Mario's Matchups! Updated May 15, 2007! Only missing Zelda!

[PacStrife]

lolz I smash in NC yall are lucky to have such good communities

as far as piichu goes, I can't really think of too much, I did fight a piichu player recently and the only real thing piichu has going for it is that it can hop neutral a's trough most of mario's air moves. Other than that I would have to say that it's piichu, I mean really I killed him with mario's up smash come on.

But maybe we should get a piichu rep. in here. I know that piichu has some good matchups i just don't know which ones. I might get my friend to post in here who is a pretty serious piichu player, see what he thinks about it.

 

[Silent Wolf]

lolz I smash in NC yall are lucky to have such good communities

as far as piichu goes, I can't really think of too much, I did fight a piichu player recently and the only real thing piichu has going for it is that it can hop neutral a's trough most of mario's air moves. Other than that I would have to say that it's piichu, I mean really I killed him with mario's up smash come on.

But maybe we should get a piichu rep. in here. I know that piichu has some good matchups i just don't know which ones. I might get my friend to post in here who is a pretty serious piichu player, see what he thinks about it.

ask T0MMY, hes the best pichu i know, and he'll tell you that any pichu that nairs around is garbage.

 

[Eggz]

LoL otto. We concluded the argument like 20 posts ago. We all kissed and made up, grabbed a bite to eat, then parted. Old newszors.

Mario Pichu is definitly in Mario's favor. It's like fighting a lighter version of pikachu that cant kill you.

Pichu
+Good grab game
+Good combo game
+Pichu is EXTREMELY light
+Pichu can be chainthrown
+Pichu has a predictable recovery
+Pichu is garbage
+Pichu is more KO ******** than Mario
+Pichu has no edges whatsoever on Mario.
+Dthrow fsmash ftautokill

 

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

Wow, almost all of Mario's attacks are KO attacks because of Pichu's lightness. Pichu gets killed by even U smash and D smash.


Don't forget to add him on the list.

 

[Gea]

LoL otto. We concluded the argument like 20 posts ago. We all kissed and made up, grabbed a bite to eat, then parted. Old newszors.

Mario Pichu is definitly in Mario's favor. It's like fighting a lighter version of pikachu that cant kill you.

Pichu
+Good grab game
+Good combo game
+Pichu is EXTREMELY light
+Pichu can be chainthrown
+Pichu is garbage
+Pichu is more KO ******** than Mario
+Pichu has no edges whatsoever on Mario.
+Dthrow fsmash ftautokill
-Pichu has a hard to take advantage of recovery

If you do it right 1 frame landing lag.../ doesn't Mario eat fsmash recovering?

 

[Silent Wolf]

you can easily DI out of pichus fsmash so you dont even get hit by the strong part.
does pichu's fsmash reach ppl on the ledge like pikachus?

EDIT - hey mediocre man............click on the link on my sig to see what i meant by colors!!!!

 

[Gea]

If you do it while Mario up+b's, I'm pretty sure it hits his head and that will kill you. On stage though Fsmash isn't as reliable and in my opinion JC usmashes are the way to go. (For pichu to get kills) or just nair off and edgeguard...

Oh yeah and mario, like most of the cast, is good uair bait.

Duh Mario wins, but you know, Pichu doesn't have a TOTAL lack of things to utilize.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Keep in mind that you can smash DI the fsmash towards the stcge and tech.

 

[Gea]

Yeah, but then you can either go for another sweetspot, or up+b onto the stage and either way he can just fsmash again. On the same note, can't pichu DI the throw so the fsmash doesn't hit/doesn't sweetspot? I mean, while the Mario could keep teching...that doesn't mean its not a good/effective way to edgeguard.

Honestly my biggest point was PIchu's recovery > Mario's. That's it. There's not much to dispute. If the pichu lands correctly, there is a 1 frame lag. Pichu can recover from further away and has more options of escaping edgeguarding (in terms of HOW he recovers) than Mario. If anyone is predictable its Mario (easy to hog once you hit him out enough)

Does this really swing the matchup at all? Nah, not really. Pichu will most likely get blastline KO'd is all. But it annoys me when people say a character has NO edge whatso ever. Even matches where Sheik can grab and take a stock off, the character has SOME advantage in some way, it just doesn't counter the chainthrows advantage at all.

