Pit
Go ^_^
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Everyone assumed Pit was ridiculously good and top tier when they first got their hands on Brawl, but he really isn't. He's definitely above average, but he's not as spectacular as everyone initially thought, and it's not easy to win with him at all (at least not against skilled players). I don't really know of any tourney winning Pits actually...But wow I just realized now that I never played Pit's as much as I thought I would. I mean he was really popular in the beginning but now.... I guess I just live in a Pit deprived area.
The statues in castle seige also prevent Pit from abusing projectiles at all. So thats another plus. Frigate may also be a good counterpick?ya, yoshi's story and also castle siege.
Missing that dolphin slash = you get *****. It doesn't hit until frame 5 and shields come out in 2 frames. Do the math.What safer KO option than dolphin slash out of shield? Also Pit has 0 safe KO options against Marth. In order to even get the KO, he has to get within sword range. That alone is unsafe.
Yes, because there are a lot of good Pit players to judge this off of and we really understand what Pit is capable of.Pit is not at an advantage. He is at a disadvantage.
lol, they don't kill at the same range. Pit's b-air will kill Marth at under 100% unless it's at the middle of FD or something extreme like that. Pit's undimished f-smash almost does the same. Unless Marth gets tippers, Pit will be living to higher percents constantly.Marth is faster, has more range on his attacks, they kill about the same range (unless Marth gets a tip), better shield pressure, and much better punishment.
Wrong.Pit is heavier, has a better recovery, and has reflectors. The reflectors are not actually used to reflect anything in this match, as Marth has 0 projectiles.
Arrows work in the air.Pit is completely outranged by Marth in the air. He has 0 moves that outrange Marth there.
-The moves Marth has that outrange Pit on the ground have too much recovery time to be spammed besides d-tilt.On the ground the only thing that outranges Marth is the arrows. Once close enough, arrows are no longer a viable option, and Pit is very susceptible to Marth's spacing game.
Pit's don't approach. Marth can't force Pit to approach because Pit has arrows.Marth can simply stand out of Pit's reach, and use zoning moves like dtilt or ftilt, and then punish mistakes with dancing blade. Pit's only response to this is to change the spacing (either get out of Marth's range and continue arrows spam, or get inside of Marth's range). Getting inside Marth's range will prove difficult, even if both players are equally skilled, Marth simply has the tools to keep Pit out. Not to mention any shield pressure attempts on Marth are practically meaningless due to dolphin slash. Running away to arrow spam is the other choice, and Marth can just chase Pit down again.
Pit's answer to Marth getting near him: Run away and shoot more arrows.Basically once Marth is done with the rushdown and has gotten to his ideal spacing, Pit is hard pressed to do anything, whereas Marth has a plethora of options.
55/45 Pit.This matchup is definitely in Marth's favor, 60/40 at least.
Of course, however DS OoS is only to be used when your opponent is in a vulnerable position and cannot shield.Missing that dolphin slash = you get *****. It doesn't hit until frame 5 and shields come out in 2 frames. Do the math.
Why would Pit be approaching in this match anyway? Even then, if someone was to approach Marth he can keep them out and basically camp them with his sword, depending on the character.It's not unsafe to approach Marth, otherwise he'd be S tier instead of A tier. Marth has many unsafe moves that he must use to get kills, and that is when Pit can punish with a KO move.
Match Ups are determined by two top level players of equal skill, we are taking in all of both characters options and seeing what would happen on paper.Yes, because there are a lot of good Pit players to judge this off of and we really understand what Pit is capable of.
Oh, wait, there are none.
The edge of FD >_>lol, they don't kill at the same range. Pit's b-air will kill Marth at under 100% unless it's at the middle of FD or something extreme like that. Pit's undimished f-smash almost does the same. Unless Marth gets tippers, Pit will be living to higher percents constantly.
Easily punished by up b OoS.Pit's shield pressure is better.
-N-air on the top of a shield ***** shields and is nearly unpunishable if you land to u-tilt, which at that point is a guaranteed shieldstab
Umm, ok? Marth can control platforms just as well if not better.-U-air through a platform ***** shields
Well yeah, but what happens once Marth gets too close for Pit to spam arrows?-ARROWS are safe on block because you should be at a distance when using them
And why not mention dtilt? Marth's 1st or second safest move on block?-Pit's f-smash can hit Marth just out of range of f-b, u-b, and jab, and it doesn't have enough recovery time to punish with f-smash or f-tilt.
Up b OoS either way.-Pit's f-air on the top of people's shields is less punishable than Marth's because he is floatier and can jump away after the move better.
By your logic, Marth can do the same exact thing and completely shut down Pit with his counter.Wrong.
