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Data Luigi Match-up Discussion Thread

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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Most times I get hit with Shadow Sneak are offstage when I'm thinking about edgeguarding or when Shadow Sneak is completely random. I tried keeping my eye on the floor but Greninja's just don't SS as much as they used to and all that movement forces me to keep watch on the actual character. Greninja has surprisingly low lag on some of its moves. Whenever I try punishing an Usmash, I'm getting jabbed out or spotdodged. A shielded Dair is safe because it bounces off and is tricky because of the mix up to Dair again or do something else. The only move I've been able to punish as Luigi was a blocked SS.

Nair can be shield grabbed with very precise timing. Too late and you'll get jabbed. There's a Greninja I play on a semi-regular basis. I continuously get stomped but whenever I figure something out I'll report here. Currently, I'm stumped on this MU as I'm constantly on the defensive and getting stage spiked by Greninja's Bair. Grabs are even tough. The only way I've been racking damage has been through Cyclone, jabs, and dash attacking spotdodges. Kill moves have been incredibly difficult.
 

Yonder

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So some match ups I've played a bit lately online are Falcon [a TON of Falcon, the most out of any character], Samus, and Villager.

In short, Falcon is average, Samus is easy, and Villager is hard.

Falcons can be uppercutted if they whiff any special moves, but thanks to his long limbs and fast movement speed, he can juggle Luigi with up airs very well. Fortunately, one down throw on Falcon makes him easy to combo thanks to his big frame and fast fall speed, about as easy to combo as Ganondorf. I usually never fail to get less than 59% off a grab at 0%. Unlike Ganondorf though, who can't answer to fireballs, Falcon can do a flying knee over them and hit you square on, so they are only average in this matchup. He can still be gimped with a well placed dair though. I usually win this match up though thanks to the sheer amount of how much I've played it now. If untrained though, can be a bit difficult. Falcon can juggle and get around your projectiles with speed, but often leaves himself open to uppercuts and combos hurt him. 55:45 Falcon.

Samus, now here's one of Luigi's easiest matchups, imo. You may think Samus can do lots of damage here thanks to her plethora of projectiles...until you realize Luigi can tornado though all missiles. I'm not sure if he loses momentum with super missiles, but normal missiles he plows right though and doesn't stop, they are basically useless here. Also Samus is fairly easy to D throw to combos, and to Up B. She can be gimped, if you time it right. The only and only threatening things Samus has here is charge shot. That you cannot tornado through. Most Samuses use a back throw then charge it [like any character with a charging projectile] and Luigi's slow speed often lets them do that. Fireballs work great, they cancel out missiles and Samus is big so has little way around them. Other than that, nothing else of Samuses scares me. She doesn't kill very well, and zair is the only other tool worth mentioning to keep Luigi out. 65:35. I love this matchup.

Now Villager sucks. He moves alright, but his gyroids and slingshots create a nasty wall against Luigi. Gyroids linger longer than you think too, so don't spotdodge. I can't remember if Nair clanks them out, although I don't think so. If Luigi is recovering low with tornado, a bowling ball kills him instantly. If he's using missile, slingshot with kill him. So recovery high, not low or medium. At least you have a chance to live with Villager's random damage on turnips. Fireballs are useless thanks to trees and pocket. Tornado is canned by slingshot and gyroids. Villager cannot be gimped recovery ever [then again, who can?]. Very, very tough. You though Rosalina was hard? At least once you get in she's D throw to Up B bait and dies early with few defensive options without Luma. Villager is just average here. But it's everything else that makes this hard. One of Luigi's worst, i not his worst all together .65:35 Villager. I've never struggled against anyone else to this level. [No 85:25s or anything because this isn't MK vs Luigi in Brawl lol.]
 

hey_there

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I've noticed that there's a moment before the gyroid fires and becomes 'active' where you can slip past it with a cyclone and hit Villager. Other than that, Villager shuts down so many options for Luigi that makes the match up really hard. It's the match up I'm having the hardest time with currently; much more so than Shiek or Diddy.
 

BJN39

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Sorry if I'm intruding on a discussion, I just wanted to let you Luigis know that the Zelda boards will be discussing the Luigi MU starting tomorrow, and we'd LOVE to have experienced Luigis' input. ^ ^

:4zelda: - "Click me to use Farore's Wind!"
 
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One Tilt

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I picked up Luigi fairly recently, after testing his recovery led to curiosity at his chain throws and then I started noticing how great his fireballs felt, and how he had the most consistant aerials I've ever used, and how his combos racked up damage absurdly fast, and how nicely tornado could get one out of a pinch... I mean, all his tools are just fun... ah, but I'm getting off topic...

