Marth is good - Factual evidence proving that Marth is a good character

[Emblem Lord]

I'm making this thread for several reasons. One is simply clarification. I want it to be known once and for all how I feel about Marth as a character. I'm just so sick of people posting crap about me and saying such nonsense like how I think Marth is the best when I have said time and again that he is not. The second reason is to simply prove that I use evidence to back up any claim that I make. I don't make things up. I observe, take notes, test things out myself and draw conclusions from that. The third reason is boredom. When I get bored I like to share my thoughts. The fourth reason is to shut down any Marth nay sayers that think he sucks or w/e.

This post will follow a basic format. First I'll list Marth's pros and cons and discuss each of them after that. Then I will talk about some basic strats that he has that give him an edge in competitive play. Then I will talk about the main determining factor of a character's placement on the tier list, their match-ups. I'll give a very general overview of his matches which should really solidify the fact that Marth is a solid character.

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ME SAYING MARTH IS BROKEN OR A GOD OR W/E!!!!

This thread is about educating the Marth community and promoting understanding of Marth as a character. And with that, read on to see why Marth is good.


Pros

+ Fast runner and fast attacker

+ Standing grab range is good.

+ Good kill moves and has a lot of kill moves.

+ Good range and tipper hits give increased knockback and damage.

+ Good aerials overall. Decent damage and they can all kill. Also his Dair is a spike.

+ Thanks to good DI on his SH Marth can use Fairs to camp and set up walls.

+ Good tilts overall. U-tilt can f-tilt can kill and d-tilt is very fast and safe.

+ D-tilt has IASA frames. Marth can cancel his d-tilt after he pulls his sword back. He can go into any action after that. This makes it a great approach move/spacing tool/poke. It also moves him forward slightly when he does 2 or more in a row quickly.

+ Special moves are all good. Dancing Blade is very fast, and can kill at the sweetspot, and it also racks up decent damage. Dolphin Slash is very fast and invincible for the first 5 frames. It can also kill. Counter activates instantly and can be used to stuff moves in reaction. It has the potential to kill if it counters a strong move. Shieldbreaker is solid. A long stab that wrecks shields and shield stabs very well. It's a decent poke. Also Dancing Blade and Shieldbreaker can used for recovery as well as his up b. Also Dancing blade means that Marth doesn't need to worry about attack degredation.

+ Good smashes overall. They all kill well, especially tipper f-smash.

+ His running speed combined with his good attack speed and his solid moveset gives him one of the best approaches in the game. Fair, d-tilt, dancing blade, dash attack and grabs give him solid options on approach.

+ Good out of shield options.

+ Decent recovery.

+ Good at gimping recoveries.

+ Doesn't really have any bad stages, since he has a lot of kill options and solid moves.


Cons

- Running grab has sucky range.

- Throws aren't really good at all. They are below average.

- Jab isn't that great. Dancing blade is better.

- Smashes leave him vulnerable when shielded. Only tipper f-smash is fairly safe on block.

- All his special moves leave him vulnerable when blocked.

- He is a light weight. Not as light as say MK or Kirby, but still pretty light. He is a mid-light weight.

- He has no projectile.

- He can be projectile camped.

- Doesn't have advantage against a lot of the top tier candidates. He goes even with a lot of them and he also goes even with some high tier candidates. This keeps him from being high up in the top tier.




Let's do a run down of the pros. Most of it is self explanatory. He doesn't really have any bad moves save for his jab, but Dancing blade replaces it. He has useful moves for any situation and plenty of kill options as well. He can also kill as early as the 80's. He has plenty of good attributes namely his speed in running and attacking. He has a great approach thanks to Fair, D-tilt and Dancing Blade. Also his defensive game is good thanks to up b out of shield, Dancing blade out of shield and U-smash out of shield. Fair and D-tilt are safe on block so Marth can attack safely without fear when he spaces correctly. And of course Marth's range is a plus.

He can gimp well thanks to his fair and his own recovery is decent and harder to gimp due to Dolphin Slash's tendency to stage spike anyone that tries to gimp him. Also using Marth's ability to SH fair then DI back and fair again or do something else, he can camp other characters to gain control of the match. Also since he can kill with any aerial and he kills vertically as well as horizontally Marth doesn't do badly on any stage really. This doesn't mean that certain characters won't have advantage on him on certain stages. All it means is that Marth does fairly well on every stage. But certain characters will still do better on certain stages then Marth does.


