Zero Suit Samus
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Match-Up Rediscussion #4! Zero Suit Samus
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
Go ^_^
∫unk
Smash Master
Edit: nvm I realized the short matchup analysis joke is old
serious post later I have a lot to say about this matchup
mazaloth general posts like that don't help at all... Just saying
serious post later I have a lot to say about this matchup
mazaloth general posts like that don't help at all... Just saying
**Havok**
Smash Lord
Junk knows this matchup very good 
-Don't challenge her down-B (the spike) aggressively, take your time to space it otherwise you will get hit. If she hits your hand while fairing, you get hit.
-at the beginning of the match i just want to get rid of her items since they hit really hard and she can pick them up and throw them much faster than marth, that is to say she has more options than marth has with items. They can also gimp .
-Her side-B whip thing can be annoying if she spaces it correctly the majority of the time (the tip) but if you get INSIDE the whip it has like a empty hitbox (i don't know what to call it) and you have a certain amount of time to punish. ONLY up close.
-When Size Zero Suit Samus is using her downsmash repeatedly, just block, its too risky to get hit by one and then face a bair that might gimp
-can't full hop fair here in this matchup too much since she has too many options to deal with you. Just keep it at short hop fast fall fair.
-When jabbed, you can up-B out of it, but they might try to bait it. You can also power shield the last hit to punish (if you hold shield), i think you need to be at full range of her jab to do this.
-ZSS gets gimped if you hit her out of her downB and grab the edge. Watch out for falling side-B!
-her lasers can be a bit annoying but you can punish them when she uses them since it takes a bit to recover from them.
-WATCH OUT FOR SPOTDODGE-UPTILT. or uptilt i general, its ****.
uhhhh that's all i can think of.
-Don't challenge her down-B (the spike) aggressively, take your time to space it otherwise you will get hit. If she hits your hand while fairing, you get hit.
-at the beginning of the match i just want to get rid of her items since they hit really hard and she can pick them up and throw them much faster than marth, that is to say she has more options than marth has with items. They can also gimp
. -Her side-B whip thing can be annoying if she spaces it correctly the majority of the time (the tip) but if you get INSIDE the whip it has like a empty hitbox (i don't know what to call it) and you have a certain amount of time to punish. ONLY up close.
-When Size Zero Suit Samus is using her downsmash repeatedly, just block, its too risky to get hit by one and then face a bair that might gimp
-can't full hop fair here in this matchup too much since she has too many options to deal with you. Just keep it at short hop fast fall fair.
-When jabbed, you can up-B out of it, but they might try to bait it. You can also power shield the last hit to punish (if you hold shield), i think you need to be at full range of her jab to do this.
-ZSS gets gimped if you hit her out of her downB and grab the edge. Watch out for falling side-B!
-her lasers can be a bit annoying but you can punish them when she uses them since it takes a bit to recover from them.
-WATCH OUT FOR SPOTDODGE-UPTILT. or uptilt i general, its ****.
uhhhh that's all i can think of.
DivineFalchion
Smash Rookie
Don't taze me bruh... Dsmash is the only true setup ZSS has but since you'll be spacing properly that's not really a huge problem. Just stay in the short hop distance above ground at most times. I'd like to that say good spacing wins this matchup, but that's far from the truth.
The main approach from ZSS is either that Stun Gun or a dash attack, but for the most part... ZSS wont be the one approaching. Your opponent will be trying to do some mix of spacing/camping of their own with that Side B flame whip. As stated before, D-smash is what usually raeps most characters but you don't really have to worry about it since you have great aerial mobility. But don't let your fancy airworks get to your head, ZSS has some rather nice aerials that can lead into pseudo-combos if you're not careful.
Rising F-airs should be your main approach as with any char with a good tether grab. No matter how good your spacing is, you'll get grabbed upon landing against ZSS since she has OD shield grab range. (Someone check that?)
Don't high jump. Just don't do it. ZSS's f-air comes out RIDICULOUSLY fast, and don't even get me started on the u-air juggle trap. If you do happen to get high up in the air, think things through. Your opponent is baiting an air dodge, after all marth is juggle bait. Mix it up with how you land (this shouldn't be happening often if you want to win). Stall momentum with the first swing of dancing blade, or anticipate the airdodge bait. ZSS wants you to airdodge so she can catch you with landing lag, which she's particularly good at with that dash attack of hers.
Fortunately for you... ZSS is the ultimate j-bait (not jailbait). Even with that d-air of hers, you have enough time to react properly after she initiates the move (stalling in the air) with a simple DI out of the way or an air dodge, or if you're good at timing, a u-air. She's very vulnerable after this so you won't see a ZSS user doing this too much.
