Match-up Export #K: Kirby | "Summoning Snowballs"

[Fuujin]

 

[Chuee]

LOL
JoWii just stop lmao.
You're doing a terribad job of trolling.

 

[RPK]

His D-tilt has 5 frames of lag, and 3 frames of start up...Thats about 8 frames of which you can't do anything. Which is enough for you to get hit with a dash attack, or a grab. ****, we can even get Snake after he F-tilts, and you see how far that goes/pushes people back? Damn, we can even Upsmash it. Even when MK D-Smashes, we can hit that and D-tilt seems to be about the same speed, maybe a bit faster by 2 frames at most.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Lawl, the worst thing is, I ain't even trolling.

You on the other hand are a Lucas main according to SWF, in a FOX/KIRBY MU discussion, saying absolutely nothing worthwhile. I think that's textbook def. of a troll?

YO FUUJIN; GET ME A 'I AINT EVEN MAD' PIC UP IN HERR!

@RPK- Well then I suppose w/ that info, DTilt sounds completely terrible. TBH, if you're willing to read what I have to say, I'll reiterate what I've been saying this whole time.

It's not an end all, be all.

I've laid out multiple times what Kirby can do better than, or just as good as, Fox along with a few things Kirby can do that Fox can't.

Once again, it's not an end all, be all post. I say, with my informative Kirby opinion, that I believe DTilt, UTilt, and crouch to be good Fox counters. None of you have refuted anything I've said so I'll continue to flame, posts and visit this thread until someone comes in with something worthwhile enough to read.

MU discussions aren't about what move counters what move, and what tactic counters what tactic unless said tactic is a centralized theme of the MU in question. If you guys are mad that I say crouch wrecks Fox's ****, then ***** about it. WAAAAH, idgaf. If you wanna diiscuss this, I'll be here FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER; and if ppl continue to post ******** ****, I'll take this to the FoxGD. Because I love MU discussions.

 

[Fuujin]

 

[Conviction]

So how about that Fox vs. Kirby MU

 

[Sage JoWii]

Iblis, if you're going to WHOBO, I'll show you

 

[Conviction]

Sounds really fun but I don't think you would want to play some one who hasn't touched a video game in 3 months :-/ but I know Trump is going so just MM him.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Who is Trump?

 

[Tiersie]

My god I love how you think you can punish 5 frames of cooldown by running in and grabbing.

Your grab alone is slower.

Geez guys you're making it seem like it's a prerequisite for a fox main to have dropped out of elementary school. Not to mention the quota of banging your head against a wall at least 2 times a day.
Ohwell, guess it sucks to be a fox.

 

[Chuee]

JoWii, I stopped reading your posts when you said Kirby's dtilt was as good as MKs lmao

 

[Rizk18]

Kirby isn't even that hard. At best it's 55-45 Kirby, I don't really care about MU anymore, I just play the game and to me, Kirby isn't that hard to deal with. 50-50.

 

[Asdioh]

Well if you'd get your head out your ***, maybe your hearing wouldn't be clouded with ****.

Protip: Kirby has this move called shield. Oh wait, EVERYONE DOES

So does

Spoiler

Fox.

JoWii, I stopped reading your posts when you said Kirby's dtilt was as good as MKs lmao

lulz. The only thing that makes it nearly as good is the fact that Kirby crouches the lowest of any character, and even lower during dtilt.

Still think this matchup is close to even, maybe roughly 55-45 Kirby (or maybe +1 Kirby, as the wonderful new matchup chart puts it)


How to beat Kirby dtilting: run up, powershield, grab? Wow that was hard \(o_o)/

How to beat Kirby uptilting: I don't know. Does Fox's Dair beat it? Nair?
Or once again, powershield and grab. Or smash.

 

[Kuares]

So I actually checked Kirby's Downtilt, and it beats all of Fox's ground attacks solidly, that and it has way more range than any of Fox's ground moves. Sometimes Fox's Dsmash beat the red feet, everything else clanked.

Fox can grab a crouching Kirby(I think everyone can actually.).

