Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[TheManaLord]

ntsc it's definitely even

in pal it definitely can go in marths favor

 

[otg]

Are fox's bair, nair and utilt still mad good in Pal?

Then who gives a ****.

 

[Druggedfox]

Ah, no one caught the joke When I said you can't uthrow uair in PAL, I was commenting on the fact that every PAL players seems to be able to smash DI the uair consistently, while here in USA most players can't do it nearly as well.

Beyond that, I really don't see how marth recovers against fox. Lightshield edgehog -->upsmash kills marth at any decently high %, and otherwise you can just bair him back off.

Fox on the other hand can walljump, airdodge, shorten side-b to avoid gimps. He can also tech some of marth's best edgeguarding to avoid getting killed by that. Unless the marth is able to perfectly guess you shortening your side-b, the chances of getting punished are minimal. All in all, fox isn't actually all that easy to edgeguard.

Armada, you didn't mention how much easier it is to kill with fox. Marth might have better combos, but fox only needs to the marth to around 85% before he's in kill % for a waveshine --> upsmash, upthrow combo, dthrow upsmash, jab--> upsmash, anything you want really. Fox doesn't need 0-death combos, he needs 2 or 3 solid 30-40% combos and marth's already in the danger zone. Marth on the other hand can combo all day, but without guaranteed setups into kills, its far more difficult for him. Also, fox has things like dash attack and uptilt to set into guaranteed upsmashes/uairs.

Also, waveshine --> nair with fox can lead into easy strings. If they ever mess up smash DI'ing the shine it can lead to a combo that's better than uthrow-->uair because you can't smash DI out of the hits. People never do this, but if you're fast enough it works like a charm.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

wow ur sig is boring

 

[Armada]

Druggedfox: Yeah but without that range it is really hard for fox to coming inside of Marth.
And if Peach (and she is slow) can edgeguarding fox really good it should not be a problem for Marth.

About the recovery stuff: I never said it was really easy for Marth i just said it is more easy for him if you compare to fox at least at low percent.

 

[Divinokage]

It is sort of stage dependant but.. I kinda agree that Fox has less room for error than Marth.. I mean one simple grab from Marth can lead to devastating garanteed combos and a lot of times death.

 

[Archangel]

Not being biased or anything but Fox doesn't feel like a legit threat at all. Even if I'm down by 3 stocks I always feel like I can beat up on fox whenever I feel like it lol

He is faster and if played perfect with a mix of opportunistic Gimps/Combo's and camping I think he can go even with Marth but it's nearly impossible to be perfect with fox so....to me it's gotta be slight Marth just on room for error alone. As stated already Marth's Range and ability to pretty much kill fox at a whim makes it to difficult to honestly call this match-up 50/50. It's like the Jiggs match-up imo. People call it even almost out of tradition but based on what I see Puff and Marth consistently beat Fox. Even if it's by 1 stock at low % all the time.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Not being biased or anything but Fox doesn't feel like a legit threat at all. Even if I'm down by 3 stocks I always feel like I can beat up on fox whenever I feel like it lol

He is faster and if played perfect with a mix of opportunistic Gimps/Combo's and camping I think he can go even with Marth but it's nearly impossible to be perfect with fox so....to me it's gotta be slight Marth just on room for error alone. As stated already Marth's Range and ability to pretty much kill fox at a whim makes it to difficult to honestly call this match-up 50/50. It's like the Jiggs match-up imo. People call it even almost out of tradition but based on what I see Puff and Marth consistently beat Fox. Even if it's by 1 stock at low % all the time.

why are you down 3 stocks if fox is so easy lol?

imo IF its in somebodies favor it would be fox. but I support even all the way.

 

[PB&J]

fox's speed out ranges marth's range..force marth to f smash..and its a free wave dash oos to grab ..to death..who ever gets the first grab ,should get the stock and they can both gimp each other pretty easily

50/50 in my eyes

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

50-50, then marth stops fsmashing as a spacing tool XD

I've seen arguments to say fox > marth and i've seen arguments for marth > fox. I main both characters. In my opinion it is both of their worst match-ups.

 

[JPOBS]

50-50
In my opinion it is both of their worst match-ups.

i second this sentiment

except sheik is worse for marth, but i know what you're trying to say so...yea.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

50-50, then marth stops fsmashing as a spacing tool XD

I've seen arguments to say fox > marth and i've seen arguments for marth > fox. I main both characters. In my opinion it is both of their worst match-ups.

i second this sentiment

except sheik is worse for marth, but i know what you're trying to say so...yea.

