Luigi MU Chart (Now Discussing: Snake)

[Broasty]

I think bowser is able to get out of that CG if he DI's properly. Bowser just has the range and edgeguard tools to keep Luigi away. Not to mention that Luigi is light and dies early to bowser's strong hits. Fireballs dont do anything considering he can just armor them/powershield them (with his huge shield). The best option vs bowser is to keep him in the air and combo him, while also going for wavedash grabs. I mean the matchup is in Luigi's favor, but I think its close to even.

Also I find ganon beats Luigi.

You're right for about past ~40% (Bowser), however at least from my experiences, I've noticed using Luigi's Dash and WD movement, you can CG using JC Grabs and pivot grab. This lack of exactness is precisely wise I was hoping some other Luigi mains might be willing to help me complete the CG Excel Sheet haha.

Ganon is a troublesome one, he hits really hard, but you get greatly rewarded for pulling off a grab. If you space yourself really well, you can Wiff Punish his SHHFL Fair. Overall all, I think the goal of racking damage til his CC break is like I said before, Fireballs and Grabs. As such, really try to avoid small levels with platforms like FoD or Yoshi Story since it's really hard to do either of the methods I mentioned before on them. Once you break that CC though, Ganon becomes combo food. Main ones to know are DSmash @ 48, USmash @ 38, and Second hit of the Cyclone @ 63.

 

[JesteRace]

Some matchups I've played a lot.

Kirby: 55/45 in our favor
Fox: Even
Falco: 45/55
Donkey Kong: 60/40
Toon Link: 60/40
Link: 40/60

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Some matchups I've played a lot.

Kirby: 55/45 in our favor
Fox: Even
Falco: 45/55
Donkey Kong: 60/40
Toon Link: 60/40
Link: 40/60

Fox is not even. Up smash kills us much earlier than most. And shine spiking luigi = death most of the time. He can even kill us at low percents because of it
Also Toon Link is not in our favor at all. He's fast, is able to juggle us, and has projectiles that makes it hard to get in. Link however, i think is closer to even.

 

[Cubelarooso]

@ Broasty
You may already know this, but I just found out and others might find it useful:
Zamus's paralyzation puts you in the air, so Smashville/Dreamland can be a amusing counterpicks against her. Specifically, if she shoots you on the platform/before wind and starts charging Fsmash, she might get moved out of range.
Now that I think of it, stages like Smashville & Skyworld could be good against tetherers, since the overhanging platforms don't do much for their recoveries. Additionally, they're not vulnerable to Zamus's Usmash or Up-B.

 

[JesteRace]

Fox is not even. Up smash kills us much earlier than most. And shine spiking luigi = death most of the time. He can even kill us at low percents because of it
Also Toon Link is not in our favor at all. He's fast, is able to juggle us, and has projectiles that makes it hard to get in. Link however, i think is closer to even.

Yeah, I guess, but we can combo the everliving s*** out of him. His shine on stage slides us too far away for him to follow up very well. The matchup wasn't even that bad in Melee, and we've only gotten better. The only reason Falco isn't even is that f***ing laser snuffs out a lot of approach options. In what form of reality is Toon Link a bigger threat than Link? Link's projectile game is much, much stronger and much, much harder to get through. Toon Link's is good, but he has a real hard time shutting down the down B approach. I would also argue that we juggle him as well or better than he juggles us. But hey, that's just me.

 

[Broasty]

Fox is not even. Up smash kills us much earlier than most. And shine spiking luigi = death most of the time. He can even kill us at low percents because of it
Also Toon Link is not in our favor at all. He's fast, is able to juggle us, and has projectiles that makes it hard to get in. Link however, i think is closer to even.

When you get in on Fox, it's a bad day for Fox. Cyclone til you can UpThrow CG, when you can't UThrow CG, do a SH->Dair->FF->Waveland to chase, then either go for Dair Tech Chase or do a launcher to pull a swag combo that should finish him off or get him off stage (death if edge guarded right usually).

...however he does have the offensive you mentioned too. As such, I personally believe the matchup to be relatively even.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Yeah, I guess, but we can combo the everliving s*** out of him. His shine on stage slides us too far away for him to follow up very well. The matchup wasn't even that bad in Melee, and we've only gotten better. The only reason Falco isn't even is that f***ing laser snuffs out a lot of approach options. In what form of reality is Toon Link a bigger threat than Link? Link's projectile game is much, much stronger and much, much harder to get through. Toon Link's is good, but he has a real hard time shutting down the down B approach. I would also argue that we juggle him as well or better than he juggles us. But hey, that's just me.