 

[RPK]

Thats why you dash attack it or boost grab it during the small cool down frames :V

 

[Zhamy]

This jowii guy is so mad.

It's way too easy to troll people that are bad at the game.

Anyway, Dtilt is laughable and incredibly punishable. Ftilt punishes on whiff and outspaces, dash powershield grab, short hop crossup bair (TKD style) lands you inside range for your ******** jab, etc. etc.

It's a ****ty move except for the fact that Kirby is really low to the ground, like Assdioh said.


Utilt is harder to deal with because of how Fox's approach is rather linear, but you can beat it with short hop Bair and some other **** I don't remember because this game sucks and I don't play it anymore. It's still slight Kirby advantage, it's still the same thing as we've talked about five million times before.

This matchup hasn't changed since last year; why does this wojii guy think he knows the magical secret to beating Fox? You can tell he's bad because as people keep making fun of him for being ********, he backs off of his position. He's gone from "YAWN this beats Fox so Kirby wins this hard" to "Well you know I didn't say that these tactics that Jenkin's sister could even beat make sure that Kirby wins the matchup, I'm just saying they're good Fox counters!" He's like every other kid that gets trashed in matchup discussion because they're bad, and I will laugh so hard if he actually sticks to his idiocy. He's like "herp derp i love mu discussions!" Yeah, they're great when the people who are talking are knowledgable, otherwise they just display the enormous stupidity that is somehow possible for people to have.

This kid so mad.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Wow Zhamy, you pegged me so hard. I give up. U rite. Fox beats Kirby +3. If Fox does.........well idk but Zhamy does, then he'll destroy Kirby and there's nothing we can do about it.

Fine.

Fox gets his **** wrecked so hard by crouch. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BEATS CROUCH. NOTHING. ****ING NOTHING. Why do you guys bother playing this MU? It's unwinnable. We crouch and there's absolutely NO COUNTER. NONE. THIS IS END ALL, BE ALL. IF KIRBY CROUCHES YOU CAN DO NOTHING. Because we'll just bair and roll and dtilt and util and inhale and there's no approach Fox has that beats a crouched Kirby.

Btw, Zhamy is probably the stupidest person in existence. He says stuff like 'flame example1' and 'badTrollcoveringStupidity2'; it's pathetic. I've heard him say one good thing this whole entire time but he used the wrong context. Yes, it's easy to troll people who are bad at this game; which is exactly why he's so salty and mad. He be troll'd and he be mad, and idgaf, I be happy, cuz I ain't even mad.

It's just shameful when people are like 'LAOLWLLOLOL IM TROLLING ANDDD FLAMING' in order to cover up an embarassing post. If you're stupid and post something stupid, it's never too late to edit your posts and shut up. Walk away and quit looking so stupid. You make humanity look bad. Not just any one race, gender or creed; HUMANITY.

See, I can flame too. Ain't even hard. Requires as much skill as being a Fox main in NorCal. NONE AT ****ING ALL.

 

[RPK]

Say that to Trevonte ._.

 

[Sage JoWii]

If Trolling was srs business, I suppose I would.

 

[Conviction]

Both of you are mad

 

[Sage JoWii]

We be mad >:[

 

[Chuee]

JoWii you're turning into a pile of salt

 

[Zhamy]

Both of you are mad

I'm master of mad.

Wow Zhamy, you pegged me so hard. I give up. U rite. Fox beats Kirby +3. If Fox does.........well idk but Zhamy does, then he'll destroy Kirby and there's nothing we can do about it.

This guy can't read.

It's still slight Kirby advantage, it's still the same thing as we've talked about five million times before.

Honestly he's master of trolling himself it seems.

 

[Rizk18]

This MU is not that hard. JoWi is making it seem like it's Pikachu, Ice Climbers or Sheik. Those MU's are hard MU's but Kirby doesn't compare to them in difficulty. I still say 50-50 or 55-45 Kirby.

