Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[pyrotek7x7]

*pops in*

I don't play Lucas, but I'm a Mario main who has played a lot of matches against someone who DOES main Lucas.

Lucas has a lot more priority than Mario does in the air. With Lucas's down air, there's isn't much Mario can do when underneath (and a staple to Mario's game is uair combos), and Lucas's nair and bair are hard to get through too. I would suggest avoiding staying on the ground much as Lucas, the air is where he'll get the most advantage in this matchup.

PK fire, unless backed up with a lot of surprise and mind games, is extremely easy to reflect with the cape. Even in midair, because Lucas still shoots it straight out (unlike Ness), it's easy to counter.

What I would suggest for a Lucas player is to avoid PK thunder. Though harder to gimp than Ness's, a Mario with a fully charged FLUUD will send Lucas flying to his death. Even if Lucas does PK Thunder on the ground as an offensive move of some sort, Mario could still FLUUD him off the edge. If close enough, Lucas can also get caped, but that's a lot harder to pull off.


That's all I've got. I don't know much more about Lucas and don't have much more experience with him other than that one player.

 

[heytallman]

I don't know much about this matchup, only played a good Mario about twice. FLUDD is annoying, but you can gimp him as well, with PK thunder. Just don't try to hit him from the front when edgeguarding with this, because he can simply cape it, and it won't interfere with his recovery much. You can absorb fireballs, but be careful, as there's usually a Mario right behind it, running towards you. IIRC, Mario's nair has good priority, as to dair and uair. Getting in there can be a bit difficult, if I'm thinking correctly, but I really don't know too much.

If I had a guess, I would say somewhere around the area of about even.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

*waits for mario mains*

 

[ZMan]

We need to rediscuss Olimar and maybe MK (for some reason I thik this matchup s better than we think it is)

For Mario I just pretend he can't gimp, it works well.

I call it 50-50

 

[hippiedude92]

Lucas is effing annoying. Once you spike a Mario at high %s or if he used his second jump hes a dead man. For real. One thing if anything in this match up I don't try to airdodge Lucas's upsmash. I tried airdodging the upsmash 4 times, I got it by the upsmash 4 times in return for my stupidity. :[

IMO, I think Lucas has the upper hand when its ko options. PKT2, fsmash is friggin nasty as hell. If anything alot mario mains will underestimate lucas as ness (lol recovery trash), but with Zap jump his tether recovery hes slightly different to gimp. Netherless hes still easy not as easy as ness for gimping.

im seeing this as 55:45 in luca's. ill wait for mario mains to throw down

 

[Judge Judy]

I'd say the only real advantages Lucas has in this matchup are his disjointed hitboxes and air mobility. Lucas's zap jump can make him tricky to gimp, but otherwise his recovery isn't hard to gimp. PSI Magnet limits fireball spam a bit, but Mario can use them for setups and approaching. Lucas has higher KO power than Mario but his Fsmash is his most reliable one; Dsmash and Usmash are very telegraphed and very slow, compared to his Fsmash which he can setup with his Dair.

 

[Matt07]

Against Lucas. Hmm....

Cons
-Mario's FLUDD can mess with your PK Thunder, save Zap Jump, and use your tether more.
-Mario's aerials generally have more priority and are quicker. (Lucas' d-air however is insane O.o)
-Mario has good OoS options, that can cut through a lot of your approaches.
-Mario can reflect PK Fire.

Pros
+Mario's recovery is mediocre however Lucas has a few tools to gimp him, but be careful or else you might get gimped.
+Lucas has a ton of KO moves, and if Mario misses an up B out of shield at high percents, you can easily punish him with an u-smash.
+I think Lucas has more range than Mario on the ground, but I'm not sure in the air.

I think that's all I think about...

I'd say 55:45 in Mario's favour, or even. I dunno, it's a pretty close match imo.

 

[_clinton]

Against Lucas. Hmm....

Cons
-Mario's FLUDD can mess with your PK Thunder, save Zap Jump, and use your tether more.
-Mario's aerials generally have more priority and are quicker. (Lucas' d-air however is insane O.o)
-Mario has good OoS options, that can cut through a lot of your approaches.
-Mario can reflect PK Fire.

