Social Mario Hotel - Super Social 4

[HeroMystic]

It was also debunked. It's always been invincible frame 3-6.

While that sucks, that wasn't the point of me posting that.

The point was to show off Mario's frame data, and to realize that we need to refine our playstyles of him with this in mind.

 

[A2ZOMG]

While that sucks, that wasn't the point of me posting that.

The point was to show off Mario's frame data, and to realize that we need to refine our playstyles of him with this in mind.

Right. I mean, I agree that Mario's fast startup is a great advantage. It means most of the time in close combat situations you rarely worry about being outboxed.

However, I believe Falco beats us pretty hard by basically having startup that is about equally as fast as Mario, but also having better damage and range than Mario. Luigi is also super annoying for similar reasons, though he's a little easier to edgeguard and juggle, and in a custom setting we get to camp him.

 

[HeroMystic]

Because he constantly looks at Mario in a vaccum.

 

[meleebrawler]

He lives in a world where every attack is almost guaranteed
to land, and because Mario's damage is low, he sucks.

 

[TriTails]

Up tilting/up airing people to 50% is...bad damage?

IF he can get in.

Mario suffers from poor approach options, from what I saw. His Fireballs on the ground has too much end lag, and while jumping may solves the problem, but I still find it is quite slow. Especially when comparing his to Luigi's.

 

[Coolwhip]

@Fujean , stop making fresh accounts. lol

I however do agree with with @ A2ZOMG . Mario has downgraded from his Brawl counterpart.
So I really don't see all this hype everyone is talking about. Everyone went from dissing him to loving him? GTFOutta here.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Up tilting/up airing people to 50% is...bad damage?

More accurately, MOST characters that aren't Ganondorf and Ike take about 11 damage, MAYBE 16 before they can escape. So no, Mario doesn't just combo people to 50%. That's what he SHOULD do, but in reality he doesn't when characters usually can either block or jump out of his strings unless he starts them at very specific percents. Brawl Mario in comparison did more damage in fewer reads than Mario. In two hard reads, Brawl Mario could potentially deal over 64%. Smash 4 Mario needs 3 or 4 hard reads to deal about 50%.

The worst character in the game right now is either Swordfighter or Little Mac imo. Swordfighter is all round below average, while Little Mac has some fairly extreme counterpicks though he does have some good matchups.

Then WFT, Mario, G&W, ROB, and Doc are also pretty below average. Not a lot of things outright invalidate them, but they don't really have many favorable matchups.

 

[HeroMystic]

No one has really disses him besides us Mario mains.

 

[Inferno3044]

@Fujean - A2 is the only person I've ever heard say he's worse (and now Coolwhip). They look at things that Mario lost such as jab cancelling and a nerfed cape stall and call it a nerf. However, instead of looking at Mario from a vacuum, they can look at the game and see that Mario's moves connect more, mechanics help him with recovering and not losing to grab armor, and you can still cape stall just fine. I do it.

But I guess instead of agreeing with you, I'll ask the antagonist himself. @ A2ZOMG I want these questions answered.

1. If Mario is better in Brawl than in Smash 4, why is he low tier in brawl?
2. Where on the tier list do you see Mario? Give a range (eg. 1-10, 15-25, 35-40)
3. How much Mario have you played? I honestly felt like he was gonna be better from the 3DS demo simply because the
4. How did Ally win a Canadian national if the character's so bad? Are you trying to tell me that he's so good he just completely outskills M2K, Nakat, and DKWill?

I don't get how everyone except the people on this board realize Mario is so much better. Also A2 just sounds so ridiculous I ignore him now. I'll unignore to hear his answers.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@Fujean - A2 is the only person I've ever heard say he's worse (and now Coolwhip). They look at things that Mario lost such as jab cancelling and a nerfed cape stall and call it a nerf. However, instead of looking at Mario from a vacuum, they can look at the game and see that Mario's moves connect more, mechanics help him with recovering and not losing to grab armor, and you can still cape stall just fine. I do it.

But I guess instead of agreeing with you, I'll ask the antagonist himself. @ A2ZOMG I want these questions answered.