 

[t!MmY]

​

Fox vs Kirby
by t1mmy


Overview
In general Kirby and Fox have similar options and tactics. The main differences between the two characters include speed and options. Fox's fast ground speed and quick vertical movement allow him to cover distances very quickly compared to Kirby. This by itself opens up a lot of strategic options but combined with his Laser and quick-landing attacks, Fox gains even more versatility. Kirby's strength is in his strings, combos, and mix-ups. These strengths gain an even greater boost considering Fox's light weight and penchant for being juggled and gimped.

Long Range
Since Fox has the speed advantage, it's easy for him to set the spacing and tempo of the match. At long range, Kirby has little to nothing to work with, so it is Fox's advantage to be as far away as Lasers will reach. While it's true that Kirby's crouch is low enough to avoid practically any Laser sent at him, the best this form of defense will accomplish is a stalemate. Foxes have also developed techniques to put Laser pressure on a crouching Kirby such as Ledge-hopped Lasers and working with stage transformations/tilting. At any rate it is most common for one combatant or the other to approach.

Mid-Range
Fox's short-ranged attacks get a noticeable boost from his quick dashing and jumping speeds. Because of this, the Mid-range distancing for Kirby is a little further outside what would be Fox's usual pressure zone. This is simply to give Kirby the time to react to anything Fox throws out at Kirby. Most often Fox attacks from above, and since Fox's horizontal movement is not on par with his vertical movement, this will give Kirby plenty of time to react to any aerial offense. Ground-based offense from Fox will come out at a much quicker speed, but aside from his Smash Attacks there's little to be concerned with a Fox on the ground.

Speaking of Smash Attacks, this is the distance at which Kirby will have to be on the lookout for a Dashing Up-Smash from Fox, specifically when Kirby reaches KO percent. Fox's U-smash KO's at 82% without DI (from FD's baseline) and 91% with bland horizontal DI. Fox's U-smash hits as early as frame 8, which combined with his dashing speed makes for a very speedy and deadly finisher.

The good news for Kirby is that Fox leaves himself very vulnerable every time he attempts a U-smash. The reason is because if Fox hits a Shield, Kirby has anywhere from +26 to +33 frame advantage from a regular Shield and +36 to +43 from a Perfect Shield. So while the U-smash can push Kirby away a good distance in his Shield, there's usually enough time to hit out of Shield-Drop with any practical move.

A note to both Fox and Kirby players: if Kirby is camping B-air at this range, Fox can dash in and U-smash the B-air before Kirby can jump out of range or drop to the ground and Shield. If Kirby hits Fox's shield with a well-spaced B-air, Fox has enough time to Shield-Drop and buffer a Dash into a Dashing U-smash (with a 4-frame window of opportunity).

Close-Range
Both Fox and Kirby are competent close-range fighters. Fox is slightly faster than Kirby by 1-frame for Jab, F-tilt, and U-tilt but Kirby's D-tilt hits on frame 4 and Fox's hits on frame 7. U-tilt is favored by both characters as it can launch the opponent into a juggle. Kirby's U-tilt is much better in this match-up since Fox gets juggled much more easily than Kirby, plus Kirby can combo U-tilt into various attacks (usually Grab at lower percents and B-air at higher percents). Fox will generally use his U-tilt to either combo into a Grab or another U-tilt at low percents and will simply use it as a damage builder at mid-percents; at higher percents Fox has better attacks to use.

Kirby is much more likely to use his D-tilt than Fox. It is faster than Fox's, has about as much reach, and has a high likelihood of tripping. If the D-tilt trips at low percents, this usually leads into a Throw combo. If the D-tilt trips at higher percents, this can easily lead to a KO with a F-smash follow-up. Even without a trip, Kirby can use the D-tilt's quick attack to follow up with a surprise Grab or F-tilt.

Fox's Jab is superior to Kirby's if only in speed. While it's only a frame faster, at this speed that's generally enough to win out any speed wars. Both Fox and Kirby can benefit from mixing up close-range attacks with Jabs to keep the opponent off-balance or to keep pressure going.

