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[m-1, 14, 28] avril lavigne mafia - over

Xiivi

So much for friendship huh...
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Vote Count 20

Zensei (2) - MarshEE, Macman
Frozenflame (1) - Vanderzant
Meta-Kirby (1) - Rockin
Omni (1) - Frozenflame
Nicholas1024 (1) - Tom
Macman (1) -
Overswarm
Not Voting (4) - Zensei, Nicholas1024, Omni, Meta-Kirby

With 11 Alive, It Takes A Vote Of 6 To Lynch!

Deadline is Friday, August 6th at 11:59:59 PM EST.
 

Xivii

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lol Omni.

I like Nich less and less with each posts. I originally had a townish read on him, but he keeps getting scummier. Plus I just don't like his WIFOM/Metagame playstyle. I would totally be ok with getting rid of him.

The opposite with Frozen. I like him more as he posts more. I don't think he should be the lynch for today.

I'm down with a macman or vanderzant lynch.
I agree with this.
 

vanderzant

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(pardon if this has errors, trying to write this in my homeroom during school)

I didn't imply you were inactive, I implied that you didn't really stand out as a power player on Day 1.
My Day 1 suspicions still hold, especially MarshEE, and I've already told you about Macman.

Meh, your reaction to being #2 on my lynch list especially when there is only one lynch in a day is sorta frantic. I've already said that you should consider yourself a very distant #2, if EVEN #2.
Not standing out is just a weaker way of saying that I'm inactive. It's like "I dunno, vander could be scum but I'm not that sure, because I didn't pay much attention to him." It's still an implication (but a weak one at that).

Yeah but you didn't mention them AT ALL when you were giving your lynch suspects at the start of the day. You just said Nich > Vand > Frozen. Why didn't you take them into consideration in that post?

I think it's pretty off to just name me as your #2 lynch choice at the time, when you admitted to not really noticing me Day 1. That's just a terrible reason.


When have I said that I'm worried, or that I'm "frantic." I'm not concerned that at the time you wanted to lynch me, I'm concerned that you'd pick someone as a 2nd lynch choice with such little thought.

Your self meta (regarding emotion and stuff) also isn't a very good reason for you being town. Especially considering how self-aware you are.

I also disagree with your notion that Nich's claim makes him a better lynch candidate than another inactive (or something you said along those lines).

I'd still rather lynch Frozen, Mac, maybe zen but I'd probably be fine with you at this stage too.

Vote: Meta-Kirby

@Rockin: I don't really care for those sorts of questions that you aimed at MK/Nich iirc. What sort of info are you trying to get from those questions?

Overall, I'm thinking Frozen should still go, same reasons as earlier (but I'll get to his reads after I have dinner, and it's at least nice to see him a bit more active).

But I'm fine with culling an inactive like Mac/Zen too. And maybe MK.

Omni said:
uhhh besides nich and me id try to get rid of uhhhh maybe someone who's waaaay too dumb to be scum like metakirby.
:mad:
 

Nicholas1024

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Hey Zensei, what exactly happened between your last summary of my posts and this summary to make you not like me? Because I haven't gone out on a limb or done much meta in between those posts... Please be more specific.

@Omni
I'm not sold on Meta-kirby being more dumb than scum. I agree that "dumb or scum" is the question to ask here, but while kirbyoshi can be the epitome of dumb sometimes (sorry Kirbyoshi, but it's true), MK... not so much. His reasons are fail, and he ignored his earlier suspicions to post a top 3 scumlist that lines up exactly with who the majority finds suspicious. I think he's scum trying to blend in and join a bandwagon. Oh yeah, and Meta-kirby was on the kirbyoshi mislynch as well. So, in accordance,

Vote: Meta Kirby
 

Rockin

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@rockin
You're forgetting that I was one of the few people who didn't think kirbyoshi was scum (I wasn't fully sold on his towniness, but I wasn't on his wagon). Also, you've tunneled me in the last couple games (aside from DBZ) we've been in together, I've turned up town in each of those.
You also forget that several others thought he wasn't too scummy either, but at the same time lynched him based off of information.