Gimping is your primary means of killing ZSS though it's not as easy as you think. I've played my shares of ZSS mainers (Speculosity and XxpatgxX) to name a couple and one thing I've learned is that if you haven't practiced gimping ZSS, you won't get it right. Her 2nd jump is insanely good, almost comparable to Toon Link's. Not only this, she's got a B special to give her a third jump before using the tether. A simple hanging on the ledge won't work here. You know how high/far that 2nd jump goes, you know an aerial is coming in most cases, simply DI from the f-air and strike back (counterattack if you're feeling stylish).
Also, be smart with your stages... You don't want to play on stages like Norfair that get rid of your gimp game completely. Still, don't have your game rely on picking Frigate because most ZSS users ban that stage and besides, only the right side of the first half of the stage is beneficial for you. I've personally come to the realization that japes is actually a very good stage vs ZSS. Why you might be wondering? Tether mechanics work against her. When she jumps while in the middle platform and tries to do her Side B, what happens? She tethers one of the side ledges just because of the mechanics of the game. She can't safely attack you while you're positioned on either of these ledges with her killing side B, giving you camping ability at higher%.
The river itself is a gimp on ZSS (maybe on you too, but you have better chances of surviving). Her up-b is completely eliminated on this stage because she can't go low enough to use it. Her side b however is still viable, but if you force her to use it too far away, she'll drop down in the traditional tether position and be carried away by the river (grimey i know). You also don't have to worry about getting killed by u-air so much unless you just suck at DI.
Oh almost forgot. ARMOR PIECES. They are annoying as hell at the beginning of the match. You're not gonna fight too many overly honorable ZSS users who throw the pieces of armor away at the beginning of the match because they believe they're unfair items. In reality, they are projectiles created by the opponent... similar to rob's Gyro. These things have incredible knockback and can be a pain to get. ZSS will be using them at the beginning of the match in either two ways...
A) To distract you enough to get in mild damage in combination with throwing them.
B) To actually try to hit you with them.
Most ZSS users go for option A seeing how a simple side dodge can get the pieces off the battlefield in an instant if you dodge the throw. Sure she'll throw them at you occasionally, but this is just extra noise to make you either jump into the air or get stuck in your shield. ZSS has a very nice glide range, comparable to your own. If you have the chance, glide toss one of those things back at her. More than likely, ZSS is better at armor piece mindgames than you are, so i wouldn't get so caught up in trying to mindgame her.
Something worth mentioning: If you get hit by a dash attack at low to midlow%, even if it's not OoS, dolphin slash immediately. Every ZSS i've played always follows this up with that neutral a combo for some reason.
Final Notes
1) Be smart about getting juggled. Don't get insanely predictable when trying to get back on the ground.
2) CP Japes, it works wonders.
3) Don't get mindgamed by armor pieces, but if you're not feeling confident, just dodge them.
4) Side B has a lot of start up lag, so if you're stuck in mid shorthop when she does it, you can easily fast fall and shield (unless you're in the middle of a f-air, but why are you f-airing if she's that far away?)
5) Your juggle trap works wonders
6) Practice Gimping
The main approach from ZSS is either that Stun Gun or a dash attack, but for the most part... ZSS wont be the one approaching. Your opponent will be trying to do some mix of spacing/camping of their own with that Side B flame whip. As stated before, D-smash is what usually raeps most characters but you don't really have to worry about it since you have great aerial mobility. But don't let your fancy airworks get to your head, ZSS has some rather nice aerials that can lead into pseudo-combos if you're not careful.
Rising F-airs should be your main approach as with any char with a good tether grab. No matter how good your spacing is, you'll get grabbed upon landing against ZSS since she has OD shield grab range. (Someone check that?)
Don't high jump. Just don't do it. ZSS's f-air comes out RIDICULOUSLY fast, and don't even get me started on the u-air juggle trap. If you do happen to get high up in the air, think things through. Your opponent is baiting an air dodge, after all marth is juggle bait. Mix it up with how you land (this shouldn't be happening often if you want to win). Stall momentum with the first swing of dancing blade, or anticipate the airdodge bait. ZSS wants you to airdodge so she can catch you with landing lag, which she's particularly good at with that dash attack of hers.
Fortunately for you... ZSS is the ultimate j-bait (not jailbait). Even with that d-air of hers, you have enough time to react properly after she initiates the move (stalling in the air) with a simple DI out of the way or an air dodge, or if you're good at timing, a u-air. She's very vulnerable after this so you won't see a ZSS user doing this too much.