 

[Silent Wolf]

at certain precents, the dthrow fsmash will not work, but it can work at a possible percent that it will ensure the fsmash (if done right of course) and will kill him in some cases. its not like it works at all times no matter what.
as for the edguarding thing, mario can sweetspot lower than most, low enough to where pichus fsmash cannot reach him at any point in the attack. and if you tech and immediately up-b, you realize pichu will get hit and wont be able to fsmash immediately. mario will land first, and if for some rason he doesnt, mario wont be there long enough to get hit by a whole nother fsmash.

 

[Gea]

I'd wanna look at the frames. Since the part you tech is at the END of the attack, are there enough frames for Mario to tech and then up B where Pichu is still in cooldown? In which case Mario has landing lag, and even if Mario can DI out of the fsmash, pichu can still just nair him off if he's laggy from being on stage, and you repeat the process. If Mario is going low, guess what? Hog for the kill.

To quote caveman, "I can't play Doc anymore. You just get hogged"

Mario isn't much better. Yes you can "mix it up," but anyone that plays a Mario and knows how they must recover knows that stalling doesn't help much to prevent a hog unless you scare them by nadoing RIGHT by them in which case they should have just ledgedropped something and stagespiked you/hit you low enough (even if you tech it) there's nothing Mario can do.

You could go through every scenario possible, but Pichu's ability to get back to the stage is better than Mario's. Like I said before, it doesn't effect the outcome of this match enough to really play a huge role.

Edit: and since its such a moot point, this is all I have say about this.

 

[Silent Wolf]

I'd wanna look at the frames. Since the part you tech is at the END of the attack, are there enough frames for Mario to tech and then up B where Pichu is still in cooldown? In which case Mario has landing lag, and even if Mario can DI out of the fsmash, pichu can still just nair him off if he's laggy from being on stage, and you repeat the process. If Mario is going low, guess what? Hog for the kill.

If the up-b hits pichu, he'll go higher than mario, mario will land first, and won't sit there for 2 whole seconds and wait to get attacked, lol.
this has got to be the most pointless debate iv ever taken part in, pichu is pointless to talk about. NO MORE, its not worth it.

 

[Gea]

Just to clear up one thing, I meant Pichu would be able to sheild before the up + B could hit him. Either way it'd be close to see whether each player could pull off these respective things AND all in all, means nothing. ;o

 

[Silent Wolf]

just one more thing, if mario techs then immediately up-Bs back to the stage, he would hit pichu, even if he fsmashed at the right moment. and if pichu does manage to hit him after the up-b after the tech, and tries to fsmash, now the mario will have time to DI it. had to get that out there.
how bout a good debate now? like um....yeah

Shane, I think you should edit the firs post based on the educated and finalized opinions that have been agreed upon by the intelligent ones.
plus, when you come over again, log me onto your name, so i can colorize your post all cool like and stuff. you also need to make the first post bold, it loks so much better. you need to get n depth on each character now. like for each of the 6 nuetral stages at least for each character. that would be cool. but put pictures of the characters there too! and the stages your talkin about! thatd make it more appealing.

this is a good topic, it should be stickied.

more debates now!
what about mario vs falcon? get into details about that one! :D

 

[flaco]

just one more thing, if mario techs then immediately up-Bs back to the stage, he would hit pichu, even if he fsmashed at the right moment. and if pichu does manage to hit him after the up-b after the tech, and tries to fsmash, now the mario will have time to DI it. had to get that out there.
how bout a good debate now? like um....yeah

Shane, I think you should edit the firs post based on the educated and finalized opinions that have been agreed upon by the intelligent ones.
plus, when you come over again, log me onto your name, so i can colorize your post all cool like and stuff.

this is a good topic, it should be stickied.

more debates now!
what about mario vs falcon? get into details about that one! :D

I agree with you my friend these guy speaks the true bro

 

[Silent Wolf]

Shane est le meilleur joueur de mario dans le wrold!!!!
shane you should give me your password so i can make it better!
if you give me your password, id give you mine just so wed be even.

 

[Eggz]

I sent you my password Otto, im gonna be really busy the next few days so I wont be able to edit it. Anyways, the original intention of this guide was to list Mario's matchups, and the best stages for those matchups, so while we finish up the main matchup list we may as well discuss stages as you said. I've gotta go to bed, seeing as I need to wake up in like 3 hours. Peace out.