Pros
+Mario's recovery is mediocre however Lucas has a few tools to gimp him, but be careful or else you might get gimped.
+Lucas has a ton of KO moves, and if Mario misses an up B out of shield at high percents, you can easily punish him with an u-smash.
+I think Lucas has more range than Mario on the ground, but I'm not sure in the air.

I think that's all I think about...

I'd say 55:45 in Mario's favour, or even. I dunno, it's a pretty close match imo.

The 1st points are kind of stupid to talk about (I mean Lucas and Mario can both screw with the others recoveries to a point)

Lucas' Nair and Dair come out on Frame 3...His Uair comes out on frame 5...his Fair comes out on frame 4 and his Bair comes out on frame 14

Last I checked (It has been a while)
Mario's Uair and Nair come out on Frame 4...His Dair comes out on frame 5...his Bair comes out on frame 6 and his Fair comes out on frame 22...
Also may I ask how you think Mario has more Priority?

Also range wise I'm sure Lucas beats Mario both in the air and on the ground...

Lucas' air tricks with his PK Fire might lower the % of reflected Fire hitting him...

 

[Matt07]

Also may I ask how you think Mario has more Priority?

Mario's n-air has pretty good priority. Just mediocre range.

Also range wise I'm sure Lucas beats Mario both in the air and on the ground...

I think Mario's b-air outranges all of Lucas' aerial attacks.

 

[hippiedude92]

Stutter step Fsmash outranges Lucas on the ground. It might be a campfest because if Lucas approachs he will eat a FLudd, OOS upb. If Mario takes SH approach he'll eat like a ftilt (?)

Nair has a seemily weird priority. On the first couple of frames has a strong hitbox and ending frames have weakhitbox and lasts long and can get out of alot of juggles which makes it a good priority and combo breaker move.

Realistically speaking.. both humans inputting the same command move is pretty inhuman... and impossible.. but that's just in reality when matchups are theorycrafters with evidence and facts

Just sayin

 

[Levitas]

Mario's n-air has pretty good priority. Just mediocre range.





I think Mario's b-air outranges all of Lucas' aerial attacks.

I doubt that. Lucas's fair is actually disjointed and telegraphs well when retreating.

 

[Kanzaki]

I made this a while back for my friend, 3des. It's all against my Mario, and on Final Destination(he likes that stage..), never finished the video, but this is what I made of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1ZbUBoMhAA&feature=channel_page

He's a lot better now, but yea, that can give you guys an idea?


I play him a lot, and in my opinion, Lucas and Mario is pretty even for the most part. If the Lucas recovers smart, he won't be gimped, but it's still inevitable, bound to happen. PKFire is annoying, COULD be caped, but if it's short hopped, the pk fire pushes Lucas back, and when reflected, most likely won't hit him. I think it all comes down to the player and mindgames, the characters them selves are pretty even.

 

[S.D]

Watch out for FLUDD and cape.

Nair is great for pressuring as always and ftilt is a super handy move for this match. Mix up your recovery and use lots of Dair.

 

[3des]

well said Kanzaki;



and like he said; the videos are old;



personally it all depends on the players and the mindgames, but a decent lucas player should definitely avoid using pk thunder as a recovery...

 

[Judge Judy]

As far as range, Lucas does not have a lot more than Mario does, what he does have are a lot more disjointed hitboxes.

 

[_clinton]

As far as range, Lucas does not have a lot more than Mario does, what he does have are a lot more disjointed hitboxes.

To be fair unlike other characters with a lot of DJed hitboxes...Lucas at least has hitboxes behind his DJed ones as well...

 

[Judge Judy]

The 1st points are kind of stupid to talk about (I mean Lucas and Mario can both screw with the others recoveries to a point)

Mario's edge game > Lucas's

Also may I ask how you think Mario has more Priority?

Mario does have better priority, but Lucas's atks are more disjointed than Mario's.

 

[Irsic]

Lucas has a pretty **** good edge game. I wouldn't underestimate it by any means.

 

[Judge Judy]

Lucas has a pretty **** good edge game. I wouldn't underestimate it by any means.

I'm not underestimating it; I'm comparing it to Mario's.

 

[heytallman]

I'm not underestimating it; I'm comparing it to Mario's.