I agree with this. I play both characters and feel like they are very difficult matchups for both of the characters. So it kinda is 50/50

 

[KirbyKaze]

fox's speed out ranges marth's range..force marth to f smash..and its a free wave dash oos to grab ..to death..who ever gets the first grab ,should get the stock and they can both gimp each other pretty easily

50/50 in my eyes

Why is Marth "forced" to F-smash again? Because Fox is faster? I would think that Fox's speed and punishment would make doing a move like F-smash undesirable, in the same manner that makes it unwise to do it frivolously against Falcon and Ice Climbers.

 

[Armada]

fox's speed out ranges marth's range..force marth to f smash..and its a free wave dash oos to grab ..to death..who ever gets the first grab ,should get the stock and they can both gimp each other pretty easily

50/50 in my eyes

Spaming f-smash is not a good strategy

Fox is faster i know but the difference is not THAT big.

People always underestimate chars like Marth.
What i mean with that is chars in the shadow.

Marth>Fox

 

[otg]

Wait... Marths still spam Fsmash?

 

[The Good Doctor]

Wait... Marths still spam Fsmash?

Yeah, you hadn't heard?

 

[otg]

The metagame has clearly regressed

 

[t3h Icy]

Unless you hit a tipper each time.

 

[TheManaLord]

Armada why don't you say what version you're referencing. In PAL you may be right, but the differences really do add up. In NTSC it's strictly even and has been proven and overwhelmingly accepted for a long time.

 

[Fletch]

i think that match ups really stage dependant.

FD marth
YS evenish
DL Fox
FoD Fox
BF marth

Isn't YS in Marth's favor? I think the current neutral system could lend to this matchup being very very slightly in Marth's favor just because he's pretty guaranteed to get a good stage for the matchup for the first game with PS moved to CP.

Obviously I don't know as much as some of these guys but I think the match approaches more even as the players hit the top level; until then, I think Marth has a slight advantage.

 

[Let It Riot]

Spaming f-smash is not a good strategy

Fox is faster i know but the difference is not THAT big.

People always underestimate chars like Marth.
What i mean with that is chars in the shadow.

Marth>Fox

I applaud your rigorous and well thought out arguments in this post.

In the end I think the community will just have to give in to your overwhelming logic on this match up.

Thank you and have a good day.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I could believe Marth > Fox.

...But I could also believe Fox > Marth and Fox = Marth.

The matchup is very close.

Marth doesn't get hits as much as Fox does but his hits can do more damage. Fox disposes of Marth easier though and has better consistency with damage.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

fox has more consistency as a character, and in the end, thats the most important factor

fox > marth

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik has more consistency vs Puff but that one does not favour Sheik.

I agree consistency is amazing but large disparities in punishment should not be ignored.

 

[Archangel]

why are you down 3 stocks if fox is so easy lol?

imo IF its in somebodies favor it would be fox. but I support even all the way.

You never heard the I love melee song have you?

Spaming f-smash is not a good strategy

Fox is faster i know but the difference is not THAT big.

People always underestimate chars like Marth.
What i mean with that is chars in the shadow.

Marth>Fox

This

I could believe Marth > Fox.

...But I could also believe Fox > Marth and Fox = Marth.

The matchup is very close.

Marth doesn't get hits as much as Fox does but his hits can do more damage. Fox disposes of Marth easier though and has better consistency with damage.

Also this

 

[NJzFinest]

I agree. A Fox at "high" damage or at a percent where he isn't "comboable" is the most annoying thing for Marth. Getting off that killing blow is super stressful.

... but this is assuming the Marth isn't able to kill the Fox early enough, so idk lol.

 

[JPOBS]

marth v fox is the most even matchup in the game imo

people opinions generally just stem from their experience getting ***** as either char (or watchign m2k vids on FD)

 

[KAOSTAR]

whats the love of melee d
song?

also why do people keep saying **** is hard/x char gets *****. I think you all need to play more low tiers to keep things in perspective. then youll know what ****/hard MUs are.

I don't see even as being hard.

thats like when the sheik players started *****ing about peach. lmao, a disadvantage and you just fall apart.

 

[JPOBS]

you should see the falcon boards then....

 

[Mahone]

I applaud your rigorous and well thought out arguments in this post.

In the end I think the community will just have to give in to your overwhelming logic on this match up.

Thank you and have a good day.

u mad?

p.s. Armada *****

 

[Let It Riot]

u mad?

p.s. Armada *****

Yea it does annoy me when people post opinions and then don't substantiate it.

