Marth Matchup. Help!

[McNinja]

It seems I'm having quite a bit of trouble with this matchup. If you have ANY advice or tips when fighting marth, I would appreciate it if you posted them here. For example, tips on how to get back on stage, tips on how to edgeguard, tips on his different approaches, etc. Thanks for your help!

 

[rhan]

Here's a decent match of me playing against a decently good Marth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYIicNOQauA

Probably the best I've ever done against a Marth.

Other than that. It's ****ing difficult. I just play a different character.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The most important part of winning this MU is to loudly complain that it's a MU that Marth wins.

They'll get really flustered and try to explain that sword is useless against Samus and that Marth cannot combo, edgeguard, or gimp Samus. They'll cite missiles as a huge problem and add that Samus's crouch cancel is broken.

During this time, you hit them.

 

[Pi]

stay on the ground
approach with ALL of the following
walk, run, wavedash, and any other form of grounded approach you can cook up
dash attack him if he's in the air and going to land
attack between his sword swings
and ftilt him to guess

ORR you can standing missiles and force him into the air or to start doing something else stupid to deal with them when he can just stand there and jab them all day, but they never do, also they mess up jabbing missiles w/ that big *** sword cause marth players are bad

any way, yea, and watch plup vs. marth's

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

 

[Pi]

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

 

[Pluplue]

LMAO nice exchange

 

[McNinja]

Thanks Lee! The advice really helps. Yeah Plup's videos really help as well (btw you rock Plup). Anyways, any other advice is still welcome.

 

[Van.]

I want to know who started the rumor that its easy to jab missiles

 

[Pi]

not a rumor ur bad baddie

 

[McNinja]

**** you marth is 8th best in the game cant combo or ko unless they DI in main marth or stfu fool
Edit: -van

 

[Pi]

marth is sooooooo easssyyyy

 

[McNinja]

Lol in case you didn't notice, that's van. Speaking through my account. And as KirbyKaze said, when the opponent marth is ranting, this is the time to strike, right?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I want to know who started the rumor that its easy to jab missiles

I did.

 

[Van.]

marth is sooooooo easssyyyy to play against

agree

I did.

Marths jab is the laggiest in the game. If samus shoots a missile at any proximity marth can't jab it without being grabbed/dash attacked. "omg wd back jab" doesnt work you STILL get grabbed. Missiles are viable for forcing marth to jump, jabbing only works to shut down hardcore, edge of FD missile camping, and who does that ****. Jabbing is not a viable anti-missile tactic for Marth*














*Inconclusive. Jabbing may be a viable anti-missile tactic for Marth

 

[KirbyKaze]

Excuse me, Roy is the laggiest jab at the game.

And please don't say dumb things like "jabbing missiles with Marth is bad because if I do them at close enough range I can be punished". First off, jab is mainly an anti-missile strategy at medium-long range and it's meant to keep them from trolling you. Second, you should not be jabbing AC missiles at point blank with Marth for the reasons you listed, HOWEVER: if Samus is getting punishes off you jabbing missiles, she has to be shooting aerial missiles (because that's the only way she could be close enough, and lagless enough to action after the missile and punish the low lag of jab clanking). In this case, your goal should be to freaking hit her in the freaking face with your giant freaking sword because she's shooting aerial missiles at point blank. Fair. Nair. F-tilt. Moves. Like, seriously, she's in the air. Doing things with massive startup. Hit her.

Also, don't be stealing my asterisk techniques. Freaking biter.

<3

 

[Van.]

Excuse me, Roy is the laggiest jab at the game.

And please don't say dumb things like "jabbing missiles with Marth is bad because if I do them at close enough range I can be punished". First off, jab is mainly an anti-missile strategy at medium-long range and it's meant to keep them from trolling you. Second, you should not be jabbing AC missiles at point blank with Marth for the reasons you listed, HOWEVER: if Samus is getting punishes off you jabbing missiles, she has to be shooting aerial missiles (because that's the only way she could be close enough, and lagless enough to action after the missile and punish the low lag of jab clanking). In this case, your goal should be to freaking her in the freaking face with your giant freaking sword because she's shooting aerial missiles at point blank. Fair. Nair. F-tilt. Moves. Like, seriously, she's in the air. Doing things with massive startup. Hit her.

Also, don't be stealing my asterisk techniques. Freaking biter.

