Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Let It Riot]

I think it would be saying that there is barely any top level Marth players that can actually destroy everyone with ease like Top Fox/Falco players can. It means Marth is not a character that is used in general which is true, he is much more underused when comparing it to spacies.

Edit: Riot, I don't know who the arrogant one is right now, but it's probably you demanding **** like that. No one is obligated to do anything.

It's arrogant to ask for reasoning behind ideas in a forum?

Fine I won't post on this board anymore.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Opinions are dangerous!

 

[t3h Icy]

Seeing that two of the best Marths are considering retirement and the character isn't popular to begin with, Marth is disappearing. While he's still definitely one of the best characters in the game, he doesn't hold up against other top characters quite as well as before. Marth used to be a Fox/Falco slayer, but both match-ups are much closer since techniques like DI have been discovered and used at higher levels, while Marth hasn't gained much back.

/opinion

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hmm. You seem to have a somewhat thought-out opinion. Let me fix that.

*lobotomizes*

 

[Jimbo Slice]

Nah, this isn't discussion. This is some random people posting stuff online with no direction. Moderators don't keep us on discussing. If i asked how armada did at some tournament or started chatting i probably wouldn't even get an infraction. People do that **** all the time. Nobody monitors terminology or requires a certain word count or an amount of elaboration. People troll this area all the time (mostly good players) because 80% of smashers don't even fully understand the game and of those only like 5% are any good XD

Best post of all time.

The real discussion is in the fawks boards.

In all seriousness, Fox vs Marth is so even it's stupid. Definitely boils down to the stage. It feels kind of like Falcon vs Marth except Fox get's punished harder from earlier percents. The trade off being Fox has a little more flexibility.

 

[KAOSTAR]

It's arrogant to ask for reasoning behind ideas in a forum?

Fine I won't post on this board anymore.

you are obviously more knowledgeable than anyone and we as a community need you to keep us in line. your incredibly accurate analysis of our posts is mind blowingly refreshing.

please stay and bless us with your presence.

 

[Archangel]

I guess Kage has a point. The usage of character and the levels of high playing with Fox and Marth are different in 2010. I mean what is the ratio to of Fox to Marth players in the Melee community 5-1 easily. Probably more like 10-1. Fox and Marth at high levels is pretty close throughout smash-history every time I've seen the best Fox vs the best Marth in a set Marth usually wins. I'd say at least 80% of the time. That's from 2004-present.

 

[NJzFinest]

Yea it does annoy me when people post opinions and then don't substantiate it.

I don't care how good he is.

Try communicating with him in his own language then...

 

[JPOBS]

whats funny is that had a non-pro player made that same post, and Riot made that same response, no one would have said anything.

 

[Mahone]

whats funny is that had a non-pro player made that same post, and Riot made that same response, no one would have said anything.

ya, thats probably true lol, but i think riot wouldn't have made that kind of post if it wasn't a pro he would have just ignored it

 

[Armada]

TheManaLord: This thread is about Ntsc so ofc i am referencing to NTSC.

Let It Riot: Look at page 475 and there can you see i have write a post why i think Marth>Fox
"It's like saying I know better than you guys and I don't have to prove it, so just accept it. I don't like that kind of attitude"

If i have wrote post so you seeing at me like that i will give you a apologize because i am not like that and i never wanna be like that =(.


Composeur: If i am saying like this.
(i am not American but i guess this will be true if that's not i will give you another example)

Compare Marth duing Ken/M2k prime and now.
Thats not that many Marth players anymore.

m2k (Strawhat have quit) is the only top player with Marth.
If i remember right people like Cort/PC (examples) use to play Marths like secondaries but not people playing spacies like seconds (dosen't matter if they are Fox/Falco/Marth players).


That i said at page 475 is why i wanna say Marth have advantage.
I don't know how i will "prove,show" it better.

 

[Archangel]

@Armada Don't apologize to that guy. It's his fault for not reading the god**** thread

Anyway You bring up another point about top level Marths. There is only one highest level Marth player being M2K(whom barely plays ) Then there are a few decent players and thats it. Fox has so many people who play him at a pretty high level. All you have to do is learn to shffl and do 06 dair>shine>repeat to be considered good with Fox. The standard for being a good Marth use to be Spacing tippers and ken combos. Now it requires much more work to be a good top level Marth that most don't bother with it anymore. Even with such disparity Marth players still beat Fox's 80% of the time.

When Im feeling less lazy I'll post examples

 

[Druggedfox]

Idk, marth can be pretty straightforward depending on the stage. This isn't honestly my opinion, but if all you have to do with fox to be considered "good" is apparently shffl dairs and shine 06 style, then I can just as easily say that all you have to do with marth is dashdance until you get a grab. While both are obviously prominent in the character's styles, it is entirely accurate to say that this makes the marth/fox "good".