Well every character can combo fox, thats one of his main weaknesses, its his weight, combined with his fall speed that makes him such combo food, but that doesn't mean its in our favor. He has incredible ground/aerial speed that make it hard for Luigi to keep up. We are also incredibly vulnerable offstage because of shine spike The matchup was pretty bad in melee due to Luigi not having as good of a platform game in that game and because of his limited approach and aerial speed. And again, fox has no trouble getting early percent kills on Luigi. I do agree, though that he struggled more with Marth, Sheik, and maybe Peach. but fox and falco weren't easy for him.
Toon Link is much faster, hits harder, and has better oos options that shut luigi down. His rang may not be as good, but his bombs are thrown farther and have a bigger blast radius, keeping us out. He has no trouble with Luigi's down b, because bomb/arrow beats it and rang clanks with it. He also has a better edgeguard on Luigi, I feel. He is able to kill us early with down throw up b at 110 even with proper di depending on stage. (YS, PS2, even battlefield iirc). Toon link also has disjoints in his aerials, which, combined with his projectiles, makes it hard for Luigi to approach (Luigi struggles vs extended hitboxes and projectiles in general, which is why Marth, Sheik, and Zelda are so hard for us). Link is a lot slower, has less oos aside from nair and up b, and while I agree with you that his projectiles are better, his attacks are slower and more punishable. I don't know I'd rather fight Link than Toon Link. Link still wins, definitely, but Toon Link give Luigi more trouble.

Also its good to note that fireball cancels rang with both Links, which makes Link's +2 on block rang not so great anymore.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

When you get in on Fox, it's a bad day for Fox. Cyclone til you can UpThrow CG, when you can't UThrow CG, do a SH->Dair->FF->Waveland to chase, then either go for Dair Tech Chase or do a launcher to pull a swag combo that should finish him off or get him off stage (death if edge guarded right usually).

...however he does have the offensive you mentioned too. As such, I personally believe the matchup to be relatively even.

Well yes, I agree. Once we get in he's susceptible to Luigi's insane combo game. but even characters like Zelda, Donkey Kong, ,Ness, for example, can combo him and beat him. But its difficult to approach because of how fast Fox is on the ground, which is one of the reasons as to why so many characters struggle against him Zelda, DK, ness, roy for example also have a cg on him but chasing him and following up is where it gets tough because one mistake can cost you can entire stock. And that's true for Luigi, as well. Its one of the many reasons why people consider Fox to be high tier even in PM. Our full wavedash is able to keep up with him, but any input we miss or any mistake we make, fox can capitalize on it hard because of how good his punish game is. And as mentioned before we die much earlier because of how light we are and shine spike is basically death because of Luigi's predictable recovery. I dont think that matchup itself is the worst, but it's not really in our favor. 55/45 fox i'd say, maybe even 60/40 fox at the least.

 

[Broasty]

Well yes, I agree. Once we get in he's susceptible to Luigi's insane combo game. but even characters like Zelda, Donkey Kong, ,Ness, for example, can combo him and beat him. But its difficult to approach because of how fast Fox is on the ground, which is one of the reasons as to why so many characters struggle against him Zelda, DK, ness, roy for example also have a cg on him but chasing him and following up is where it gets tough because one mistake can cost you can entire stock. And that's true for Luigi, as well. Its one of the many reasons why people consider Fox to be high tier even in PM. Our full wavedash is able to keep up with him, but any input we miss or any mistake we make, fox can capitalize on it hard because of how good his punish game is. And as mentioned before we die much earlier because of how light we are and shine spike is basically death because of Luigi's predictable recovery. I dont think that matchup itself is the worst, but it's not really in our favor. 55/45 fox i'd say, maybe even 60/40 fox at the least.

Curious, when considering matchups, does one consider the players to have perfect execution?

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Curious, when considering matchups, does one consider the players to have perfect execution?

I don't think so considering that we're humans and errors are going to happen. I mean, if you consider perfect execution from both players, then the matchup could be very even indeed, I agree.
And, I'm probably wrong with what I think about this matchup, but from what I've noticed, I just don't really think Luigi is even in this. It's close, I suppose because Luigi has gotten better, but Fox still has a lot of options.

 

[JesteRace]

I never claimed Luigi wins it, I would accept 55/45 Fox if we had to come to a consensus here. Still don't agree on the Links, though

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

I never claimed Luigi wins it, I would accept 55/45 Fox if we had to come to a consensus here. Still don't agree on the Links, though

I think I made a typo...meant to say "don't think Luigi goes even" not "Luigi wins"
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I'd agree on 55/45 Fox. Luigi can destroy Fox when he gets in, but he has to be perfect. A misspaced approach means Usmash, which is not good for a floaty. A mistimed followup means shine, which slides Luigi all the way off-stage for another shine to death. Fox does lose some of his pressure and combos to Luigi's physics, but he still has plenty of options if knows what not to try.
Watching Melee Luigi kings, they use a lot of Air Dodge to recover, which seems like a perfect way to avoid shine.
Also, Luigi's in the top third weight-wise, heavier than anyone viable in Melee sans Falcon, Vaporeon.

I don't have too much experience against either Link, but I see no way that the Toon one is harder.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

I'd agree on 55/45 Fox. Luigi can destroy Fox when he gets in, but he has to be perfect. A misspaced approach means Usmash, which is not good for a floaty. A mistimed followup means shine, which slides Luigi all the way off-stage for another shine to death. Fox does lose some of his pressure and combos to Luigi's physics, but he still has plenty of options if knows what not to try.
Watching Melee Luigi kings, they use a lot of Air Dodge to recover, which seems like a perfect way to avoid shine.
Also, Luigi's in the top third weight-wise, heavier than anyone viable in Melee sans Falcon, Vaporeon.

I don't have too much experience against either Link, but I see no way that the Toon one is harder.