Fox and Kirby both use F-tilt as a spacing tool at this range. It's main purpose is to strike from a safer distance than Jab would allow yet remain less vulnerable than going for Grabs and Smashes which are easier to predict and punish. The use of the F-tilt on both sides of the fight is about equal with Fox's being slightly faster. The benefit of Kirby's F-tilt in this match is its horizontal knockback which can be enough to put Fox off-stage and in a precarious situation. Fox's F-tilt is simply for damage, pressure, or spacing.

Jump-canceling a Shield is very effective at this range since both fighters can be easily punished out of shield. This includes Jump-canceling into Aerials as well as U-smash; Kirby is apt to Shield-cancel with a Grab as well. Note that at this range if Kirby B-airs Fox's Shield, Fox can immediately Jump Cancel into a U-smash.

Air and Off-stage Game
Kirby's aerial attacks are actually better suited for combos and damage building than Fox's are, except that Fox's amazing ground-to-air movement makes him a hard target. Likewise it can be a risk for Fox to move in for an aerial attack simply because of Kirby's effective attacks and the fact that a quick Shield will beat any Aerial Fox launches. This is why Fox uses his quick movement to keep Kirby guessing as to if and when Fox will move in for an attack from the air or from the ground.

The most effective Aerial Kirby has in this match-up is obviously his B-air. Not only is it reliably quick (hitting on frame 6) it also deals a decent amount of damage (12% sweet-spotted and 9% sour), plus it has decent range. Because of all these reasons, Kirby's B-air tends to stale out quickly doing reduced damage and knockback. Even when stale however, Kirby's B-air is a remarkable tool for getting Fox off-stage.

The off-stage game is obviously in Kirby's favor both in recovery and in edge-guarding. When Kirby is off-stage, Fox will usually resort to shooting lasers from a distance while Kirby floats back to the ledge. If any aggressive edge-guarding comes from Fox's side of things it will usually be close to the ledge where he can make a quick retreat, such as dropping with a Shine or a Ledge-Hopped N-air while returning to the Stage.

Kirby's edge-guarding is effective and versatile against Fox. Against Fox's Illusion, Kirby can quickly Edge Hog if he suspects Fox will go for the Ledge, or he can intercept the Illusion on-stage with Smash Attacks, Hammers, and Stones. As long as his prediction is correct, Kirby has the opportunity to land very powerful attacks on Fox - and even if Fox avoids these attacks he's often not in a position to punish them. Kirby can also take the strategy of staying on stage and sending out a Final Cutter Shot to intercept any jumps, Illusions, or Fire Foxes that cross its path. Hitting any one of these with a Cutter Shot moves Fox from a bad position into an even worse position to recover.

KO Options
Both characters have powerful KO options. Kirby has a wider array of strong attacks, but they're all slow and exceptionally easy to punish. The weight of each character doesn't come into play much, although Fox is noticeably harder to Star KO than Kirby is; the majority of Fox's KOs on Kirby will be vertical and the majority of Kirby's KOs on Fox will be horizontal. In general both characters must take care not throw out KO-attacks recklessly since they're easy to punish.

Summary
This match-up is very dependent on player knowledge, spacing, and effective punishment. The advantages and disadvantages also fluctuates based on the Stage selected with short ceilings and camp-friendly stages helping Fox and smaller stages with shorter horizontal boundaries helping Kirby. Speed combined with lasers and a swift U-smash are Fox's greatest advantages, and Kirby's close-ranged attacks and off-stage prowess are his. This all points to a fairly even match-up.

 

[Rizk18]

Great job T!mmy! Very detailed description and very helpful. I agree with fairly even, though I can see it as being slight Kirby favor. Only 55-45 though, no big deal.

 

[GUARD]

Some of you give amazing points.....

However, I'll be honest.....and I'm ready for anyone who will disagree.

There is NO WAY IN HELL that this match-up is below 50:50 for Fox. (as previously stated)
I would be willing to give a slight upper hand to Fox accually. (very debatable though)

Kirby CAN NOT camp. So if Fox has the % lead......it WILL be difficult for Kirby to approach.
If Kirby has the % lead, then Fox will find a way to approach you so that you will stop crouching.