Though on a note on dashdancing, marths need to do it more. CC grab anything under 40, DI out of foxes dairs into grabs, and dash to the end of your range into a pivot grab which covers half of FD :D :D Proceed to chainthrow 0-80 and edgeguard; hmm, talk about simplification of characters

 

[KirbyKaze]

D-throw --> more d-throw

guess which character i am

 

[#HBC | Mac]

ga non?

 

[JPOBS]

falcon?....

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sheik

Do I win?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

King DeDeDe

 

[rhan]

King DeDeDe

We have a winner!

 

[Archangel]

Either Sheik, DDD, or Falco(brawl)

I'm going with Sheik.

 

[KAOSTAR]

He is definitely a tech chasing m2

 

[Strong Badam]

D-throw --> more d-throw

guess which character i am

You're my *****.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

an inebriated Bowser

 

[Skler]

Inebriated Bowser is broken, he only has advantageous matchups.

 

[Pink Reaper]

D-throw --> more d-throw

guess which character i am

Sheena Fujibayashi?

 

[Blistering Speed]

I've seen arguments to say fox > marth and i've seen arguments for marth > fox. I main both characters. In my opinion it is both of their worst match-ups.

Ignoring Falcon, Sheik and Puff for Marth I guess.

 

[Strong Badam]

Falcon is not Marth's worst match-up. It's not even in Falcon's favor.
Sheik is.

 

[ShadyMilkman]

Falcon is not Marth's worst match-up. It's not even in Falcon's favor.
Sheik is.

Sheik on Falcon is absolute shenanigans. I'm honestly extremely surprised that this one matchup hasn't screwed him out of competitive play more than it has.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm starting to think that it might not be like unwinnable **** if Falcon plays correctly but no Falcons do except maybe like Hax.

Long, avoidable combos bad. Short combo that sets up inescapable edgeguard loop = good.

Still really good for Sheik though.

edit: I heard S2J is like okay at it too except he can't edgeguard consistently at all.

 

[painlord k11]

shiek is obviously marths worst match up and if your a marth main u could always switch to shiek to fight falcon and ganon w/e your comfortable with.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Falcon is not Marth's worst match-up. It's not even in Falcon's favor.
Sheik is.

No duh, they weren't in a particular order. Falcon vs Marth is stage dependant ****, Sheik vs Marth is always ****.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Puff >> Peach

Make it happen

*snaps fingers*

Bair is too powerful.

 

[shehehe11]

is pikachu really low tier anymore?

axe was really impressive at apex and i don't think all of pika's matchups are as bad as they're said to be

of course, this statement has no reasoning behind it... just a thought

 

[Merkuri]

I'd say Pikachu is mid-tier. He has impressive combos and edge guarding/gimp.s Also Upsmash to thunder is just too ****.

 

[Archangel]

There are alot of Character that should be rated higher but people are to lazy/intimidated to explore them. I put Pika at bottom of High on some random list I made and people laughed. Nobody laughed at my boi Axe though. I was starting to regret not driving up for Day 3. Then I saw Finals and was glad I didn't. I might have stabbed someone.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

spam_arrows was really acting like a scrub ******* on the stream

therefore his statements hold no value in them

get at my logic

pika is mid tier at best though

 

[Druggedfox]

@KK, Hbox just proved why puff>>peach =D

Do any apex results call for any particular reworkings of the matchups?

 

[Archangel]

spam_arrows was really acting like a scrub ******* on the stream

therefore his statements hold no value in them

get at my logic

pika is mid tier at best though

For the record I wasn't acting like a scrub. I am a scrub. No acting involved.

Second of all Pika is Mid-tier based on AXE results alone Look at the past year of results if u don't believe me.

@KK, Hbox just proved why puff>>peach =D

Do any apex results call for any particular reworkings of the matchups?

Talk to AXE

 

[Merkuri]

I', starting to think Pikachu vs Spacies isn't that bad. Pikachu is so good at getting them off the stage and gimping them, he can chain grab them combo the **** out of them and he can even keep up with fox's speed and run circles around Falco.

I think it should be
Fox > Pikachu
Falco > Pikachu

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

then peach should be top tier then

you guys are overestimating Pikachu's abilities

everyone can gimp spaces if they're as good as predicting their recoveries as AXE is.

almost everyone can chaingrab spacies too but the problem is how in the world to get that grab. AXE is just really good at getting grabs, but that doesn't change the fact that Pikachu's grab range is the smallest in the game.