Didn't like your quick accussion of me tunneling you. Also, in those games where I've tunneled you, I felt you was scummy in those with legitimate reason.

If this is your answer to my question, then it's a pretty crappy answer.

You should believe that I'm town because this is how I play when I'm a townie. If you need proof, see games like Werewolves of Miller's Hollow Mafia, PokeMafia, and Smash Bros. Mafia. In each of those games, I used emotion like people claim I do now. It's just the way I get when I get passionate about something. Like in Smash Bros, when I was pissed at SSBF for scum self-hammering, realizing only after (after the rage subsided) that scum has the chance to do that for THEIR benefit.
So now I'm transitioning from emotion-->action and I believe you should believe I'm town because I'll have alot to offer in the future. I consider myself very good at picking scum in later days as opposed to earlier ones, so I hope that's something of worth.
Explain to me each of the situation of Hallo Mafia and PokeMafia of when you used emotion and how you handled it (while town).I'll further touch up on this post once you do.

My claim and my laziness are not in any way connected, and for you to suspect that is stupidity of the highest order, Meta kirby. I mean, come on! The gravedigger role is an uncommon role, it's even rarer for gravediggers to be told that they're gravediggers, there's been no verification of a tracker/watcher style role, AND it has NO positive value whatsoever to town! I mean, for scum to claim gravedigger out of the blue is just plain stupid. It draws attention to the scum, and for questionable gain (the ability to have a guy with no worries of being tracked to the kill, I guess. But consider that there wasn't even a kill last night.)
doesn't matter how 'rare' it is. A role is a role, no matter what.

So if someone claimed 'Town Bulletproof Doublevoter,' should we auto consider it to be real JUST because it's a rare claim?


I mean, there's plenty of people with low activity levels, and you single out ME (who is far from the worst in such things), and pretend that it's because of my CLAIM?!? That's pretty FAIL right there...
Nice AtE. You're better then that, Nich.

Vanz - I'm trying to gain information. From D1 to now, I noticed some stuff and wanted to get a clear indication why such and such happened. One of them was that you Vanz was barely in any conflict with any player, and I think I remember only Omni getting into a slight conflict with you. I just want to make sure they wern't too focused on the subject at hand to not focus on other people.
 

Overswarm

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We have little to no information, and Macman is probably the most competent of the inactives that could be up for lynching. Late game he would be harder to hit as scum; we can force others to post but it is unlikely Macman will.

Is anyone against an inactive/unhelpful lynch today? I'd like to see more discussion. Ya know, NOT me/omni and people talking about me/omni.
 

Rockin

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Xiivi. FF is voting me.
You sober now?

OS - I'm against it soley for the fact there's better lynch targets out there (Nich and Meta Kirby). I feel we can get a insight of Zensei's and Macman's alignment probably in another day, but I wouldn't be so quick to lynch them today
 

Nicholas1024

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You also forget that several others thought he wasn't too scummy either, but at the same time lynched him based off of information.

Didn't like your quick accussion of me tunneling you. Also, in those games where I've tunneled you, I felt you was scummy in those with legitimate reason.

If this is your answer to my question, then it's a pretty crappy answer.
So? You can't twist my defense of a townie into a scumtell, Rockin.

I hadn't even accused you of tunneling me yet (although I had a feeling it would develop to that). I just stated that you've tunneled me previously in our last few games together. Also, legitimate reason? Please. You were the only one both in Tree stump mafia AND in SSB mafia that thought I was remotely scummy. Guess what? You were wrong. And you're wrong here.


*snip*
doesn't matter how 'rare' it is. A role is a role, no matter what.