I sometimes tend to go towards Kirby, and then reverse shtl. I wont ONLY be doing that since Kirby can punish this. But sometimes I bait Kirby by only shooting ONE laser after a short hop. This gives me more option to counter Kirby's approach.

Soooooo many of you gave sooo many points that it will be useless to rename them.

This match-up is NOT easy for Fox......but DEFFINETLY not lower than 50:50.

kirby is good....but he doesn't have NEARLY as many options as MK so a stage like Battlefield is accually not a problem for Fox. (yes....I rather go on FD though) I'm not saying that Fox has the upper hand there either.

For me its like this... ex: a snake should NOT bring a Fox on Halberd even if Snake is (arguably) a better character on that stage. so BF is great for Kirby....but also great for Fox.

 

[Rizk18]

It is seeming like the only bad MU's Fox has now are Pikachu,IC,and Shiek. I think everything else is even or his favor? I don't see why Fox isn't in at least low A-tier.

 

[Sage JoWii]

I went to WHOBO and played every Fox with the sole intent of using UTilt, crouch, and roll>DTilt.

Obviously you guys have been right the whole time because by spamming these tactics I could only take the multiple Foxes of different levels each to their last stocks.

I suppose if I used grabs, BAirs, DAir>Utilt, UAir juggling, inhale mixups, or pursued offstage oppurtunities harder, I could've done better, but I doubt it. I doubt it.

U guise waz rite, but I ain't even mad.

Edit: Gaurd, I'm not going to bother trolling you. What stages besides FD or SV have the amount of room to allow Fox to camp long enough that camping outweighs Kirby landing a 35~% grab combo (DThrow, not FThrow), or any of his other slightly less hard hitting moves? If I ban FD and strike SV, when are you going to play on those stages? CP, sure. You CP when you lose though, if you catch my drift. Legitimate question.

Edit2: And in order for Fox to get a lead, he needs to approach. Every Fox approached if I sat there and crouched long enough. If you approach and mess up, that's the lead lost. If you succeed in approaching and landing a bit of damage, you still have to get away from Kirby, with his ******** grab/tilt range, which can be a problem since Kirby does well when it comes to suffocating someone once in their range.

Edit3: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12396231&postcount=13965

 

[Rizk18]

Uair juggling...?

 

[GUARD]

Edit: Gaurd, I'm not going to bother trolling you. What stages besides FD or SV have the amount of room to allow Fox to camp long enough that camping outweighs Kirby landing a 35~% grab combo (DThrow, not FThrow), or any of his other slightly less hard hitting moves? If I ban FD and strike SV, when are you going to play on those stages? CP, sure. You CP when you lose though, if you catch my drift. Legitimate question.

Edit2: And in order for Fox to get a lead, he needs to approach. Every Fox approached if I sat there and crouched long enough. If you approach and mess up, that's the lead lost. If you succeed in approaching and landing a bit of damage, you still have to get away from Kirby, with his ******** grab/tilt range, which can be a problem since Kirby does well when it comes to suffocating someone once in their range.

hmmm good question. I would CP Japes if it was still on. lol but its not.. PS1 is a VERY good choice for Fox. Pictochat isn't a bad choice either. If you were to ban FD, then I would 'most likely' choose SV to be safe......or PS1 so I can have an easyer time camping.

I'll say it again...this match-up is NOT easy for Fox, I just don't believe it's below 50-50. Also, on a stage like SV.....sure Fox doesn't have much room to camp....but sometimes he doesn't need it (especially against a Kirby).

I find it easyer to camp yes...but the smaller the stage, the less I tend to see Kirby crouch and stuff. So it seems like we would both have to play 'slightly' differently.

 

[Sage JoWii]

I'll go ahead and say that PS1 is arguably in the top 5 best CP/starters for Kirby. Picto is also a great CP for Kirby, though maybe not in this MU. Since Kirby has no bad stages, it's hard to CP him.

Juss remember, in an actual tournament setting, FD and SV are getting striked first so you'll be playing on (depending on stage list) either Yoshi's Island (B), Lylat, PS1, or BF.