Now we look at his cons. Most of this stuff is mitigated by playing intelligently. If you use run into shield grab then his normal running grab means nothing anyway. A good Marth won't spam smashes or special moves, so there is less chance of them being blocked, which means less chance that Marth is left vulnerable. Also there are some tricks that make Dancing Blade safer. Marth is on the light side, this is true. Good DI will help you live until 130 to 140ish against most opponents, but after that your pretty much done unless your foe has sucky kill moves. The next ones are obvious and have an obvious impact on his game. He has no projectile so his camping isnt as good as projectile users and he can be projectile camped which means he has to work harder to win in matches where he can be projectile camped effectively. It's easier to deal with in some matches then others though. Overall though Marth can deal with projectile camping just fine thanks to run into shield, Rolling, full jumping, Instant double jumping, SH to airdodge to buffer roll or buffer dash or buffer w/e. Plus Marth can grab item projectiles with an attack, perfectshield them, or clank them with his sword. He has plenty of options.

Once Marth gets past the projectile camping it isn't too hard to take control of a match and pressure your opponent. Marth has the tools to get in damage and get in kills to keep him in the game vs projectile campers. His great options, approach, and kill moves are really what allow him to fight campers. He is probably the only character other then MK that can fight campers and doesn't have a projectile himself.

Marth also has some tricks up his sleeve when dealing with campers. Once he gets close enough he can camp at a certain "optimal" range with SH fairs and d-tilts. Ideally this range is close enough that they cannot safely spam projectiles, but far away enough that Marth outranges them in close combat and can punish any attempt to attack him or rush him. This special type of camping actually gives Marth advantage in certain match-ups vs projectile campers and makes other match-ups even. And Marth has another trick up his sleeve concerning his Fair. Thanks to his DI he can easily do a Wall of Pain with retreating fairs or approaching fairs to encroach upon his opponents space while adjusting his own. Marth has a lot of options after a SH fair as well. He can airdodge to be defensive. Fast fall to hit the ground sooner for a different action. Do Dancing blade or Shieldbreaker. Use counter to stuff any attempt to punish. Also from a SH fair Marth is in a position to react to almost anything his opponent does. If they try to roll behind you just use Dancing Blade in that direction. If you know they will try to attack then you can airdodge then punish or counter. If they like to roll back then you can DI forward and fast fall then chase them. If they want to sit in their shield then just DI enough to adjust your spacing so that when you do another Fair on the way down you will be safe. Marth has a lot of options so please experiment and see what you can come up with.

Also a quick word on the Dancing Blade. If it is blocked you can do several things. You can do all 4 attacks and do the last hit as down B. This way it multi-stabs. There is a chance the Marth will get a shield stab in this case. You could also stop at the third hit as a down b. Marth will step back to his starting position, which can allow him to evade an attempt to shieldgrab him or punish him. Or you could just stop after the first 2 hits then grab or shieldbreaker. Most opponents don't try to roll or punish until the 3rd or 4th hit so this can catch them off guard.

I got a bit side tracked, but now I'll go into Marth's major con. It's the fact that he really doesn't have advantage against any of the shoe-ins for top tier. All the strats I just talked about allow him to go even with Toon Link, Snake, Falco, and Zelda although it could be argued that Marth has advantage. He may also have advantage vs Wolf, but I personally think he goes even with both Zelda and Wolf. He is at disadvantage vs Dedede since it is hard to camp at that "optimal" range vs him.

He beats MK since he can camp him and since he can kill MK easier then MK can kill him and he outranges him. The match-up is 60/40 Marth, meaning Marth has advantage, but not a huge one. He actually beats Pit thanks to being able to camp Pit once he gets past the arrows. Again, the match-up looks to be about 60/40 for Marth.

And then Marth goes even with a slew of high tier candidates although he beats the rest of them. He goes even with Lucario, Pikachu, Olimar, Lucas, Fox, Sheik and maybe a few others.

So overall...Marth has some weird match-ups. He beats two top tier candidates, goes even with a bunch and then loses to one. And then he goes even with some high tiers, but beats other high tiers and all lower tiered characters.

For the record some of the matches are debatable IMO, but I feel like I'm fairly accurate in my analysis.

So there you have it folks. I honestly don't know where Marth will place on the tier list.

Bottom of top tier or number one in high tier seem to be the most likely spots IMO.

But no matter where he places it should be obvious that...

Marth is good.

Give me feedback people and tell me what you think.

 

[OMAR the O]

Wow that is long. I'll read all of it later and comment.