Gimping is your primary means of killing ZSS though it's not as easy as you think. I've played my shares of ZSS mainers (Speculosity and XxpatgxX) to name a couple and one thing I've learned is that if you haven't practiced gimping ZSS, you won't get it right. Her 2nd jump is insanely good, almost comparable to Toon Link's. Not only this, she's got a B special to give her a third jump before using the tether. A simple hanging on the ledge won't work here. You know how high/far that 2nd jump goes, you know an aerial is coming in most cases, simply DI from the f-air and strike back (counterattack if you're feeling stylish).
Also, be smart with your stages... You don't want to play on stages like Norfair that get rid of your gimp game completely. Still, don't have your game rely on picking Frigate because most ZSS users ban that stage and besides, only the right side of the first half of the stage is beneficial for you. I've personally come to the realization that japes is actually a very good stage vs ZSS. Why you might be wondering? Tether mechanics work against her. When she jumps while in the middle platform and tries to do her Side B, what happens? She tethers one of the side ledges just because of the mechanics of the game. She can't safely attack you while you're positioned on either of these ledges with her killing side B, giving you camping ability at higher%.
The river itself is a gimp on ZSS (maybe on you too, but you have better chances of surviving). Her up-b is completely eliminated on this stage because she can't go low enough to use it. Her side b however is still viable, but if you force her to use it too far away, she'll drop down in the traditional tether position and be carried away by the river (grimey i know). You also don't have to worry about getting killed by u-air so much unless you just suck at DI.
Oh almost forgot. ARMOR PIECES. They are annoying as hell at the beginning of the match. You're not gonna fight too many overly honorable ZSS users who throw the pieces of armor away at the beginning of the match because they believe they're unfair items. In reality, they are projectiles created by the opponent... similar to rob's Gyro. These things have incredible knockback and can be a pain to get. ZSS will be using them at the beginning of the match in either two ways...
A) To distract you enough to get in mild damage in combination with throwing them.
B) To actually try to hit you with them.
Most ZSS users go for option A seeing how a simple side dodge can get the pieces off the battlefield in an instant if you dodge the throw. Sure she'll throw them at you occasionally, but this is just extra noise to make you either jump into the air or get stuck in your shield. ZSS has a very nice glide range, comparable to your own. If you have the chance, glide toss one of those things back at her. More than likely, ZSS is better at armor piece mindgames than you are, so i wouldn't get so caught up in trying to mindgame her.
Something worth mentioning: If you get hit by a dash attack at low to midlow%, even if it's not OoS, dolphin slash immediately. Every ZSS i've played always follows this up with that neutral a combo for some reason.
Final Notes
1) Be smart about getting juggled. Don't get insanely predictable when trying to get back on the ground.
2) CP Japes, it works wonders.
3) Don't get mindgamed by armor pieces, but if you're not feeling confident, just dodge them.
4) Side B has a lot of start up lag, so if you're stuck in mid shorthop when she does it, you can easily fast fall and shield (unless you're in the middle of a f-air, but why are you f-airing if she's that far away?)
5) Your juggle trap works wonders
6) Practice Gimping
FIERCE
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2007
- Messages
- 240
This match-up is one of my funner ones, although a long time ago I used to loathe it. Whenever I play against Marth I make sure to stay within Plasma Whip range (& NO CLOSER). When Marth get's really close: 0SS's OOS options tend to diminish (Up-tilt is laggy and punishable, Jab/D-tilt can be Up+Special'd) so I tend to backup & find a space to reorganize myself. I'd like to say the match-up is even but I'd like to hear more from other Marth mains before I make a judgment. (For some reason I always have to play at least 2 Marths in every tournament I enter).
I don't have much to say about the Suit pieces, those who have played me (Junk, Havok, MikeHAZE, BoA) know I tend to use them as defensive items rather than offensive ones. (:
EDIT: For counter pick stages I'd suggest Jungle Japes & for stages to ban - Lylat Cruise (0SS can down smash through platforms) and Final Destination (it allows 0SS to camp).
I don't have much to say about the Suit pieces, those who have played me (Junk, Havok, MikeHAZE, BoA) know I tend to use them as defensive items rather than offensive ones. (:
EDIT: For counter pick stages I'd suggest Jungle Japes & for stages to ban - Lylat Cruise (0SS can down smash through platforms) and Final Destination (it allows 0SS to camp).
lol @ you'll get most of your kills by gimping her...
