Marth Research and Information Compilation Thread

[I R MarF]

Since it seems Marth's metagame has come to a crawl, I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to compiling, researching, and discussing Marth gameplay tactics and strategies with the goal of progressing his capabilities at high-level play. Hopefully, this will inspire players to develop new tactics for the character as well as act as a resource for beginners. So it will also be somewhat of a community-created player guide in the end.
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This OP will act as a growing index of information with many categories that need contributions. I invite anyone who has any information to share about the following categories to post in this thread; I'll look at everything and add any information that would help, if you got your information from some where, please post where you got it from. Beneath each category, I'll explain what kind of information which would be appropriate.

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HOW TO CONTRIBUTE: (for example) post something like: "For III.a. (That means category three, part A btw), you can moonwalk with Marth by walking with Marth in one direction, then perform the moonwalk motion in the opposite direction. It could be used to get running momentum into a backwards jump, edge-hogging, or mindgames.

TBH, no suggestion would be a bad one (except for obvious joke suggestions), this is a Marth research thread after all. The goal is not to create a specific way to play Marth but rather several new tactics that can be used by Marth.

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Note: Quotes may be paraphrased for presentation's sake. I'm primarily using the quote feature as a way to cite where the information cmae from more so than what an individual precisely said.

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INDEX/CATEGORIES/SUBJECTS:

I. General Statistics
Basic Information on Marth
1. Weight
>Weight: 87 [NTSC] 85 [PAL] (16th heaviest character in NTSC, tied for 16-20th in PAL)*
2. Walking Speed
>2nd fastest walk (Though technically tied with Fox... Fox accelarates to his top walk speed faster)*
3. Running Speed
>5th fastest run (Though technically tied with Sheik and Pikachu, they both accelerate to their top walk speed faster)*
4. Jumping Speed/Landing Lag
>Airborne on frame 5*
>Landing lag: 6 frames*
5. Full Hop Statistics
>5th highest full hop*
6. Short Hop Statistics
>10th highest short hop*
7. Double Jump Statistics
>Tied for 16th highest double jump*
8. Falling Speed
>6th fastest falling speed*
9. Fast Falling Speed
>11th fastest falling speed*
10. Crouching Height
>Marth is tied for 9th lowest crouch*
11. Spot Dodge/Air Dodge
12. Rolls
>2nd longest rolls*
13. Wavedash
>4th longest WD/4th lowest traction*
14. Grab Range
>4th longest grab range and longest non-tether grab*
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* = From M2K statistic listings, can be found at http://www.smashboards.com/showthre...rl]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9uzuFbJgvY[/QUOTE]
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(Will create link soon!)

II.b. Hitbox Properties
1. Percents
2. Trajectories
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(Special thanks to Chipmunk for the link to the edgeguarding hitboxes)
The game tells us that Marth's sword is stronger at the tip and weaker at the base, but anyone who plays Marth knows there is definitely more too it than that. I will eventually cite all percentage related information, but if you have any information related to the different angles of trajectories certain hitboxes perform, please suggest them for this category.


III. Movement

III.a. General Movement
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If you have any tips, contributions, and ideas for Dash Dancing, Wavedashing, Moonwalking, spacing, etc. Please mention them for this category.

III.b. Approaching
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If you have any tips, contributions, and ideas specifc to approaching, please mention them for this category.

III.c. Evading
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If you have any tips, contributions, and ideas specific to Evading , please mention them for this category.

III.d. Stage Specific Movement
1. Final Destination
2. Battlefield
3. Yoshi's Story
4. Fountain of Dreams
5. Dreamland 64
6. Pokemon Stadium
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If you have any tips, tricks, ideas, whatever specific to one or more of these stages, please mention them for this category. Also, if you have a contribution for a stage that isn't mentioned above, please post your idea and I'll add both the stage and your ideas.


IV. Shields
Information with Marth and shields

IV.a. Shield-stun Frame Data
See Phanna's Frames of Hitlag and Shield Stun (12 chars done) thread
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(Will quote Marth specific information from above thread soon!)

IV.b. Against Shield Tactics
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If you have any suggestions for dealing with shields, please mention them for this category.