ZSS is a matchup I've been playing a fair bit lately, albeit not against the most varied lineup of players, and it's definitely one of the more interesting ones. On the one hand, ZSS is one of the few characters who feels to be an aerial threat to Luigi, on the other, he's able to shut down an incredible amount of her ground game through fireballs-- it outspeeds and clashes with her neutral and side B's, while also interrupting her tether grab follow-ups to the former. That, and cyclone also cuts through paralyzer shots and dash attacks, in addition to it working as a solid aerial defensive tool against her Fairs/Uairs (but not so much Nairs/Zairs). That said, ZSS's aerial speed is pretty high pressure, and her up B fills a similar role to Luigi's in working as a punishing KO move. ZSS's Usmash is also extremely troublesome, given it's lingering and Luigi's poor aerial mobility, and she has plenty of tools for potentially gimping Luigi-- particularly given how far she can safely chase offstage. Add to that her greater attack range in general plus her fairly easily comboed size, and you have quite the interesting matchup. That, and for some reason ZSS was the first I landed a Dtaunt spike on (the second being Bowser), which, while irrelevant, rather cemented my thinking of this as a curious MU. I don't have any opinions on who might have the advantage (I've barely developed a playstyle with Luigi yet, after all), but I'm quite curious to see what others think of the odds. ^^
 

Yonder

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I can say now that after the plethora of ZSS I've versed...it's really not too bad of a matchup. I remember posting about this matchup in the ZSS specific thread, so I'll just pull the info out of there:

"ZSS is certainly iffy...but not as bad as Rosalina or Sheik. She will outspeed you movement wise, and she's difficult to juggle [moreso than Rosalina]. Stun gun I have no found super effective as a projectile against Luigi attack wise, I always clank it out with Nair or tornado. So it won't pose a threat stunning you for the most part. But it will stop your momentum a bit. When she knocks you into the air, she will follow with an up B 9/10 times. Luigi seems a bit slippery for ZSS to directly land her side B, it usually only nicks him with the cord and not the sweetspot. When she grabs and misses , very vulnerable to an up B. Rising tornados are nice to kill off the top, be weary of down Bs or dairs in the air though.

Overall rough thanks to mobility issues, but not terrible. Like Vaporeon said, 60-40 or 65-35 ZSS, I can't decide...can we agree on 62.5-32.5 ZSS? :p"

Things have changed though, of course. Now, I think it's 60-40 ZSS and not a point higher. Most important points are tornado can clank out stuns, also nair can. Luigi can also crawl under all stuns cept a fully charged one. And when she whiffs a grab, she's basically dead. She's going to need a grab to set you up in the air high enough for a predictable up B. Fireballs work great here too, stop stuns and ZSS has no reflector. Also prone to dair gimps, she's not too trouble offstage asides from her spiking Down B, watch for it. If she misses though, she uses tends to whiff her recovery when focusing to set it up so much.

Verdict: 60-40 ZSS.
 

Yonder

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I'm going to chime in on the DK matchup now. This matchup is another fun one for Luigi. Why? Because if you get so much as a grab on DK, he's in big trouble. A normal 0-40 or 50 on a character is about 0 to 60 or 80 on DK. It's nuts how easy he is to combo, might be the easiest in the game along with Ganondorf and DDD. DK has no moves on startup than are fast enough to really escape either. Also although it's not super easy to dair gimp offstage here, it is easy to spam fireballs at him while he recovers. Since he is entirely horizontal dependent, he has to eat a lot of them before getting back to the ledge or offstage. But it's not all bad for DK; if Luigi whiffs a move at the wrong range, he's in big trouble because DK definitely has the range advantage here. Also for the love of Arceus don't let him get you offstage, 3 different meteors against Luigi's recovery spells instant death, think about recovering and nothing else while trying to get back.

So overall, Luigi wrecks DK on stage with his fireballs that DK can't answer to and the combos destroy him more than anyone else. DK has deadly range though and will meteor smash Luigi offstage. But once Luigi gets in on DK, he's virtually out a stock if you land a kill move on him before he keeps out out with his range.

Verdict: 60-40 Luigi. Unlike Samus, DK at least has range on Luigi and a deadly offstage gimping game.
 

TriTails

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ZSS is one of the easier characters I fight with Weegee....Well, I think those are noobs.

Fireballs stop ZSS' Paralyzer, no matter how hard she charge it. Forcing her to rely on her close combat. Now, what I usually do is wait for her to approach and punish her. She has tether, but like other tethers in the game, it's punishable. But her D-throw (I think? The one that where she slams you with her leg) can lead to her aerials and, this is just great, UP-B!

Well, Luigi need to stick with his ground combat. Occasional Cyclones, and rely on grabs, and make sure you use Fireballs often but not spamming..... and that's what I did. Dodge her grabs, and Cyclone her Down-b (Interrupt her in the air, but this will require some good reads), punish her as hard as you can, and when she miss a grab, she is dead.

Well, I dunno why, but ZSS seem easy for me. Maybe those ones are noobs. But I guess it's just me.

DK is like Ganondorf, but easier. You combo him, he is at your mercy. He hits you five times, you're dead. His D-smash is quite strong and fast, and those tilts KO. Similiar to Ganondorf, but easier to combo. I mean, wow at that hurtbox. He may be the biggest character in this game.
 

FEFIZ

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Great tips guys! Help me alot ^^
 
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Sari

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I need help dealing with some pesky Link spammers.

I started to main Luigi recently and every time I fight a Link on 1v1, they always spam the boomerang/arrows, roll, and occasionally hit me with a forward smash/dash attack. Front approaches such as the tornado, dash attack, and green missile are almost impossible thanks to Link's boomerang and arrows, while aerial approaches are also difficult because of Link's up-smash (which has good range) and Luigi being kind of floaty. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
 

TriTails

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I need help dealing with some pesky Link spammers.