If Marth does <insert anything>, especially his laggy smashes, Pit can use d-b to reverse it and then **** Marth. Marth can't even fight that well up close where he supposedly has this huge advantage if Pit players just used d-b properly.
Marth's invincible u-b? Doesn't matter. D-b will reflect Marth and gimp him. Pit can effortlessly edgeguard Marth.
It's not even that, it's Marth's pure zoning alone that makes Pit almost helpless unless he runs away, and with Marth's speed he should be able to keep the distance close.-The moves Marth has that outrange Pit on the ground have too much recovery time to be spammed besides d-tilt.
With crap range.-Pit's smashes both come out faster and have less recovery time than Marth's, making them far more usable overall.
Like I said, if that is what is going to happen why can't Marth just use counter and do the same thing? His down b won't have a huge impact in this match, if at all.-Once Marth gets close, pressing d-b reverses whatever he does, which is going to have enough recovery time to punish.
Because it's impossible to avoid and see this coming amirite? >_>Pit's don't approach. Marth can't force Pit to approach because Pit has arrows.
Pit has glide attack, which is huge and has high priority, so he can actually just glide at Marth and beat any of his moves a lot.
You make it sound like getting past these arrows is near impossible. SHAD, simply jumping around, perfect shield approach, rolling, etc.Getting inside Marth's range is much easier than the other way around. Marth has to work around a projectile and then not get hit by Pit's plethora of 4 or less frame moves that have an underestimated amount of range. Pit has to deal with fast moves with decent range, but he's not working around a projectile. Pit can just randomly f-b at Marth sometimes and it works.
Absolutely, how else can Pit win this match? Marth's speed however can make it so Pit can't get too far away and once he can reset his zoning Pit is once again in a tight spot with not much to do.Pit's answer to Marth getting near him: Run away and shoot more arrows.
Then the cycle repeats, with Marth being put in the worse situation constantly.
Oh come on, you play Marth.. right?Every character has trouble dealing with arrow spam, roll/dodge/jump when the person comes near you, <insert random super fast and hard to punish move>, repeat. Marth has extra trouble because his larger moves have lots of recovery time and he has projectile to spam back at Pit.
65:35 Marth.55/45 Pit.
By this way of thinking why doesn't Falco destroy Marth? That match is already 60:40 Marth and Falco boards agree.Extremely campy character in a very campy game > character that has to attack to win.
Like Steel2nd said, I'll only be using it out of shield when you are attacking my shield. Thus you will have 0 time to shield because you'll be in some type of attack animation. Of course Dolphin Slash is ******** if your opponent can shield. Only use it as a punishment.Missing that dolphin slash = you get *****. It doesn't hit until frame 5 and shields come out in 2 frames. Do the math.
If you are approaching Marth, he isn't going to be spamming kill moves. You will not be able to punish him. Again, like Steel2nd said, Marth is the one doing the approaching in this match. If Pit tries it he's giving up his biggest advantage.It's not unsafe to approach Marth, otherwise he'd be S tier instead of A tier. Marth has many unsafe moves that he must use to get kills, and that is when Pit can punish with a KO move.
I understand what Pit is capable of by understanding the mechanics of gameplay - the physics engine, Pit's moves, hitboxes, and while not very accurate, a rough idea of how quick or slow his moves are (not as good as frame data I suppose). The number of people maining Pit has NOTHING to do with these things. Pit is a preconstructed character, you can't say he will get better when someone else uses him. We can already see what he is capable of.Yes, because there are a lot of good Pit players to judge this off of and we really understand what Pit is capable of.
Oh, wait, there are none.
How are you going to land a bair? Marth outranges Pit's bair with his fair and bair, by a significant amount. Fsmash? You're only going to land that as a punishment, because yet again you won't be able to get close enough in for Fsmash to hit Marth. Honestly, Pit has a couple stronger killing moves, but in this matchup, they are less safe than Marth's. Also Marth has gimps in this matchup, and can kill with a tipper fair or bair quite easily.lol, they don't kill at the same range. Pit's b-air will kill Marth at under 100% unless it's at the middle of FD or something extreme like that. Pit's undimished f-smash almost does the same. Unless Marth gets tippers, Pit will be living to higher percents constantly.
Wow. Marth has one of the best shield pressure games there is. Pit doesn't beat him at it. DB >>>> spotdodge. Shieldbreaker >>>> Shields. Poking out of range = 0 shieldgrabs. Also it's almost impossible to pressure Marth's shield, as he can just dolphin slash out of shield. All the options you named are SHUT DOWN by dolphin slash.Pit's shield pressure is better.