So if someone claimed 'Town Bulletproof Doublevoter,' should we auto consider it to be real JUST because it's a rare claim?
On the contrary, it's LESS likely to be real because it's a rare claim. The point is that scum claiming a rare, useless role like gravedigger out of the blue is completely moronic. I don't recall a single instance of any mafia ever doing such a thing.

[/QUOTE]

Nice AtE. You're better then that, Nich.
So I was slightly emotional when I wrote that. So sue me. You have to admit that the reasoning there was pretty fail...
 

Overswarm

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OS - I'm against it soley for the fact there's better lynch targets out there (Nich and Meta Kirby). I feel we can get a insight of Zensei's and Macman's alignment probably in another day, but I wouldn't be so quick to lynch them today
We need information. We can't just go around lynching people who we don't like on the offchance that they're scum. Yeah, Nich is a tunnel rat and he isn't pro-town at all. But, we can't get any more information from him at all. Nich always seems scummy to me; he's seemed scummy to me when I'm scum.

What we need now isn't a hunch and a grudge, we need more information. As the inactive - active ratio goes more in favor of inactives, we gain less information each day.

We currently have a yakuza and a failed night kill or a recruiter.

If there's a failed NKill and a yakuza.... the yakuza can grab ahold of anyone and we're going to need players that we can get info from. Macman is my choice solely because I know we can't get info from him. What's worse, the more inactives, the more clean targets for scum. There are no connections between inactives by definition; them dying gives us little to no information. It just improves our odds.

If there's a recruiter, we're screwed late game if we've left a bunch of inactives around.


If someone has another inactive they'd like to push for, go ahead and bring it up. I've got my eye on Nich, but we need more information and this game is moving slow. We kill macman and we speed it up and get more information.

Lynching someone you just "feel" is scummy isn't enough at this point, we need information rather than a gamble.
 

Omni

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I thought kirbyoshi was our info lynch.

We can try to hit scum today. Info will pour once flips or pr results start coming through.
 

Overswarm

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I thought kirbyoshi was our info lynch.
He was; fortunately/unfortunately there were no other kills and we have a huge list of inactives, so we don't have too much to go on.

We can try to hit scum today. Info will pour once flips or pr results start coming through.
Think of it as avoiding a null gain scenario.

In a game where you win by doing specific actions, but you don't know what those actions ARE, you may need to make short-term choices that WON'T let you win, but will make it more likely to guarantee a win in the future.


[example]

The game Mastermind, for example, is a game I loved playing with my brothers. You'd have a certain number of pegs with varying colors in a certain order, then your opponent would have to guess what those pegs were. You are told whether or not a color you are using is used somewhere as well as if you get it in the right spot.

Realistically, you have to get that ONE order. You could win in one turn. However, routinely using random patterns until you get it won't work. It is much better to make dumb plays to get a solid base of information and go from there; choosing to use two black and two red for example, increases your odds of determining the amount of reds or blacks used in the winning pattern moreso than using a white, blue, red, and black. The amount of variations to get to a guaranteed truth is MUCH smaller when you use less colors.

[/example]


In this game, we have a few issues:


Scum (yak/recruiter?) that may or may not have a night kill
Town (inactives and actives)

At this point, it doesn't MATTER if Nich is acting scummy or not. We can lynch him tomorrow if we want. What we DO NOT have is information on Macman.

If we lynch Nich and he's scum: AWESOME.
If we lynch Nich and he's not: SUCK.

That is a 50/50 chance.

If we lynch Macman and he's scum: AWESOME.
If we lynch Macman and he's not: We've just removed someone who has little to no connections in the game.

It's awesome win to slight win. There's no null gain here. We get SOMETHING.

If we let players like that live to end game, it is true that they could be useful. I don't disagree with the possibility.

However, I believe lynching someone like macman will make the end game more about playing mafia and less about guessing.


Omni, imagine the final three were you, me, and macman. This is not preferrable, as we have little to no information on macman; the only thing we could hypothesize on is our own connections.


