MATCH UPS....throw anything you got.....

[Brinzy]

Zelda players, we can be caped before we disappear and it'll affect warping. Just so we all know.

 

[Kataefi]

Just as a side note, Mario cannot up b during Zelda's dtilt lock if he trips, and dtilt has a good trip percentage.

DSmash from edge is lethal. He won't be able to recover.

His air speed isn't amazing. Can he chase Zelda in time to use cape on her FW? This has never happened to me.

 

[Matador]

Just as a side note, Mario cannot up b during Zelda's dtilt lock if he trips, and dtilt has a good trip percentage.

Yeah, that Dtilt is a great attack vs Mario. Even if you SDI, you still eat quit a bit of damage. I'm not sure if I was doing it wrong or whatever, but I usually ate about 4 before actually escaping. Something for Marios to avoid.

DSmash from edge is lethal. He won't be able to recover.

You can't imagine how much I hear this. Mario can recover from this attack if it doesn't kill him. The only time he WONT be able to recover is with bad DI low %, or good DI high %.

His air speed isn't amazing. Can he chase Zelda in time to use cape on her FW? This has never happened to me.

That's because you haven't played ME before. Mario's not slow...by any means. Catching Zelda during her upB or even afterwards isn't difficult given the right circumstances.

Fludd makes this twice as easy.

 

[Kataefi]

Nice ^^
Normally I'd try and use fresh DSmash near the ledge to gain the most from its trajectory. At around 100% from the edge it will place Mario somewhere around the farthest horizontal point, even with good DI. Then at the right time I'd try and edgehog if he attempts to make it back. At this % it may even kill him outright.

I havn't fought many Marios. They're a rare breed. Then again so are Zeldas :/

 

[Vyyruss]

I don't really see Shiek posing any sort of problem. She's fast but is kept on a leash
with fireballs. Zela's a little harder to deal with, but Fsmash is easily DIed out of,
an Nayru's love really isn't so smart to use against fireball approaches. Zelda's
easy to combo despite her lack in weight, and easy to kill... because of lack in weight.
If Zelda goes off the stage and fludd is charged it's pretty much over. Because even if she
manages to come back, she'd probably be pushed in an angle that'd make her land
on top of the stage instead of underneath. Zelda's love to sweetspot the edge to avoid
damage. The only real problem I see with Zelda is her spacing, she's might be able
to keep Mario at bay for a while, that could get annoying. Usmash could make aerial
approaches dangerous, but caution will get you around that. Most of Zelda's moves
are telegrapghed though, especially in the air. Hmmmm... I'd say
:

Zelda- 55:45 Mario favor
Sheik- 60:40 Mario favor

 

[Matador]

Nice ^^
Normally I'd try and use fresh DSmash near the ledge to gain the most from its trajectory. At around 100% from the edge it will place Mario somewhere around the farthest horizontal point, even with good DI. Then at the right time I'd try and edgehog if he attempts to make it back. At this % it may even kill him outright.

I was under the impression that Zelda would need to use this pretty often vs Mario. The best thing to have when fighting him is a quick attack to put some distance between the both of you, nothing does that better than Zelda's Dsmash.

Of course, if it IS fresh and kills off the initial hit, Mario has to be about 110+ percent.

I havn't fought many Marios. They're a rare breed. Then again so are Zeldas :/

Indeed, which is why we're discussing this. I don't know much about Zelda other than experience vs a few, and you don't know much about Mario. As long as we don't assume or generalize each other's character without hard evidence, we can get a pretty accurate ratio and matchup summary.

 

[Zankoku]

Fireballs are really not much of a problem for Sheik.

 

[-Mars-]

I was under the impression that Zelda would need to use this pretty often vs Mario. The best thing to have when fighting him is a quick attack to put some distance between the both of you, nothing does that better than Zelda's Dsmash.

Meh, I could replace it with dtilt, Naryus on occasion, and bair/nair OoS. It's not really a necessity. I also have usmash on frame 6 for up close punishment.

