Mario Changes in 3.5

[Altanic]

I've noticed that there isn't a discussion for Mario's 3.5 changes on this board. What do you think should be changed about Mario in 3.5? I would say that either up-b or down-b could be shortened. Up-b, since his walljump helps his recovery a lot, or down-b since it goes so high. Maybe lessen damage from dsmash since it comes out so fast and can be followed up from many things? I think fireballs could definitely use a damage nerf, I think they did like 4-6% in Melee, and I think that's fair. 8% is a lot imo. Just throwing out some ideas. What do you guys think?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Doc's pills did that much in melee. The problem isn't the DMG, it's how there is not much risk in using them and how fast they can come out.

Something mario has that needs a NERF is dair. It's hitbox is comparable to falco's dair. It's to godlike. Nerf that and add more cool down with fireballs.


There has been talk in other threads.
w/e we say here is going to have little to effect on 3.5 mario.

 

[Altanic]

Oh really? I didn't know they did that much in Melee. I agree with your suggestions.
And yeah, I guess it really won't considering that 3.5 comes out in 2 days! :D

 

[Altanic]

Sorry Mods, you can delete this. I posted this before I saw the 3.5 trailer.

 

[Mr.Random]

Dair is fine. The only thing that was arguably broken was his fireballs and recovery. Everything else is fine. Mario only has two disjointed moves Dair and Fsmash. Besides Fireballs and Dair he has no way to control space.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Changelog is up, go check on the website. My opinions:

-Dair nerf is mostly necessary. It was too jank lol
- D-Throw has higher Knockback Growth, less optimal for Chaingrabs (still works lower %s I think)
- Walljump recovery nerfed in that you have to start it next to the wall when you Up+B, but lenience of input buffed.
- Fireballs, the nerf I wanted (less homogenization) happened, less damage, IASA is later.
- Cape doesn't damage people in shields (probably turns them around still)

Overall, Mario is still really good, just slightly less silly and more legitimate. We still have our plumber of plumbers, boys.

 

[yellowdee]

Is anyone having a hard time pulling off the new Up-B wall jump? The changelog said it should be easier assuming the wall condition is met, but one in three jumps tend to be a failure. Also. Every time I successfully execute one, grab onto the ledge, and immediately try for another one, I always fail. The older wall jumping mechanic felt like it was just too much fun to take out, so I thought they'd exempt it, but boy was I wrong.

I guess most other characters don't have many last-second options when it comes to recovery, so is that why this was done? It feels like it doesn't add much value to have to be touching the wall to do the upB walljump, because you can just do a regular wall jump at that point. Seems almost like they could've taken it out altogether.

I like the cape recovey nerf, and I think it would have been nice if they made the cape and down-b function more like Doc's did in melee instead of nerfing the up-B. I think this would still sufficiently nerf Mario's recovery. I actually liked the momentum-cancelling properties of that old down-B anyway.

 

[Shell]

It's a ~6 frame window and is overall harder, not easier, sorry. Pulling it off will require CPing a stage with vertical walls as well as little time in the lab mastering the technique. His recovery is still better than Melee Mario/Doc's though, so there's that.

 

[Michael Ma]

I just wish Mario remained the same

 

[Michael Ma]

I feel that Mario's approach options are very limited now with his fireballs/pills having the IASA later and Dair nerfed. I was watching Boss play today and it looked like he had a hard time approaching and getting in. Also kinda sad that the Up-B walljump has been changed, Anyone who agrees or disagrees?

 

[Altanic]

I was playing with some friends today and noticed something very odd about the new wall jump. I didn't get to experiment a whole lot, but this kind of confused me.
I noticed that Mario can wall jump out of up-b if you start on the ground, but not in the air, whether you are hugging the wall or not. We even did the frame-by-frame in debug mode and could not get the wall jump after jump -> up b. Am I missing something or is it supposed to be like this..?
I'm still doing quite well with Mario, but some matchups have become more difficult since you can't just spam and keep people out with fireballs. I don't mind it a whole lot, just need to adjust accordingly and improve movement spacing. I'm enjoying 3.5 a lot so far, but I really hope some can clarify the walljump thing I mentioned because that bothered me a lot today.

Notes about walljumping! vvv

You must to be hugging the wall at the beginning of your up-b while in the air. If you are on the ground you do not need to hug the wall. Be careful when using down-b to move in and hug the wall. After down-b is finished, it will actually push you away from the wall, so you have to move back into the wall and then up-b to get the walljump.