 

[Zankoku]

Most of it seems good...

I dislike Marth's dash in many cases, because though it's fast, it's got a LOT of opening frames which means shield-dashing is pretty ineffective, and his dash attack isn't very amazing. Might want to mention that.

Also, though Marth's recovery reaches far and all, forcing him to Up+B onto the stage rather than the ledge leaves him vulnerable for a LONG time after landing. Good thing edgehogging was largely nerfed in Brawl.

Usmash has some pretty ridiculous hitboxen. It seems to have a tipper-class hitbox on Marth's sides, which makes it very possible to kill with a running usmash even against a grounded opponent..

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dash to Dancing Blade is too good. He can do it in the opening animation.

Also dash attack is ok. Not too good, but not bad either really.

U-smash is..wierd.

It has this suction effect that kinda throws opponents into the sweetspot about half the time.

 

[HolyChef]

Wow that is long. I'll read all of it later and comment.

thanks for the memo. i CANt wait to hear what you have to say......................

nice unintentional guide btw.
i think most of the community already agrees that marth is good, as in top or at least high tier. i think hes top but not top of the top tier because u cant put anyone there as of right now.

i would say that dedede probably has one of the biggest advantage over marth. his range is better. he has "projectiles." and he can chaingrab. i basically hate dedede, thats all

 

[alchfilosofer]

(...)

Also, though Marth's recovery reaches far and all, forcing him to Up+B onto the stage rather than the ledge leaves him vulnerable for a LONG time after landing. Good thing edgehogging was largely nerfed in Brawl.
(....).

for that thing, you can do this http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160399

also i think EmblemLord forget to ad about the broken recovery a fully charged shied-breaker can do.

 

[VietGeek]

I think he did...excellent "guide" though. It's kinda long, but the overview of things is still extremely easy to comprehend.

A notice to those who might attempt Shield Break recovery though:

Should you hit the ledge instead of move onto the stage, Marth will not be able to auto-grab the ledge. That, combined with the fact that the huge horizontal momentum from the fully charged Breaker in the air, means that on stages like Final Destination, you could instead suicide yourself while you could have safely landed on the stage by various other methods.

Also, it's safe to assume that the Breaker recovery is novelty or to prevent a successful edgeguard from the foe, as it only works if you've been hit upwards because you only have enough time to fully charge it then. You can also semi-charge it, and Marth lunges slightly depending on how long you've charged it. Back to the full Breaker: if you can calculate/memorize when to start charging the Shield Breaker when you've been smashed upward away from the ledge, you can ensure that you'll thrust into the opponent, and then send the foe back, break a the shield, or KO them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

5th page = unacceptable.

 

[Torn]

Agreed

Haha, it doesn't seem to me as though Marth Vader would require this enormous amount of well-reasoned evidence to be cemented in the peoples' mind as a "good character."

As Emblem_Lord revels in telling us, Marth is an extremely quick (light) character with strong aerials and powerful smashes (sometimes easily negated.) Tipped, his f-smash can kill at percentages as low as 70%, and his Dancing Blade more often than not kills at 140%.

His woefully nerfed dair is a spike (meteor smash? Haven't tested) that may kill at percentages as low as 10% if the opponent sucks or is scratching thier nose (one non-tipped fair to put them out over the abyss.)

As Emblem_Lord mentioned, most would probably contend that one of Marth's most apparent weaknesses is the fact that he's startlingly easy to edgehog (has edgehogging really been nerfed from Melee? I remember it being harder to hug, but edgehogging is a stock any way you slice it.)

The viewing public will be delighted to be reminded, however, as a corollary, that if you force yourself to make sweetspotting your recovery a habit, it becomes less easy to edgehog the Prince.

So...do that.

Summarily, if a Marth player can integrate short-hops and fast-falling into their routine to tighten up their aerial game and knows how to tip an f-smash on Battlefield, they will normally find on their hands an outstanding character that can be pretty much aggressive as he wants (Danimals vs. Futile notwithstanding) and be a tremendous force to be reckoned with on the tournament scene.

Also, his RAR is pretty bomb.