Macman has continually not used reasoning in his posts, but merely stated an opinion. I don't believe this is acceptable for the current state of the game, and lynching an inactive today will help us towards end game because we aren't going to get another chance later.
 

Rockin

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So? You can't twist my defense of a townie into a scumtell, Rockin.
Just giving examples of where I've tunneled you and you came up town isn't a legitimate defense. It's just previous times where I thought you were scum. THIS isn't a previous game. It's a active game.

I hadn't even accused you of tunneling me yet (although I had a feeling it would develop to that). I just stated that you've tunneled me previously in our last few games together. Also, legitimate reason? Please. You were the only one both in Tree stump mafia AND in SSB mafia that thought I was remotely scummy. Guess what? You were wrong. And you're wrong here.
I will tell myself that I was wrong once I see your flip.



On the contrary, it's LESS likely to be real because it's a rare claim. The point is that scum claiming a rare, useless role like gravedigger out of the blue is completely moronic. I don't recall a single instance of any mafia ever doing such a thing.
My claim and my laziness are not in any way connected, and for you to suspect that is stupidity of the highest order, Meta kirby. I mean, come on! The gravedigger role is an uncommon role, it's even rarer for gravediggers to be told that they're gravediggers, there's been no verification of a tracker/watcher style role, AND it has NO positive value whatsoever to town! I mean, for scum to claim gravedigger out of the blue is just plain stupid. It draws attention to the scum, and for questionable gain (the ability to have a guy with no worries of being tracked to the kill, I guess. But consider that there wasn't even a kill last night.)
Rare....uncommon, it doesn't matter.

I think you just admitted that your role is less likely to be real.

and even so, it's not that uncommon for mafia to claim something legitimate. It happens. That's what good Mafias do.


So I was slightly emotional when I wrote that. So sue me. You have to admit that the reasoning there was pretty fail...
Yes, it was fail.

But again, you're better then that.

We need information. We can't just go around lynching people who we don't like on the offchance that they're scum. Yeah, Nich is a tunnel rat and he isn't pro-town at all. But, we can't get any more information from him at all. Nich always seems scummy to me; he's seemed scummy to me when I'm scum.
Who says we're lynching people we 'don't like?' I'm pretty sure everyone here is just lynching people who they feel are scummy, including myself.

What we need now isn't a hunch and a grudge, we need more information. As the inactive - active ratio goes more in favor of inactives, we gain less information each day.
The thing is though we got a fair amount of information. We know there's some sort of recruiter running around. Right now, we got two people who's doing AtE, and two more that were coasting/not posting enough content. What kind of information are we looking for here? o.o



If there's a failed NKill and a yakuza.... the yakuza can grab ahold of anyone and we're going to need players that we can get info from. Macman is my choice solely because I know we can't get info from him. What's worse, the more inactives, the more clean targets for scum. There are no connections between inactives by definition; them dying gives us little to no information. It just improves our odds.
That underline right there ; Which is exactly why I perfer to lynch scummy players and not inactives. I much rather use them as a fall back lynch in anycase. Like I said, I find neither one of them scummy because both are posting a bit more and are adding a fair amount of content.
 

Nicholas1024

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Just giving examples of where I've tunneled you and you came up town isn't a legitimate defense. It's just previous times where I thought you were scum. THIS isn't a previous game. It's a active game.
Um... I was saying that you can't twist my defense of kirbyoshi-town into something scummy. Anyways, I'm just saying you have quite the track record of being wrong on this count.

I will tell myself that I was wrong once I see your flip.
Yep, now you're tunneling.





Rare....uncommon, it doesn't matter.
What's your point?

I think you just admitted that your role is less likely to be real.

and even so, it's not that uncommon for mafia to claim something legitimate. It happens. That's what good Mafias do.
Yeah, I'm pointing out that there is zero motive for a mafia to claim gravedigger out of the blue.

You know Rockin, you're making less sense the more you attack me. Maybe you should just step back, take a breather, and look at it again with a fresh eye.