 

[Jonyc128]

The Sheik matchup is tougher since she can actually gimp us and we can't camp as much as before, not to mention I can't go deep with my edge guarding since wall jump is so difficult

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It's a ~6 frame window and is overall harder, not easier, sorry. Pulling it off will require CPing a stage with vertical walls as well as little time in the lab mastering the technique. His recovery is still better than Melee Mario/Doc's though, so there's that.

Does it work on the irregular walls of FD? If so, Fountain/Yoshi's x 2/GHZ/Wurrioware/FD makes a lot of stages that Mario's recovery is still plenty mix-uppable on (within certain zones at least).

 

[deadjames]

I don't like 3.5 Mario at all, making the walljump harder is blatantly bad design, either take it out or leave it alone artificial barriers are not the way to go. The fireball nerf is going to make all of his hard MUs even harder because now camping isn't an option, oh and the increased knockback on down throw is perhaps to worst nerf, dthrow>fair doesn't work anymore against any of the characters I've tried it on, I'm sorry, but that's just plain bull****, why would you take away a bnb that Doc has had since Melee?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I did it on YS. You just need to come in contact with the wall, some where early in the up b. Worked for me. But yea, that is a pretty notable nerf. Now on stages like smashville, just grabbing the edge could be enough to take a stock off mario.

@ deadjames boss made it work on wario and some other characters last night.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I don't like 3.5 Mario at all, making the walljump harder is blatantly bad design

Just wanted to say that it's not making the walljump harder - its restricting the areas from where Mario can use it. With cape and Down-B, Marios with good DI have the capability to get into WJ positions on the right stages and recover from deep. It's a saving grace v/s semi-spikes and meteors and can even be used as a mix-up in the right situations. Walljump was just overall made less safe and more situational - making it harder would be re-implementing the ridiculous 1 frame Melee window.

Mario could probably even still use it for deep edgeguards. It's just a lot trickier now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

No dude it's BAD that he can't recover from ridiculously far on Yoshi's!

This is how it was in Melee. In fact, in previous versions, it was WAY easier than Melee and more implementable because it had no distance cap. Be glad they even made it a 6 frame window to begin with lmao. His recovery is still better than it was in Melee.

For the record D-Throw to Fair probably still works on optimal DI and if Mario does it right.

Mario's nerfs are relatively minor compared to the rest of the cast, and yes, fireballs DO make bad matchups harder, but I expected that and I can accept having a bad matchup against Marth again, etc. Just gonna take some getting used to.

 

[Shell]

Oh.

One thing that looks like it didn't make it into the changelog accurately: Dair's size was decreased slightly, but it went from being hitboxes on an on/off loop (like many multihit attacks) to hitboxes that are always on (but the hit refreshes at the same rate as before).

In PM 3.0 / Melee his Dair hitboxes were gigantic and interactions with them were largely determined by what frame Mario happened to meet the enemy's attack, be it a hitbox "on" frame or a hitbox "off" frame.. So even with good spacing there was still a bit of a random element to it. Now although the hitboxes are smaller they're always there, so while it's not as god-like on an "on" frame but you'll never have a totally "off" frame. This makes it much more reliable for clanking some lower DMG projectiles and generally trading to attacks in a more reproducible manner. Overall still likely a nerf, but more of a nerftweak.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Been awhile since I have played PM, but I feel as though the Mario changes were warranted. Having a safe 8% damage projectile was just really silly, and while his recovery was "nerfed" it is still better than it was in comparison to Melee. And while you used to be able to cape people through their shield in Melee, it seems as though the bug where Mario can still do damage to a shielding opponent by caping them wasn't able to be fixed. So just removing that property altogether and giving it slightly more damage in compensation just makes it seem much less janky to look at and deal with.

He still feels really amazing to play though, and this is easily the best iteration of Mario in comparison to any Smash game. Going from Smash 4 Mario to PM Mario again is a huge breath of fresh air. Not saying that Smash 4 is bad mind you, but Mario himself is pretty underwhelming in Smash 4 in regards to his basic moveset and tools (excluding custom moves).

 

[TTTTTsd]

He still feels really amazing to play though, and this is easily the best iteration of Mario in comparison to any Smash game. Going from Smash 4 Mario to PM Mario again is a huge breath of fresh air. Not saying that Smash 4 is bad mind you, but Mario himself is pretty underwhelming in Smash 4 in regards to his basic moveset and tools (excluding custom moves).

Customs make Sm4sh Mario super fun but I agree, P:M Mario is crazy fun mainly because of slick movement and a combo game that goes into moves that make you go "AW YEAHHH" mainly Fair.

 

[Jonyc128]

Anyone else notice that landing on the ground with UpB feels different? Like they added a bit more lag to it?