I started to main Luigi recently and every time I fight a Link on 1v1, they always spam the boomerang/arrows, roll, and occasionally hit me with a forward smash/dash attack. Front approaches such as the tornado, dash attack, and green missile are almost impossible thanks to Link's boomerang and arrows, while aerial approaches are also difficult because of Link's up-smash (which has good range) and Luigi being kind of floaty. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
His projectiles are all slow/need to be charged. First, jump. If he throws bombs, catch it with an airdodge and pelt it on his face. If he Boomerangs, Cyclone in midair. Cyclone breaks Boomerang while in midair. If he arrows, double jump and Cyclone him or fastfall aerial. His U-smash won't hit you unless you are above or beside him, so don't move directly above him. It has some cooldown, use it to your advantage.
 

One Tilt

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I need help dealing with some pesky Link spammers.

I started to main Luigi recently and every time I fight a Link on 1v1, they always spam the boomerang/arrows, roll, and occasionally hit me with a forward smash/dash attack. Front approaches such as the tornado, dash attack, and green missile are almost impossible thanks to Link's boomerang and arrows, while aerial approaches are also difficult because of Link's up-smash (which has good range) and Luigi being kind of floaty. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
I've found that fireballs are an easy out to a surprising majority of projectile problems. Shiek, Mario, DHD, and Villager are the main sorts whose projectile games don't suffer too much from fireball spam, but it really ruins the day of everyone from Samus to ZSS to Robin to Greninja... Luigi's fireballs have some insane priority, minimal lag, and great spamming speed-- far quicker than anything more varied projectile-users can generally manage. I''ll throw a huge [citation needed] on this, of course, but I expect that some nice fireball camping will outdo flowchart Link* nicely.

Flowchart Link, by the by, is this:
If enemy is far...
If enemy uses a reflector...
Dash attack.​
If you have your boomerang...
Throw it.​
If not...
Fire bow.​
If enemy is near...
If enemy is in front...
If enemy is high %...
Forward smash.​
If enemy is low %...
Jab combo.​
If enemy is above...
Up smash.​
If enemy is behind/rolling...
Spin attack/down smash. (Omg a decision!?)​
If hit...
If airborne...
Down aerial.​
Roll to the opposite side of the stage​

You can generally ignore bombs, tilts, grabs, and aerials beyond Dair, as Flowchart Link does not possess these moves (only standard Link can perform them). He may attempt one or two, but I can assure you, they are almost always mistaken inputs. The bright side is that once you do get inside his range, he's combo fodder, as his only defense in the air is Dair... anywho, but being serious about this, if someone's being that predictable, it generally means they have little in the way of core mechanics worked out. Solid enough fundamentals can be an auto-win against them, but, failing that, get into their mindset when possible. They're an excellent chance to practice baiting responses, since the reading isn't important-- they announce their next move by nature of being bound to a flowchart. Above them expecting Usmash? Double jump it then fast fall tornado. Expecting a jab combo? Shield it then dash grab. He charging a bow whilst you're in midair a short distance away? Offensive Luigi missle if you have to. Keep in mind, though, that Luigi's safest advance in many cases is to limit your opponent first with fireballs regardless of your intentions-- neglecting them can make even the easiest of matchups quite the nightmare. Dash attack and air advances are generally unsafe outside of combo-chasing, while tornado is a bit iffy unless a foe is vulnerable or otherwise can't punish it-- Luigi's approach game feels like one of his few, but most notable weakpoints.
 

One Tilt

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I'm having trouble with Sheik.... any advice? Her needles is JUST. SO. ANNOYING!
Yeah... I've been having more trouble with Sheik than most any other matchup I can think of... Needles trump out fireballs and screw with Luigi's recovery and tornado, screwing over a lot of his ground game, while Nair and those quick Ftilts make landing a grab quite the nightmarish prospect. In fact, she may be able to simply duck a grab attempt, for that matter... Add to all that the fact that her aerials all but out-combo Luigi, and that he has so few tools to deal with bouncing fish, and you've got all kinds of problems going on.

In fact, I think the only real strengths Luigi has is that he can still zone airspace with fireball, that he can KO far earlier than Sheik, and that cyclone still works in the air fairly well to break through Sheik's combo game... I'm not sure by what margin, but I'd be willing to bet that it's certainly not a matchup in Luigi's favor, unless I'm missing something critical and very matchup-specific.
 

TriTails

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Sheik vs Luigi is definitely tough. Even BOSS LOST against Neo's Sheik as Luigi. Oh man, this MU is going to be something ludicrous like 80:20 Sheik's favor....
 

One Tilt

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Sheik vs Luigi is definitely tough. Even BOSS LOST against Neo's Sheik as Luigi. Oh man, this MU is going to be something ludicrous like 80:20 Sheik's favor....
Really? Could you link to that game? I've mostly only really found Boss's games from S@X, IIRC, and I didn't get to see any sheik matchups. What few I did find of different players felt to be a mite lower level (i.e. were looking much closer to my own games rather than having more power shields than a lv9 CPU), so it's a bit hard to tell if they were playing at equal skill... though, I suppose that'd mean the inverse argument of purely analyzing Boss could be considered irrelevant as well, if he felt to just be playing significantly better. Though, only a very few games I saw quite felt like that.