Air Dodge to recover works, but that does leave you a bit open, Granted it is a good way to come back if you're right next to the ledge.
Oh, right. My bad. Sans Samus as well if you consider her viable. But still, you can't deny that Luigi dies pretty early because of his floatiness.

From playing against really good Links and Toon Links at my locals and on wifi, I have more trouble with the latter, mainly because of how fast and combo heavy the character is. But that's just me.

 

[cisyphus]

I know y'all discussed Snake on page one some, but a lot of the posts look like 2.6 stuff (and so is vastly outdated).
Snake wins hard, and there are five primary reasons:
1. Luigi's floatiness.
2. Luigi's movement options.
3. Luigi's hitboxes.
4. Snake's utility with projectiles.
5. Snake's C4.

Luigi's floatiness puts him above Snake constantly, who has SO many options for vertical camping it's almost ridiculous: shielddrop grenade tossing, Cypher hitboxes, strong anti-aerials in u-tilt, u-smash, and u-air as well as up b, and the possibility to wavebounce c4 are all detrimental to Luigi: the floatier a character is, the easier launcher -> c4 is to KO with. For example, U-throw to C4 will KO Luigi around 70% (+/-10% for stage and DI). That's lower than two-thirds of the cast. Snake also gets a free C4 out of a low% grab with SH wavebounce C4, or sometimes just a SH C4. Luigi's movement options leave him extremely weak to mines, C4, grenades, and tranq. A good Snake can use all of these tools along with [DAC]US to camp Luigi out, with Cypher or shield+grenade available to punish most on shield options. Even if Snake doesn't shield with grenade, they trade for 12%, which is a far bigger deal for Luigi than for Snake, given Snake's high vitality and ease at killing floaty characters. Luigi doesn't have many good disjoints to hit Snake with either, so laggy moves get shieldgrabbed and any other move trades with a grenade.
Meanwhile, Snake's options with his projectiles are unparalleled. There was talk of grenades being thrown, and that simply isn't necessary for Snakes to do. If they find your timing is good enough to punish throws (which I can't believe, given the variations possible), they can just mix up their grenade usage. One can:
Do the standard high lob, normal throws, and bowling roll.
Shield drop the grenade and wavedash back to punish approaches.
Shield drop and WD to pick up the grenade, which then leads to:

Forward, Back, Up, and Down Throws, as well as glide tosses and aerial glide tosses
Run up and Shield the explosion
Airdodge to drag-and-drop the explosion hitbox
Roll through the explosion
Spot dodge through the explosion​

Moreover, the high and low normal throws can be used to regrab the grenades for solid mixups, the former allowing for AGT and the latter mostly for the roll/spot dodge/shield options. Mines can be placed anywhere and can be detonated remotely by placing a new one, so if you get too habitual about your shield detonations and aren't on point with them, you can still be punished for it. Moreover, wasting your time doing that is mitigated by laying another one, all while allowing Snake to establish stronger stage presence. They also can just place them on platforms to limit your aerial game and force you to approach on the ground, where a tranq sets you up for any combo they want. C4 have the same utility as mines, but have the added benefit of being droppable while falling, not to mention their stick utility. A raw C4 can KO Luigi at around 100% (stage and DI dependent), and with Snake's vertically-strong recovery, he's able to be above you a whole lot dropping C4 and grenades and whatever else while also baiting you to an easier KO height.

If a Snake is edgeguarding you, he's probably not KOing you in the best ways; but if you're returning from these edgeguards, his edge game isn't on point: Snake can rig up a mine to punish the roll on stage, a C4 to cover any platforms (or even the space between ledge and mine) and grab ledge and refresh invincibility with FFCypher (which also covers the upper half of the ledge with the Cypher hitbox) and at any time can drop down for a rising Bair (or even a fair or dair spike if he's feeling cheeky) to punish the ending frames of side b and down b, and still make it back on stage no problem. All of this sounds extremely Sheik-esque, because it is. The only saving grace for Luigi in these cases is a misfire that carries him over the mine.

The perceived ease or equality of the matchup is more due to the Snake's inexperience (or your own experience with Luigi) rather than absolute matchup values. In my experiences playing AF (a Luigi main at about my skill level) my Snake always always ALWAYS wins vs. Luigi, whereas our Snake vs. Ivy games are back and forth, despite his far greater experience with Luigi.

 

[Boomer3d]

Here is how I feel about every match-up with a guess or two of the general matchup.
(+2) pretty easy
(+2, +1)
(+1) in our favor
(+1, 0)
(0) neutral
(-1, 0)
(-1) in their favor
(-1, -2
(-2) Pretty miserable
Match-ups with * mean not a lot of experience personally.