 

[TickleMePick1e]

no marth sucks my biggest gripe is that he has so much lag in his moves and his range isnt even that great no projectiles &his sheild breaker has the narrowest hit box. At first i thought he was good but he cant stand up againts kirby or diddy their smashs are as fast as marths tilts so the smash has priority . the can attack so fast marths smashs are soooo slow and he can be punished easily i say marth is slow and i only do jabs and tilts his fastest move playing my brother has made me not use smash attacks it just not worth it but his uptilt is the best in the game barnone. it sucks cuz i love marth but he inmt good. for example my marth loses to my brothers diddy 3-1 but my pit ***** 3-1 if im marth my bro dominates the match but if im pit its **** and im a really good marth player,l m when my bro is pit im marth he wins when we are both pit i win. when my friend and i have a marth ditto match he can win 50 % but when im pit or ddd it 100 % my way and its not like i dont use marth that much i play in practice mode about 2 hours a day with him 90% of the time i am marth. i have about 4 friends i play smash with and with marth its 50//50 but pit and ddd and even kirby its my way its also the fact that marth doesnt have those fast jabs and marth cant combo like kirby or diddy does anyyone think that marth is to light but not fast enough

 

[Torn]

C-Stick

@ Tickle: Well, if you're finding your smashes have too much start-up lag, you could probably try using the C-Stick to execute your smashes.

It's true that if shielded, Marth's smashes are easily punishable (I'm looking at you, Snake,) but the start-up lag is cut in half if you use your C-Stick effectively. A C-Sticked f-smash comes out almost as quickly as his Dancing Blade, if you pull it out during some stun time.

It is true that you shouldn't run around trying to approach people with f-smashes, but as punishes and finishers, Marth's smashes are pretty much beyond compare.

If you try that and Marth's lag is still unbearable, by all means, feel free to shift your endlessly valued attention to Luigi or Metaknight.

 

[Pseudoshot]

Only thing that really grinds my gears is that you can't parry projectiles with fair, especially explosives cause they, well, explode on you. Tried parrying Lucas's pkfire and I still get hit by the explosion when the fair blade hits it.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Once again an excellent thread by Emblem Lord, another pro about Marth is his insane foxtrot, which can give you many options, and you can fsmash very fast out of it (although there still might be a tad of lag).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pseudoshot: Marth can swat most projectile you just have to space it right vs Luca's PK Fire.

There have been times where I swat it and get hit though. Just perfectshield it then.

TickleMePick1e: I would come up with a counter argument, but I already did.

See my first post in the thread.

ROFL.

But seriously you know nothing. You said Marth's smash attacks are slow. So, I know that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Also you said Dedede's smashes are fast.

What are you smoking exactly?

 

[Jibbles]

no marth sucks my biggest gripe is that he has so much lag in his moves and his range isnt even that great no projectiles &his sheild breaker has the narrowest hit box. At first i thought he was good but he cant stand up againts kirby or diddy their smashs are as fast as marths tilts so the smash has priority . the can attack so fast marths smashs are soooo slow and he can be punished easily i say marth is slow and i only do jabs and tilts his fastest move playing my brother has made me not use smash attacks it just not worth it but his uptilt is the best in the game barnone. it sucks cuz i love marth but he inmt good. for example my marth loses to my brothers diddy 3-1 but my pit ***** 3-1 if im marth my bro dominates the match but if im pit its **** and im a really good marth player,l m when my bro is pit im marth he wins when we are both pit i win. when my friend and i have a marth ditto match he can win 50 % but when im pit or ddd it 100 % my way and its not like i dont use marth that much i play in practice mode about 2 hours a day with him 90% of the time i am marth. i have about 4 friends i play smash with and with marth its 50//50 but pit and ddd and even kirby its my way its also the fact that marth doesnt have those fast jabs and marth cant combo like kirby or diddy does anyyone think that marth is to light but not fast enough

...no comment

 

[Torn]

Dashdancing, wavebouncing, and stutter-stepping.

Once again an excellent thread by Emblem Lord, another pro about Marth is his insane foxtrot, which can give you many options, and you can fsmash very fast out of it (although there still might be a tad of lag).

Speaking of advanced techniques, I find that Marth's astoundingly easy-to-perform dashdance and the ends to which he can effectively utilize both the wavebouncing and stutter-stepping techniques launch him solidly ahead of most of the cast of characters.

Not much to say on the subject of dashdancing, except dashdancing into a grab has been tremendously nerfed on account of Marth's abysmal running-grab range and the general un-usefulness of his throws. Still, dashdancing is an incredible tool for mindgames and ninja attacks, so Marth's ability to do it without ANY effort whatsoever is a great feature of a great character.