 

[Blackbelt]

I love fighting Sheiks. They're needles are reflectable (and fairly easily) and close range, with the exception of that Ftilt lock, you'll be doing more damage.

Honestly, Sheik has never given much problems.


Zelda....well, I lack Zelda experience.

 

[Judge Judy]

The way things are looking right now in this match-up is 50:50/55:45 Mario's favor against Sheik and 50:50/55:45 in Zelda's favor against Zelda.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm not seeing the disadvantage at all against Zelda.

Weird how you guys are saying 60:40 Mario against Shiek. I think it's much more even.

 

[Judge Judy]

I'm not seeing the disadvantage at all against Zelda.

IDK, Zelda's priority is definetly a chore to get around, however, she's not too hard to gimp and her gimping options aren't all that great either. Also, FIHL hasn't been mentioned too much either, and FIHL definetly can turn the tables in this match-up. From what you guys have discussed it sounds like people are leaning more towards Mario going even to a slightly in Mario's advantage and vice-versa for Zelda, but IDK.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Mario is slightly disadvantaged to both Sheik and Zelda personally. Only slightly. I find that Mario has to be particularly patient when playing against these characters and that there is very little that comes easily persay.

I mean he definitely has tools that can give him the edge in this matchup, but so do Sheik and Zelda against him. And the thing is both of them specialize in something, and they do it better than Mario (partly due to a range advantage).

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario definitely does not have a disadvantage on either characters.

Shiek has a similar way of fighting to Mario. Shiek has a better ground game, but really can't combo Mario well on the ground due to the lack of an F-tilt lock, but she can still start up combos with it. However plenty of her start-up attacks can be stopped with Up-B. Mario is the same way. Besides the U-tilt lock, his attacks can be stopped with Shiek's quick attacks. So the majority of this battle with be Mario and Shiek trading hits with each other. Mario has more reliable ways of KOing Shiek I believe. Can anyone confirm if Shiek has a grab release -> U-Smash on him?

What makes this the most interesting is off-stage application. Mario honestly does have a better edgeguard game than Shiek does by a longshot. Recovering low is bad for Shiek due to fireballs, FLUDD, and obviously the cape. The start-up on her Up-B can be punished with just about anything, even a spike. Her saving grace here however is her tether, which gives her a mix of options that can be used. Obviously Mario will be trying to edgehog Shiek to stop the tether, which gives Shiek opportunities to use her Up-B safely. Nonetheless though, her recovery is in danger when fighting Mario.

Shiek's edgeguarding can't be ignored though. She has F-air (great gimp tool), needles, and B-air. Needles, if not reflected by Mario, can be used to hinder his recovery can give Shiek the time needed to gimp him. F-air just outright destroys any hope of getting back if Mario used his 2nd jump (which means don't use it early), and B-air being a KO move should be noted. While she doesn't have as much options they're pretty effective.

Shiek and Mario is pretty much a battle of who can keep the pressure more. 50:50 or 55:45 Mario due to the fact that his edgeguarding and defensive abilities are well-noted, but I'd be fine with 50:50.

Zelda is bleh. She's a ground character with a pretty bad aerial game, but with a ton of KO power. She can't force an approach with Din's fire while Mario can with fireballs and FLUDD. She's easily comboed due to the fact she has no GTFO move due to Mario's aerial speed and quick attacks, and she is quite easy to edgeguard (Capeing her Up-B makes me lol). Once Mario is within range she's more or less wrecked.

What stops that however is Zelda's brickwalls. She has a reflector, and crazy-priority hitboxes that lingers for a very long time. This makes approaching very hard for Mario if Zelda stays defensive. U-Smash is freaken ridiculous and F-Smash... hell, even her jab stops Mario's ground approaches. So half of this battle is getting inside... if Mario had to approach.

Remember that I said Mario can force an approach with effective use of Fireball camping and FLUDD. Zelda's long-range game is not good and even if she does reflect the fireballs that doesn't stop Mario from using them more. FLUDD is icing the cake as if she isn't careful it can leave Zelda quite open for attack, especially if she happens to get pushed off stage and she has to get back on.