 

[Scatz]

I actually think the walljump from upB is bugged o_o. I've been trying to make it work via frame advance, and I can't get it working at all from the air. On the ground, it's easy. Anyone know exactly where the cancel is supposed to happen?

 

[Altanic]

I actually think the walljump from upB is bugged o_o. I've been trying to make it work via frame advance, and I can't get it working at all from the air. On the ground, it's easy. Anyone know exactly where the cancel is supposed to happen?

Check my post above with my edits, I'm working on trying to figure out how this is done >_<

Is there a way to angle & lock the camera in degug mode?

 

[Scatz]

+ (Left)

It's not working tho...

 

[Altanic]

+ (Left)

Is there way to angle it beforehand and then lock it? That's what I was asking.

 

[Scatz]

Oh. No idea. I assume not is they didn't mention that from the beginning.

 

[Altanic]

Oh. No idea. I assume not is they didn't mention that from the beginning.

Actually I just figured it out when you replied. Turn on debug mode -> activate camera lock -> disable debug mode -> pause and angle camera -> unpause and reactive debug if necessary

 

[Altanic]

I think I've figured out the walljump thing. Check above earlier posts for information.

 

[Shell]

Anyone else notice that landing on the ground with UpB feels different? Like they added a bit more lag to it?

(Almost) all special moves in v3.5 now use the original Brawl Special Landing animation. Instead of a knee bend they're often more flavorful and exaggerated. For Mario's Up-B this means he does a little butt-bounce but overall the timing is the same, just animation difference playing tricks here.

 

[Mr.Random]

At least Marth is actually possible to beat with Mario in this game. In Melee it's impossible.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Idk about now

 

[TTTTTsd]

The worst possible MU number for Marth v. Mario in 3.5 that I can generate is 7:3, at its worst if it ends up being like that. I can't see it going any lower. It might be 6.5:3.5 if lucky, since Mario here is a lot more potent than Melee Mario and can capitalize off of things a bit better. Semi-spike Bair also sucks for Marth if he happens to get nicked by it. Probably 7:3 though in Marth's favor, but I can't expect Mario to have perfect MUs across the board at this point. Still a stellar character I wager.

 

[Jonyc128]

Marth is way tougher than before, it's probably closer to how it was in Melee now

 

[TTTTTsd]

I imagine this just means that there are definitely MUs where us Mario mains are gonna need to switch characters to do better, which is fine, that's not an attribute unique to Mario in this game. I'm still glad they didn't overnerf him, the potential of that happening was fierce.

Also for the record with the way elemental resistance works with Pikmin (I think it still does?), technically speaking, Dr. Mario is the best against Olimar since no fire projectile. : O

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I imagine this just means that there are definitely MUs where us Mario mains are gonna need to switch characters to do better, which is fine, that's not an attribute unique to Mario in this game. I'm still glad they didn't overnerf him, the potential of that happening was fierce.

Also for the record with the way elemental resistance works with Pikmin (I think it still does?), technically speaking, Dr. Mario is the best against Olimar since no fire projectile. : O

Pikmin no longer have elemental resistances.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Damn it, I was hoping for incredibly stupid alternate costume counterpicks to be next-gen tech!

Either way my point about Marth still stands, I think we may either have to tough it out (we do have more reliable option coverage overall once we can shift the momentum) but it's definitely going to be like Melee until we can do that. It may be best to have a secondary or to get really gud. Either one works.

 

[deadjames]

@ deadjames boss made it work on wario and some other characters last night.

Only characters I've tried it on are Ganon, Marth, Roy, and Pit. Definitely doesn't work on any of them at kill percent anymore, it would probably work earlier, but wouldn't kill, Idk I definitely have some lab work to do, but I doubt I'll be using Mario in this version.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Only characters I've tried it on are Ganon, Marth, Roy, and Pit. Definitely doesn't work on any of them at kill percent anymore, it would probably work earlier, but wouldn't kill, Idk I definitely have some lab work to do, but I doubt I'll be using Mario in this version.

Use Peach

3.5 Peach is terrifying.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The dedication is real. (I'm incredibly disappointed in anyone who's not playing Mario if they did before : ////)

On another note I'm glad the cape does more damage on hit now, not incredibly relevant but makes it a bit more rewarding as an interrupt for sure.

 

[deadjames]

I'm thinking about it, but Sheik is easier and better although Peach does have a better recovery and I hate playing characters with bad recoveries, the biggest reason I stopped using Peach was because a really good Snake player moved to my region and that MU is painful for her, but he's only here during the Summer anyway.