<3

Lee was talkingabout jabbing long range missiles, and for some reason i started talking about jabbing non long range missiles for some reason. using swf in psych class johns

its still fair to state that i had no ****in clue you were supposed to just hit her when she tries to AC missile within your range

but long range missiles, pffft, its prob better to use up air or some ****, just so you don't get bored.

your asterisk techs are mine now. take it as a life lesson: nighas always want what 'chu got

 

[Pi]

i was always under the impression that jab was lagless enough (swatting missiles) that i couldn't attack it before marth could jab again

i know for sure ftilt is too laggy to do that ish though many marth's still do that

i'm pretty sure jab can't be punished unless i'm in ur face already

and kk when did u turn into an elitist *** gtfo my boards stupid sheik main

 

[Van.]

i'm pretty sure jab can't be punished unless i'm in ur face already

you're in my face

and bad marths do the ftilt thing on accident. The last time a marth purposely used ftilt for anything was mid-05

 

[Pi]

heyyy don't sleep on ftilt, it's pretty good (seriously)
comes out low and fast, range is a bit surprising, safer than fsmash, tipper kills

 

[KirbyKaze]

and kk when did u turn into an elitist *** gtfo my boards stupid sheik main

Stay free at this game!

 

[Niko45]

The thing about the Marth matchup is that he has a giant freaking sword and then he potentially swings this giant freaking sword and then he also did I mention has a giant enormous sword and I think it can cut you IRL if you try to missile to close but really he has a giant freaking sword and at times a seemingly mammoth humongous sword and basically the way this game works is that swords are better than kicks which are better than guns but sometimes guns and kicks are tied and punching sucks most of the time so the best you can do is samus kick moves and maybe the sword will not be as gigantic as most experts estimate.

 

[McNinja]

Hmm yes this sword is quite a problem. It's actually the entire reason I posted this thread. Now that we know Marth has a big sword, what can we do about it?

 

[Pi]

just don't challenge the sword, hit him when he whiffs it
how to get him to whiff it? baiting

 

[McNinja]

Sorry, I'm a bit of a noob to competitive smash. I just started a few months ago. My first tournament is today. Would a good way to bait be to dash forward and WD back? Or maybe Dashdancing?

 

[Pi]

^yea those are good
any way u can make ur oppoenent attack where ur not, anything you can possibly think of doing to do that while being in a position to punish is good

 

[Citizen Snips]

I don't know why you guys have so much trouble with this. Seriously, Spaceballs beat Darkrain, and Falcon ***** Marth, and Spaceballs is Samus, therefore Samus ***** Marth.

-Inui

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I know nothing about this matchup but just some things on top of my mind, I've been observing my friend who has a pretty good Samus and does well against marths, just correct me if I'm wrong about anything (KK plz do not hitlerize me)


-Spam missiles like ****, seriously, who cares if marth can destroy 90% of them, one missile does like 12%, bottom line, they will get hit at some point. Force marth to approach you, you don't really need to, you have the projectiles right? If you want to win really bad, choose FD and play gay. When you force your opponent to approach you are in a good position because then you can focus on baiting and punishing his approaches while racking up damage

-Abuse the **** out of your cc, marth can combo you with fairs once you get into air so try to stay in ground and hit marth with dsmash / ftilt, you can shut most of his approaches with cc combined with missiles, sure if he spaces fairs perfectly it is hard but I've yet to see anyone do it with perfect consistency against Samus, most of the time Marth gets hit by the dsmash. If they try to grab you shoot missiles, abuse your spotdodge and punish with dsmash accordingly. I'm telling you, once marth gets punished couple of times for trying stupid **** like grab you they will try to approach you from the air with fairs (because nair can be cc'd). Use this to your advantage, also try to learn how to DI grabs so that punishment is minimal

-Ok, my marth sucks really bad (actually, I do too) but I've always found this matchup bit tricky for marth mostly because of the fact that Samus in general can kill Marth on lower percentages than Marth can kill Samus. This is a very common problem for marth in various matchups (Peach comes to mind also), without tippers he's having hard time killing you. Use this to your advantage and focus on your DI and how to survive as long as possible

Good luck

 

[McNinja]

Awesome! That's great advice Novice. Even though you "know nothing about this matchup", that seems pretty spot on. Oh, and a quick question. I'm assuming since its always good to be underneath marth that a cc'd down tilt could work wonders?

 

[Citizen Snips]

Awesome! That's great advice Novice. Even though you "know nothing about this matchup", that seems pretty spot on. Oh, and a quick question. I'm assuming since its always good to be underneath marth that a cc'd down tilt could work wonders?