Please explain Mario's edge game. I'm not doubting you, I would just like to know what to watch for. Cape? Spike? Nair? What?

 

[Judge Judy]

Please explain Mario's edge game. I'm not doubting you, I would just like to know what to watch for. Cape? Spike? Nair? What?

Mario's edgeguarding abilities + Mario's planking

 

[heytallman]

Mario's edgeguarding abilities + Mario's planking

...That didn't really answer my question. I basically asked "how do Marios edgeguard" and you said "by edgeguarding + planking" ? Please specify things.

 

[Judge Judy]

...That didn't really answer my question. I basically asked "how do Marios edgeguard" and you said "by edgeguarding + planking" ? Please specify things.

Oh, I thought you were asking about Mario's overall edge game. Well, the cape and FLUDD are Mario's main gimping tools but he can add things like fireball setups and aerial juggles as well.

 

[3des]

exactly; judge judy;



mario's edgegame is golden when its compared to lucas; he has the FLUDD and cape; but only a decent mario can really pressure a "good" lucas with the edge game;


which is why i say; Lucas players should NOT use pk thunder as a recovery against pro mario's.



as for attacking; spacing is key; although mario can cape most pk fire's; planning out your pk fires and mixing in a short hop + kick (using unpredictable approach tactics) is the only way to fight a good mario;





and try not to fight close range; for mario has his down smash which has like very small lag time in between attacks...so close range shouldn't be an option with lucas unless you're shield grabbing.

 

[fromundaman]

Quick question:

If you think/know a Lucas is going to zap jump, couldn't you try to shoot a barrage of fireballs to get a fireball gimp? I seem to manage them on most characters, but haven't really played much against Lucas.

 

[hippiedude92]

exactly; judge judy;



mario's edgegame is golden when its compared to lucas; he has the FLUDD and cape; but only a decent mario can really pressure a "good" lucas with the edge game;


which is why i say; Lucas players should NOT use pk thunder as a recovery against pro mario's.



as for attacking; spacing is key; although mario can cape most pk fire's; planning out your pk fires and mixing in a short hop + kick (using unpredictable approach tactics) is the only way to fight a good mario;





and try not to fight close range; for mario has his down smash which has like very small lag time in between attacks...so close range shouldn't be an option with lucas unless you're shield grabbing.

Um let's see what luca's recovery options, tether recovery, pk thunder, zap jump (thats the one he jumps really high i think right?), magnet pull (thats the horizontal distance one i think)?.

Well the whole good and bad lucas and mario is a strawmen's arguement. We're already assuming that both players are at the top equal skill as much as possible.

Apparently, Mario does have the tools he needs for the edgegame on Lucas. FLudd/cape handle pk thunder, zap jump, and magnet pull. He can uses his aerial juggles and fireball setups as a freebie.

So obviously mario edge game ***** luca's.

What's luca's gimp tools? hm?

 

[Irsic]

Quick question:

If you think/know a Lucas is going to zap jump, couldn't you try to shoot a barrage of fireballs to get a fireball gimp? I seem to manage them on most characters, but haven't really played much against Lucas.

No, this does not work the way you think it does. It happens very quickly and Lucas ascends really high.

...And people never anticipate the zap jump. :| So gl with that.

 

[_clinton]

Mario does have better priority, but Lucas's atks are more disjointed than Mario's.

Where is your proof that Mario's Priority is better?

Um let's see what luca's recovery options, tether recovery, pk thunder, zap jump (thats the one he jumps really high i think right?), magnet pull (thats the horizontal distance one i think)?.

Well the whole good and bad lucas and mario is a strawmen's arguement. We're already assuming that both players are at the top equal skill as much as possible.

Apparently, Mario does have the tools he needs for the edgegame on Lucas. FLudd/cape handle pk thunder, zap jump, and magnet pull. He can uses his aerial juggles and fireball setups as a freebie.

So obviously mario edge game ***** luca's.

What's luca's gimp tools? hm?

How is Ryuka going to be stopped from doing Magnet pull? The move has different speeds and different travel paths...The way I use magnet pull anyway is just to get in range in the 1st place...normal boring use of PSI Magnet has the same horizontal fall range as Jigg's normal fall range from high up...

