I'd kinda appreciate it if more than just Veril and I would talk this over. 5ive I wish you didn't **** up so you can give me some back-up but... *shrug*
Veril all you know is that we all agree that Fair needs to be changed. You seem to be turning a blind-eye to the fact that not all of us agree to the change at hand; especially since the "happy compromise" got changed at the last minute.
I don't like the change on the table, and unless Cape and Corey have been distributing the fix to some other 3rd-parties there really hasn't been much feedback on it that came from the people that main Marth. He's removing both frame 7 [original plan] and frame 6 [sudden "unvoted" change], frame 6 being that "all-encompassing" hitbox that is not only one of the main culprits for the camping issue but it's kinda also you know...the most reliable approach option for Marth. No character is going to proactively go for grabs the whole game, or even as his or her main way of getting damage (especially not Marth since he can't JC grab and DC grabs are borderline useless due to his humorously long initial dash).
Before you took a combo tool away from Marth, yeah whine whine, but taking a approach tool away is just mean ROFL. His other two aerials (Nair and Bair) are not viable approach tools, especially not Bair since Brawl programmed it to change directions as one of its first events, so I can't even SHFF it to prevent the turnabout anymore (so every time i wanna approach with Bair i have to add unnecessary frames for turning/RAR). Nair just hits too high up and only works well against tall characters (and I do mean tall) as an approach.
If I take away two frames off the hitbox I can't immediately FF from a shorthop and expect to hit a short opponent. If I delay a bit from my apex and SH then I can get a graze in. If I expect to approach a short opponent that has the brains to probably not be in the air the same moment I am, it's either a predictable delay to SHFF hit them, or approach with SHDF...
No one approaches with SHDF...unless you're like sandbagging or have ridiculously bad habits or something. It just doesn't work, especially not with the severely decreased range of Fair.
The Falco match-up suddenly becomes gayer because my farthest reaching hitbox just doesn't exist anymore. Now instead of having a near-even but difficult match-up, I have to work harder to just approach (and getting the approach does not mean a whole lot in the Brawl games; in Brawl+ you just usually eat more damage at worst). Approaching and approaching successfully mean very little since if you're not in Falco's face and killing him then Falco is essentially "winning" the stage control battle.
And Sheik...yeah let's not talk too much about Sheik. Sheik has even an EASIER time getting into Marth's discomfort zone and intercept with a dash attack and bye-bye Marth. Apply the same situation to MetaKnight.
These are only a few examples of how much more of a gamechanger this change would be over the last one. Yes, 6.0 Rarth requires more strings and pressure traps. But at least he can confidently approach without feeling someone has screwed him over drastically. Oh, so 7.0 Rarth has more real combos? Great! What's the chance of landing them?!
What good does having more combos (and also being able to put the dumb gimmick of double aerials from short-hop) mean if you lose such a reliable approach tool (just so no one misinterprets, Fair doesn't need to be nerfed in its reliability as an approach tool and also it IS THE approach tool for Marth)? the "new" fair is basically the front range of Uair except you can do it twice from a short-hop good ****. We said we were gonna "change it," but that usually means do better, not comparatively worse.
We all agreed to take off frame 7 on the hitbox. This way if Marth is camping then if you can get in under or behind Marth on/after frame 7, he's a sitting duck for a few frames. That's good that we killed off the fail-safe hitbox, but now we wanna one-up the quality of this change so we go ahead and kill the one that's also the outermost horizontal hitbox; just to make sure that camping can never happen again.
That's mighty noble of us, however I'm not keen on a "floatier Roy" either (Roy has a bad approach game in Melee; and his saving grace was his good mobility off of his FF-esque physics [which Marth+ mains hate] and the potency of grabs [overall weakened in Brawl and Brawl+ but now there's more ways to just 'get' the grab], JC grabs, and reactive edgeguarding over Brawl and Brawl+'s proactive system). Yes every time we nerf something integral to Marth I pull a Roy comparison, but it just tells everyone how better off Marth was, and how worse off Roy was. Unfortunately Rarth doesn't quite benefit from "being stuck in the limbo between the two" as so might suggest. It's rather detrimental to him really.
Cape has been away for a while so I haven't been able to ask him any questions but the fix looks to be worse than the laggier Fair. Everyone will more or less appreciate the minor physic changes but it seems no matter how we slice it, we always seem to put on the most radical changes into Marth's Fair, which instead of writing a 5 page essay on it, is basically Marth himself.
Yeah, we don't like one-move-wonders, but it's how he works. Instead of getting rid of this trait through forcible means, tone it down in a way that is more likely to "make everyone happy."
As is, it seems like we're taking the easy way out and manipulating the Marth whiners' poor foresight on the subject and then keep our mouths shut about it until another ****storm comes about. I thought those kinds of politics are gone from the WBR now. Plus I'm sure we don't need another "rebellion" that's actually serious the next time around.
I've added one frame in Fair's animation between frame 1 and 2, so that when Fair's hitbox starts, it starts higher up on the swipe, so his frame 7 hitbox is the old frame 6 hitbox.
Basically I've moved the 'super' problem hitbox down one frame (so that it's the last frame now) and got rid of the fail-safe hitbox. The move keeps four-frames but is basically the original plan.
Download the MotionEtc.pac here, no need to change anything in the Marth.pac (except maybe revert IASA to default if oh so willing): http://www.mediafire.com/?udkda4m2wym
Suddenly getting rid of two-frames of a move (one of them being the KEY frame for anything and everything) is NOT the same compromise. I did not agree to literally SUDDENLY knock off one more frame of the move.
And yes I'm throwing a ****fit because I (and a few others) will have to live with this change for nearly half a year from its release. I don't have a lot of weight in this project but I'll be ****ed if I didn't try.