For wavebouncing. go look at the wavebouncing thread (the creator hates the term wavebouncing) and check out his explanation for how Marth is the second-best candidate for utilizing this revolutionary technique. It's not hard to imagine the metagame devolving to such a point where Marth dittos are principally composed of the two characters dancing around and twisting their specials in midair using the wavebouncing technique. Thanks are definitely owed to the creator of this usage. But is it worth giving up your C-Stick? Some swear by it and others are loathe to use it, but it remains to be seen exactly how revolutionizing this technique will be for the Marth community.

And as far as stutter-stepping goes, it helps to ease the lag-transition that Tickle mentioned earlier and I responded to. Not being where you were when you started your tipped f-smash might more often than not turn out to be a huge advantage in almost every matchup, especially D3. I can definitely see stutter-stepping become a necessity in fighting D3's near unapproachability as far as that matchup goes.

Also:

TickleMePick1e: I would come up with a counter argument, but I already did.

See my first post in the thread.

ROFL.

But seriously you know nothing. You said Marth's smash attacks are slow. So, I know that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Also you said Dedede's smashes are fast.

What are you smoking exactly?

Oh, okay, so we're being contemptuous of this guy? I actually felt pretty angry when I read his post but I restrained myself because of the possibility that his opinion would be accepted by everyone and I would look like a jerk. Yeah, my original response to that post was informative and kind. It probably shouldn't have been.

Torn

 

[BacklashMarth]

no marth sucks my biggest gripe is that he has so much lag in his moves and his range isnt even that great no projectiles &his sheild breaker has the narrowest hit box. At first i thought he was good but he cant stand up againts kirby or diddy their smashs are as fast as marths tilts so the smash has priority . the can attack so fast marths smashs are soooo slow and he can be punished easily i say marth is slow and i only do jabs and tilts his fastest move playing my brother has made me not use smash attacks it just not worth it but his uptilt is the best in the game barnone. it sucks cuz i love marth but he inmt good. for example my marth loses to my brothers diddy 3-1 but my pit ***** 3-1 if im marth my bro dominates the match but if im pit its **** and im a really good marth player,l m when my bro is pit im marth he wins when we are both pit i win. when my friend and i have a marth ditto match he can win 50 % but when im pit or ddd it 100 % my way and its not like i dont use marth that much i play in practice mode about 2 hours a day with him 90% of the time i am marth. i have about 4 friends i play smash with and with marth its 50//50 but pit and ddd and even kirby its my way its also the fact that marth doesnt have those fast jabs and marth cant combo like kirby or diddy does anyyone think that marth is to light but not fast enough

Reading this hurts my corneas Anyway, good marth can **** a Pit at least 70% of the time. His sparrows are such a noob tactic that most marthers (i hope) are past it now or at least can get past it eventually.Ok, give me time and i will show you how badly marth can whoop pit. As for kirby and diddy kong..........lmao. Kirby is light and easily killable and diddy kong can be gimped on recovery. Nuff said. In escence, marth is the perfect character (perfect used lightly, let me explain). He isn't cheap, he cant really spam an attack and not be punished, and he has no godly advantages over anyone.

 

[shrinkray21]

Like no offense to this thread, but as a pure question...is there anyone saying that marth isn't a good character?? I was under the assumption that he is the easiest to pick up and still has a blossoming meta game...I guess that I took what has been stated here for granted.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mew2King was arguing with me awhile back, so I kinda made this thread to shut him down as well as anyone who thought Marth sucked. It was just to show that Marth overall is a solid character.

Also Mew2King and I live in the same state and we tend to bump heads alot when it comes to strategy and characters.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Mew2king thinks Marth sucks? I thought he was maining him, I guess you learn something new everyday.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No. We BOTH think Marth is top of high tier.

It's just that when he talks about Marth he puts him down or acts like Marth isn't good which annoys me to no end.

That and he says stupid things.

But enough about M2K. I don't need him bugging me on AIM or coming into this thread saying that I'm bad mouthing him.

Also he left Marth for Dedede.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

m2k just can't resist the urge to chaingrab it seems.

 

[Torn]

Di

m2k just can't resist the urge to chaingrab it seems.

Quick question: I don't fight D3s very often, and I don't really read much about him, but I heard that DI out of chaingrab at 0% is possible even if the D3's executing it perfectly. True/false?

Torn

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I think you might be able to but only with certain characters.

 

[alchfilosofer]

Quick question: I don't fight D3s very often, and I don't really read much about him, but I heard that DI out of chaingrab at 0% is possible even if the D3's executing it perfectly. True/false?

Torn

i think up-b (immunity frames at the start of the move) is better counter against D3 chain grab