Also for what Mario has for an edge guard game...I'm shocked the "Super Man" combo hasn't been brought up yet...

Ryuka's gimp and or ledge guarding tools (In no real order or rank)
PK Fire
PK Thunder
PK Freeze
PSI Magnet
Fair
Bair
Dair
Uair
Ftilt
Dsmash
Usmash
Fsmash
Rope Snake

 

[pyrotek7x7]

According to the Mario matchup thread back in the Mario boards, the matchup might be about 55:45 in Mario's favor. Looks about right.

As others have said, it is a close matchup, but Mario is now the king of the lower tiers. He has superior gimping capabilities and does have a little bit of priority on him. I think the most important thing here is not exactly how much better one is over the other, but how Mario's natural playstyle will force a Lucas player to change their playstyle drastically. PK Thunder as a recovery is now extremely dangerous to pull off, and staying anywhere near the edge is a bad idea against Mario in this scenario. A missed Usmash (I hope Lucas players aren't spamming this) can be FLUUDed and will push Lucas off the edge and quickly give Mario the advantage. Also, Mario's stutter-stepped Fsmash has some crazy range. If Lucas makes a badly spaced fsmash or dsmash or whatever, you can be sure to get a stutter-stepped flaming fist in your face. Sweetspotted, it will kill at low(ish) percents.

But again, I don't have that much knowledge about Lucas.

 

[fromundaman]

No, this does not work the way you think it does. It happens very quickly and Lucas ascends really high.

...And people never anticipate the zap jump. :| So gl with that.

Oh I know, but I know at least I start spamming fireballs long before they get within range to recover, just so that they are out there as obstacles the opponent has to get around when recovering, making a more predictable recovery, and if for any reason they do hit, well, there goes a jump.

I personally tend to anticipate zap jumps more than they actually occur as well...

 

[_clinton]

As others have said, it is a close matchup, but Mario is now the king of the lower tiers.

>_>
Which choice will it be for me...

A. I like how that tier list was made and looks/sarcasm
B. I like how you have a "fun filled" blind appeal to authority
C. lulz
D. All of the above.

He has superior gimping capabilities and does have a little bit of priority on him.

Again where is the proof on this claim?

I think the most important thing here is not exactly how much better one is over the other, but how Mario's natural playstyle will force a Lucas player to change their playstyle drastically.

Yes...because Lucas' natural style has no effect on Mario's style at all (Fireballs)

PK Thunder as a recovery is now extremely dangerous to pull off, and staying anywhere near the edge is a bad idea against Mario in this scenario.

Yes...because Lucas doesn't have about 5 other options for his recovery...

A missed Usmash (I hope Lucas players aren't spamming this) can be FLUUDed and will push Lucas off the edge and quickly give Mario the advantage.

When fighting someone like me you might see it maybe once or twice in a 3 stock match if anything...

Also, Mario's stutter-stepped Fsmash has some crazy range. If Lucas makes a badly spaced fsmash or dsmash or whatever, you can be sure to get a stutter-stepped flaming fist in your face. Sweetspotted, it will kill at low(ish) percents.

Lucas having set ups for his Fsmash and the way the other two moves are used will have to be off if he is going to be hit in down time...

 

[pyrotek7x7]

I agree with everything you said Clinton. Again, I hardly know a thing about Lucas and was just giving my experiences with Lucas players who weren't quite pro. And yes, I suppose I was being a little cocky about the tier list. Usually I don't stand by it, but in this case I kind of wanted to hint at the fact that there was probably good reason for Mario rising up the tier list. ^_^;

Lucas may have more recovery options at his disposal, but reducing the amount of available options via FLUUD or cape will give Mario ever so slightly more of a chance to intercept and predict what will happen.

How Mario uses fireballs will change quite a lot. His strategy will need to change, particularly in where he is and what he is doing while a fireball is flying. Lucas can't absorb a fireball and avoid a grab at the same time, can he? (Although this would require a lot of well-placed fireballs and Lucas being exactly where the Mario player wants him to be). The stick can be used to reflect, but that might leave Lucas open to attack (or more fireballs). Then again, fireballs are also very easy to simply block or jump out of the way with.