IV.c. Out of Shield Options
See Wiseman.'s Out of Shield Options frame data thread

>Suggestions on fighting against shield pokes:

Marth has a very small shield and he suffers shield poking quite frequently. One way to get around this which Marth players need to do a helluva a lot more often is shield tilting; shield tilting is where you tilt the control stick and actually move the shield to cover whatever part of your body needs covering. Another remedy is lightshielding (by pressing L or R lightly). This causes your shield to be larger, but you suffer more knockback. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse.

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(Special thanks to Construct)
(Again, will quote Marth specific information from above thread soon!)
If you have any suggestions for Marth players who are in shield, please mention them for this category.



V. Combos
A category dealing with Marth's combos

V.a. True Combos
1. Combos Using Throws
2. Combos Without Throws
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A "true combo" would be any combo that would read as "consecutive hits" if performed in training mode. Just saying: "for V.a., ugh... KEN COMBO!" Is not a suggestion. We want to hear percents, character specific information, if it still works with DI, etc.

V.b. Limited Opponent Action Combos
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I'm not sure if they even exist, but these would be combos that don't read as consecutive hits, but 1. occur quick enough to the point where an opponent wouldn't be able to react properly. 2. There exist frame(s) where the opponent is out of hit stun, but it does not give them enough time to actually do anything. Or 3. There exist frames where the opponent is able to act, but if they chose to perform these counter measures they are still punished for them. Again, percent and character information is needed when making suggestions for this section.

VI. Edge guarding

NOTE: Check out Marth's Hitbox properties under Section II
1. Onstage edgeguarding

The biggest problems with [onstage] edgeguarding [is] using [these] tactics is incredibly susceptible to sweetspotting

>Vs. Spacies (Fox and Falco)

You can edgeguard spacies in a similar fashion since they both have the same recovery options. On Falco there is a much larger window most of the time because his firefox is shorter, and does not hit you on startup.

Counter - Its an auto edgeguard practically granted you land it. Its incredible on battlefield in the situations you know spacies must firefox straight up. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what to do after a counter, you run off DJ fair, or up-b. For higher percentages, counter will actually pop spacies up high enough so they can illusion to grab the edge, so at higher percents (~90+) get ready to jab then fair/upb.

Cautions about this edgeguard though, its very VERY baitable. Spacies can go straight up in many situations, avoid the counter and grab the edge. They can also sweetspot into the stage and avoid the counter completely. Not only will that mean you missed an edgeguard opportunity, but you'll allow them to get a counter attack opportunity. I wouldn't recommend using it often if your opponent proved to you that he can either tech/or sweetspot against counter.

Dtilt - This is a great poking tool on the edge if your opponent missed the edge as he DJs. Its a pretty good tool to use against opponents coming up towards the edge. You can also use it as an alternative to counter as its faster in the event you miss and therefore safer. You can also use it against illusions that aren't perfectly sweetspotted.

As a side note, on Yoshi's Story if you crouch and dtilt on the slope at the edge of both sides of the stage, you can actually have his dtilt angle down and hit under the edge. Which is a nice bonus.

Fsmash - Similar to Dtilt with the added bonus that it cover all of the above AND firefox from above angled toward the edge. It takes a bit longer to end though, vs spacies I tend to shy away from this because its too 'conventional'. Its the first or second things spacies worry about while being edgeguarded. It is useful though, it hits quite far and often KOs on hit.

At lower percentages make sure that if you're planning to use this it tippers. It will barely do any KB at low percents if you don't and they may still have a chance to recover.

Jab - Typically this is my favorite and probably overused too in my inventory. Its incredibly fast, you can use it to react to certain situations and if it hits you can sometimes do another jab, or run off the stage with a FF fair to set up for a very easy edgeguard. Its similar to dtilt, except obviously its much higher. Its best used against illusions/firefoxes at a downward angle.

Problems with the jab is mainly that it can be sweetspotted against, it also increases your edgeguard's complexity since you have to follow up with a series of moves unlike fsmash.