I'm guilty of doing that relentless attack as well though. That sort of thing turns out to be almost a ritual for me every game... I attack someone relentlessly D1, am often (but not always) wrong, and then I take a step back, re-evaluate, and play better the rest of the way. For examples, just check UCM, Scum wars (I was right about KevinM there though), and Tree stump.
 

Omni

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Anyone dying at this point will give us good info. I'd rather not lynch for info because it gives people free wagons without commiting to anything. See Chaco.

Uh Nick ain't the play.
 

Omni

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I still don't understand MK voting then unvoting Frozen really fast a few pages back.
 

#HBC | FrozeηFlame

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I don't drink, but Omni's behavior made me want to play drunk mafia. Just join a game and only post drunk.
I've played mafia drunk IRL a bunch of times. omfg is it a blast. If you want overly dramatic LYLO, drunk mafia is where its at. XD

@ Mod: As omni pointed out I am voting for him. Located here near the end: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10851898&postcount=746


@ People asking me who I think the play is/want to know who I'm suspicious of other than omni:

I still think Omni is the most scummy, and I'm working on breaking down post #591 to explain why a little bit better.

My other top two choice though are Zensei and vanderzant in that order.

I'm still reviewing Zensei but this post kind of summarizes the vibe I get from his play:

I knew your reasons for Flame, but I suppose I missed Mac. I figured he was more of a D1 target for you. I do not see why he would be a high recruit candidate though, unless he's a very great player that don't know about. So far that hasn't shown to me in this game. It seems like a requiter would recruit someone that has great play... and not someone who is likely to be put up on the block. Why do you think he would be a likely recruit candidate?

I don't disagree with you as him being a good choice for a lynch though. He has been useless. Also his: #262 contradicts his belief in his #359 (2 post after), unless the first one he was just making some joke, which just adds to what you're saying about him being useless. Also it was pretty weird how strongly he felt about me dying when he has done nothing himself and has no other suspects, only people he thinks is town.
It's like this very backseat approach with a tendency to deflect attention. Like in this post He goes from saying "Oh I must've missed Macman" suggesting he really doesn't know much about him or has a very good read, to eventually casting some suspicion on Macman by tossing out an alleged contradiction and a perceived flaw in his expression of reads. It very much makes me feel like Zensei is content to answer questions as they come and then just say "oh hey look over here at this little thing! It could be nothing buuuuuuut, etc. etc." and like just nudge at people.

As for Vanderzant his posts seem to have a spiteful theme regarding the KirbyYo lynch instead of me. He's hung up on this point which shows from his continual mentioning of how my lynch would have been "just as informative" and how people trying to justify the KirbyYo lynch instead of me have (as he claims) very minor points in that regard. These posts show what I'm talking about:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10826387&postcount=605
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10832256&postcount=641

Not too happy about getting that patriot claim to flip and get the word about potential recruiters out perhaps? I just find it strange that hes been hung up on that. Seems to be open to far too many lynches without really doing much to support any of the wagons he said he'd be open for.

Concerning a Mac lynch, as I said there's really no debating he has a ghostly presence in this game, but we kind of went over this whole debate about lynching inactives in either barhouse or Code Geass. Can't remember which. But yeah point is I don't feel he's the play because I feel like his type of playtyle becomes very easy to read later in the game (mostly because he's pretty straightforward with his stances) and that if we were to lynch him right now, we'd get relatively little information. As I said back when I debated this issue before (lynching inactives vs. people I thought to be legit scummy) it's much better to leave the inactives alive as NK fodder than to waste lynches on them. Anti-town NKers want to minimize the amount of info the town has to work with too, which makes people like Macman prime candidates for that. Might as well let them take out the trash than have us waste our lynches to get flips that won't help us at all.
 

Nicholas1024

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@Frozenflame
What makes you believe that mafia will NK inactives? First off, there's no guarantee there even is a conventional mafia with a NK, second off, mafia killing off actives instead of inactives leads to crappy situations like SSB mafia, d3 and onwards, where after Ryker and I were NK'd the game stagnated, and scum had an incredibly easy time winning.
 

