Match up Export #14: Donkey Kong |Complete!!!

[crifer]

yoshis.
brinstar can work for fox, too, because fox can pressure the hell out of DK, but DK can easily pressure fox and kill him, too.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

crifer, brinstar usually works out since he can't camp much at all, and the stage hitboxes mess with his utilt combos

 

[crifer]

bigfoot, you would say fox should ban brinstar over yoshi´s?
I only know that brinstar is one of the few stages, that gives fox no room to camp, but never the less is good.

 

[C.R.Z]

i love this matchup, i always have a huge grin on my face when im playing DK

 

[marmitonkiller]

I dont think that mu is that bad for DK its more like 55 45. DK can kill fox at like 35 with a 9wind and dk can gimp fox pretty easily too

 

[Zhamy]

I dont think that mu is that bad for DK its more like 55 45. DK can kill fox at like 35 with a 9wind and dk can gimp fox pretty easily too

****. I'm going to get hit by a fully charged Donkey Punch every time I get to 35%. 100-0 DK.

 

[marmitonkiller]

****. I'm going to get hit by a fully charged Donkey Punch every time I get to 35%. 100-0 DK.

ur not gonna get hit everytime u are at 35 but the punch is not a bad move, you can easily get hit by a punch in a game and lose a stock at low % and BTW its not the fully charged punch its the 9wind that can kill fox at 35%...

 

[Conviction]

No....I'm sorry but when you play foxes that know how to use that anlog stick it's not happening. It's like saying we are gonna hit you with a Firefox. Fox can gimp DK with Dair only....

 

[Zhamy]

ur not gonna get hit everytime u are at 35 but the punch is not a bad move, you can easily get hit by a punch in a game and lose a stock at low % and BTW its not the fully charged punch its the 9wind that can kill fox at 35%...

no but omg dude you don't know that shine can kill dk at 0% every time so it's 100-0 fox

 

[C.R.Z]

i wouldnt even consider DK's punch. yes its an option DK has against fox but it will very rarely hit, if at all. fox has so much over DK in this match up in terms of raking up damage. its also alot harder for DK to hit fox let alone keep up with his speed. fox 's strings also become alot easier to do on DK, dair for example has alot higher chance of stunning since hes a big target and hes very easier to grab.i really dont see this match up in DK's favour, especially after the fact ive played a pro DK alot.

its like playing with fire i guess, its fun and you can get burned but a good/smart player wont have much trouble.

 

[Adamated]

Umm and just to add to the conversation a little more Here's a wifi match that i played against TeJay who is a very good DK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xk1TdBiIhw .

Please keep in mind that this is a wifi match and isnt pro level by any means but it's mainly for learning purposes. But if you want the real meat of the video you need to pay attention to 1:50 - 2:00 and you'll see what i mean. Also early on in the vid it shows how pretty much all of foxes tilts clash with DK's smashes. So thats just something to keep in mind that even though we have a speed advantage we dont have to rely on it.

Personally, I feel this is a 60:40 MU maybe even 65:35 but i doubt that.

Stages:
Fox Ban's: Japes, pipes, Pictochat or if they are all banned then I'd probably ban Delfino.

Fox CP's: Halberd [lol], or if they've banned it I'd say (corneria) or more likely FD cuz of lazer campage and its easy to keep DK in the air like in the Video.

 

[Exceladon City]

Actually Bigfoot, BF would be an bad stage for DK to fight Fox. Platforms make sharking mad easy and since DK's shield is pretty garbs shieldpoking would be a cakewalk.

I <3 Fox v DK. Mad combos.

Delfino isn't a bad stage to take DK. It provides ample coverage for camping on several of the transitions. Not to mention the walls for shine locks. Personally I'd CP DK to Norfair.

 

[Adamated]

I dunno, delfino has a bunch of dtilt lock places for dk which are much more effective than shine's. Norfair imo isnt really good for either. Small platforms make groundpounding amazing. The multi level also hurts foxes air game. And close blast zones makes cargo throwing a nuiscence ( i cant spell). So i'd say no to norfair.

 

[Exceladon City]

I dunno, delfino has a bunch of dtilt lock places for dk which are much more effective than shine's. Norfair imo isnt really good for either. Small platforms make groundpounding amazing. The multi level also hurts foxes air game. And close blast zones makes cargo throwing a nuiscence ( i cant spell). So i'd say no to norfair.