>Supplementary Information

[when]edge guarding with counter: If you find your opponent can consistently hit the tip of Marth's foot that is not invincible during the counter, you can turn around the opposite direction and counter. The hitbox is the same, and Marth's back foot isn't exposed the entire time during the counter like his front foot is.

More edgeguarding stuffs: SH Fair and SH neutral b, when done correctly at the edge of the stage, hit below the stage and can effectively cover a sweetspot. As a bonus, they have little lag time in case your opponent chooses to take a different recovery option.

2. Offstage edgeguarding

>Vs. Spacies (Fox and Falco)

Run off stage FF fair - This tactic generally covers the option of a spacie just trying to DJ and sweetspot the edge. A very common scenario when you Dthrow them off stage or dtilt them off while they were onstage, etc. Basically your fair will encompass an enormous area directly below the stage, and will hit them lightly. Then you DJ upb and have it slightly hit your opponent, then as you grab the edge fall off DJ bair them away. It will often steal DJs if your opponent was not expecting it as well which makes edgeguarding even easier

The problem with this tactic is that its a fairly risky tactic. If your opponent expects it, they can DJ immediate airdodge up and avoid it. Vs spacies usually that means you'll be on the edge, in practice I've rarely SD'd vs spacies however. (I have SD'd a lot vs other characters though)

Run off stage DJ fair/dair - This tactic is if you will, the answer to the counter of the previous tactic. Basically you run off stage, your opponent gets spooked, you DJ then slowly land a dair or fair fsmash out of their airdodge. The plus side to this is vs sweetspotting illusions, where you can actually cover an area completely in front of the edge and deny the sweetspot. The difference in using fair or dair is dair requires more precision but will KO immediately and fair requires less precision but requires a followup.

The only real issue with this tactic is that it only covers 2 options they have. Its generally a safe option and fast however and still pretty useful.

Side-b - More often used vs falco against his firebird startup. It will often just lightly send him lower and you can just up-b to grab the edge. At higher percents, they can tech the up-b so be prepared with your ledgehop bairs if it comes to it. Another use which is a very rare situation is that you can actually side b while you grab the ledge against firefoxes and land a DJ dair or fall with a fair. Its funny but not a very common scenario.

(Using the ledge)

Ledgehop dair/bair/fair/upair - Usually used against firefox. To make this write up shorter, simply use the correct aerial depending on the situation and follow up. Ledgehop fair however is much more diffiicult to land as it usually has to be hit reverse in order for it to be a useful tactic. You can also regrab the edge if you fair.

Problem with this is that its very edge oriented, and therefore easy to see coming and easily avoided. If they can't do anything about it though why not right?

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(Special Thanks to Teczero, Shroomed, and Chipmunk)
If you have contributions, tactics, and situtations you can put your enemy in for edge guarding techniques. Please mention them for this category.

VII.Tactics, Techniques, and Tricks (AKA, anything I've missed)

VII.a. Recovering
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If you have any special techniques or ideas for recovering, please suggest them for this category

VII.b. Specific strategies against x character/tactic

>C. Falcon

Against Falcon, I think Marth is pretty good at forcing him to do something. Wavedashing in is better than throwing Marth's laggy *** fair out because you'll just get naired before the second one and once falcon touches you free 50% minimum.

Techchasing falcon is easy. And the more you scare someone by invading their space or w/e, the sooner they'll fall into scared noob habits.

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The title is self explanatory, if you have any suggestions for this category, please mention them.

VII.c. The General Tactics
1. Offense
2. Defense
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Again, self explanatory, please suggest if you have anything for them.

VIII. The Lab
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Any strange ideas or something you are not capable of testing but are intelligent "what ifs", can be suggested for here.

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Well that is basically it for now, let me know if another category should be added, i made a typo, or if there is something that needs change/clarification. Let the research begin.