 

[Eggz]

okay, if you do want my password for no reasn ask for it anytime, lol.
for now im just gonna make things colorful more and put pictures. maybe get the stages for each character set up a bit for now.
-Silent Wolf

 

[The Cape]

Silv, PM me or IM me this weekend. I will look into writing up my stances on these matches if you want.

 

[Silent Wolf]

silv? do you mean eggz? cause silv wont see that, he doesnt post.
if youre talking about helping this thread, PEASE DO! me and eggz cant (dont want to) do it alone.

 

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

MM, you forgot to add Pichu to the list.

 

[phish-it]

Oh man, since everyone is discussing it.... I play pichu, (not as a main but still nonetheless) and I must say Mario is one of pichu's hardest matchups. Thats right, I'd say he's just a step down from Ice Climbers, (which is probably the biggest counterpick in the game). Really, Pichu can't combo mario at all because he breaks free too quick, but mario can combo pichu hard, and anyone who can combo pichu is death for the critter.

 

[Silent Wolf]

i actually think shiek vs bowser is the biggest counterpick in the game, lol.

 

[Eggz]

I'd have to go with fox vs fox as the biggest counter in the game.

 

[PacStrife]

biggest counter in the game = chu's ics on FD vs sheik lolz. But back on topic we still have some characters to put on tha list of stuff. Donkey Kong, Mewtwo, game & watch, zelda, ness, kirby, and piichu have yet to be added. I think we should finish with all the characters first before we move in to thing that are stage related.

Just my general opinions on the remaining crew are as follows:
in mario's advantage:
mewtwo- but i dont know anything about the matchup just cause he's mewtwo

kirby- easy to combo and kill (wait mario can kill?) makes this matchup fun for marios yay

even matchups:
donkey kong: a good DK player can decently combo mario and all it takes is one to get to killing range, but he is ***** by the plumber combos.

game&watch: he can kill mario pretty good and his weird physics take away a lot of mario's potential combos (no down throw?? NNOOO!!!) However, mario can also kill him pretty easy and edgeguarding doesnt exactly take a college degree

in favor of opponent:
zelda- So maybe I'm just ******** but I hate playing this matchup. She is hard to combo or kill or edge guard and usually breaks out of combos with a toe, which = dead mario. I hate the toe.

I have no idea about Ness. I just dont play this match at all.

Anyways, these are really general so if anyone disagree feel free to say so. I will try to defend my choices as best I can.
THANKX

 

[Silent Wolf]

"biggest counter in the game = chu's ics on FD vs sheik lolz"
-PacStrife

Actually, shiek vs bowser on FD is the same thing, but a lot easier. chain throw from 0-100 something.

 

[PacStrife]

Dang i didnt think it was that bad, but I mean really who is gonna play bowser in a tourney? Plus when Chu does it, it looks so **** painful, where as sheik just kinda looks like sheik. >_> But i think your right shiek vs. bowser = wtf just happened.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Actually, Gimpyfish plays bowser more than anyone of his other characters in tourneys, lol. His Bowser is by far his best.
I think he dittos shieks though.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I find the Ice Climbers to be a very hard matchup for Mario. How hard you ask? Well lets see, I main Mario and consider myself to be pretty good with him, my brother is 11 and just picked up the Ice Climbers, worst of all I used to main the IC's so I taught him how to play them. So an 11 year old who uses tactics I can predict fairly easily(since there mine), gives me trouble with the Ice Climbers. I can still win but its a challenge.
Pretty much to be useful mario has to fight close-range. However, you have almost no approach options against the Ice Climbers, and once you get there they can CCC with their Dsmash against pretty much anything you do. Plus throws are useless against them which takes away about half your combo starters, and there recovery is pretty much un-capable.
It seems to me that it is a very tough match-up, and probably really is one of the toughest in the game.(things like Shiek/Bowser really shouldn't count, when it comes to match-ups between two characters that are respectable at a tournament level, this is probably the toughest one).

 

[Twig]

For everywhere that u put "kills mario good", please for the love of god change it to "kills mario WELL

If ur trying to make intelligent debate and say "kills mario good"....uh yea prety oxymoronish.

 

[Gea]

Its a joke... He isn't trying to be correct when he says that.