Fox's air game improves like crazy. You can safely retreat aerials and you camp so much harder there. Shorter blastzones make Dsmash a bag of rapesauce. Why would you get grabbed by DK on Norfair EVER?!?!?! You'll be too busy with hit and runs for him to get ahold of you. As a matter of fact, why would you even be on the same platform as DK outside of KO'ing him?

 

[Ragnar0k]

I don't recommend cp'ing norfair against dk.

 

[Conviction]

^ Me neither actually.

 

[Purple]

DK's i've played tend to like norfair. :/ Easy kills off the side, no worries for being gimped, forward smashes being prolonged due to the middle bubbles.

 

[Adamated]

DK's i've played tend to like norfair. :/ Easy kills off the side, no worries for being gimped, forward smashes being prolonged due to the middle bubbles. Brinstar you mean?

@Oreo. All Dk would really need to do (tentatively of course) is stay on the bottom platform and camp with utilts and force an upwards approach, which means baiting dairs and having a platform above him for cover and only being open to attack from one side. Obviously the Lava comes into play and limits this play style but for 60% of the match DK has a pretty good strategy. Also if you ever played as DK competitively you would realize how much Dk owns with platforms if the opponent doesnt have a downward penetrating attack (ex. G&W Key). I do understand your points but I do want to stress that platforms are not a win all maneuver and camping on a stage that really has no main stage is not going to be very effective when there is really no flat surface for fox to run and laser camp on. And then the easy recovery like the others said n stuff.

 

[Conviction]

The slanted part of that stage allow us to make moves like SH Dair or Nair AC Adamated.

 

[Exceladon City]

Maybe its because I'm good with Norfair. But explain this, what happens if Fox gets to the bottom platform first? You said DK would own it is he got there, but you never looked at it from Fox's point of view.

Think outside of the box here.

If there is no damage substained and DK decides "Hey open season on the bottom platform!" there are 2 sides open that he can't reach, which leaves Fox open for ledgedrop lasers. This isn't theorycrafting either. This can be done which would force DK to move from his little perch.

 

[Ragnar0k]

DK's up b is soooo good on norfair. You don't even know.

 

[Conviction]

OK, people are confusing me one moment we were talking about Brinstar ( I think) now we are talking Norfair.

Also, Foxes rising fair is so good on this stage and I have to agree with Excel this stage is great for Fox.

Watch this and think about what Fox can do on Norfair -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AVIjWu_2No

 

[C.R.Z]

@Oreo. All Dk would really need to do (tentatively of course) is stay on the bottom platform and camp with utilts and force an upwards approach, which means baiting dairs and having a platform above him for cover and only being open to attack from one side. Obviously the Lava comes into play and limits this play style but for 60% of the match DK has a pretty good strategy. Also if you ever played as DK competitively you would realize how much Dk owns with platforms if the opponent doesnt have a downward penetrating attack (ex. G&W Key). I do understand your points but I do want to stress that platforms are not a win all maneuver and camping on a stage that really has no main stage is not going to be very effective when there is really no flat surface for fox to run and laser camp on. And then the easy recovery like the others said n stuff.

in this situation even if we didnt camp you, we still have nair into JJC which will lead into a combo and you wont beable to shield grab us.

 

[Adamated]

Well Those are all good points but a heavily platformed stage isnt going to help fox with 1) camping because you have to be on an equal leveled platform which dk can avoid if he stays below you specifically on the bottom level, 2) It limits fox's speed. Now dont get me wrong, fox can still be quick like uzi showed us in the vid but not having a solid stage to run on limits fox's ability to place himself on the stage.

I'm not saying that this is a bad stage for fox by any means, i just feel that its a better stage for DK. Considering that 1) its harder to gimp him with shines or whatever because of all the ledges to grab onto 2) smaller platforms to have closer combat on (which is something that DK is good at) 3) low platforms that DK can attack through while standing on the platform below (utilt, usmash, dsmash) and 4) the fact that fox WILL HAVE TO BE IN THE AIR leaves him open for many many uairs from dk which just seems to own. [edit] also DK's ground pound attacks below the platform too.