1. If Mario is better in Brawl than in Smash 4, why is he low tier in brawl?
2. Where on the tier list do you see Mario? Give a range (eg. 1-10, 15-25, 35-40)
3. How much Mario have you played? I honestly felt like he was gonna be better from the 3DS demo simply because the
4. How did Ally win a Canadian national if the character's so bad? Are you trying to tell me that he's so good he just completely outskills M2K, Nakat, and DKWill?

I don't get how everyone except the people on this board realize Mario is so much better.

There are very easy answers to all your questions. Also you claim Mario's moves "connect more" which is simply a blanket claim, and is contradictory to evidence (unless all you go for is D-throw Up-B/U-smash). I observe Mario's strings are still either blockable, or can be jumped out of, rather, because Mario doesn't get people to mid percents as quickly in this game, it's more common for him to run into that problem than in Brawl.

1. He's low tier in Brawl because the top tier in Brawl is BROKEN and Mario can't fight a lot of the characters there. Actually realistically, he's underrated in Brawl, but that doesn't matter anyway when he's not really a threat to the most common tournament characters.

2. Mario matchupwise I believe is a bottom 10 character. There's maybe 5 or so lower end matchups that Mario might arguably win 55/45. Most things beat him about 45/55, and I believe he has 4/6s against Diddy, Sheik, Pikachu, Donkey Kong, Falco, and Duck Hunt. And potentially a 3/7 against Marth (not that anyone plays him in tournament). Mostly he sorta can beat his 4/6 matchups in this game, unlike in Brawl where either he had more 35/65s or 3/7s against popular tournament characters.

3. Mario is my 2nd most played character after Ganondorf in this game. Not that it matters given I don't have real time for tournaments, but I don't have a hard time playing him online. I play him similarly to how I do in Brawl, focused on D-air shield pressure, spaced B-airs, the occasional spaced F-smash, and I watch my opponent's percentage very carefully before starting any U-tilt strings, because they're very inconsistent unless your opponent has some prior damage. The one thing I do differently in this game is I use more U-smash for damage purposes rather than saving it for KOs, because in the face of universal damage nerfs, Mario's U-smash doing 14-15% fresh is actually pretty massive. In a game where the majority of throw combos do about 13-17% for most characters, Mario getting about 20% from D-throw U-smash around mid percents is probably the most underrated thing he can do.

4. Ally almost LOST to Will, but Will threw at the very last game charging F-smash against Shulk (note: Ally was FORCED to go Shulk against Will because his Mario got bodied). Ally is probably slightly better than NAKAT, but NAKAT also threw and basically handed free U-smash kills to Mario in situations where he could have landed on a platform or gone for the ledge. And M2K is nowhere near the same level as Ally and lost because he's legitimately not that amazing.

Just watch the matches yourself. Ally doesn't do anything with Mario besides prove his spacing is ridiculously good and that sometimes he gets amazing F-smash reads, and that people don't realize that his reaction time is good enough that you're not supposed to just mindlessly charge in towards Mario's head when Mario's U-smash is basically the same from Brawl (note: it was still an amazing move in Brawl).

 

[TTTTTsd]

His moves factually connect more at middling percents due to this game's hitstun calculation. This is empirically true and also why actual Uair strings outside of low % things exist with this character (in particular, Uair combos, into itself or otherwise.) Also Dair.

So yes his kit realistically flows better overall if you ask me given that your opponent cannot act out of the hitstun in this game and knock you in the noggin for attempting any form of followup. And please don't bring up Utilt strings, they're the exception and not the rule in this case.

Also I'd like to point out that startup frame wise Mario has I believe the strongest frame data in the game in this regard. I think he has two attacks that are longer than 9 frames startup, which is something I'd like to bring to the table in his favor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The hitstun calculation in this game unless I'm mistaken is basically the same as in Brawl, minus that you don't act out of Tumble early in this game. Mario's combos in both Brawl and Smash 4 are generally speaking pre-tumble links, and not only did that not change, there's still large enough gaps at low percents for most characters to escape U-air/U-tilt strings until you hit mid percents. It's only against characters with really poor physics like Ganondorf and Ike where you can basically U-tilt mindlessly and it will cover everything they can do and then at a point you just U-air them to like 60%.