I don't care how good he is.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You mean when people post an idea in proper terms but you can't grasp your mind around it, and like any other human, you attack what you don't understand.

I think armada makes a very strong point.

 

[Composeur]

I think he is talking about NTSC in this thread unless he specifies otherwise, but I can't swear to it. He's practiced enough for over a year now to understand the differences quite well.

I understand your frustration, Riot, but be sensitive to Armada trying his best to argue in a language he's not yet fluent in. I personally would ask him to elaborate rather than mocking him. Besides, most of his posts have solid arguments in them.

Armada, what exactly makes Marth a character in the shadows? You mean a character whose popularity overshadowed by more common ones like the spacies and Jiggs?

(edited for clarity)

 

[Let It Riot]

You mean when people post an idea in proper terms but you can't grasp your mind around it, and like any other human, you attack what you don't understand.

I think armada makes a very strong point.

That's implying there is something to decipher, there isn't. There's just a lack of substance that post just contained little to no terms that most people would consider proper, and also didn't contain any ideas that would lead to something except that fox's speed isn't a huge factor. But that again doesn't come to an discernable conclusion of Marth>Fox, in fact just saying that after a string of words that didn't have much to do with it comes off as snobbish. It's like saying I know better than you guys and I don't have to prove it, so just accept it. I don't like that kind of attitude.

While I shouldn't have made a post with that much vitriol in it, your post is no better than mine, in fact it's probably worse.

I apologize to armada but please try and make your posts seem less arrogant.

 

[Divinokage]

I think he is talking about NTSC in this thread unless he specifies otherwise, but I can't swear to it. He's practiced enough for over a year now to understand the differences quite well.

I understand your frustration, Riot, but be sensitive to Armada trying his best to argue in a language he's not yet fluent in. I personally would ask him to elaborate rather than mocking him. Besides, most of his posts have solid arguments in them.

Armada, what exactly makes Marth a character in the shadows? You mean a character whose popularity overshadowed by more common ones like the spacies and Jiggs?

(edited for clarity)

I think it would be saying that there is barely any top level Marth players that can actually destroy everyone with ease like Top Fox/Falco players can. It means Marth is not a character that is used in general which is true, he is much more underused when comparing it to spacies.

Edit: Riot, I don't know who the arrogant one is right now, but it's probably you demanding **** like that. No one is obligated to do anything.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

That's implying there is something to decipher, there isn't. There's just a lack of substance that post just contained little to no terms that most people would consider proper, and also didn't contain any ideas that would lead to something except that fox's speed isn't a huge factor. But that again doesn't come to an discernable conclusion of Marth>Fox, in fact just saying that after a string of words that didn't have much to do with it comes off as snobbish. It's like saying I know better than you guys and I don't have to prove it, so just accept it. I don't like that kind of attitude.

While I shouldn't have made a post with that much vitriol in it, your post is no better than mine, in fact it's probably worse.

I apologize to armada but please try and make your posts seem less arrogant.

I think you're projecting at least a little. If you want to know exactly how armada views the game maybe you should go to europe and pay him for smash lessons. He doesn't have to explain everything out, if he says something correct he doesn't have to prove to random people its correct. Its what KK does all the time, except he follows it up really well

 

[KirbyKaze]

People don't understand that character beats character with move.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think you're projecting at least a little. If you want to know exactly how armada views the game maybe you should go to europe and pay him for smash lessons. He doesn't have to explain everything out, if he says something correct he doesn't have to prove to random people its correct. Its what KK does all the time, except he follows it up really well

lmao your last clause really hurt your argument.

I thought he could have elaborated more but, imo only if he was asked too. he said enough to where somebody knowledgeable could make efforts to follow his argument.

every post doesn't have to be a book, or even fully explained. his post wasn't good, but it wasn't bad. im sure he could explain it if he was asked. it was more than an opinion so im good with it.

let it riot is an *******, or just lacks socal skills. dude is pompous 4 sure.he should have asked for elaboration and also noted armada is not fluent in english.

moral, be kind to one another and demonstrate good discussion skills.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm an ******* but TheIrishMafia assures me I'm the ****ing man.

So **** y'all.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Nah, this isn't discussion. This is some random people posting stuff online with no direction. Moderators don't keep us on discussing. If i asked how armada did at some tournament or started chatting i probably wouldn't even get an infraction. People do that **** all the time. Nobody monitors terminology or requires a certain word count or an amount of elaboration. People troll this area all the time (mostly good players) because 80% of smashers don't even fully understand the game and of those only like 5% are any good XD