YI is waaaay easy for Kirby to crouch camp; Lylat as well because of the tilt which will also opress one of Fox's recovery options; PS1 is arguably Kirby's top5 CP/starters due to all the janky stuff Kirby can do there, plus there's platforms and terrain to obstruct lazers; and BF...is small.

Beyond that expect FD to be banned.

Edit: Rizk, at higher mid- to hi- percents, if you eat an UAir, you'll probably eat another before you set foot back on the ground. The range is super deceiving (beats MK DAir) and has plenty of knockback. Towards the higher percents you'll stay in the air from a UAir.

 

[GUARD]

the OFFICIAL starter stages are FD, SV, BF, Yoshi's, PS1, Lylat, Casle Siege, Delfino and Halberd.

if you strike FD and SV FOR SURE then ok. I believe Kirby wont mind Lylat, PS1 and Delfino. I don't know of too many people who enjoy Yoshi's but lets say that you like it/don't mind it.

Well I personally do NOT mind going on PS1, BF, Halberd and Casle Siege against a Kirby as well as FD and SV of course. (which will most likely be striked by Kirby).

Put it this way.....lets say that you strike FD and SV, I will strike FOR SURE Yoshi's, and Lylat. I don't mind about ALL other stages but I would probably strike Delfino at some point.

To be honest....I LOVE Delfino.... but it will be FAR from my first choise though. I know it's very good for Kirby.

All this to say that Fox won't mind most of these neutral stages either.

Since Japes is gone.....I would most likely CP Kirby on a VERY safe stage.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Alright according to that stage list you provided:

Kirby strikes FD, SV and CS. Fox strikes Lylat, YI, and Delfino. Kirby strikes BF (or PS1 depending on the Kirby). Fox strikes Halberd. First match goes to PS1 (where Kirby has a million janky shenanigans and Fox gets screwed over by the lip sometimes) or BF (where there's less room for Fox to run, but he has a better recovery).

Kirby bans FD, and CPs to w/e stage he feels comfortable on as a player.

 

[RPK]

Actually, itd probably go either BF, or Halberd. Halberd has a ridiculously low ceiling which means you can die at an earlier % from an upsmash if you make any mistakes.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Hm, well that is true. Switch CS to Halberd in the first set of strikes for Kirby if the Kirby main is on the cautious side.

 

[RPK]

If kirby strikes FD, SV, CS. Fox would probably strike Lylate, Delfino, PS1. Leaving YI which isnt as bad as people think IMO, BF, and Halberd. Though, that'd be me. I just love the platform shenanigans on Yoshi's <3

 

[GUARD]

Kirby's shouldn't underestimate Fox on PS1 either. For one thing.....we have our infinite (kinda) wall shine. Yes you can SDI this but most of the time, the wall is just too high and is a REAL pain to SDI that shine abuse.

The stage is also big enough for us to survive longer and camp.

I realised that the edges would only be bad for Fox if he were to Up-B from below (and even there). Accually, Fox should NOT Up-B or even side-B when too close to the ledge because yes...the edges are anoying. However, if Fox knows how to recover on PS1 then it wont be a problem.

It's just like Lylat. Never (kinda) side-B or up-B directly horizontal to grab the ledge when Fox is too close. (if we have no choise then thats another story. lol)

 

[Sage JoWii]

Kirby has a jab infinite every place that Fox has a shine infinite on PS1. It's SDI-able but like SDI-ing a shine, it's a pain.

There's so much stuff getting in the way of any worthwhile lazer camping that having Fox here is a benefit for Kirby.

It's not so much that it WILL affect your recovery and screw you over, but simply that it MIGHT. Just like in doubles when you're beating on someone, if you see their MK partner rushing in, juss the simple fact of him being there limits your options. The simple fact that you could be gimped by the ledge makes Fox wary of going to the ledge all the time. It makes punishing his recovery a bit easier.

 

[*CT*]

I'm dumb and never go for the ledge, I always phantasm farther into the stage, but people see me phantasming and try to punish it and don't expect the extend and then try to punish it with a smash or a grab and fail.

It's always good to have that mix-up.