vast number of options open, and it seems people always forget about the lesser used ones, like stone, Hammer, FC, Inhale, Dtilt, Dsmash, etc. and get caught off guard by them. For example, too many people expect a Bair every time Kirby has his back to you and get pivot grabbed or hammered. Basically, stay vigilant.
Rereading this, I realize I gave absolutely ****ty advice, but oh well. It's 1 AM and I don't know this matchup, so meh. *johns*
Anyway... Most of what Cheri said is true. However, there are some things to note:
-Lucas gets hit pretty hard by Kirby's throw combos. Don't get grabbed.
-I'm fairly certain Bair goes through PK Fire, though I could be wrong.
-Nair actually autocancels and can lead into Ftilt, Dtilt, jab, or Fsmash, or a grab. However, you probably still won't see this much because frankly, it's not that great.
-Dair>footstool ***** Lucas' recovery. In fact, Kirby will **** Lucas offstage, and if you have to resort to your PKT, be VERY careful, because you're pretty much asking to be gimped.
-With bad DI, or if you get hit with the last hit, Kirby's DA can be followed by a Fsmash, though truthfully, if we used a DA, it was probably an accident.
-If you get hit by a Ftilt, make sure you don't get hit by 3 more. Seriously, walking forward and chaining 2-3 Ftilts works way more often than it should.
-Fair is probably your best aerial against Kirby, since I think it's the only one that outranges our Bair.
-Dair onstage can follow into just about anything.
-Bair>Utilt>Bair etc. is a combo that we enjoy employing for as long as you'll let us make it work.
-Bair will be Kirby's primary OoS option.
-Make sure you're always aware of Kirby's options. In almost any given situation, a Kirby player has a vast number of options open, and it seems people always forget about the lesser used ones, like stone, Hammer, FC, Inhale, Dtilt, Dsmash, etc. and get caught off guard by them. For example, too many people expect a Bair every time Kirby has his back to you and get pivot grabbed or hammered. Basically, stay vigilant.
Rereading this, I realize I gave absolutely ****ty advice, but oh well. It's 1 AM and I don't know this matchup, so meh. *johns*
Levitas
the moon
That is completely justified.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
If you feel you must.
MK26
Smash Master
I felt like contributing, until i realized that i know nothing of teh matchup
Even though my brother basically mains Lucas. -_-
Uhh...rock beats out PK TUNDAH!
PK fire is annoying when i feel like floating around
f-throw combos shouldnt work, but we have a million different improvisations that can
Kirbies like grabs and grabbing...and grab combos
Watch out for bair and u-tilt
I'd say 50-50, maybe 55-45 in kirby's favour
Even though my brother basically mains Lucas. -_-
Uhh...rock beats out PK TUNDAH!
PK fire is annoying when i feel like floating around
f-throw combos shouldnt work, but we have a million different improvisations that can
Kirbies like grabs and grabbing...and grab combos
Watch out for bair and u-tilt
I'd say 50-50, maybe 55-45 in kirby's favour
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
People should read.
[/cocky]
[/cocky]
Levitas
the moon
people should say fthrow when they mean fthrow.
I don't know anything about this matchup.
I don't know anything about this matchup.
Dxt XXII
Smash Journeyman
I fight kirby all the time. His fsmash punishes easy. Ftilt is very important for spacing. Nair can punish laggy moves, but should not be spammed. It's dangerous to chase kirby off the edge, so only do so when you are sure you can pull off the gimp. Don't get grabbed at low %. His grab combos can do 30-40%.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
this thread died. nobody cares about the remaining matchups.
FireKirby7
Smash Lord
I've noticed. :/
Mmac
Smash Lord
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4383/matchupchartv3bt2.png
I updated the template to the design of my better Matchup Charts, and to the new Tier List
If you guys still want to finish it...
I updated the template to the design of my better Matchup Charts, and to the new Tier List
If you guys still want to finish it...
ToxiCrow
Smash Ace
we need to update this thread
heytallman
CTALL
Let's do Zero Suit Samus. Personally, I think this one is in Lucas' favor, some of her setups deal with dsmash/stun gun, which Lucas can absorb. Side B is a beast move though, has sick range. Her grabs can be punished, and her recovery gimped. I say 60 40 Lucas. But what do you guys think?
Kirby's a pretty tough match up because of his size and aerial spacing ability. It's not hard for him to dodge your PK Fires and go in for a grab. But you don't have many good approach options either so camping is a decent strategy as long as you space your PK Fires just right so that you can't be punished. Dair is difficult to get in because he's so short and can hit through it with Bair if you're not directly above him. Nair is difficult to get in because he can Ftilt or Utilt quickly to stop it. The best thing you have going for you is that he's light so if you can edgeguard with PKT1, you can get kills with it at decent percentages. Baiting an airdodge and going in for an Uair can be extremely useful as well for good percentage kills. Dair combos are going to be much harder to pull off because of his size. His throws are extremely damaging at low percentages so expect that he's going to be going for one and predict and punish. I don't like this matchup. I think it's Kirby's advantage but not by a lot. Mostly just annoying because a lot of your approach options are cut out.
ToxiCrow
Smash Ace
Tyr:
is edgeguarding with PKT1 that great of an option? i would think it'd be a little bit harder because he's small, can airdodge it then quickly get back on stage.
can his bair stop pkt?
+his bair is a good edgeguard i think.
is edgeguarding with PKT1 that great of an option? i would think it'd be a little bit harder because he's small, can airdodge it then quickly get back on stage.
can his bair stop pkt?
+his bair is a good edgeguard i think.
Well the issue is that's pretty much impossible to edgeguard with anything else. His Bair and even his Fair hit through most of what Lucas has and he can recover high or low if he wishes to avoid you. Plus there's that hammer to watch out for. PKT1 will work if you space it correctly with a loop. If he hits it with a Bair he can beat it but you can space with a tail whip moderately easily because Bair takes a second to come out. In anycase, with PKT1, even if you don't get a solid hit off, you can force him to recover high which gives you more options. Kirby doesn't have any great downward attacks since his Dair has so much lag. All he really can do is space fastfalled Bairs which if you shield you can punish, or try to land with an airdodge which you also can punish. With his aerial mobility this is really difficult though. In general he's just a pain in the *** to edgeguard. I find PKT1 to be the best option but only marginally. You shouldn't expect to get many edgeguard kills against Kirby. Works much the same way as Metaknight does. PKT1 is the best option only because nothing else really works. Atleast that's my experience.
ToxiCrow
Smash Ace
lets say u hop off the stage and try to hit him with ur f-air. does his inhale move come out fast enough to stop you??
ToxiCrow
Smash Ace
so whats ur opinion on the match up?
i'm going to say slight disadvantage because kirby edgeguards better, i think his forward smash might be stronger than our's his recovery is slightly better and i think overall kirby beats lucas.
how about you?
i'm going to say slight disadvantage because kirby edgeguards better, i think his forward smash might be stronger than our's his recovery is slightly better and i think overall kirby beats lucas.
how about you?
ZMan
Smash Master
I'd probably call Lucas vs. Kirby 45-55 Kirby.
Should we make a new matchup thread? I sent Blakcbelt an invitation to the OBR and a profile comment, but he hasn't been on since 12-21-08 >_>.
Should we make a new matchup thread? I sent Blakcbelt an invitation to the OBR and a profile comment, but he hasn't been on since 12-21-08 >_>.