(0): They are all heavy which makes it easy to combo but they also can outrange and get low% kills.
(0, -1): His weight gets you easy combos but can combo luigi right back and hard.
(0)*: Haven't played too much of the matchup but he reminds me of Bowser, DK, Ganon
(-1): Bananas, if placed correctly, can ruin all of your ground game(which is most of Luigi's game).
(+1, 0): Combos on him are super easy and he can't combo you easily. Lasers suck though.
: Shine Spike still hurts in this game and U-smash kills super easy
(0)*: This is the only matchup I haven't really played, ever.
(-1, -2): It is really easy for him to outrange us and he kills early. Also he can keep us from coming back with Fair.
(0): It is easy to combo Ivy but Ivy can space us out pretty good.
(0): We can out-space Jiggly, just be patient.
(-1, -2): My least favorite matchup. He can crouch cancel everything and out-space you. Spam fireballs.
(-1): Kirby's crouch can almost shut us down,he can gimp us easy, and he has good approach options against us.
(-1): He has a sword and his tether grab can easily negate our approaches. We can combo him easy though.
(+1): It can be tough for him to kill us and combos are fairly easy.
(+1, 0): Combos are super easy and it is hard for him to approach. His combos are deadly though.
(-5): I hate this matchup, all we do is Nair all day.
(-1): His fireballs shut us down and his smashes come out quick and can stop our approaches.
(-1): They have swords. Luckily comboing them aren't hard and their recovery can be easy to gimp as well.
(-1): Like ^ but except we can punish harder but he can punish harder as well.
(+1): Easily break combos with nair and combos can come easy but don't be aggressive and be weary of Up-throw.
(0): He can out-range at times but it is sometimes hard for G&W to kill us. Fair kills for us are super easy.
(-1): PK fire can shut us down pretty easily. Once we get in though combos come naturally.
(0)*: Pikmin hurt but it is hard for him to get in on us, we can gimp him pretty easy.
(+1, 0): We can hit peach hard and she can't really combo us/ hit us hard.
( -1)*: He reminds me of the mario matchup but faster and it is a little easier for us to get in. Up-Smash hurts tho.
(0, -1): He has a swords, and speedy projectile but his kill options are a little lackluster. Gimping his isn't too hard.
(0): His arms make it sorta easy for him to space us out and he has good approaches.
(-1): Good range and her projectiles are pretty good. It can be hard to land a kill on her too.
(0, -1): It is like the melee matchup except it is a lot easier for us to get back on stage.
(+1, 0): It is hard for both characters to approach but we get harder punishes on snake.
(+1): Cyclone can easily shut him down and we can out-range him easy.
(+1) Reminds me a lot of the Sonic matchup. His smash attacks can easily punish us.
(+1) He is slow, range is mediocre, easy to combo, and super easy to kill off-stage.
(0)*:He has a good combo weight and can not to hard gimp. He has hard punishes though.
(+1, 0)*: Reminds me a lot of the falco matchup.
(+1, 0): We can combo Yoshi easy and gimping isn't too hard. Don't let your guard down though.
(0): We can't combo her but she dies early. She can also punish hard and her fireballs can be shut us down a little.
(-1): She has range, can combo us pretty easy, and her projectile doesn't clank with cyclone(which is hella annoying). Personally one of my least favorite matchups.

In general I feel like Luigi has a lot of neutral match-ups but more match-ups that are unfavorable then favorable. But I he isn't un-viable in the least and winning with him feels really rewarding. Also this list is biased towards me for sure but I do feel this is a somewhat close approximation of current match-ups. Not sure if I should of made a new topic on this or not so I just put it here.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

This post was made for PM 3.02; 3.5's mu's i am not sure of.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Got a little more Snake matchup recently.
One thing that shouldn't work against good Snakes, but was against the one I played against, was throwing a slimeball at him while he's planting a mine. He kept getting hit by it, then getting hit by his own mine.
Snakes love to pull grenades when they feel unsafe. I've found a good response to be grabbing him then Bthrow. The hitbox you put on his body activates the 'nade and hits him. It actually deals less damage than just throwing (especially considering it's much harder to follow up), but it can protect you from the blast and make them more wary with their munitions.
Also, I was thinking a nice resource to have would be a list of what grabs go over GM's landing animation.

 

[DMG]

Snake MU used to be awful back when he had Nikita for edgeguard. Was very mindless on Luigi. Right now I'm not too sure how the MU is supposed to go: I generally wreck Snake players who are clearly decent, but not Rolex/Prof Pro level Snake, so a MU rating on this might be highly inaccurate until that MU vs those players happens more.

I think to have any shot at proving an advantage with Luigi in this MU, is to have a very patient and intricate knowledge of maneuvering and getting around shield. Port Priority is helpful and can allow you to take more risks when Grenades are nearby (assuming it still works similar to before), allows you to deal with their shields easier because grabs on both sides favor the guy who won't blow up (and I'm pretty sure it's still on port priority, not on who the grabber is or any other metric?).

 

[cisyphus]

Port Priority is a misnomer of sorts: You actually want the faux super armor from Brawl, which gives player 4 the most and player 1 the least (reverse of Port Priority)

 

[DMG]

Is the ordering different from Brawl to PM? I don't remember the differences between the two games, just that you want to have the other person blow up instead of you and having that lets Luigi accept "blow-up" trades that otherwise would not be in his favor. If it's reversed, fine but point stands you still want that and it can legit change how defensive grenade situations play out

 

[cisyphus]

In PM and Brawl, the player with a larger port number will not take knockback. I'm just clarifying that you shouldn't use the term "port priority" when talking about this mechanic because they are not the same and that causes confusion

 

[DMG]

It's not that misleading. Port priority is a blanket term: your priority can determine whether you win in PSA trades, win in grab trades, etc. Port priority does not imply always being in a higher or lower slot than the opponent. You could aim for lower or higher priority: if anything, I'd rather clarify what spectrum of priority I want instead of saying PSA, just to further explain or hope they understand exactly what side that means.