 

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

MM, you should ask the mods to sticky this topic.

 

[Silent Wolf]

I find the Ice Climbers to be a very hard matchup for Mario. How hard you ask? Well lets see, I main Mario and consider myself to be pretty good with him, my brother is 11 and just picked up the Ice Climbers, worst of all I used to main the IC's so I taught him how to play them. So an 11 year old who uses tactics I can predict fairly easily(since there mine), gives me trouble with the Ice Climbers. I can still win but its a challenge.
Pretty much to be useful mario has to fight close-range. However, you have almost no approach options against the Ice Climbers, and once you get there they can CCC with their Dsmash against pretty much anything you do. Plus throws are useless against them which takes away about half your combo starters, and there recovery is pretty much un-capable.
It seems to me that it is a very tough match-up, and probably really is one of the toughest in the game.(things like Shiek/Bowser really shouldn't count, when it comes to match-ups between two characters that are respectable at a tournament level, this is probably the toughest one).

bowser vs shiek still counts, its still a match up. and im sure ICs vs mario isnt one of the worst, lol. im SURE. you cant say that sheik vs bowser isnt a "respectable tourney match" when mario vs ICs isnt one either, in terms of speaking how you did at least lol.
theres stil sheik vs pichu, mewtwo, dk, link, y. link, etc. LOL. and marth vs kirby, pichu, ICs, etc. soo many ore worse ones than IC vs mario.

 

[Lucky_Sharmz19]

Someone go on about a Mario vs. DK match up. I can't think of anything. All i know is that all of DK's aerial and ground attacks out range Mario's and are stronger too.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Yes, but what I meant by that is in terms of how much that character has going for them specifically in that match-up. I don't think Sheik vs. Bowser should count because Sheik is at an advantage because she is an overall better character, not just because she is good against Bowser. To be a hard match-up, at least the way I always think of it, the advantage goes to the player who has something about them that is more useful against the other character than in most other match-ups. In that sense I guess Sheik/Bowser still does kind of work sense Sheik has such crazy combos and Bowser is easy to combo. But the point is Mario and the Ice Climbers are both middle teir, but when they fight each other it feels like a top teir against a bottom.

 

[Gea]

Yeah but you're looking too much into tiers. Tiers don't dictate how matchups fall... Its just more likely a lower tiered character will have more bad matchups. But then you think about the fact that Bowser doesn't totally get ***** by Fox... and it should hit you: Tiers =/= matchups.

 

[Twig]

Mario vs DK is in Mario's favor slightly.

DK b-air abuse is extremely hard to handle, and DK's upthrow up-air combos work well at low %'s.

Mario has very good grab combos and up-air follow ups just due to his weight, and DK relies upon grabs, and mario is hard to grab (im fairly certain if ur crouched u dodge his grab lol).

The big key in the matchup is whether the DK is gonna just b-air spam the whole match, making him extremely difficult to approach. If not, avoid the grabs and dont be stupid and u should **** DK.

 

[Eggz]

Yeah lol, whenever I use craptastic grammar, it is almost always a joke. I'm a fairly educated person...lol.

I'll ask for it to be stickied later. Right now I shouldn't even be posting this.

I have no insight on any of the remaining matchups sooooo...>_> Ill be out of these discussions. XD Also my computer is almost broken so I'll be less active for the rest of the week. Otto will surely do things for me though.

 

[PacStrife]

OK so are we saying that DK vs. Mairo is even or what? I think that DK's overall strength means he only has to combo mario at low %s which he can do with the up throw->up air combos. I think if a good DK played a good mario it could go eithe rway though. IDK, I find the match-up weird so maybe that's why I give DK too much credit?

 

[HeroSublime]

Mario vs Young Link can be fairly even. Mario has some decent advantage in terms of his dthrow fsmash, but his recovery can be taken out fairly easily with the dsmash and simple nairing. Also Mario is fairly succeptable to ledgehog.

So better advantage than Adult Link, but still in Mario's favor. I'd say something like.

+Can spam
+Can combo decently
+Nair kills recovery
+Dsmash kills recovery unless teched
+Grab range
-Cape can mess up spam
--Dthrow Fsmash(Deserves two negatives)
-Longer range kill moves making it very hard to land that last hit
-Ledge-hop/ledge drop bair can **** recovery
-Faster, better smash attacks