 

[I R MarF]

Reserving second post just in case

 

[Construct]

Taken from the M2K database: http://web.archive.org/web/20070318....com/oovideogamegodoo/myhomepage/profile.html

1. Weight: Marth has a weight of 87 in NTSC and 85 in PAL. That puts him at 16th heaviest in NTSC, and tied for 16-20th in PAL. Weight affects the distance characters are knocked horizontally.
2. Walking Speed: Tied for fastest with fox, although Fox has faster acceleration.
3. Running Speed: Fifth. Captain Falcon>Fox>Sheik>Pikachu>Marth. It is noteworthy that the last three have the same running speed, they merely accelerate at different rates.
4. Jumping Speed/Landing Lag: 5 frames to jump, 4 frame landing lag.
5. Full Hop Statistics: Fifth highest full hop, Falco>Luigi>Falcon>DK>Marth.
6. Short Hop Statistics: Tenth highest short hop, the usual leaving ground and landing lag frames apply. Samus>Sheik>Yoshi/Zelda>Ganondorf>Peach>Falcon/Luigi>Kirby>Marth
7. Double Jump Statistics: Marth is tied at the 16th-20th second jump height with Samus, Doc, and Mario.
8. Falling Speed: Marth has the 9th fastest average falling speed.
9. Fast Falling Speed: Marth has the 11th fastest fastfalling speed.
10. Jumping Speed: Not sure what you're asking for here.
11. Crouching Height: Marth has the 9th lowest crouch, tied with Roy. The Mario brothers duck lower, but they raise their head to look around often which makes them taller overall.
12. Spot Dodge/Air Dodge: Spot dodge: Invincible for seventeen out of the twenty-seven frames. The invincibility starts on frame two.
Air dodge: Starts on frame four, and is invincible until frame twenty-nine. This is shared with the entire cast except Zelda, Peach, and Bowser.
13. Rolls: Roll invincibility and rolling starts on frame four. Marth's backwards roll is invincible twenty out of thirty-five frames, and has the second longest distance in the game (after Mewtwo's). Marth's forward roll is invincible sixteen out of thirty-five frames, and is the second farthest roll (after Mewtwo's).
14. Wavedash: Marth has the fourth longest wavedash in the game, after Luigi, Mewtwo, and the Ice Climbers.
15. Grab Range: Longest non-tether grab in game. Check the frame data to bask in its awesomeness.

EDIT: I just noticed you said not to bother with the general statistics research. OH WELL XD Great initiative for starting this. Hopefully the more experienced players will contribute.

 

[I R MarF]

Lol its all good. You actually saved me a lot of time, man. Thanks haha and I think I messed up with the second jumping speed. don't know how

 

[Inty17]

I don't know how this exactly falls into the category of IV. Shields, but I've been playing numerous Falcos recently and I keep getting shield poked by Falco's bair. It hits me square in the head. Marth's head and feet pop out of his shield, even at a near full shield. I don't know if this works the same for Fox. I imagine it would.

 

[Construct]

Marth has a very small shield and he suffers shield poking quite frequently. One way to get around this which Marth players need to do a helluva a lot more often is shield tilting; shield tilting is where you tilt the control stick and actually move the shield to cover whatever part of your body needs covering. Another remedy is lightshielding (by pressing L or R lightly). This causes your shield to be larger, but you suffer more knockback. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse.

 

[Fregadero]

It would be awesome if this thread actually took off. It looks like you've put a lot of work into planning this.

Just some tips for the thread as a whole.
-Include A LOT of links to other threads and video examples if possible.
-A section on older marth tactics and sub sections on what doesn't work anymore or needs tweaking. I think this would help us all get our heads out of our ***** and realize what antiquated options shouldn't be used in this metagame.
-Expand character specific area to include counterpicking options
-Maybe reorder some of the sections so it flows better. A nicely flowing guide will attract people. Nothing specific at the moment besides moving general gameplay more towards the front.
You should try and talk to some people and get some speed behind this. I was begging for something comprehensive for Marth when I got on smashboards, and this looks like it could do a good job.

Ill post some common knowledge and some of my opionions later, but heres some stuff. I've been talking about these a lot but I really think they could be useful.

Side b is a ridiculously underused option. It can replace jab and can be used defensively on the ground. In the air it can be used for spacing, recovery, zoning mixups, getting out out of combos, and chaining hits. It stops your momentum so I like to use it for juggles and lower to the ground so you can drop down after you combo it into something else.

Pivots yo.

Good luck getting this going I hope it works.