Anywhos, but Bowser is definitely one I've seen a fair bit of as well as gotten to play fairly often, and I'm starting to get a bit of a picture of the matchup... To start with, be very careful about low % fireballs and jabs, as they are uniquely unsafe whilst Bowsers at unflinchably low %'s. Starting a match with cyclone or a more tentative approach will keep you from fireballing into a free dash attack or jabbing just to get dropkicked for your trouble. In face, even later on, your fireball approaches can be zoned out occasionally by that flame breath, so I've found them to be a bit less reliable than usual-- that said, it's still handy for a bit of poke and covering your recovery, and you only need be too worried if tempting flame breath with the lag of fireball or if he's sticking to low %'s. Speaking of his fire breath, be very careful about it when recovering-- stay calm and don't waste your second jump into it just to get gimped.

Beyond those nuisances, Bowser's main tools to look out for are the long range of his tilts (and even his jab), along with the fact that you can never afford to be in landing/attack lag below him (or behind him) when he's airborne-- those drop aerials and drop kicks might be punishable, but they're a bit safer against Luigi than most due to our slow air speed, so the most we can generally follow up with is a cyclone unless they space it really poorly. On the ground, keep an eye out for the occasional whirling fortress, which can have some similar uses to our cyclone at times. You can consider quite a bit of his kit to be kill moves, but, luckily, he's also extremely east to combo. I can even manage the downthrow->Fair->Fair->downthrow->Fair->Fair combo on the 3ds against Bowser, and I've heard that he's quite vulnerable to the downthrow->diar chaingrab, as well-- those aside, do keep in mind that you'll need to space out Bowser's Fair, as it has a bit of range to it, and that our key advantage here is how easy Bowser is to prod out openings in for a solid combo or KO move. Downthrow->Nair/cyclone have been what I tend to use for taking Bowser out, myself, but up B can hit his lag after smashes, drop aerials, rolls, or even his spotdodge... I mean, really, I'm not sure why, but Bowser's spotdodge feels remarkably unsafe. Speaking of defenses, though, shielding is, as per usual, the best defensive option we have. Be careful about shield damage, of course, but rolls and spotdodges are a bit more dangerous (as Bowser tends to require a playstyle of heavy reading to begin with, so he'll be looking for them as punish opportunities a lot more often). Luckily, Bowser's grab game isn't massively threatening, as he has little in way of combos or KO setups out of them (barring side B), so you can generally afford a couple of stray grabs far more than you could a single dropkick to the head after a poorly spaced roll.

But I've a nasty habit of being a bit too verbose, so let me try to summarize that...

Bowser feels to be at a slight disadvantage, overall. While he limits our options at most %'s, between unflinching fireball hits at low % and extreme killpower with rage at higher %, these are mitigated by Bowser being so easily comboed into middle %'s from a single grab or the like, and his power with rage is similarly gimped a bit by our surprisingly reliable KO potential against Bowser. Up B is almost BnB from as many openings as he's sure to provide. Cyclone, nair, and bair all work nicely as KO moves as well, of course, and Fair along strings so many free hits together due to Bowser's startup lag on his own aerials and his gigantic size. An even game in neutral, perhaps, as neither have much in way of safe approach to one another, but it feels like Luigi's going to find a far easier time keeping any advantageous game states he can sneak in a lot easier than Bowser-- of the two, Luigi just has far better options for a 'reset to neutral'. For Bowser to win, he'll need to force a lot more openings, as he has a harder time capitalizing on them than combo king Weegee might.

Hope that's of-help-- again, take my perspective with a grain of salt, as I've only been playing Luigi regularly for about two weeks now, with about 2-5 hours or so of play daily... other than that, I last played him to any real extent as a secondary or tertiary (been a while-- all I remember is so many Marth Fairs and screaming at tap-jumps...) in melee (because wavedash for miles...).
 

hey_there

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I need help dealing with some pesky Link spammers.

I started to main Luigi recently and every time I fight a Link on 1v1, they always spam the boomerang/arrows, roll, and occasionally hit me with a forward smash/dash attack. Front approaches such as the tornado, dash attack, and green missile are almost impossible thanks to Link's boomerang and arrows, while aerial approaches are also difficult because of Link's up-smash (which has good range) and Luigi being kind of floaty. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
The main problem there is that FD is flat with no platforms, so it helps campers out a lot. In a real tournament setting you'll be trashing bad players like that because they won't be able to camp as easily.

Anyway, fireball cancels out arrows and boomerang, so keep that in mind. Short hop + fair/dair covers his options to try and punish your aerial approach, and from there you can do an aerial cyclone and drop to the ground and zoom into Link, popping him up. Bair is also good against a campy Link, too. And since he usually throws his boomerang diagonally to cover aerial approaches, you can actually just walk/crawl under it while you approach. Link is also super easy to combo. I've literally 0-death'd a Link in a tournament with grab -> dthow -> dbl fair -> jab -> grab -> dbl fair -> misfire.
 