A good ZSS does NOT get gimped. She has too many good recovery options. If you're gimping ZSS, they're doing it wrong. You're kills will be, well, kill. I usually get them with the top of the swing tipper bair and tipper nair.
A good ZSS does NOT get gimped. She has too many good recovery options. If you're gimping ZSS, they're doing it wrong. You're kills will be, well, kill. I usually get them with the top of the swing tipper bair and tipper nair.
DivineFalchion
Smash Rookie
Emphasized a little, CJ, but if you can't gimp ZSS then maybe YOU'RE doing something wrong.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Let's see if we can get Snakeee in here. Umm I'll post more later too, but:
- Rid the pieces quickly, it can work really bad against you and good ZSS will use them to their full advantage.
- Staying above her is deadly, especially offstage, don't get gimped (Side B, Bair, Uair)
- Supposedly they have a DA lock on us up to a fairly high %, since it hasn't really been elaborated on, I'll just say stay cautious and UpB out of it.
More later.
- Rid the pieces quickly, it can work really bad against you and good ZSS will use them to their full advantage.
- Staying above her is deadly, especially offstage, don't get gimped (Side B, Bair, Uair)
- Supposedly they have a DA lock on us up to a fairly high %, since it hasn't really been elaborated on, I'll just say stay cautious and UpB out of it.
More later.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
So I have a question.
What the hell do you do at the beginning of the match? Assuming they're don't just fling armor pieces at you and use them intelligently, how do you approach? Do you just bait tosses until the armor pieces are gone? It's hard to start the approach since ZSS already has a prettygood wall, but add practically lagless armor piece throws and approaching seems really hard. >> Usually I'm at like 80% 15-20 seconds into a game against ZSS. Clearly I'm doing it wrong.
What the hell do you do at the beginning of the match? Assuming they're don't just fling armor pieces at you and use them intelligently, how do you approach? Do you just bait tosses until the armor pieces are gone? It's hard to start the approach since ZSS already has a prettygood wall, but add practically lagless armor piece throws and approaching seems really hard. >> Usually I'm at like 80% 15-20 seconds into a game against ZSS. Clearly I'm doing it wrong.
When i played Snakeee at cot4 he just threw all the pieces off immediately except for one because Marth can close the distance so quickly. That's basically what I do at the start, get to the opp as fast as possible.
If you give Zamus space in this match you'll get *****. You need to stay on her at all times.
@divinefalchion
Gimping is NOT the primary way to kill her >_> And NO ONE should be CP'ng Japes >_> It's horrid for Marth. I don't care if it's bad for her too, Marth gets screwed over just as hard if not harder.
If you give Zamus space in this match you'll get *****. You need to stay on her at all times.
@divinefalchion
Gimping is NOT the primary way to kill her >_> And NO ONE should be CP'ng Japes >_> It's horrid for Marth. I don't care if it's bad for her too, Marth gets screwed over just as hard if not harder.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Well if your used to getting armor *****, practice Dash --> PS, or AD grab a piece if they throw up high. Watch Darc vs Dazwa on Youtube, it'll show you methods that help rid the pieces, and how to bait the throw really well. basically oyu wanna close the distance.
EDIT - Lol steel beat me too it.
PepsiMista
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2009
- Messages
- 129
Yet again....
To whomever said "GIMP her":
you are Obviously doing something wrong.
I say 55-45 ZSS.
To whomever said "GIMP her":
you are Obviously doing something wrong.
I say 55-45 ZSS.
∫unk
Smash Master
Nope... u-tilt is her best and most used one. She usually has jab to set up stuff too but its not good vs Marth.
If you space good you win every matchup lol. My definition of spacing is pretty loose though.
Falling stun gun sets up a relatively safe dash attack... just doing one or the other isn't a safe approach at all.
Simply not true... ZSS can get Marth into his bad zone really easily with u-air and u-tilt, then guess his landing spot and d-smash. He can also punish Marth's smashes if powershielded or his up b really easy regular shielded with d-smash.
You always worry about a ~40% combo that can lead into your bad zone and more hits, or can kill you.
Sounds great in theory, terrible in practice. db1 is pretty laggy and ZSS' vertical range is fast enough to just double jump and hit you with up b or u-air easily.
NO NO NO NO NO
Maybe on wifi, maybe with your buddies, maybe that one friendly while you guys were all drunk, but not against any ZSS player that's ranked/well known/beaten well known people.
It's doesn't mean anything when you name drop randoms. Just saying :/
You don't even mention her best edgeguard avoiding move, the flip jump. Invincibility frames, possibility to do a long footstool jump, attack, or air dodge out of it?