 

[cisyphus]

And when I hear "port priority" I think of it in melee terms of being 1 > 2 > 3 > 4. Chill.

 

[Cubelarooso]

With the latest update, Ganondorf has received a notable increase in power and popularity, so I think he'd be a good place to start discussion.
Ganon is one of the characters I've the most experience against in terms of time, and the most in terms of players. Despite this, I don't really have it on lock down like I should. Here's what I know, though.

If you're hit with the first kick of Dsmash, DI up to avoid the second. If you are hit with the back hit, DI down and in front of Ganondorf to survive. It may seem like the second kick has a varied hitboxes that you'd DI differently, but that's because of knockback stacking from the first kick.
If hit by Usmash, DI away for survival and to avoid the second. DI dash attack towards him, Dtilt away, Tipman upwards, and dthrow away. Most the rest of his attacks have standard angles: DI down/away to avoid followups (mostly against jab, Uair, Nair, or Utilt) and up/towards to survive (everything he has can kill honestly).

Spotdodge is really good in this matchup, especially if he's in the air. He deals massive shieldstun and can really damage it, and you never want to get stabbed by him. On the other hand, he has some considerable lag you can abuse, especially if you screw up his L-cancel (which a spotdodge is liable to do, considering his hitlag). Wiz Kick moves so slowly, though, it can hit you anyway, so I think rolling behind him is the best option.

Don't feel safe just 'cus he's above you: Dair breaks brains. The ideal position is behind him when he's high in the air, moving to below when he gets too near the ground to get Dair out, and far away when he's on the ground.

Aerial Flame Choke has some nasty range, so if he's higher than the ledge then avoid going off-stage unless a Ganoncide would be to your favor. Rather, pelt him with Slime to force him down, then grab the ledge as soon as he gets level with it to block a Choke sweetspot, and be prepared to ledgedash Up-B if he Chokes onstage.
Once he's below, you can go after him, but I prefer to just hold the ledge. His landing is plenty laggy enough to punish even after waiting out his option to pull back to grab an abandoned ledge. Be patient, and refresh as necessary. Remember he can stall a bit now, so don't get up until he's onstage or dead.
Be sure to walltech if he catches you with Up-B. The grab lasts 28 frames, so don't input it too soon. You can't buffer a tech during hitlag, but you will trigger the cooldown timer, so try not input during one of the zaps.
If he does get the ledge, back up and shoot Slime.

You'll want to recover high against him. Throw some Slime when you're far out, but stay uncommitted when you get close. Fair can outspeed him if he comes head on, and Cyclone can fly above him if he comes from below. Either way should guarantee a landing, but you'll still need a couple more defensive calls to reset. If you are low, you need to use Luigi's crazy ledge grab range or be confident with your ledge-techs; he has loads of options for hitting sweetspot attempts while staying safely onstage. Don't forget you can airdodge, too, but that'll only be truly safe if he's really come out after you or if you're already near the ground.

Approaching is not easy and not wise. Most Luigi's stuff is out-ranged, out-prioritized, and can just be tanked through at low-percents. In particular, Cyclone is pretty bad here, and I wouldn't suggest Ftilt either. Rather, dance around him with WD's, sidesteps, rolls, and occasional Bairs, mostly keeping your distance, and be ready and able to respond when in Kick and Choke ranges. Lock him down with Slime when he gets himself in an awkward position, and go in for a grab (ideally), Dsmash (for the horizontal range), or Usmash (for the vertical) when he really messes up.
Honestly, although I know that this is what I'm doing when I'm winning, I don't actually know how to do it.

I'll go over my thoughts on stages shortly, but in the meantime: GHZ or PS2?



Other 3.5 threats which I think should prioritize discussion are Fox, Marth, Sheik, Falcon, and Mario.

 

[Cubelarooso]

First off, I should say that I think Yoshi's Island and Norfair are universally undesirable Luigi stages.
On YI, the blarggwiches don't do too much for Luigi, the Shyguys get in Green Missile's way, and the slopes mess with WD's, GM, and Slime. Then again, the slopes do allow one to cancel GM early, and the long platform gives Luigi a second ground to play with.
Norfair, though, is just terrible. The high, spaced-out platforms wreck havoc on Luigi's low airspeed, and otherwise just don't do anything for him. The low ceiling's bad for a floaty like him, even worse if he's on a platform, yet he can't really use the platforms for his multitude of vertical kill options. The sides are on the "close" end of "medium," and it's surprising how easy it is to get stuck under the stage.
On the other hand, Final D is usually Luigi's best option, and always near the top.

Against Ganondorf, Luigi obviously doesn't want Yoshi's Story or WarioWare due to size and blastzones. On the flipside, Ganon obviously doesn't want Dreamland.
FoD is another to avoid. Ganon can do some mean stuff with the low platforms, and those same screw up Luigi's grab stuff and trip up his ground movement. The small size and close sides aren't doing any favors either, but the high ceiling is nice.
The others are up to judgement, based on how one plays Luigi and how the opponent plays Ganon, so try to notice.