Sure Mario does get some more reliable random post-Tumble combos in this game, but all of those are highly conditional.

 

[TTTTTsd]

That's...exactly what I said lol. I specifically mentioned middling percents because he can convert off of those really ****ing easy with incredibly good air and ground mobility and, yes, really good start up frame data.

Overall I damn well do believe his hits connect better by virtue of him actually having a mid percent game that actually has some form of flow. I'm not convinced this character is bad at all and I could be given an entire book about it and still wait for the results to tell me otherwise because those are usually what matter in the long run.

I mained a bad character at one point (Dr. Mario), I believe I am educated on what makes a character bad in this game. I'm going to have to respectfully disagree and leave it at that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah but like...it worked that way in Brawl too if you landed U-air at mid percents. Except when you got the stars to align in THAT game, you did more like 70-80% while in this game it's more like 50-60%.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Really? Because in Brawl they could act out of hitstun realistically before the ACTUAL calculation ended (via air dodge or attacks although I believe the latter is later) meaning that it is most definitely more effective in this game on the grounds of hitstun being intangible and the opponent being unable to interrupt it.

The only difference to me is the light hitstun in this game being lower than Brawl, I believe everything else lines up except they can't act out, meaning that getting a hit at mid % with Mario gives you access to much more options than it did before. Not to mention Mario's overall mobility increasing in both the ground and the air.

He's most certainly not Brawl Mario, but he's Smash 4 Mario and I think there's plenty to look into with this character before proclaiming him dead or "bad" especially with how his frame data has panned out, among other things. This game's not even two months old (I don't consider 3DS the actual game the controller limited everything I could do), I think the reason most people in here aren't parading around in negativity is because they're trying to squeeze out the performance of their character and focusing on him relative to this game.

And hey, it's getting results! Keep in mind this is all just my observations, but none of what I am seeing is showing me a bad character. Call me a bleeding optimist or wrong or whatever, but I think my experience with Dr. Mario vs. Mario gives me enough room to say that I think the former isn't viable as much as the latter, by a good margin. (Doc can still win ofc but lol)

 

[A2ZOMG]

The main hard part about Brawl Mario combos was his D-throw was basically a 50/50 where you had to read whether or not they airdodged because it had enough base knockback to force enemies into Tumble, but if you made the correct read, subsequent hits from there were often pretty reliable as long as you didn't make the mistake of U-tilting some fast falling characters before about 9% or so. Brawl hitstun is mostly the same as Smash 4's when talking about moves that don't put you into tumble, which includes early U-tilt strings, mid percent U-air strings, and of course things like Jab cancels where Mario actually lost options.

There mostly aren't really "bad" characters in this game. More importantly, there's not really any broken characters in Smash 4, just some blatantly overtuned ones (Pikachu though by design is theoretically broken). People have to realize that I acknowledge that competitively, Mario has fewer unwinnable matchups in this game. Just overall, he has more unfavorable matchups and fewer even matchups than before.

Then on customs he becomes really annoying and wins a few more matchups by camping with Fast Fireballs to refresh his moves, and Gust Cape also gives him back most of his old survivability and then some.

 

[BSP]

Here's what I think, and this is coming from 4 years or so of maining Mario in Brawl.

Worse in Smash 4:

• DMG per hit - this is clear, but most of the cast received damage nerfs, so it's not THAT huge of a deal. Plus, the first thing listed in the "better" section somewhat mitigates this.
• Short hop - I haven't seen this mentioned, but I feel like his SH got worse because he goes a bit higher, making SH bair whiff on *******. It's not awful, but it does feel worse.
• Cape Stall - obvious
• Cape reflection window - obvious
• Jab Cancel - you can't, and it sucks.
• Fireball Lag - Projectiles were nerfed across the board, but Mario's fireball is more of a commitment than it has ever been. It's not really a safe option unless you are at the peak of mid-range or you're at long range. It still does its job though.
• Fsmash range - I really feel this nerf in matches, and the loss of stutter stepping hurts even more.
• Usmash range - you have to reverse Usmash to have any hope of hitting people in front of you.