The best part is the slightly indented part in the middle with the low platform...
And ZSS will ban Japes unless they know you're only going to play Marth and have no idea how to play Japes. Usually that happens with Marth players because they ban it anyway... but you don't really run into super hardcore Marth mains or Marth mains without a secondary in tournament.
In tournament, unless they really know you, they should to ban Japes.
>_> you just realized this?
Why even mention this?
"You're not going to meet many Metaknights who kill themselves in the beginning because they believe their character is too good."
The knockback should never be that large... throwing the pieces stales itself. It's fresh when you're at 0%. After it hits you a few times the knockback is severely reduced, regardless of what piece she's using. You do have a chance of being gimped though.
This is where the notion of a "fresh piece" comes into play, especially in teams if someone grabs a "fresh piece" (aka they haven't touched a piece yet) while everyone is at >100% they become the most dangerous person on the map.
Dodging the throw is a LOSING situation (sometimes necessary). Even if it works, you've gained no advantage, you're still in a losing state. If you timed it wrong, they read or are patient, then you get hit, and are in an even worse situation. So they aren't worried about that really.
Glide tossing for no reason is silly. You glide toss to position yourself quickly. If you're already in a good position there's no need.
∫unk
Smash Master
Darc vs Dazwa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AMpoD_cg1g
Junk vs WarpStatus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM_6ZqhCNWc#t=5m10s
I'll write more on this, but there's 2 video examples.
Mostly it has to do with not making your landing point obvious.
noradseven
Smash Lord
Some ZSS players are moving towards using the armor pieces like wall, or temporary no go zones or weird shield pressure with tons of drops now, because alot of ppl near us got used to OO lolol toss item right on landing, and did as you suggested or just got good at grabbing them out of the air.
I am not participating in another one of these, jesus christ ppl the match is between 6:4 Marth favor and 6:4 ZSS favor can we just leave it at that GOD.
This match is very dependent upon the ppl playing seriously, you gotta change styles and adapt quickly to the situation changes personally its a fun match.
I am not participating in another one of these, jesus christ ppl the match is between 6:4 Marth favor and 6:4 ZSS favor can we just leave it at that GOD.
This match is very dependent upon the ppl playing seriously, you gotta change styles and adapt quickly to the situation changes personally its a fun match.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
The better player will win. It's close enough to even that calling it anything but 50:50 is splitting hairs, which we can do if you want. I know this match-up well enough so here are a few things to watch out for:
First, ZSS is a swordsman. Every attack she has save for her jab is either disjointed or projectile. Her bair slightly outranges and outprioritizes your fair, but it's pretty hard to land that, so usually we'll try to avoid it. The hitbox on your fair is sweeping and wide and it's difficult to aim through.
You definitely don't want to be under ZSS. Her uair is broken and Marth loses some luster when he's over top of jugglers. With that said, ZSS does, too. When she's above you or in a bad position in the air, you can juggle her for a while but she'll escape eventually.
She can down-b out of dancing blade. It's hard to do but good ones will down-b out after the second hit.
Edge-guarding/gimping usually won't happen. However, that doesn't mean it's impossible. ZSS gets back eventually, but you can deal some serious damage by antagonizing her while she's recovering the edge.
Her get-up attack while on the ledge is broken. It is 100% disjoint. So, when trying to punish a get-up, it is important that you stand back a little bit.
If ZSS dash attack locks you, you can't escape with Dolphin Slash. The lock is pretty situational but if they get you with it, your best bet is to try to hold R in case they mess up.
Your best CP and neutral is probably Yoshi's. It is very easy to camp her because of the platform over top and easy to guard her while she's recovering too. If you stand by the tilting platform, you're just in tipper fsmash range and can't get hit by any of her get-ups or edge follow-ups. She'll have a really hard time coming back here.
Most of your really good stages are also her really good stages (Marth and ZSS are pretty similar characters, really) so it's hard to CP. Don't go CPing Frigate thinking you'll gimp her on the lame edge. Frigate isn't a great stage for her, but not that bad, either. I don't know for sure how good Marth is on Lylat, but I haven't heard good things. That is her best stage, followed by Rainbow Cruise. Japes sucks, but I wouldn't take her there, as she probably has the edge slightly.
Overall a very fun match, close enough to even.
First, ZSS is a swordsman. Every attack she has save for her jab is either disjointed or projectile. Her bair slightly outranges and outprioritizes your fair, but it's pretty hard to land that, so usually we'll try to avoid it. The hitbox on your fair is sweeping and wide and it's difficult to aim through.