Battlefield is great for vertical play. Luigi can maneuver the stage quite well, and the platforms are great if that's your thing. The platforms are wide, close together horizontally and vertically, and Luigi's jump height means he can easily reach the top floor without using the middle.
Go here if you want to edgecancel stuff: Missiles, SJP's landing, Fairs to string them together. The plats also allow a lot of Vududash options, can be shield-slid off of, and used as landings to extend combos. Flame Choke is less threatening on platforms, and Luigi can dance around without fear of being caught by Wizard Foot.
They also give an escape from grab stuff, so don't expect that. Be aware that Ganondorf can make a lot of use of platforms, too. Wavelands and edgecancels can boost his mobility more than Luigi's, the later being usable with Choke and Foot. He's great at attacking through platforms, and can threaten multiple from a single position. And if the Ganon likes Tipmans, BF makes those easy and effective.

Smashville is if you're creative. The platform can be used for some neat stuff, including actual kills off Bthrow. When it's off-stage it provides a safe haven that can be defended with Slimeballs, but also sieged with the same if Ganondorf tries to use it. Luigi can chase it better than Ganon, can reach it better with Up-B when recovering (and edgecancel the landing easier), and can shoot for it with GM. And when it's not there, Ganon can't escape grab stuff.
The downsides are subtle, but potent. The stage is kinda small, with kinda low ceiling and sides that are close when the platforms there. Stage spiking is pretty harsh, and the thin ledge lips really complement Ganon's ability to hit below them, so be practiced in ledgeteching. They also don't like Missile. Ganon gets more than Luigi from drifting to the platform to recover. But the most important by far is what the platform does for Ganondorf's edgeguarding. Ganon, like Luigi, can't usually go too far out, but the platform allows him to do so and to hit with his incredibly destructive aerials, or even a ground move, right near the edge. Youch!

PS2's like Final D. It's big, the biggest, so you can go fast, with flat space to grab at. This also makes it pretty hard for Ganon to get around Slime. Really, the plats' only real role in this matchup is to edgecancel Missiles and ruin Luigi's grabs. The sides are kinda far, which is in Luigi's favor, and the walls are vertical. The platform being so far in means Ganon can't Dark Dive onto it, which isn't really a lost option for Luigi's Up-B.
However, it does restrict Luigi's ledge-options, as it makes ledgejump -> waveland-on-platform really slow and vulnerable. Being big means Misfire and Cyclone can't cover as much of it, and you'll actually want to be good at going fast. If you don't have your spacing and reaction down pat, you'll eat the Foot. The main downside is is the low ceiling. If you go here, you'll want to know that you can land Up-B's better than they can DACUS, that they'll fall for Nair traps and not see that WD Usmash coming, and that you'll respond to Dairs with spot-dodges rather than shields or attacks.

GHZ's like a foil to PS2. It's mostly flat, so it has the same grab and Slime potential, and generally is good for your ground game. Missile and Cyclone can be especially threatening. The ledges have full wall, which helps for Missile, and you can tech off of them if Daired. The platform doesn't do much, and it's hard to Missile, but going so high means Luigi can Up-B onto it, and it allows high-up Nairs for the kill. The high ceiling makes edgeguarding more important, so this is the place if that's your strength.
But it's small, so you've less room to work with, and the sides are close, so Luigi gets less of his long-distance recovery. Small size is also dangerous for Luigi's shield slide (especially against Ganon's massive pushback), and means he can get you to the edge with fewer Chokes. And like PS2, you'll rely a lot on ledgedashes.

Distant Planet's basically PS2. I'd prefer PS2, though.

Lylat Cruise… you better know what you're doing. Both with the stage, and with the matchup. I wouldn't say it's entirely in Ganon's favor, but it seems like there are better options. It's kinda big, with okay sides and ceiling, and the slants and platforms can be fun for Missile. The platforms being small and pervasive makes the main draw of this stage platform-tech-read -> sweetspot Up-B, imo.
But they're kinda split up, hence hard for Luigi to traverse. Luigi can Usmash through them at specific spots, but I dunno where, and Ganon's much better at it. Plus he can Dair through them. They ruin any grabs, too. It's easy to get caught under the stage, so you can't be sloppy with Rising Cyclone and Missile (and can't farm Misfires). Ganondorf also has an easier time putting you under, and an easier time getting himself out. In previous versions I've also had it poop on my ledgedash.

Skyworld is like expert Battlefield. Luigi can get around much better than Ganon, and the sides and ceiling are splendid. Much of Smashville's safe-haven-platform applies to the right side of Skyworld, but it's more dangerous so don't rely on it. It has a lot of flat, so go for the grabs and Slime. Don't be afraid to camp the top platform, and Missiling onto it isn't too dangerous. One neat fact to remember is that, on the right side, if Luigi ledgedrop -> double-jumps, he can make it onto the platform by Uairing.
The main stage is small, so try not to chill there. The platforms aren't great for edge-cancelling Missile, but they help out Ganon's recovery a lot if you don't remember to cover them.



Also, I've been playing a lot against Samus, and I think the matchup warrants a lot less Nair, a lot more Uair. Samus is floaty, so that lower knockback and higher reach really help out. Plus she has her own Nair to catch you with, while she's relatively defenseless below. Unless she Bombs.

 

[1+1=3]

Yo, does anyone else have a bit of trouble in Mario MUs?

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Yo, does anyone else have a bit of trouble in Mario MUs?