Lucas's fsmash is a scary move to deal with. It comes out fast, has good range, and will KO Mario with ease close to the edge. It's a lot faster than Mario's fsmash and probably just as powerful. All Mario can do is try to use the stutter-step's long reach in a well-placed manner.

I still can't quite imagine PK Fire being used to good use much against a stable Mario ready to do a cape. After hearing "PK" and recognizing what Lucas will do, Mario has plenty of time to cape it. I suppose if Mario is recovering, has used his cape too early, or was recently hit, a PK Fire could damage him without being reflected.

Again where is the proof on this claim?

You can't really find proof to "Who is the better gimper?" It's mostly based on opinion on the character's moveset, how the moves are used together, and who has the advantage in the most common scenarios. Mario has two of some of the greatest gimping tools in his arsenal: the FLUUD has long-distance, high-effect spray that does not give back a third jump (it also is extremely low-risk for the reward it provides), and the cape is well used before or after a FLUUD to simply reflect incoming projectiles that aid the opponent's recovery and to push back opponents attempting to return to the stage (well placed capes can waste a jump. Multiple well placed capes can KO at any percentage). The fireball can also be used for gimping, but not so much. It will also waste a jump if used correctly.

Lucas does have great gimping potential, though. From my understanding, he can PK Thunder from off the edge with little risk. Caping is a possibility, but used at the wrong time Mario will not be able to reach the ledge. You've also got PK Freeze (not sure how much you guys use that) that can't be reflected and is also difficult to dodge when you're busy recovering. Lucas also has some crazy spikes that Mario really can't do a thing against except cape stall to change his trajectory so he won't be where Lucas thinks he will.


Hopefully this post was a bit more useful than the other. I'd like to hear feedback on this.

 

[Judge Judy]

Where is your proof that Mario's Priority is better?

Just test Mario's aerials VS Lucas's.

How is Ryuka going to be stopped from doing Magnet pull? The move has different speeds and different travel paths...The way I use magnet pull anyway is just to get in range in the 1st place...normal boring use of PSI Magnet has the same horizontal fall range as Jigg's normal fall range from high up...

Cape.

Also for what Mario has for an edge guard game...I'm shocked the "Super Man" combo hasn't been brought up yet...

Most know how Mario's edgeguarding works for the most part, no need to state the obvious.

 

[Tyr_03]

fromundaman: We should play sometime. I make it to tourneys when I can. Are you doing any of the midwest circuit? We get some good tournaments in Cincinnati. You should come sometime if you can. Hopefully I'll play you sometime and show you what the matchup is like. I've never played a good Mario player either so hopefully you'll provide a challenge for me.


Also, Lucas can't be gimped if the person knows what he's doing. If you don't believe me just try to gimp me. It won't happen.

 

[_clinton]

Usually I don't stand by it, but in this case I kind of wanted to hint at the fact that there was probably good reason for Mario rising up the tier list. ^_^;

There is...check how people voted for when it comes to Mario...you should see that stats can be funny that way and one vote can screw up everything ^_^

Lucas may have more recovery options at his disposal, but reducing the amount of available options via FLUUD or cape will give Mario ever so slightly more of a chance to intercept and predict what will happen.

What he is reducing isn't much though...

How Mario uses fireballs will change quite a lot. His strategy will need to change, particularly in where he is and what he is doing while a fireball is flying. Lucas can't absorb a fireball and avoid a grab at the same time, can he? (Although this would require a lot of well-placed fireballs and Lucas being exactly where the Mario player wants him to be).

Yes he can actually...Both magnets and the two Shine moves off of two of the space furries can cut their end lag when they absorb/reflect something for about a few frames...the move gets treated as a shield somewhat and in that you can roll, jump, or spot dodge...

The stick can be used to reflect, but that might leave Lucas open to attack (or more fireballs). Then again, fireballs are also very easy to simply block or jump out of the way with.

Not only does the bat/stick reflect them normally...it also happens to add to the moves speed and damage...but who cares...like you said...fireballs are also very easy to simply block or jump out of the way of.

I still can't quite imagine PK Fire being used to good use much against a stable Mario ready to do a cape. After hearing "PK" and recognizing what Lucas will do, Mario has plenty of time to cape it. I suppose if Mario is recovering, has used his cape too early, or was recently hit, a PK Fire could damage him without being reflected.