You definitely don't want to be under ZSS. Her uair is broken and Marth loses some luster when he's over top of jugglers. With that said, ZSS does, too. When she's above you or in a bad position in the air, you can juggle her for a while but she'll escape eventually.
She can down-b out of dancing blade. It's hard to do but good ones will down-b out after the second hit.
Edge-guarding/gimping usually won't happen. However, that doesn't mean it's impossible. ZSS gets back eventually, but you can deal some serious damage by antagonizing her while she's recovering the edge.
Her get-up attack while on the ledge is broken. It is 100% disjoint. So, when trying to punish a get-up, it is important that you stand back a little bit.
If ZSS dash attack locks you, you can't escape with Dolphin Slash. The lock is pretty situational but if they get you with it, your best bet is to try to hold R in case they mess up.
Your best CP and neutral is probably Yoshi's. It is very easy to camp her because of the platform over top and easy to guard her while she's recovering too. If you stand by the tilting platform, you're just in tipper fsmash range and can't get hit by any of her get-ups or edge follow-ups. She'll have a really hard time coming back here.
Most of your really good stages are also her really good stages (Marth and ZSS are pretty similar characters, really) so it's hard to CP. Don't go CPing Frigate thinking you'll gimp her on the lame edge. Frigate isn't a great stage for her, but not that bad, either. I don't know for sure how good Marth is on Lylat, but I haven't heard good things. That is her best stage, followed by Rainbow Cruise. Japes sucks, but I wouldn't take her there, as she probably has the edge slightly.
Overall a very fun match, close enough to even.
That's cool and all, but what happens when the two are at a neutral position fighting each other? All you gave us for that part is "The hitbox on your fair is sweeping and wide and it's difficult to aim through."
Zamus doesn't have the tools to consistently get through aggressive Fair/dtilt/jab zoning. That's why this match can't be dead even. The best option you have is relying on power shielding and doing a dash attack or up air out of it.
You can't get out of dancing blade every time. Marth can get out if he smash DI's the first hit and up b's, but that only works at low percents. I imagine ZSS's down b would work similarly. It doesn't really affect the match in any way.
IMO it can't be any worse than 55:45 Marth.
Zamus doesn't have the tools to consistently get through aggressive Fair/dtilt/jab zoning. That's why this match can't be dead even. The best option you have is relying on power shielding and doing a dash attack or up air out of it.
You can't get out of dancing blade every time. Marth can get out if he smash DI's the first hit and up b's, but that only works at low percents. I imagine ZSS's down b would work similarly. It doesn't really affect the match in any way.
IMO it can't be any worse than 55:45 Marth.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I'm not going to theory brothers my way through a whole match with you. I was just giving a few hints to help you out. Suffice to say, side-b is dangerous. You will be approaching, not us. To get around side-b, you have to jump. If you jump, you are where we want you.
The only way to really approach in this match-up, though you probably already know this, is to powershield side-b and punish. I'm not arguing that you'll be getting juggled by her for the whole match or anything, but once you're in the air it's an easy 20% damage minimum. One dsmash is 40 damage. We kill early and have good DI. You'll have to work for your win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AMpoD_cg1g This is a pretty good example. You can see clearly that ZSS does have close range options and isn't just going to camp you at mid-range until you get stupid. This is a very common assumption I get pretty annoyed at seeing. ZSS is competent at close-range; not Marth level, but she can get you in the air.
The only way to really approach in this match-up, though you probably already know this, is to powershield side-b and punish. I'm not arguing that you'll be getting juggled by her for the whole match or anything, but once you're in the air it's an easy 20% damage minimum. One dsmash is 40 damage. We kill early and have good DI. You'll have to work for your win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AMpoD_cg1g This is a pretty good example. You can see clearly that ZSS does have close range options and isn't just going to camp you at mid-range until you get stupid. This is a very common assumption I get pretty annoyed at seeing. ZSS is competent at close-range; not Marth level, but she can get you in the air.
Actually, we can get through any of that with one move: back air. Plasma Whip probably does the job equally well. Btw, at low percentages, fair on us is a free uair on you.
∫unk
Smash Master
You realize Darc played the matchup completely wrong... I was only showing the match for the items part.
Marth can just approach with shield even if you do a perfectly spaced side B if Marth powershields he's inside. Even without powershielding if Marth was on the inside of the Side B tip he's inside (a lot easier to do with faster characteres). At any point he can jump oos and do a retreating f-air to reset.
Run and shield is very good and very safe vs ZSS.