Now its not a win all, fox has some Good things goin for him. Like nair crossups and JJC. Also if Fox manages to get under DK in the air its pretty much an extra 50% damage. Fair to falling uair is amazing and can kill decently early. Also as a situational tactic fox's usmash will connect from under the platform if DK is crouched (not likely) or if he is landing (a lil more likely). But even from the top usmash doesnt kill till 96 w/ good DI from the top platform (just something to keep in mind about DK) [also utilt can connect in the same manner but the placing has to be perfect]. And Uair ***** too :]

So yeah, I can see the argument but i feel that DK would have the upper hand here. But it would still be a risky counterpick for both imo.

 

[C.R.Z]

id say dk should go castle seige before this place for sure

 

[crifer]

1) DK should pick JJ, if legal. If he does not than pick delfino or YI
2) nair into jjc is really wokring if the nair hits the shield? I´m not quite sure about that
3) you have to remind yourselfs that we have except in the air, to every approach a good counter, Fox has to outplay the DK. ALso DK has pretty much safe approaches with bair, upB or ftilt.

 

[Conviction]

Wait what? ^

Response to 2: Yea it actually does work.
Response to 3: What???? I read you frame data and ftilt ending lag is not so pretty, up b with frame data a while back wouldn't be a good idea to approach with sooo yea, you can counter IA nairs? AC'd Bairs? AC'd Fairs? Sliding Pivot Grabs? Bair is the only safe thing you have.....even then we can OoS Usmash. DK has to outplay the Fox.

 

[Adamated]

I agree with xiblisx. This matchup is heavily favored to fox. Now it's not unwinnable for DK but theres no doubt about it that fox has it easier here. So DK has to outplay fox.

 

[crifer]

Wait what? ^

Response to 2: Yea it actually does work.
Response to 3: What???? I read you frame data and ftilt ending lag is not so pretty, up b with frame data a while back wouldn't be a good idea to approach with sooo yea, you can counter IA nairs? AC'd Bairs? AC'd Fairs? Sliding Pivot Grabs? Bair is the only safe thing you have.....even then we can OoS Usmash. DK has to outplay the Fox.

to 3: sorry but the main problem the most DK´s do is trying to stay in their shield and punish stuff oos. bair beats nair, bair, fair (ok that can work somehow in my experience), pivot grabs can be beaten. ok ftilt should not be spammed, bc it is punishable.
If Fox only shielded one attack like bair, upBs gonna poke your sheild.

Don´t understand me wrong, I think the MU is in Fox favor (I really enjoy playing fox against DK), but it seems to me that no one is trying to see that DK can give fox hard problems.

 

[Conviction]

Ohhhh ok, DK can give Fox problems, but Fox gives DK more problems then DK does to him.

I still don't think he can punish IA nairs or Sliding Pivot grabs but ok.

 

[Ragnar0k]

what are IA nairs? If they're instant aerial then we could just shield grab them or super armor them with a punch or up b.

 

[Conviction]

Yea it's instant aerials but they are Full Jumped not SH'd.

It was the first safe on shield move we found for Fox.

 

[crifer]

Yea it's instant aerials but they are Full Jumped not SH'd.

It was the first safe on shield move we found for Fox.

that´s what I meant. A good DK or at least someone who knows the mu will not hide in his (surely crappy) shield. The DK should not wait for the nair, he should just beat it or run/jump away.

 

[Conviction]

Sooo are all the stages up there good or do people have complaints about certain ones?

Reconmendations?

 

[Ragnar0k]

FJ instant aerial nair? lol there's no way that's safe on shield. I could just uair or usmash out of shield and bye bye fox.

 

[Conviction]

Ummm no....there's spacing you need to factor in and the fact we can DI back while going up. Our Nair is not rangeless like Wario's.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Ok maybe...

 

[Rizk18]

55-45,im pretty sure cable is good atthi MU,recently i found that dk can be a little hassle if ur not pl;aying careful,if hes approaching with bair stay on the ground and or autocanel uair or use usmash,lasers to camp(obv) bair works good here,55-45 fox

 

[Heartstring]

one thing, dk is the onyl character who u-smash can hit even if hes on the floor, jsut want to throw that out there

 

[KillerJawz]

one thing, dk is the onyl character who u-smash can hit even if hes on the floor, jsut want to throw that out there

I assume you mean, "if DK Usmashes, his will hit characters even if they are grounded". This isn't true. Fox, Samus, ZSS, Yoshi, Ganon etc all have usmashes like that.

Unless I misunderstood what you was saying, but I couldn't really understand it tbh.