My sarcasm sense is tingling...

 

[Pi]

cc dtilt/dsmash is good
if they start shielding
cc grab

 

[KirbyKaze]

Having the most ridiculous ground movement, and precision to space with it, and the ability to detect habits so you can sometimes cheat through his disjointed hitboxes...

That's the only way Samus has this one.

It's kind of lame because Samus's great anti-low range shield game is pretty much useless against Marth like 60% of the time. The remaining 40% is split into 10% (being when Marth does a smash when he shouldn't) and 30% is WD back oos (or maybe WD oos in general; I dunno how HugS does it but he gets a bunch of WD oos forwards to work). It totally baffles me, but I guess he's just got really complex spacing with Samoose (or maybe they're reads? Or a mix? Too good).

So yeah, I think you just gotta be really well-spaced, CC things when you can't block them for whatever reason (true CC! Even if you can't punish, preventing knockdowns and launches is extremely important because Samus is awful against Marth there), DI to minimize combo damage, be unpredictable when coming back to the ground or somehow trick him into letting you touch a platform and then work from there, constantly reset to neutral when you can't get in, and grind it out with your single hits and 2/3-step combos. Samus's poor punishment is seriously a huge problem...

Unless the Marth doesn't know the MU in which case strategy CC d-smashes and WD oos d-smashes will probably be what wins it for you. And if Marth doesn't understand how good CC punishes are versus panic combo break side-Bs and fairs, you can get some seriously dirty illegitimate combos and great tradeoffs.

I'm not sure how I feel about the u-tilt edgeguard that almost everyone does. The techability looks lame and it looks like it takes a ton of precision and timing. There has to be something easier. Can you guys do anything that tacks damage on at medium percent like ledgehop dair > WD by him or pivot [I guess] > f-smash? If they DI it badly, or you position the dair so they can't DI deeper into the stage effectively, it seems like it could be plausible and probably do a lot of damage. But I don't play this character so I dunno. Someone should test it though; in my brain it works out. If WD is too slow, try pivot. If he DIs offstage, I'd imagine you could soft dash attack or something before he gets away and try to gimp him from there, or do another edgeguard iteration (depending on what he does).

But yeah I dunno. Whenever I see a Marth like Chillin, PC Chris, or M2K that really knows how to abuse Samus it always looks really hard for her. And like she needs to constantly outplay him. I mean, her longevity makes that semi-viable because it gives you more time to be the better player, but that's still really hard and really taxing mentally.

 

[Pi]

ftlit is really good vs. marth UB
as far as letting him touch ground and fsmashing/dsmashing/dair sweet spot bair
they all put him at ridiculously high angles, and at mid percents he can make it back to the stage w/ room to spare
you'd have to rely on intercepting him as he makes his way back
with ftilt/down angled fsmash/uptilt it puts him in a bad position, without a jump, and with enough time for you to get onto the edge for the edgegaurd if applicable
but mainly it's keeping him w/o a jump which makes things just a whole lot easier
utilt is really slow which is why i prefer ftilt, but since utilt is so slow it makes teching it a lot harder since it's so delayed
i get my ftilt's teched at least 50% more of the time than my utilts

samus' ground game get's shut down pretty hard when the marth starts camping dtilts,
though most marth's won't do that cause they want their phat combo's


my CC punishes keep getting shielded and it's so hard to break that habit and start cc grabbing...but every time i do it it work's, i just want the dsmash/dtilt so badly!

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wonder if you could shoot a grounded power missile if you read Marth d-tilting and have it go over the tilt and hit him. Crazy prediction and timing is required, and it's almost assuredly pure unadulterated jank, but I think going in the air is the last thing Samus wants to do against him. Running in and CCing back probably doesn't really work if he puts effort into his spacing or just camps harder... bleh. Marth's down tilt is so ridiculous...

And anything ground missile related obviously fails up close. Or if Marth just blocks. Or jump back sword swings! And many other things! Marth so good!

Regarding the dair thing, I think Marth coming down from the air (it's one of the few situations he's sort of forced to approach sort of predictably) is actually a really good thing and it's one of the things I like about the ledgehop dair strat because it potentially does a lot of damage if you can outspace his defense or time something through it (or force a trade). But Samus isn't Sheik, and I'm not sure how well she could play against Marth coming down.