 

[I R MarF]

Thanks for the tips Beast Mode. I am also really hoping this takes off and I'll definitely do some digging. I'll try and contact some people as well and see if they could offer some solid information on the subject.

Also, for presentation, do you think you could perhaps give me a specific order of what you think would look best? I wasn't precisely sure when making it and thought it made sense but I am definitely open to your ideas.

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

Shield DI: Very useful for pushing you away from shield pressure that would usually get you (fox/falco aerials, peach dsmash in particular). Simply DI as you receive hitstun while inside of your shield and you should be able to slide farther away than normal. If the opponent doesn't expect this, you should be able to get a grab after since you should be out of shine range.

 

[Fregadero]

Lightshilding helps you slide further and makes shield pokes less likely.

More feedback in here tomorrow

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Hey guys. You can also shield grab if you light shield with Z, for those that have a hard time just regular light shielding. Just have to jump cancel grab instead, but it still works.

 

[Teczer0]

This seems like a cool idea.

I kinda wanna post a bunch of random info if anyone is interested in edge guarding. Maybe I'll edit this in a sec....

Ok so I'm probably not gonna post this all at once, there so much to marth's edgeguarding and I don't feel like writing a book but I'll do what I can. For now I'll post up vs spacies only (most of his edgeguards are kinda character specific)


vs Spacies:

You can edgeguard spacies in a similar fashion since they both have the same recovery options. On Falco there is a much larger window most of the time because his firefox is shorter, and does not hit you on startup.

So there are a large variety of options you can use against them as we all know, the most common edgeguards I use are:

To follow the format I guess I'll just start with onstage, since thats more limited:


Counter - Its an auto edgeguard practically granted you land it. Its incredible on battlefield in the situations you know spacies must firefox straight up. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what to do after a counter, you run off DJ fair, or up-b. For higher percentages, counter will actually pop spacies up high enough so they can illusion to grab the edge, so at higher percents (~90+) get ready to jab then fair/upb.

Cautions about this edgeguard though, its very VERY baitable. Spacies can go straight up in many situations, avoid the counter and grab the edge. They can also sweetspot into the stage and avoid the counter completely. Not only will that mean you missed an edgeguard opportunity, but you'll allow them to get a counter attack opportunity. I wouldn't recommend using it often if your opponent proved to you that he can either tech/or sweetspot against counter.

Dtilt - This is a great poking tool on the edge if your opponent missed the edge as he DJs. Its a pretty good tool to use against opponents coming up towards the edge. You can also use it as an alternative to counter as its faster in the event you miss and therefore safer. You can also use it against illusions that aren't perfectly sweetspotted.

As a side note, on Yoshi's Story if you crouch and dtilt on the slope at the edge of both sides of the stage, you can actually have his dtilt angle down and hit under the edge. Which is a nice bonus.

Fsmash - Similar to Dtilt with the added bonus that it cover all of the above AND firefox from above angled toward the edge. It takes a bit longer to end though, vs spacies I tend to shy away from this because its too 'conventional'. Its the first or second things spacies worry about while being edgeguarded. It is useful though, it hits quite far and often KOs on hit.

At lower percentages make sure that if you're planning to use this it tippers. It will barely do any KB at low percents if you don't and they may still have a chance to recover.

Jab - Typically this is my favorite and probably overused too in my inventory. Its incredibly fast, you can use it to react to certain situations and if it hits you can sometimes do another jab, or run off the stage with a FF fair to set up for a very easy edgeguard. Its similar to dtilt, except obviously its much higher. Its best used against illusions/firefoxes at a downward angle.

Problems with the jab is mainly that it can be sweetspotted against, it also increases your edgeguard's complexity since you have to follow up with a series of moves unlike fsmash.



The biggest problems with edgeguarding using the tactics above is that its incredibly susceptible to sweetspotting, so.......