I did in 3.02 because of his fireballs. But I'm not too sure how i feel about it now

 

[weegee the green wonder]

I always had trouble vs. Other Luigi's any tips

 

[1+1=3]

I did in 3.02 because of his fireballs. But I'm not too sure how i feel about it now

I actually haven't played against a Mario in 3.5 yet.

 

[scuba_steve757]

3.5 Mario feels the same as 3.02 Mario just with a worse d-aerial and worse recovery. There are a few people around my area that have good Marios and they just pill spam whenever I pick luigi

 

[1+1=3]

It's a pretty valid thing to do if the Luigi can't figure out how to work around it.

 

[scuba_steve757]

Since we're talking about matchups, any advice for Ness? I have a tough time getting around the f-air grab setups and rising aerial combos with luigi. I typically switch to g&w and have a little easier time

 

[MURP]

3.6 will (hopefully) be out soon, so I'd like to hear people's final opinions on Luigi's 3.5 matchups.

Keep in mind that I have limited experience with some of these matchups and I'm quite open to input from others. Luigi goes even or close to even with most characters in the game, but loses to more characters than he beats. These are my opinions:


35-65


40-60


45-55


50-50


55-45


60-40


65-35


Feel free to reply if you want my reasoning.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

3.6 will (hopefully) be out soon, so I'd like to hear people's final opinions on Luigi's 3.5 matchups.

Keep in mind that I have limited experience with some of these matchups and I'm quite open to input from others. Luigi goes even or close to even with most characters in the game, but loses to more characters than he beats. These are my opinions:


35-65


40-60


45-55


50-50


55-45


60-40


65-35


Feel free to reply if you want my reasoning.

I think spacies currently are 45-55 spacies. They're pretty easy to combo and shine spike from fox is not a huge deal now because of the dpad special. I do have more trouble vs falco but that's probably because I can't PS his lazers too well. I think a Luigi who knows how to do that will have a pretty easy time vs him. You just have to be a bit cautious in these mu's though.

I think we beat ness 60-40. He's easy to combo and pretty easy to edgeugard. Ness's predictable approaches make it easy to bait him with wavedash in and out and dash dances since he really doesn't have much of an answer to those.

Kirby is probably 55-45 us. He's one of those chars that can easily edgeguard us even with the dpad down b. Kirby crouching means that grabbing him is a pain, and i believe fireball goes through crouch, but I'm not quite too sure. But aside from that, we are able to escape his dthrow cheese with our incredibly good tech roll and our aerials can easily wall him out since they are able to outrange his.

We beat zelda 60-40. Pretty easy to juggle, easy to edgegaurd, dies extremely early to our moves,and her new dins are just useless at keeping us out. We just need to watch out for lightning kicks. Her approaches also kind of suck and she has pretty much nothing to use to force us to approach, so we can just bait her out and punish her moves.

I think rob might be 40-60 rob just because of how easily he can juggle us with uairs and keep us out with projectiles such as his neutral b and down b. His side b makes fireballs almost useless. Rob also edgegaurds us with ease because he has boosts to do it safely.

IDK about pit, but i agree with that row otherwise. I also am fine with the 50-50's aside from maybe ganon, who i think beats us because of...well every one of his aerials being safe on our shield and his insane edgegaurd on us.

I don't think ICS are 60-40. We don't have much to separate them aside from nair and down b (only if we are able to get all hits) and even then, those moves last forever, so by the time they're done, popo can just get nana back. I'll need to play vs this character more, but I don't see it being that much in our favor.

Anyone else? Thoughts?

 

[Cubelarooso]

The characters I have the most experience against (reasonable confidence in my judgement):
+1:
0:
-1:

Characters I have more sporadic experience against (slight confidence in my judgement):
+1:
0:
-1:
-2:

Characters I have little experience against (no confidence in my judgement):
+1:
0:
-1:
-2:

 

[MURP]

I think spacies currently are 45-55 spacies. They're pretty easy to combo and shine spike from fox is not a huge deal now because of the dpad special. I do have more trouble vs falco but that's probably because I can't PS his lazers too well. I think a Luigi who knows how to do that will have a pretty easy time vs him. You just have to be a bit cautious in these mu's though.

I think we beat ness 60-40. He's easy to combo and pretty easy to edgeugard. Ness's predictable approaches make it easy to bait him with wavedash in and out and dash dances since he really doesn't have much of an answer to those.

Kirby is probably 55-45 us. He's one of those chars that can easily edgeguard us even with the dpad down b. Kirby crouching means that grabbing him is a pain, and i believe fireball goes through crouch, but I'm not quite too sure. But aside from that, we are able to escape his dthrow cheese with our incredibly good tech roll and our aerials can easily wall him out since they are able to outrange his.

We beat zelda 60-40. Pretty easy to juggle, easy to edgegaurd, dies extremely early to our moves,and her new dins are just useless at keeping us out. We just need to watch out for lightning kicks. Her approaches also kind of suck and she has pretty much nothing to use to force us to approach, so we can just bait her out and punish her moves.

I think rob might be 40-60 rob just because of how easily he can juggle us with uairs and keep us out with projectiles such as his neutral b and down b. His side b makes fireballs almost useless. Rob also edgegaurds us with ease because he has boosts to do it safely.