On paper, I'd imagine his spacing is sort of compromised a bit because no matter what he does he has to return to either the stage or the edge and therefore has to move forward a bit (moving forward a lot is generally risky for him) but I'm not sure what Samus's options are there. I'd think even something gimmicky like nair oos would have potential to trade or whatever and put him on the ledge (which he generally dislikes) or off the stage (hates even more) but that's also without considering his stalls and DJ so I dunno lol.

Anyway, Marth is brutal. Also, I think CC grabbing with Samus takes balls of steel o_O

I'm actually pretty surprised at f-tilt being a move of choice against his Up+B. I always figured the low f-tilt didn't go low enough to hit him out of his sweetspot. Does low-angled f-tilt really go low enough to hit Marth out of his Up+B sweetspot? And avoid getting hit by his Up+B hitbox? That's really sick if so. I don't give that move enough credit. I swear people just slot her f-tilt in everywhere.


.

 

[Mahie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrlGFeA9dKQ

Try to watch as many Samus playing the match-up as you can, and look at how they punish each and every move, how they approach, how they bait etc.

 

[zDuck]

ftlit is really good vs. marth UB
as far as letting him touch ground and fsmashing/dsmashing/dair sweet spot bair
they all put him at ridiculously high angles, and at mid percents he can make it back to the stage w/ room to spare
you'd have to rely on intercepting him as he makes his way back
with ftilt/down angled fsmash/uptilt it puts him in a bad position, without a jump, and with enough time for you to get onto the edge for the edgegaurd if applicable
but mainly it's keeping him w/o a jump which makes things just a whole lot easier
utilt is really slow which is why i prefer ftilt, but since utilt is so slow it makes teching it a lot harder since it's so delayed
i get my ftilt's teched at least 50% more of the time than my utilts

samus' ground game get's shut down pretty hard when the marth starts camping dtilts,
though most marth's won't do that cause they want their phat combo's


my CC punishes keep getting shielded and it's so hard to break that habit and start cc grabbing...but every time i do it it work's, i just want the dsmash/dtilt so badly!

uhhhhhh down angled ftilt hits marth's sweet spot up-B O.o???

and KK up-tilt edgeguarding is really reliable after a bit of practice, down angled f-smash is the alternative but who does that anyways

 

[Pi]

hitting the sweet spot is something i'm not sure about since, well i guess the marths here don't sweet spot as much as they should, and we often are fighting on battlefield lol.

alternatively, as an edgeguard at low %'s, i do kind of like dsmash.

If they try to tech it, they will since it smashes them right into the stage, and if they tech jump and don't react to it then they're dead at any %

and if they tech and fall back down, you can do it again

i'm really not sure what hits his sweet spot though since like i said it seems to happen so rarely

as far as grounded missiling vs. marth dtilting
iirc he can dtilt clank w/ them. pretty stupid.

if i shoot them a bit higher, which requires missile canceling from the air (bad position), then he can't do it, but yea that comes w/ a lot of ish that could potentially get punished

though, uncharged shot may not clank w/ dtilt (go over it) and force a reaction of some sort, i'll have to try this out more but like i said no marth's ****in play the way they need too here lol

nair OoS as samus is pretty similar to nair OoS as sheik KK, so if you have any situations that it's useful aside from a direct punish of a whiffed move then feel free to share, granted yours is like 2 frames faster than ours but w/e

i don't find the opportunity to hit him w/ nair OoS too prevalent unless, like i mentioned, he whiffs a move over me. usually he's just spacing his **** if i'm shielding, so i find it more beneficial to continuously be moving, or shooting missiles, and make his spacing life hell

also i'm not sure where ur at w/ the dair thing, i thought we were talking about as an edgeguard, grabbing the ledge and forcing him to Ub onto the stage, and then dairing him, or waveland/pivot fsmash

 

[McNinja]

To Citizen Snips, no sarcasm in that post. and at Mahie, yeah I love watching samus vs marth matchups. I've seen a ton a Plup's videos, and all the marth matchups on the samus video thread. And at Lee, cc'd grabs really work? I would think they would be too slow. Huh. Ill have to try that out.

 

[Van.]

choose FD-Abuse the **** out of your cc, marth can combo you with fairs once you get into air

idk bout this. Grab=stock against a conscientious marth on fd.

plus, irdk why marth would fair samus, unless they were intentionally hitting with the top of the fair to send them up. once samus is above marth, its all about dat utilt/uair.