Run off stage FF fair - This tactic generally covers the option of a spacie just trying to DJ and sweetspot the edge. A very common scenario when you Dthrow them off stage or dtilt them off while they were onstage, etc. Basically your fair will encompass an enormous area directly below the stage, and will hit them lightly. Then you DJ upb and have it slightly hit your opponent, then as you grab the edge fall off DJ bair them away. It will often steal DJs if your opponent was not expecting it as well which makes edgeguarding even easier

The problem with this tactic is that its a fairly risky tactic. If your opponent expects it, they can DJ immediate airdodge up and avoid it. Vs spacies usually that means you'll be on the edge, in practice I've rarely SD'd vs spacies however. (I have SD'd a lot vs other characters though)

Run off stage DJ fair/dair - This tactic is if you will, the answer to the counter of the previous tactic. Basically you run off stage, your opponent gets spooked, you DJ then slowly land a dair or fair fsmash out of their airdodge. The plus side to this is vs sweetspotting illusions, where you can actually cover an area completely in front of the edge and deny the sweetspot. The difference in using fair or dair is dair requires more precision but will KO immediately and fair requires less precision but requires a followup.

The only real issue with this tactic is that it only covers 2 options they have. Its generally a safe option and fast however and still pretty useful.

Side-b - More often used vs falco against his firebird startup. It will often just lightly send him lower and you can just up-b to grab the edge. At higher percents, they can tech the up-b so be prepared with your ledgehop bairs if it comes to it. Another use which is a very rare situation is that you can actually side b while you grab the ledge against firefoxes and land a DJ dair or fall with a fair. Its funny but not a very common scenario.

Again, uses are slightly limited, however still pretty good.

Ledgehop dair/bair/fair/upair - Usually used against firefox. To make this write up shorter, simply use the correct aerial depending on the situation and follow up. Ledgehop fair however is much more diffiicult to land as it usually has to be hit reverse in order for it to be a useful tactic. You can also regrab the edge if you fair.

Problem with this is that its very edge oriented, and therefore easy to see coming and easily avoided. If they can't do anything about it though why not right?




Uhhh thats it for now? I guess if I can think of others I'll add more.

I can also post up on more specific common scenarios that occur.

Wow all that almost got deleted on me. I woulda been so sooooooooooooo mad.

 

[I R MarF]

Thank you, Teczero. I'm pretty much adding everything in your post lol. And I think it would be great if you gave scenario specific tactics. Particularly tactics that have the ability to cover any possible option for the recovering character. (If they exist)

 

[.Chipmunk.]

To add to edge guarding with counter: If you find your opponent can consistently hit the tip of Marth's foot that is not invincible during the counter, you can turn around the opposite direction and counter. The hitbox is the same, and Marth's back foot isn't exposed the entire time during the counter like his front foot is.

More edgeguarding stuffs: SH Fair and SH neutral b, when done correctly at the edge of the stage, hit below the stage and can effectively cover a sweetspot. As a bonus, they have little lag time in case your opponent chooses to take a different recovery option.

 

[I R MarF]

To add to edge guarding with counter: If you find your opponent can consistently hit the tip of Marth's foot that is not invincible during the counter, you can turn around the opposite direction and counter. The hitbox is the same, and Marth's back foot isn't exposed the entire time during the counter like his front foot is.

More edgeguarding stuffs: SH Fair and SH neutral b, when done correctly at the edge of the stage, hit below the stage and can effectively cover a sweetspot. As a bonus, they have little lag time in case your opponent chooses to take a different recovery option.

SH Fair would actually edge cancel, so it'd probably have zero lag. I'll definitely add that.

 

[Van.]

I thought jab hit below the stage? I'm pretty sure it does...

 

[Teczer0]

I think it barely goes over the edge. It does hit pretty low.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9uzuFbJgvY

 

[Teczer0]

That... does hit really low lmao

 

[.Chipmunk.]

That... does hit really low lmao

Well, all marth's hitboxes go below the stage in some capacity, but we already know that that alone isn't sufficient enough to cover sweetspot.

 

[Teczer0]

Oh, yea I know.

I just didn't think it hit THAT low.

I mean I based most of my posts on my experience anyway, so sometimes I overlook details like that jab hitbox.

Its w/e

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm surprised Fair/Dair go that low. Does that beat out a sweetspot from fox/falco/marth, and other characters?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I'm surprised Fair/Dair go that low. Does that beat out a sweetspot from fox/falco/marth, and other characters?