Veril all you know is that we all agree that Fair needs to be changed. You seem to be turning a blind-eye to the fact that not all of us agree to the change at hand; especially since the "happy compromise" got changed at the last minute.
I don't like the change on the table, and unless Cape and Corey have been distributing the fix to some other 3rd-parties there really hasn't been much feedback on it that came from the people that main Marth. He's removing both frame 7 [original plan] and frame 6 [sudden "unvoted" change], frame 6 being that "all-encompassing" hitbox that is not only one of the main culprits for the camping issue but it's kinda also you know...the most reliable approach option for Marth. No character is going to proactively go for grabs the whole game, or even as his or her main way of getting damage (especially not Marth since he can't JC grab and DC grabs are borderline useless due to his humorously long initial dash).
Before you took a combo tool away from Marth, yeah whine whine, but taking a approach tool away is just mean ROFL. His other two aerials (Nair and Bair) are not viable approach tools, especially not Bair since Brawl programmed it to change directions as one of its first events, so I can't even SHFF it to prevent the turnabout anymore (so every time i wanna approach with Bair i have to add unnecessary frames for turning/RAR). Nair just hits too high up and only works well against tall characters (and I do mean tall) as an approach.
If I take away two frames off the hitbox I can't immediately FF from a shorthop and expect to hit a short opponent. If I delay a bit from my apex and SH then I can get a graze in. If I expect to approach a short opponent that has the brains to probably not be in the air the same moment I am, it's either a predictable delay to SHFF hit them, or approach with SHDF...
No one approaches with SHDF...unless you're like sandbagging or have ridiculously bad habits or something. It just doesn't work, especially not with the severely decreased range of Fair.
The Falco match-up suddenly becomes gayer because my farthest reaching hitbox just doesn't exist anymore. Now instead of having a near-even but difficult match-up, I have to work harder to just approach (and getting the approach does not mean a whole lot in the Brawl games; in Brawl+ you just usually eat more damage at worst). Approaching and approaching successfully mean very little since if you're not in Falco's face and killing him then Falco is essentially "winning" the stage control battle.
And Sheik...yeah let's not talk too much about Sheik. Sheik has even an EASIER time getting into Marth's discomfort zone and intercept with a dash attack and bye-bye Marth. Apply the same situation to MetaKnight.
These are only a few examples of how much more of a gamechanger this change would be over the last one. Yes, 6.0 Rarth requires more strings and pressure traps. But at least he can confidently approach without feeling someone has screwed him over drastically. Oh, so 7.0 Rarth has more real combos? Great! What's the chance of landing them?!
What good does having more combos (and also being able to put the dumb gimmick of double aerials from short-hop) mean if you lose such a reliable approach tool (just so no one misinterprets, Fair doesn't need to be nerfed in its reliability as an approach tool and also it IS THE approach tool for Marth)? the "new" fair is basically the front range of Uair except you can do it twice from a short-hop good ****. We said we were gonna "change it," but that usually means do better, not comparatively worse.
We all agreed to take off frame 7 on the hitbox. This way if Marth is camping then if you can get in under or behind Marth on/after frame 7, he's a sitting duck for a few frames. That's good that we killed off the fail-safe hitbox, but now we wanna one-up the quality of this change so we go ahead and kill the one that's also the outermost horizontal hitbox; just to make sure that camping can never happen again.
That's mighty noble of us, however I'm not keen on a "floatier Roy" either (Roy has a bad approach game in Melee; and his saving grace was his good mobility off of his FF-esque physics [which Marth+ mains hate] and the potency of grabs [overall weakened in Brawl and Brawl+ but now there's more ways to just 'get' the grab], JC grabs, and reactive edgeguarding over Brawl and Brawl+'s proactive system). Yes every time we nerf something integral to Marth I pull a Roy comparison, but it just tells everyone how better off Marth was, and how worse off Roy was. Unfortunately Rarth doesn't quite benefit from "being stuck in the limbo between the two" as so might suggest. It's rather detrimental to him really.
Cape has been away for a while so I haven't been able to ask him any questions but the fix looks to be worse than the laggier Fair. Everyone will more or less appreciate the minor physic changes but it seems no matter how we slice it, we always seem to put on the most radical changes into Marth's Fair, which instead of writing a 5 page essay on it, is basically Marth himself.
Yeah, we don't like one-move-wonders, but it's how he works. Instead of getting rid of this trait through forcible means, tone it down in a way that is more likely to "make everyone happy."
As is, it seems like we're taking the easy way out and manipulating the Marth whiners' poor foresight on the subject and then keep our mouths shut about it until another ****storm comes about. I thought those kinds of politics are gone from the WBR now. Plus I'm sure we don't need another "rebellion" that's actually serious the next time around.
I've added one frame in Fair's animation between frame 1 and 2, so that when Fair's hitbox starts, it starts higher up on the swipe, so his frame 7 hitbox is the old frame 6 hitbox.
Basically I've moved the 'super' problem hitbox down one frame (so that it's the last frame now) and got rid of the fail-safe hitbox. The move keeps four-frames but is basically the original plan.
Download the MotionEtc.pac here, no need to change anything in the Marth.pac (except maybe revert IASA to default if oh so willing): http://www.mediafire.com/?udkda4m2wym
Suddenly getting rid of two-frames of a move (one of them being the KEY frame for anything and everything) is NOT the same compromise. I did not agree to literally SUDDENLY knock off one more frame of the move.
And yes I'm throwing a ****fit because I (and a few others) will have to live with this change for nearly half a year from its release. I don't have a lot of weight in this project but I'll be ****ed if I didn't try.