Better in Smash 4:

• Smash 4 hitstun mechanics - no AD out of hitstun helps make combos a bit more reliable, and I can say for certain that -much- longer strings are possible in Smash 4 than in Brawl.
• Dtilt - a useful move now.
• Everyone else is worse - this is the biggest factor in Mario seeming good. Mario's frame data was good in Brawl too. If MK didn't have transcendent priority on everything, I think Mario could've actually competed with him on the ground. What's helping him the most is that the dumb CGs are gone and some of the good characters were toned down. Also:
• Ledge mechanics - Since Mario can't be edge hogged anymore, he isn't as easy to gimp. He can still be gimped, but the new ledges favor him a lot.
• FLUDD - Being transcendent means that the push can't be mitigated, only dodged, except by certain moves.
• Fair - KOs when you land it. If only grounded meteors weren't techable...
• Air speed - it got better, I think.
• Apparently some moves are slightly faster: http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU

So for a straight Brawl vs Smash 4 character comparison, I'd say Mario got worse. There are 8 Mario specific things that got worse vs. 5 things Mario specific things that got better.

Considering Smash 4's global changes though, namely the good characters from brawl getting nerfed and universal mechanic changes that favor Mario, he got better.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The problem with Mario's damage nerfs is that the extent to which he loses exchanges in this game is overall greater than what it was in Brawl. Consider in Brawl, a move that does 13% vs 11%, and in Smash 4, a move that does 9% vs 7%. It's comparatively speaking a bigger difference in Smash 4. In Brawl, the damage difference is minor enough that it sometimes doesn't even change the number of hits you need for KOs, while that's not really the case in Smash 4. No dumb CGs though makes things less fraudulent.

Rosalina and Yoshi can Jab cancel -> U-smash. Fox has Jab cancel repeat juggles. Palutena gets Jab -> grab legitimately. Luigi's Jab cancel while worse still leaves him at a frame advantage, while Mario's is usually negative on hit unless you complete Jab 3. Link also has an amazing Jab cancel that combos into D-smash at high percents. Jab canceling wasn't really universally removed, just to be clear.

I also rarely ever complained about being edgehogged in Brawl, because Cape Stalling was so good it basically didn't matter as long as you DIed correctly and weren't against Metaknight.

 

[BSP]

Oh ok, my bad. I've only been working with Mario and Pac-Man for the most part and just assumed. Bad me.

 

[HeroMystic]

• Usmash range - you have to reverse Usmash to have any hope of hitting people in front of you.

There was really no point in using U-Smash at Mario's front anyway.

 

[NAKAT]

Mario for top 10 baby!

 

[TriTails]

Mario for top 10 baby!

Er.... not to be rude or something. But I think Mario's best would be Top 20.

M2K and ZeRo said he is Top 5 though, but I dunno if that is true.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'd rather work on making Mario and myself to be the best he and I can be, rather than dribble on about his placement.

After playing on Smashladder all day, I feel I've improved significantly but still have a long way to go.

 

[Tristan_win]

Hello I'm a new mario user, please halp

No but really I was in training mode just now trying to figure out when Mario dthrow true combo's into utilt and I'm having a lot of trouble. It just doesn't seem to want to combo. I can accept if Mario doesn't combo but frame traps but the fact it wont combo at all on Boswer is really worry some. So, my question to you Mario main's is.. Is dthrow into utilt really unreliable against smart opponents with 1-2 frame c-c-combo break options or is dthrow broken in training mode?


Results so far~
Mario
Dthrow into utilt start comboing at 21%
Utilt into Utilt start comboing at 29%
Luigi
21%
33%
Peach
20%
Only 35-36
Boswer
...?

 

[HeroMystic]

D-throw > U-tilt is a true combo at Bowser at 51%.

If it doesn't register as a true combo you have to watch out for characters that has an aerial that starts at frame 3 that can break out of it. Floaty characters are also able to DI away from the first U-tilt so you pretty much can't lock them into a U-tilt chain.

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-throw -> U-tilt itself is fairly frame tight and will usually catch people that try to jump or airdodge anyway. The real problem is consecutive U-tilts or U-air strings which are much less reliable except at certain percent ranges, or against characters with really bad physics.

 

[TTTTTsd]

With Bowser you want to use U-Throw at lower % to combo better (same vs. most heavies or fast fallers that land on the ground too fast after a D-Throw).