They go that low because of the landing mechanic in melee. You land on your knees, not your feet. So with moves like fair/dair, Marth lifts his legs and therefore lands later on/drops lower to the stage. I would think they'd beat out a sweetspot since they extend beyond the ledge.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I was thinking more about edge guarding tactics vs the upb from the spacies, and I believe I've found a simplistic way to cover options and use the proper moves for it. I'd like some feedback on this though.

If the space animal is above the stage and uses the up b, you'd want to use a move that starts at the stage and rises like ftilt or jab or even bair.

If they are below the stage, you'd want to use a move that starts high and covers low like fsmash/neutral b/fair/dair (assuming counter is not an option).

So what do you guys think. Agree, Disagree? And I R, make sure you add that marth edgeguarding hitboxes youtube video to the guide if you please.

 

[Teczer0]

Not a bad idea though, you usually only wait on stage if you're also worried they may illusion instead of firefoxing.

If you read a firefox, jumping out and fairing/dairing/reverse up-b is probably a better idea.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Not a bad idea though, you usually only wait on stage if you're also worried they may illusion instead of firefoxing.

If you read a firefox, jumping out and fairing/dairing/reverse up-b is probably a better idea.

I have the tendency to tipper a fair on the top to send them higher, which sucks.

 

[Teczer0]

If its low percents you can actually just hover around for a dair.

You should practice fairing a little later than you normally would then btw. I had that problem for a while too so I know what you mean.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

K. I can try that. Also, sometimes you don't have time to jump out and hit them like if you send them across the stage or something.

 

[Archangel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9uzuFbJgvY

Funny thing is I actually requested that this and Ganon's video back when I was having trouble with the MU(Still do ). I remember seeing M2K do the FF Fair-Jab-WD ledge grab-dair and thinking....what the hell!

After seeing this though it makes since and FF fair-jab is pretty ****.

 

[Teczer0]

Yea, in that situation you just gotta do whatever you can.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If your going out offstage to hit a spacie using UpB, Nair easily replaces Fair.
Unless I'm misunderstanding the situation.

 

[Archangel]

If your going out offstage to hit a spacie using UpB, Nair easily replaces Fair.
Unless I'm misunderstanding the situation.

The discussion is about guarding the ledge not going off stage.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, maybe i should play with nair...why don't we use nair on foxes when they are offstage..surely it will send them farther guaranteeing death..but then i think fair is a guaranteed kill at most percents anyways...not sure at low percents whether nair or side b would be preferred to drag them down....

i'll test it sometime..

best part of this thread is i learned that aerial shieldbreaker hits lower than standing shieldbreaker (which seems to be pretty bad at covering sweetspot compared to dtilt or jab (dtilt covers low really well, while jab blocks phantasm for longer if they come at you in the air

 

[Supertramp]

Here's a neat trick for edgeguarding sheik sometimes. You have a sheik offstage, but not very far offstage. They are quite close to the ledge, and they have the option of attempting to grab the ledge with the first part of their Up-B (before the poof, the time in which she is still vulnerable). Facing inwards, moonwalk into SH late edgecancelled dair into edgehog. the dair will spike her if she attempts to go straight for the edge. If it hits, she'll die even at zero as you'll be hanging on the edge already and she'll be beneath you, so you can just roll on. Most good sheik's won't immediately go for the edge because they know they'll be ****ed if they get hit by any move during this time. If the dair did not hit, then you're on the edge at the exactly right time to gain invincibility frames to protect you from her Up-B. This means you can wait to see where she goes, and either just edgehog her if she goes for the edge or WD onstage into whatever if she recovers onstage.
It might sound kinda complicated but its pretty easy with practice and when they see the dair come out it usually confuses/messes up her choice of recovery. I moonwalk into the SH because the timing seems easier/more reliable to edgecancelling with, but you can do whatever into dair if you want. A good changeup if you're ever forced to play this ****ty matchup.

Also, is it possible to cc a move that sheild stabbed?

 

[mexicanmax227]

Under the movement category you could mention Long dash shield slide. If your still holding foward then marth slides at peak of dash when sheild is activated.