Yonder

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Sheik vs Luigi is definitely tough. Even BOSS LOST against Neo's Sheik as Luigi. Oh man, this MU is going to be something ludicrous like 80:20 Sheik's favor....
More like 62.5:37.5. Frankly, Luigi has absolutely zero matchups harder than 70:30, being the villager imo. I've fought many Sheiks, and it's bad, but not to that degree at all. Like I said, Luigi has worse matchups out there.
 
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TriTails

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http://youtu.be/7YbcdYLgZnw

For those who want to see Boss vs Neo. He lost the first match as Luigi, and switched to Falco..... but I didn't watched that. But..... don't you think Boss' play seem.... different? He is usually more agile than this, but it may be just me.

And what are worse matchups for Luigi other than Sheik? So far, I've found only Villager.

And also, for Bowser, FJP for life! Seriously, it works quite well. Bowser has high end lag on many of his attacks, especially his specials. Aside from that, take note he cannot be D-air chaingrabbed, so use your Fair chain here.

Bowser is the heaviest character, so he is quite hard to kill. But hey, his huge frame lets Luigi combo even easier, and you can rack up damage on him quite easily. Watch out, at low percents (Up to around 55%) Fireballs won't flinch him, so punish him to approach. And also, in 3DS version, Bowser can't survive the legendary Fire Jump Punch above 84% or so, so FJP him if you see him whiff up his specials or F-smash.

So the strategy is basically punish for the kill, just like other MUs.You see him whiff up an attack, chaingrab him. He whiffs up another, punish him with your smashes or FJP. However, his attacks are STRONG!. Especially his smashes. His aerials are also surprisingly strong, but D-air is punishable. Other than that, be careful, his aerials are rangey. Just don't eat his attacks too much, especially when he is in rage.
 

GreenFlame

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Luigi's bad MUs come from characters who can outspace and outrange him. Characters like Sheik, Rosalina and Villager give him a hard time and have the match in their favour.

Other than characters that outrange Luigi most match-ups are pretty even or in Luigi's favour.
 

GreenFlame

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Almost 2/3 of the cast outrange Luigi. So I think it comes from a different thing.
Yeah...I guess it's characters that outrange him and have fast attacks to do it so they don't let him get in up close to do his thing.
 

Pando

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Yeah...I guess it's characters that outrange him and have fast attacks to do it so they don't let him get in up close to do his thing.
It feels to me that-- with regards to the Sheik matchup-- Sheik kind of does everything that Luigi does but slightly better. Sheik has a fast, spammable harassment projectile that can screw up a lot of recovery options, crazy offstage game that trumps out Luigi's due to better/more adaptable recovery, longer-ranged aerials and faster air speed. Bouncing Fish is like Tornado that it offers a fast, effective punish option.

On the ground, Sheik's favourite combo starters like ftilt, etc, beat out Luigi's ground game. And so on.
 

One Tilt

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I think Sheik's advantage over Luigi stems from having similar mechanics (as was said), but with each individual tool Shiek has trumping Luigi's tool for a given purpose. Shiek's projectile cuts through Luigi's, her combo-starter Ftilt trumps his grab combo-starting, his quick Fairs are trumped by hers... it's a blow-for-blow disadvantage, in spike of Luigi's combos racking on more damage and his having better KO options, as Shiek's main means of KOing are particularly effective against Luigi as well (needles gimp, Fair gimps, bouncing fish gimps, et cetera). I wouldn't be surprised if bouncing fish even trumped cyclone. I'm sure there's a way for Luigi to manage, of course, but I feel like it'll require a far different playstyle than we're apt to use against most other characters.

Speaking of Villager, though, what's that matchup like? I know it's disadvantageous for Luigi due to such campiness taking advantage of his poor approach game, but, beyond that, I've not actually played many [competent] Villager's when I happen to be using Luigi. The gist of my experience thus-far is that the slingshot is our absolute nemesis, and that recovering feels like playing a bullet hell shooter what with all the trees, bowling balls, slingshots, gyroids... Basically, I'm familiar with the problems in the matchup, but much less familiar with what we can do, other than downthrow being as good as it usually is.

This'll be a bit of an odd question, by the by, but has anyone played against a good Marth/Lucina? On paper, it seems like there are some interesting quirks, between their ability to zone us out in the air with Nair/Fair and their relatively slow attacks. Perhaps my curiosity is only spurred on by using quite a bit of both Marth and Luigi in Melee, though-- from my occasional play with Marth, he feels really underwhelming this time around (though it's nice that they buffed some of his less useful moves, even if they crippled his old BnBs).
 

Yonder

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I think Sheik's advantage over Luigi stems from having similar mechanics (as was said), but with each individual tool Shiek has trumping Luigi's tool for a given purpose. Shiek's projectile cuts through Luigi's, her combo-starter Ftilt trumps his grab combo-starting, his quick Fairs are trumped by hers... it's a blow-for-blow disadvantage, in spike of Luigi's combos racking on more damage and his having better KO options, as Shiek's main means of KOing are particularly effective against Luigi as well (needles gimp, Fair gimps, bouncing fish gimps, et cetera). I wouldn't be surprised if bouncing fish even trumped cyclone. I'm sure there's a way for Luigi to manage, of course, but I feel like it'll require a far different playstyle than we're apt to use against most other characters.