But I think you're overestimating what he said cause he did say it was 55:45... obviously ZSS can **** the **** out of Marth.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I already said you could powershield the side-b. FYI, back air is safe on block, you can't punish it. ZSS can zone with bair instead of whip and things become much harder for you, although this does make killing you more difficult later.
The reason norad and I get so annoyed with this match-up is because most Marth players assume ZSS is the same character she was in like April 2008. She has more than side-b and items. Her close-range game is pretty respectable and her aerials are at least as good as yours, if not better; she's not going to fold just because you decide to dtilt and fair. Powershield+uair is a very reliable, safe response to fair approaches/camping, for instance.
Hell, bair is literally a response to almost anything you'll say. Dtilt/jab/fair camping? Bair beats literally all of that and more.
∫unk
Smash Master
>_> maybe you should read the other posts and not assume that we're assuming its zss from 2008.
b-air isn't that amazing
and i think you changed ur post before i responded or something anyways i missed it the first time i read it
b-air isn't that amazing
and i think you changed ur post before i responded or something anyways i missed it the first time i read it
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I changed it a few times.
Yes, bair is pretty great. Uair is better though.
Oh, and ZSS has better hair. It's the shampoo, she uses Garnier Fructis.
Yes, bair is pretty great. Uair is better though.
Oh, and ZSS has better hair. It's the shampoo, she uses Garnier Fructis.
The fact that you have the tools to keep Marth out is why we don't **** you. I know this.
Marth's best approach is on the ground. He won't be jumping at you if he's in side b range. Fact is, once Marth gets inside side b he has the tools to STAY there and MAINTAIN control of the match. Also, side b is one of those things you can easily shield on REACTION.
Dsmash is moderate in speed, not reliable enough to use unless Marth is already in a bad spot/stuck in shield or something.
Also Zamus isn't necessarily better at killing than Marth is. Marth wins out in raw killing power and is heavier than ZSS.
Bair is your most reliable move to shield pressure and side b is your most reliable to space. Marth overall has way more safer moves and is simply better up close. He puts Zamus on the defensive and is able to maintain control of the match. That's where it counts the most and so I give him the nod.
Marth's best approach is on the ground. He won't be jumping at you if he's in side b range. Fact is, once Marth gets inside side b he has the tools to STAY there and MAINTAIN control of the match. Also, side b is one of those things you can easily shield on REACTION.
Dsmash is moderate in speed, not reliable enough to use unless Marth is already in a bad spot/stuck in shield or something.
Also Zamus isn't necessarily better at killing than Marth is. Marth wins out in raw killing power and is heavier than ZSS.
Bair is your most reliable move to shield pressure and side b is your most reliable to space. Marth overall has way more safer moves and is simply better up close. He puts Zamus on the defensive and is able to maintain control of the match. That's where it counts the most and so I give him the nod.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Curiously, how do you intend to stay inside? Utilt comes out on frame3, powershield+uair on any attack you do at close range is pretty much guaranteed. Dash attack is frame 6, jab is frame 1. At best you can deal some serious damage to her at close range but your best options will just knock her into mid-range again.
Up tilt won't reach, jab won't reach, dash attack is unsafe and won't do anything if Marth is covering himself correctly. Power shielding is all you have.
You have a better spacing game, Marth has the tools to get through and wins up close.
You have a better spacing game, Marth has the tools to get through and wins up close.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Won't reach what? Fair? Bair beats fair.
You won't reach Marth >_>
You said how can Marth stay inside with moves like this _______, and you listed me a bunch of moves that won't even reach him.
I already stated bair is your most reliable move, but one move is just that, one move.
You said how can Marth stay inside with moves like this _______, and you listed me a bunch of moves that won't even reach him.
I already stated bair is your most reliable move, but one move is just that, one move.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I didn't give any examples of Marth moves. I said that ZSS has moves to use at close range. She also has more than one. If you're talking about Marth's "sword" range, then that's the easiest thing to answer. Just run away.
With that said, it is pretty clear that like the last several times we discussed this match-up nothing can be said to sway. If the match-up is in Marth's favor it is so slightly that it is barely worth mentioning, but I don't think it is at all. I stand by 50:50.
With that said, it is pretty clear that like the last several times we discussed this match-up nothing can be said to sway. If the match-up is in Marth's favor it is so slightly that it is barely worth mentioning, but I don't think it is at all. I stand by 50:50.
I never said you listed Marth's moves, and clearly I mean his sword range >_>
And if your answer is running away, then how doesn't Marth have the advantage when he can have you on the defensive a large part of the match?
And exactly, nothing has changed. Both times we officially discussed this before we ended with 60:40 Marth, I'm willing to put it at 55:45.