Omni

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Also idk about Vand. He was against the KY lynch as I recall. Plus he jumped on the frozen wagon with me and OS. Don't see scum avoiding an easy lynch on a town patriot

his style is pretty odd, but his votes and actions have been ok
 

Tom

Bulletproof Doublevoter
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also, i am traveling from tomorrow morning until sunday, and might even go to the lake house with the fam upcoming for a few days. i will definitely let you all know when i know, as well as plant my vote for good if i have to leave.
 

vanderzant

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We have little to no information, and Macman is probably the most competent of the inactives that could be up for lynching. Late game he would be harder to hit as scum; we can force others to post but it is unlikely Macman will.

Is anyone against an inactive/unhelpful lynch today? I'd like to see more discussion. Ya know, NOT me/omni and people talking about me/omni.
Let's do it.

As for Vanderzant his posts seem to have a spiteful theme regarding the KirbyYo lynch instead of me. He's hung up on this point which shows from his continual mentioning of how my lynch would have been "just as informative" and how people trying to justify the KirbyYo lynch instead of me have (as he claims) very minor points in that regard. These posts show what I'm talking about:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10826387&postcount=605
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10832256&postcount=641
Ah Frozen... you put me between a rock and a hard place. Firstly to clarify, I was mulling over the "Frozen flip would of been just as good" point with Chaco because he strongly thought that Kirby was the ONLY option for a lynch. Which I just can't agree with. It doesn't mean I was of the polar opposite view that "Frozen was the ONLY good lynch" because near the end of Day 1, I voted Kirby (in case the day hadn't ended) to avoid a No Lynch.

Not too happy about getting that patriot claim to flip and get the word about potential recruiters out perhaps? I just find it strange that hes been hung up on that. Seems to be open to far too many lynches without really doing much to support any of the wagons he said he'd be open for.
It seems to be the flavour of the day. I agree with OS/Omni/Tom iirc, that a lot of people "need to die."
 

vanderzant

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Oh and after my analogy of the "rock," I was going to write something like:

I'm a bit annoyed that everyone seems to have backed off from wanting to lynch you, which is odd. But your stances are pretty decent.
 

Omni

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i havent backed off. im still waiting to hear marshee and a few others' analysis of frozen

frozen can die yo
 

Tom

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V/LA tentative til Sunday night.

unvote vote frozenflame

goodbye gentlemen. will keep you informed of my activity affairs
 

Omni

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3rd time asking: mk what was with your vote to instant unvote on frozen
 

Rockin

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MK< still waiting on you to explain what happen in both Hallow and Pokemafia in terms of how you handled the situation.
 

M.K

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Explain to me each of the situation of Hallo Mafia and PokeMafia of when you used emotion and how you handled it (while town).I'll further touch up on this post once you do.
Hallow - I was lynched D1, and although I kept refuting arguments, Mayling (scum) had convinced town to lynch me outright, so I get very frustrated with her. I ended up expressing that frustration in the posts, which ended up leading to "well since you're getting lynched anyways, GIVE US YOUR INFO". Understandable, but annoying nonetheless

PokeMafia - scum- I'm tentative to post, I don't post all that often, and when I do, it's very bland. I don't show emotion when I get votes on me, and I typically lay waayyyy down low.

SSB - Town neighborizer, very dumb role IMO. But anyways, like I explained earlier, SSBF self-voted as scum and ended the day. Before his flip, I went off about how bad of a player he was (yeeeeeah) and how doing that is such a bull**** move.
Typically, I reply with emotion when I wanna hammer home a point, I still gotta make the transition between talking **** and providing hard-hitting facts, but basically, I feel I am more emotional as a townie. ~
 

Omni

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If you refuse to answe let me know MK.

It's not that hard of a question that you need to get your scumbuddies to help answer it properly.
 
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