Speaking of Villager, though, what's that matchup like? I know it's disadvantageous for Luigi due to such campiness taking advantage of his poor approach game, but, beyond that, I've not actually played many [competent] Villager's when I happen to be using Luigi. The gist of my experience thus-far is that the slingshot is our absolute nemesis, and that recovering feels like playing a bullet hell shooter what with all the trees, bowling balls, slingshots, gyroids... Basically, I'm familiar with the problems in the matchup, but much less familiar with what we can do, other than downthrow being as good as it usually is.

This'll be a bit of an odd question, by the by, but has anyone played against a good Marth/Lucina? On paper, it seems like there are some interesting quirks, between their ability to zone us out in the air with Nair/Fair and their relatively slow attacks. Perhaps my curiosity is only spurred on by using quite a bit of both Marth and Luigi in Melee, though-- from my occasional play with Marth, he feels really underwhelming this time around (though it's nice that they buffed some of his less useful moves, even if they crippled his old BnBs).

I can tell you right now the Marth matchup is WAY easier this time around. I may write about it later, but I don't even think Marth has an advantage here anymore, that's how much nicer it is. Hint: Fireballs wreck Marth + his end lag on everything.

And if Marth isn't bad already...Lucina is even easier, of course. I mean, Marth and Lucina don't get totalled by Luigi thanks to their range still, but I'm thinking 55:45 Luigi for Marth and 60:40 Luigi for Lucina.
 

Pando

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Yep, in my (admittedly limited) experience, Marth/Lucina are pretty vulnerable to good ol' Luigi rushdown. On the ground, Fireballs are naturally useful, and Tornado can cover ground surprisingly fast as a punish option. Superior grab and combo game, too; once you get right up in Marth's face, Luigi's neutral options are superior (I think).

In the air, proper Marth spacing can make approaches difficult, but Luigi has fireballs, a nair which comes out quickly and has no landing lag, and a fair which is also super fast. Bair too I think might outrange or at least match the range on (some of ) Marth's aerials. Once Marth lands the lag naturally makes them pretty vulnerable to punishes, so it's a matchup in which Luigi can go on the offensive pretty successfully
 
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TriTails

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My opinions:
Luigi vs Marth
Well, Luigi USUALLY has problems when it comes to swordies.... but in Marth/Lucina's case (And possibly Ike), it's an exception.

Marth has zero answers to Fireball, and this will push him to approach. Thing is, he doesn't excel in approaching...... (Correct me if I am wrong), and you can usually dodge his approach options and punish him in the end lag with Luigi's great punish game. Marth has nothing to offer Luigi for difficulty but his tippers and edgeguarding skills.

His tippers are pretty much the only thing you need to worry about him onstage. Although, if Luigi doesn't let him get a room, then it's no problem. Luigi need to attack him fast enough, and that isn't usually a problem.

Marth's edgeguarding skills are also pretty decent, possesing long ranged aerials. However, they has pretty bad end lag (Correct me if I am wrong, I am not very familiar with Marth's moveset). Mindgame him off-stage and grab that ledge.

This MU is definitely in Luigi's favor IMO. Maybe around 55:45 Luigi, or maybe even 60:40 Luigi. He isn't that much of a threat other than his tippers.

Luigi vs Lucina
This MU is even better for Luigi. Lucina lacks tippers, taking away one of Marth's few advantages. All she has is edgeguarding skills, and pretty much has all of Marth's disadvantages coupled with lack of tippers and slightly shorter range. This MU is even better than Marth.

This MU is around 60:40 Luigi to 65:35 Luigi. This MU is better than Marth, so there is no way the numbers would be the same. Although, I'm going with these to play it safe....

Verdict: Marth: 55:45 Luigi
Lucina: 60:40 Luigi
 
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One Tilt

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Hm... all very curious. It pains me a bit every time I give Marth a try in smash 4 and notice how vulnerable everything feels, but I didn't want my old bias to let me write him off if he happened to still be a fair problem for Weegee. Though, at the mention of swordies being potential problems, now I'm pondering at my other main as a matchup: Robin. Fireballs are certainly massively useful for their cutting through those projectiles, bar Thoron (even arcfire can be covered with shorthopped fireballs), but Robin's aerials quite consistently hurt like hell, and Robin's tilts feel to be less punishable than Marth's. I think there's more risk in the air in general, but that the angles are very similar (as Robin's aerials hit from much the same distance and even some of the same hitbox placements). That said, I feel like Robin has an even easier time gimping, given those more consistent spikes, arcfire and thunder pokes, Elwind spiking, and Nair pokes that hit at that crazy horizontal angle.

Rolling against Robin should generally be avoided, as it lets them take advantage of their spacing tools a bit too well-- if you can keep arcfire and arcthunder under control with fireballs, shielding becomes an incredibly safe option, as Robin's grab range is extremely limited, a la Little Mac. This, of course, makes Robin highly vulnerable to our usual grab comboing, and their recovery also rather feels to be quite vulnerable to our Dair... or even Dtaunt, given that there are absolutely no hitboxes above, it moves slowly and predictably, and it doesn't sweetspot if poorly spaced. A poorly timed approach will have Robin easily batting you away with an Ftilt, and Robin's neutral game is rather excellent, but Robin has little defense against juggling save for B-reverses or a well-placed Bair. Both can gimp each other, and both can kill moderately early, but Luigi has the easier time of both, while his core mechanics of comboing are largely unhindered by Robin's kit, given that fireballs keep Robin from maintaining much of a campy game.