IDK about pit, but i agree with that row otherwise. I also am fine with the 50-50's aside from maybe ganon, who i think beats us because of...well every one of his aerials being safe on our shield and his insane edgegaurd on us.

I don't think ICS are 60-40. We don't have much to separate them aside from nair and down b (only if we are able to get all hits) and even then, those moves last forever, so by the time they're done, popo can just get nana back. I'll need to play vs this character more, but I don't see it being that much in our favor.

Anyone else? Thoughts?

I don't see how spacies could be 45-55. Luigi's combos are easy (downsmash into misfire is hilarious), which makes the matchup quite close at low levels of play when the spacies don't know to punish Luigi hard, but Luigi loses neutral pretty badly to all three of them and they all have the tools to get low percent KOs, even with his improved recovery. Sure, Fox needs to shine a couple more times to ensure the KO, Wolf needs to down air twice to force him to use his jump and then finish him off, and Falco usually needs to actually hit Luigi into the blast zone to take the stock early, but it's easy for them to KO him with how linear his recovery is. As sad as it is, even when Luigi can powershield lasers, Falco can still camp the top platform on tri-platform stages Westballz-style, and control the pace of the match despite the powershielding. Fox's and Wolf's mobility alone make the matchup pretty hard to manage. I could see them being 40-60, as Luigi certainly has some good tools, but I can't see them being 45-55.

Ness is a strange matchup. I don't think Ness is particularly easy or hard to combo (though his double jump makes jumping out of strings very unsafe), and I'd actually argue his combos on Luigi are roughly as good as Luigi's combos are on him (though they certainly don't do as much percent). Ness isn't particularly difficult to edgeguard, but it's almost trivially easy for Ness to edgeguard Luigi. His down air basically invalidates all of Luigi's recovery options. Fireballs are not useful against Ness, and it's not too hard for Ness to get Luigi in the air and/or back air him, setting up for an easy edgeguard. I also don't think there are any particularly good stages for Luigi in this matchup. I've seen @ Boiko say this matchup is in Luigi's favor, but not much else from other Ness or Luigi players.

Can Luigi avoid all of Kirby's down throw followups before he hits the ground? My general impression of the matchup is that Kirby's damage output rivals Luigi's, Kirby edgeguards harder, they can't really combo each other, Luigi usually can't grab Kirby, and Luigi probably wins neutral due to Kirby's weaker mobility and range.

Zelda was a brain fart on my part. I put her there without a second thought because of how annoying the matchup was in 3.0. It's much better for Luigi than what I put, though I think it's closer to 50-50 than 60-40. With Luigi's fall speed and air speed, he's just begging to get hit by Zelda's kicks. I'm not sure why you say she's easy to edgeguard. If she's far enough out that her options with her up special are limited, then sure, but her recovery is quite good and has a lot of mixup potential.

I was unsure of whether to put ROB under 45-55 or 40-60. I don't generally have trouble dealing with ROB's item play or even his burst movement, but you're definitely right that his edgeguards are basically unavoidable for Luigi.

I was also debating putting Pit in 50-50. Few people play the character, but he can make Luigi's life pretty miserable. Arrows make recovering, and even just getting back down to the ground, difficult. Other than that though, Luigi does fine.

Ganondorf destroys Luigi if you try to engage him, but he's not too hard to beat if you just run away and fireball on bigger stages, while using invincible ledgedashes to get openings and comboing into misfire to KO him early. You basically just have to lame him out. All of the Ganondorf players I've talked to think Luigi wins, while Luigi players generally think Ganondorf wins.

I don't have much experience against Ice Climbers in Project M (I've only played against them with Luigi in 3.5 a few times). In Melee, however, I think the matchup is quite close, and Luigi's gotten significantly better at knocking Nana off of the stage once they are separated (I generally just misfire her and she'll die at basically any percent) while Ice Climbers' punish game on Luigi seems weaker to me. Popo may as well just be a worse version of Luigi, and they don't really edgeguard him hard. Getting them separated is quite difficult on flat stages, as they can wall Luigi out quite effectively, but not really a problem on stages with platforms.

 

[Boiko]

Ness is a strange matchup. I don't think Ness is particularly easy or hard to combo (though his double jump makes jumping out of strings very unsafe), and I'd actually argue his combos on Luigi are roughly as good as Luigi's combos are on him (though they certainly don't do as much percent). Ness isn't particularly difficult to edgeguard, but it's almost trivially easy for Ness to edgeguard Luigi. His down air basically invalidates all of Luigi's recovery options. Fireballs are not useful against Ness, and it's not too hard for Ness to get Luigi in the air and/or back air him, setting up for an easy edgeguard. I also don't think there are any particularly good stages for Luigi in this matchup. I've seen @ Boiko say this matchup is in Luigi's favor, but not much else from other Ness or Luigi players.

Ness' strong combo game and punishes are pretty much non-existent in this MU, and Luigi's still exist and do outrageous amounts of damage. I don't think it's far from even, but I'd definitely put it in Luigi's favor 55-45.

 

[Kneato]

Matchup from 's Perspective (+3 has Luigi winning)

+3:
+2:
+1:
0:

-1:
-2:
-3:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

Not my opinion. This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

http://prnt.sc/a7zm6k

This is mine. I forgot squirt and ivy in this but Squirtle is even and ivysaur we lose imo