And if your answer is running away, then how doesn't Marth have the advantage when he can have you on the defensive a large part of the match?
And exactly, nothing has changed. Both times we officially discussed this before we ended with 60:40 Marth, I'm willing to put it at 55:45.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
You were wrong both times then as well. If anything, Marth has stayed the same and ZSS has not.
And no; it would if we didn't want to be at mid-range, that's where we want to be though. So it's not like running to mid-range is bad for us, lol.
The reality is while you might be more comfortable on the ground or in close range, there are few characters that can't say that about ZSS, lol. She's not a ground-based or close-range oriented character. Just because Marth is doesn't mean he's at an advantage. Also, it isn't as easy as you think it is to navigate her spacing game.
And no; it would if we didn't want to be at mid-range, that's where we want to be though. So it's not like running to mid-range is bad for us, lol.
- ZSS wnats Marth at mid-range.
- ZSS runs faster than Marth.
- ZSS out-spaces Marth at mid-range.
- Marth hurts when he gets in, and does well getting inside.
- He should not however, be able to stay inside for very long. ZSS has a speed advantage and powershield+rising uair is a very safe gtfo option on Marth, even at "sword range."
- ZSS is better in the air.
The reality is while you might be more comfortable on the ground or in close range, there are few characters that can't say that about ZSS, lol. She's not a ground-based or close-range oriented character. Just because Marth is doesn't mean he's at an advantage. Also, it isn't as easy as you think it is to navigate her spacing game.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Whoa whoa whoa.
ZSS is better in the air?
Define better.
Also...lol semantics.
It's fun to argue them isn't it?
ZSS is better in the air?
Define better.
Also...lol semantics.
It's fun to argue them isn't it?
You're right, Zamus hasn't stayed the same. Marth boards didn't take a year and a half to figure him out in this simple game.
You can't use bair unless turned around. If we see Zamus turned around then we know she's going to either jump bair or jump side b, making both of them easy to avoid/shield.
You're overrating this "speed advantage." Their attack speed and maneuverability are very similar.
Running away is also risky business, because it takes time to start your dash. If you get hit at that point then you Smash DI'd hard left or right, putting you off stage and letting us harass you off stage or ledge trap you.
But if you are successful in running away from Marth, then you effectively put yourself in a corner. A bad position for anyone. You're also just resetting everything.
You can't use bair unless turned around. If we see Zamus turned around then we know she's going to either jump bair or jump side b, making both of them easy to avoid/shield.
You're overrating this "speed advantage." Their attack speed and maneuverability are very similar.
Running away is also risky business, because it takes time to start your dash. If you get hit at that point then you Smash DI'd hard left or right, putting you off stage and letting us harass you off stage or ledge trap you.
But if you are successful in running away from Marth, then you effectively put yourself in a corner. A bad position for anyone. You're also just resetting everything.
noradseven
Smash Lord
congrats you are a douche
Whelp, that settles it 9:1, lets pack it up.
∫unk
Smash Master
zss mains are so feisty
and steel is apparently very bored
and steel is apparently very bored
noradseven
Smash Lord
I don't think so, no one has made a suggestion as to what marth should be doing with his sword which may imply that he is not as straight as his sword... and in fact the opposite of straight... because if someone said that it would just be mean.
Edit: ooops, looks like I did, hehe.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Hahaha.
Seriously, has there been any mention of a male that Samus might be interested in?
I mean **** at least Nintendo states Marth has a wife.
Seriously, has there been any mention of a male that Samus might be interested in?
I mean **** at least Nintendo states Marth has a wife.
noradseven
Smash Lord
Yeah but did he have kids, cause if not >.>
Uhhhhhh you must of never played metroid 2 did you, or fusion I think he was mentioned in that game as well.
Comedy option: Riddey we all know that hate is the closest emotion to love.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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No time for babies when ur saving the world and killing your former comrades that betrayed you know what I'm saying?
And yeah they mentioned her former commanding officer as a potential love interest.
TOO BAD HE'S DEAD M I RITE GAIZ?!
But seriously, gay jokes have been done to death and the Marth boards have heard it all. If you insist on doing them make it tasteful and interesting at the very least.
Not that I care too much.
I just lurk.
And yeah they mentioned her former commanding officer as a potential love interest.
TOO BAD HE'S DEAD M I RITE GAIZ?!
But seriously, gay jokes have been done to death and the Marth boards have heard it all. If you insist on doing them make it tasteful and interesting at the very least.
Not that I care too much.
I just lurk.