I'd say the matchup feels comparable to Marth, in any case-- which is the feeling that had me inclined to bring Robin up whilst on the subject of swords. Particularly since Marth, Link, and Shulk have all been discussed at this point... I suppose Ike makes for a decent springboard from there, but I honestly feel like he's about the same as Robin-- easily comboed, can kill early, hates fireballs, disjointed hitboxes and good aerial spacing...

Though, the earlier comment of Villager being 'bad, but not MK vs Luigi in brawl bad' piquing my curiosity once more-- since I've asked of an old melee matchup, it makes sense to wonder at an old one from brawl, now. ^^ I know, I know, Metaknight was nerfed to oblivion, but he still has those quick, disjointed aerials-- which other swordies are starting to feel a lacking for. That said, we've basically stolen everything that made his old tornado so great with ours, and that leaves him likely fireball-weak... I'm just wondering if his range nerfs are particularly pertinent against Weegee, given that range is one of our own weaknesses anyway-- I'm curious if it was simply Metaknight's brokenness or if there ar esome elements of his overall kit, independent of game, that give Luigi trouble.
 

AegonTheConqueror

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Hola folks,

Just played a friendly tournament yesterday and placed second because of a Captain Falcon, and he came from loser's bracket as well. I wasn't able to recover low because of his Dair. And for some reason I couldn't dthrow double Fair at 0%. I think he was DI'ing down or something. It was to the point where I had to go Diddy and he's not on par with my Luigi.

I've read Yonder's take on this matchup, but I was just wondering if anyone else has had bad experience with CF. Maybe I was just not trusting my grab combos or not spamming fireballs enough?
 

hey_there

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Captain Falcon
I beat a Falcon in grand finals at a local tournament a little while ago so I have a couple thoughts.

Captain Falcon is too heavy to get a double fair off at 0%. You can't do it to him, Greninja, Sheik, Mega Man and to a lesser extent, Falco and Fox. Instead you'll want to fair then nair which will pop him up for maybe an utilt or usmash. Alternatively, you can just build a bit of % on him first before going in for dthrow combos.

I always recover super low against Falcon because if he goes too low to edge guard he can't recover back. Just missile really, really low until you're right under the ledge before going for a jump and an up B to sweet spot.

Fireballs help keep him out somewhat but they aren't the most important thing for the match. Dair and bair and nair will be your best tools. Nair interrupts his combos, bair can compete with his bair, which he uses to approach because it's great, and dair beats up basically everything else he can do. Out of a dthrow I like to bair falcon to get him off stage because I find edge guarding him to be super easy. Just hang on the ledge and knock him back with bairs until the stock is gone.

Hope that helps.
 

AegonTheConqueror

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I beat a Falcon...

Captain Falcon is too heavy to get a double fair off at 0%. You can't do it to him, Greninja, Sheik, Mega Man and to a les......
Thank you! It does help! I never realized I couldnt double Fair him til now, just tried it on a CPU. Is it because if his fastfall? I would assume so since we could double Fair Ganon and other heavies. And thank you for the ledge option suggestion, I don't think I've tried that yet with CF maybe because I was afraid that his upB could stage spike.
 
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TriTails

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Fast fall characters CAN be F-air chaingrabbed, but it requires you to build some light damage, the double F-air, then dash grab them to get another D-throw.

Like Fox or Falco, I had to build up 6-12% (Maybe? Hope my memory doesn't fail me) to be able to chain grab them, and I had to dash grab to get another grab. Throw in a Fireball or two and let your chaingrab do the talk.
 

Locuan

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Hey guys! I noticed you discussed the Marth/Lucina match-up already. It would be awesome if you could help us out in our own thread! The discussion on the Luigi match-up just started, we would appreciate the help!
 

MonkeyArms

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Why does Rosalina, possibly the best character in the game, force me to switch to Kirby because she is so akward and hard to fight as luigi? The hit box she has is the most confusing in the game, luma blocks your fire balls and even alone the range of her ariels wreck luigi.
 

Yonder

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Why does Rosalina, possibly the best character in the game, force me to switch to Kirby because she is so akward and hard to fight as luigi? The hit box she has is the most confusing in the game, luma blocks your fire balls and even alone the range of her ariels wreck luigi.
Tornado is great in this matchup, it goes right through Luma and tosses it aside, even killing it sometimes. I like to focus on killing Luma first, then attacking Rosalina after because she doesn't have much of a chance against Luigi without Luma, super easy to combo and D throw to Up B, D throw to tornado is nice too because she'll most likely be stalling up there. She can just run away though due to faster mobility so that's a bit of a problem. Fireball is more useful in the air than the ground/ With Luma in play, it's worthless on the ground.