PK Fire comes out on Frame 18 (Ness' comes out on frame 21). The normal human reaction time is 15-20 frames or so...both moves can punish and nothing is perfect...

The point of moves like the shine/cape/magnet/other reflect move or special move is that while they reduce the play aspects of certain moves...they don't flat out reduce them to nothing though

You can't really find proof to "Who is the better gimper?

Mario as a gimper...as far as tools go...he brings to the table like you said two very special tools that overall make his gimp game special (Pit and Squirtle are the only other two with Mario's type...and yet they only have one) and overall one of a kind...

Of course I'll say it again...The point of moves like PK Thunder, The Cape, The Mirror Shield, and whatever other special move that has strong gimping tricks is that while they reduce the play aspects of certain moves...they don't flat out reduce them to nothing though

Just test Mario's aerials VS Lucas's.

May I ask how would you recommend I go about this test?

Cape.

How would cape effect Lucas' Magnet? I think you think Every time Lucas uses Magnet pull it is something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGjNswHpHGU&feature=related

But you can do them like this as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqTjQj7n4_8&feature=related

Most know how Mario's edgeguarding works for the most part, no need to state the obvious.

K then...

 

[Tyr_03]

Aerial priority is more complicated than just saying "this one beats this one." It's all about range and direction. If I'm above Mario and use Dair and he uses Bair, I'm going to win. If I'm besides Mario and I use Dair and he uses Bair, he's going to win. Vertically, Lucas is always going to win with Dair or Uair. Horizontally, Mario's Bair is pretty insane but it's likely that Lucas's Fair will either trade hits or beat it because of its range when well spaced. Then there's Lucas's Bair which I guarantee will outprioritize any aerial Mario uses but is slow as **** and is rarely going to apply. So yeah...good luck quantifying that one. I'll give you that pretty much anything Mario has will outprioritize our Nair but that's true for just about everyone.

And Clinton, if your reaction time is actually 15-20 frames, you are not going to go far in Smash. Not many professional Smash players have average reaction time. And you also have to take into account the fact that most professional players have a good idea of what you're going to do before you do it. The only way PK Fire can come as a surprise and hit a cautious player on the ground is if you use it at a time when they expect you to do something else (substantially increasing their reaction time) or they make a stupid error. The rest is punishment.

 

[Levitas]

I have a subpar reaction time to a large degree.

I always assume 9 frame reactions from my opponents.

 

[fromundaman]

fromundaman: We should play sometime. I make it to tourneys when I can. Are you doing any of the midwest circuit? We get some good tournaments in Cincinnati. You should come sometime if you can. Hopefully I'll play you sometime and show you what the matchup is like. I've never played a good Mario player either so hopefully you'll provide a challenge for me.


Also, Lucas can't be gimped if the person knows what he's doing. If you don't believe me just try to gimp me. It won't happen.

I'm not sure which I'm going to (depends on classes and if I can get rides there), if any, but I look forward to playing you if I do. I haven't really played any good Lucas' either (hell, I'm probably the best Lucas I know, and my Lucas is truly nothing to brag about), so hopefully this'll be a good experience for both of us.

PK Fire comes out on Frame 18 (Ness' comes out on frame 21). The normal human reaction time is 15-20 frames or so...both moves can punish and nothing is perfect...

The point of moves like the shine/cape/magnet/other reflect move or special move is that while they reduce the play aspects of certain moves...they don't flat out reduce them to nothing though

I'm pretty sure the cape is slower to come out than PK fire too, so while I'm bound to use it if it looks like you're about to do a SH PKfire (I think you guys call it PK waveland?), if you catch me at close range with it unawares, it's probably a better option to attempt to shield when I hear "PK...".

 

[Levitas]

Mario can cape fire on reaction.

It doesn't matter. PK fires that are placed correctly don't get returned to sender.

 

[Tyr_03]

I use PK Fire in three ways. The first is just spacing where I don't expect it to hit anyway. The second is using it with mindgames to actually hit. The third is when there's almost no way to escape it (like when you're on the ground or spaced just right in the air.) It very rarely gets hit back to me.

I should be at the one in Springfield in March. Hope to play you! I'm always looking for new matchup experience.