-N-air on the top of a shield ***** shields and is nearly unpunishable if you land to u-tilt, which at that point is a guaranteed shieldstab
-U-air through a platform ***** shields
-ARROWS are safe on block because you should be at a distance when using them
-Pit's f-smash can hit Marth just out of range of f-b, u-b, and jab, and it doesn't have enough recovery time to punish with f-smash or f-tilt.
-Pit's f-air on the top of people's shields is less punishable than Marth's because he is floatier and can jump away after the move better.
If Marth is throwing out a smash when Pit is not in lag frames from a previous attack, you are playing a Marth who has made a very poor choice. Marth uses his smashes as PUNISHMENT moves after the opponent has thrown out a laggy attack. Okay, say you down b a dtilt. Marth is turned around. Wow. Big deal, Marth can turn around before Pit can do anything, thanks to his dtilts IASA frames. Punish that.Wrong.
If Marth does <insert anything>, especially his laggy smashes, Pit can use d-b to reverse it and then **** Marth. Marth can't even fight that well up close where he supposedly has this huge advantage if Pit players just used d-b properly.
I'm not sure about the logistics of this, but if you're on the stage and you use your down b, and I am sweetspotting the edge with my up b, I don't see how I'm going to be gimped. If you drop off the stage to use down b against me, then you're asking for me to wait until you release down b, at which point I will Dolphin Slash, stage spiking you.Marth's invincible u-b? Doesn't matter. D-b will reflect Marth and gimp him. Pit can effortlessly edgeguard Marth.
Yeah, okay, but Marth has no reason to take to the air to attack Pit if he's out of range. I mean in terms of close up spacing, you will not be able to hit Marth with an aerial if he spaces properly, because all your aerials are outranged by a significant amount.Arrows work in the air.
dtilt is spammable. ftilt cannot be punished if spaced properly. Shieldbreaker as a mixup - but yes it does have considerable lag time. You better hope you chose to spotdodge instead of shield though.-The moves Marth has that outrange Pit on the ground have too much recovery time to be spammed besides d-tilt.
-Pit's smashes both come out faster and have less recovery time than Marth's, making them far more usable overall.
-Once Marth gets close, pressing d-b reverses whatever he does, which is going to have enough recovery time to punish.
Agreed. Marth will be approaching Pit. Once he finishes approaching and remains outside of Pit's range, Pit will be hard pressed to land a hit on him, unless he goes further away from Marth (to use arrows), or GET INSIDE OF MARTH's range, which is going to be difficult to do if Marth isn't throwing out laggy attacks.Pit's don't approach. Marth can't force Pit to approach because Pit has arrows.
If you're attacking me from the front with glide attack, I'll ftilt. If you're attacking me from above with it, I'll utilt. If you're too close and I can't outrange you, I'll shield to dolphin smash. Pit's glide attack is a good move, but a grounded Marth has many options against it. In the air, there's always counter or airdodge.Pit has glide attack, which is huge and has high priority, so he can actually just glide at Marth and beat any of his moves a lot.
Marth is one of the best characters at running up and past projectiles. Simply run, and then use a combination of powershields, spotdodges and SH air dodges to avoid the spam until you're in range. Okay, your moves are fast. But what if I stop running away once I'm in dtilt range? You won't hit me. Yes, Pit's moves have decent range. You may say I am underestimating the range, but the fact remains that Marth does outrange him and with a good spacing game, they will whiff the air in front of Marth. Fb is just going to get shield -> dolphin slashed.Getting inside Marth's range is much easier than the other way around. Marth has to work around a projectile and then not get hit by Pit's plethora of 4 or less frame moves that have an underestimated amount of range. Pit has to deal with fast moves with decent range, but he's not working around a projectile. Pit can just randomly f-b at Marth sometimes and it works.
Getting near him, when you're outranged? I don't think so.Pit's answer to Marth getting near him: Run away and shoot more arrows.
Then the cycle repeats, with Marth being put in the worse situation constantly.
Okay, so I'll get close to you, and you'll roll, dodge or jump, when I haven't activate a move. You're asking to be punished. Okay, you're using a quick move.. wait, I'm standing out of range.. sorry. Marth is not going to be throwing out laggy moves when he's rushing you down. His Fsmash and Dsmash are used for PUNISHING, for the last time. He will not approach you with these. His long ranged moves like dtilt and ftilt don't have enough cooldown to be punished, especially since they outrange Pit.Every character has trouble dealing with arrow spam, roll/dodge/jump when the person comes near you, <insert random super fast and hard to punish move>, repeat. Marth has extra trouble because his larger moves have lots of recovery time and he has projectile to spam back at Pit.
Yet MK, the character that is always forced to approach, is the best character in the game. I don't see your logic here55/45 Pit.
Extremely campy character in a very campy game > character that has to attack to win.