I personally don't see the point in switching to Kirby here, his range isn't good either and the only worthwhile tool he has here over Luigi is a more effective projectile in the form of Up B. Rob is a fantastic secondary here, laser plows through Luma, hitting Rosalina, and his d throw to u air is really effective. Also his dair is nice for spiking Rosalina during recovery.
 
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hey_there

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Agreeing with @ Y Yonder but I just want to add that personally I actually like hitting Luma with fireball. You can stay out of Luma's reach while pelting and weakening it with fireballs while Luma can't really do anything back except take damage. Fireballs also interrupt Luma Shot, so you don't have to give up complete stage control to Rosa and Luma. A fully charged Luma Shot will go right through fireball though.
 

busken

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How do you make that Spoiler thing like the one that's in the OP?
 

One Tilt

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Hola folks,

Just played a friendly tournament yesterday and placed second because of a Captain Falcon, and he came from loser's bracket as well. I wasn't able to recover low because of his Dair. And for some reason I couldn't dthrow double Fair at 0%. I think he was DI'ing down or something. It was to the point where I had to go Diddy and he's not on par with my Luigi.

I've read Yonder's take on this matchup, but I was just wondering if anyone else has had bad experience with CF. Maybe I was just not trusting my grab combos or not spamming fireballs enough?
The key to that matchup definitely feels like the offstage game-- whoever can recover safer and gimp more consistently will likely decide it-- the on-stage game feels to be pretty blow-for-blow. Falcon's approach game feels better with that boost grab and our inability to punish things like shielded knees consistently due to Luigi-feet, while his speed makes it a bit difficult to simply zone him with fireballs at more medium ranges-- though it does keep him from using too much of his specials. Keep in mind that you've the advantage in the air overall, save for the threat of Uair juggles. Our Fair hits quickly enough to intercept a few predictable knees, tornado lets us mixup our position (Falcon's Bair/Nair/Fair/Dair oft take some movement reads that we can mess with), and he's at least a tall target for us to combo, even if his fast falling makes it a bit trickier at times. That said, you don't want to get into a ground battle, as everything he has outranges us barring fireballs-- force an aerial fight when possible. Falcon's recovery is one of the game's worst in terms of safety, in any case, and his range is pretty average compared to ours-- be very careful about overusing tornados offstage, as up B's invulnerability tends to make it the safer method of reaching the ledge through CF's dair. Tornado and Nair feel like they've had decent luck as KO moves, but I definitely can second the potency of Bair-- it lets you stagespike from behind CF's up B grab angles, on top of flatly beating many of Falcon's own aerial options.
Agreeing with @ Y Yonder but I just want to add that personally I actually like hitting Luma with fireball. You can stay out of Luma's reach while pelting and weakening it with fireballs while Luma can't really do anything back except take damage. Fireballs also interrupt Luma Shot, so you don't have to give up complete stage control to Rosa and Luma. A fully charged Luma Shot will go right through fireball though.
Definitely ignore Rosalina whenever Luma's up if the game's in neutral-- our approach is limited enough without trying to rush through that kind of obstacle. Fireball actually fires quickly enough that it's rarely efficient for Rosalina to down B them all, and, if she's spamming that, she's not attacking, and you're still potentially chipping Luma with a few fireballs. The key seems to be in out-camping Rosalina, as the most Luma might do is fire off some star bits so long as you keep out of its attack ranges and don't walk into Luma shots. Once Luma's down, just keep in mind that you need to take advantage of the speed of your aerials, as that's the key advantage you have over Rosalina's powerful disjointed ones. Even if Luma's up, it offers very little advantage in the air compared to the ground. As a note, while Rosalina's recovery is very quick and it has some great range, it's still quite feasible to stage-spike her. Given her own very slow air speed, though, it's more difficult for her to gimp us with her predictable Dair or such-- though, I normally see Rosalina's edgeguarding instead of hopping offstage to intercept lower recoveries (though that Fair plus Luma shot/star bits is quite the threat horizontally, so be wary of recovering too high). That all said, the match seems to depend on staying out of middle range. At long range, fireball forces her closer, while our only midrange tool is pretty much tornado-- which is unsafe on shield. Up close, our grab and quick air moves give us an edge, but butterfeet makes it difficult to 'stay in' on the ground for long... It seems like a battle of attrition at times, but we have a bit of an advantage in KO power, given the slight difference in weight and our myriad options for earlier KOs. Though, it's pretty difficult to deal with Luma combos if she manages to play aggro enough without making too many unsafe moves... if you can disrupt her control of the game's pace, you'll stand a much better chance.
How do you make that Spoiler thing like the one that's in the OP?
You type [spoiler ][/spoiler], sans the space before the first end bracket (obviously, if I type it out correctly, I'll just make a spoiler tag myself ^^"). So it's just like quotes, only without the ="name" bit.
 

Sari

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I need some serious help dealing with Zelda spammers.

On two completely different occasions in 2v2, I found a Zelda (I think the guy's name was YUFF) who would do nothing but dodge and spam Din's Fire. Whenever I got close to her, she would spam Nayru's Love or throw me away so she could using Din's Fire (getting close to her with the tornado or from above didn't go well). I eventually beat her using Villager, though I'd still like to find a way to counter Zelda spammers as Luigi (I've also found some spammers in 1v1).
 
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