Also Utilt strings work wonders vs. Captain Falcon if I recall. Because Falcon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

With Bowser you want to use U-Throw at lower % to combo better (same vs. most heavies or fast fallers that land on the ground too fast after a D-Throw).

Also Utilt strings work wonders vs. Captain Falcon if I recall. Because Falcon.

Bowser also generally has a bad time with U-tilt strings given he lacks options to interrupt them, and is just floaty enough that I believe he doesn't get to shield in between them.

Against Falcon, I believe you need about 9 or so prior damage on him before U-tilting, but it is pretty easy to tack on 40% on him if you catch him around there.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also I recommend getting creative with D-Throw and your combo options vs. most fastfallers like Fox. I've had instances of D-Throw -> Running USmash work against Fox for some reason, this was on 3DS and some time ago so I don't remember the specifics.

Fast fallers are pretty free vs. Mario's attack options though, for the most part.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's still the problem where against fastfallers, you need to actually first tack on a bit of damage before trying combos because then they shield your strings at 0%. This is especially problematic against FALCO who can abuse safe pokes against Mario consistently and doesn't really care about Mario's Fireballs.

Vs Fox though, makes the matchup a lot better overall given he's a character that lacks good pokes.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I really think of the fastfallers it's really just Falco who needs to be worried about the most.

Fox is probably fine, Falcon IDK but I imagine Falcon's not too bad either because he's a combination of tall and fastfalling which is really bad vs. Mario especially.

Just abuse Mario's stupid good frame data on certain A moves (Jab = 2 frames) and tack up damage a bit before you go all risky risky.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah Falcon similarly like Fox relies more on mobility rather than hitboxes to be effective in neutral. This is something Mario prefers a lot because he has many short ranged, but practical lingering hitboxes, including ones that can sometimes start combos.

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario for top 10 baby!

@ BSP - By that logic, ICs are better in melee than in brawl because SoPo is more viable, he's stronger, and can move faster with wave dashing. However, this isn't true and ICs is better in Brawl.

 

[Vinylic.]

Leaving this here for viewing pleasure.

Also this. Dthrow > Utilt > 3-Jab doesn't really work at most. Does make for some reading opportunities however.

 

[HeroMystic]

Got 25th place in a tournament. 73 entrants. Only Mario (Rosie is my secondary)

Offline Mario is waaaaay better than Online Mario. I can see his attack speed giving him an advantage against a good amount of the cast.

I'm happy with my performance but I'm not satisfied with my placement. I'm gonna work a lot harder to get top 8 next time.

Results: http://smashboards.com/threads/sam-1-results-74-entrants.385458/

I lost to FunCrazyFish

 

[vato_break]

I got 3rd at the last tournament I went to going mostly mario(I was double eliminated by a sonic/diddy player) but I beat I double eliminated the guy who was seeded first! hype. going to another tournament tommorow and I will go all mario. win or lose. i'll try to get some videos!

 

[HeroMystic]

Got 13th place in a 72 entrant tournament. Got knocked into losers by Lil'Mac, then climbed the bracket until I lost to Kirby.

@ Incendiary got 4th place in the same tournament, losing to Megafox and then Paws (ZSS), major props to him.

 

[smasher1001]

I just got 13th myself in a 65 person tournament yesterday myself as well, i'll post the single video that was on the streaming setup when i see they've posted it.

 

[Incendiary]

I got a feel of how nasty those ZSS up b finishes are. Other than that I felt the match up could be in Mario's favor, if not even. You really have to respect her in the air and avoid bad spot dodges or face getting caught in a uair-uair-up b combo. I felt like I fell for those more than I should have and got ko'd early 80's 90's.. I'll definitely play better next time.

Megafox is probably the best Fox is smash 4 and I still don't have an answer for his fox. His pressure and punish game is unreal. I'll figure something out eventually hahaha

 

[Diegosaurus]

Now to discuss something: FLUDD. Should it stay, but be given tweaks, or be removed entirely?

Personally, i feel like its pretty useless, but i do like how mario's down air is the mario tornado. If nintendo were to remove FLUDD, i feel like it shoud be for ground pound from mario 64 or the little back flip.