So no, Mario really shouldn't be having a hard time with Zelda as long as the player doesn't try to constantly approach and be patient. Fireballs/FLUDD/Cape > Din's Fire/Naryu's Love. Getting within range shouldn't be hard at all with that method, especially since Zelda's speed is like taking a pissing contest. 60:40 Mario.

 

[KirinBlaze]

I've never really had a problem with Shiek and I've played some very good ones. Like Hero said, Shiek's recovery isn't that amazing. Tether or not if you get her off far enough she doesn't have the range to make it back with her UpB after being hit with the FLUDD or just play edge hogging. She has incredible gimping abilities which does scare Mario off stage but Mario just has more options in the edgeguarding game. She's easy to combo with Utilts, she doesn't have the disjointed hitbox on her Fsmash as she did with Zelda so it's easier to space and approach against her and she defenitly cannot kill Mario as quickly as Zelda can. You can be much more aggressive against Shiek then you can Zelda. Shiek's grab range is a bit odd and much better then Mario's and she definetly has those GTFO moves in the air that Hero was talking about thanks to her quick aerials. Both characters have an equal chance to combo one another, like Hero said, this is a match up of hit for hit and Mario has the edge in that his last hit can KO alot better then Shiek's.

Zelda however, is a bit more challengeing. She has a projectile she can direct although it's made useless with Mario's cape since when he capes it he take no damage at all from it but the chances of doing this prefectly every time isn't exactly a guarentee. Her Nayru and Downsmash make it difficult to get close to her and can stop our camping game and I find it hard to space and approach her with that Fsmash and Usmash she has, althought DI'able that doesn't make them any less annoying when trying to approach. She destroys Mario on the ground. However, once Mario gets her in the air it's a whole new game where Mario is clearly the victor. Her recovery is also alot better then Shiek's in range but is still pretty easy to gimp with FLUDD and cape. Her teleport ledge cancel is also VERY nasty and a great edge hogging tool. If you play away from any good Zelda near ledges they will take advantage of that with her Teleport Cancel>Fair and hurt you. Mario's recovery also isn't the greatest so the ledge cancel hogging is a very viable option to gimp us. If timed correctly a run off ledge piviot Nayru can also lead to epic stage spikes. Mario has the slight edge here in that Zelda is a little more helpless when returning to the stage then Mario is and is alot more punishable is she misses above the ledge.

I'd say the Shiek match up could be 55:45 in Mario's favor or 50:50.
The Zelda match up I can see as 45:55 in Zelda's favor or 55:45 in Mario's favor depending on you choose to approach the match up.

 

[Matador]

Post on Mario vs Shiek and Mario vs Zelda

I agree with this for the most part. I definitely think Mario vs Shiek is dead even, and that Zelda may be even or small adv to Mario.

It's seriously pretty easy to approach, combo, and kill Zelda. She has options to keep Mario out, and could very well consistently do it, but Mario could just as easily get inside consistently.

 

[Tezmata]

Sheik and Mario is a pretty even match. Neither has anything that will put the other in any real advantageous position. 50:50

Zelda is another story. I main Zelda and I'm willing to admit she has a very slight disadvantage in the matchup because Mario is one of the few characters (if not the only) that can destroy Farore's usefulness as a recovery move. Probably 55:45 Mario.

 

[Fieryblast]

From a Zelda user's viewpoint:

Pros:
- Zelda has a better projectile for use at a distance-- it does more damage and has ample maneuverability. Mario may use a side special to avoid it, but at the very least it gives you some control over his positioning.
- Zelda has a better ground game (her dtilt extends far and can lock or set up a combo, her dsmash is fast and powerful, and her other smashes have greater range than Mario).

Cons:
- Mario has a projectile that is better to use as an approach. On the subject of approaches, he actually has them... which I guess is a plus over Zelda.
- Mario has an advantage in the air-- Zelda has powerful aerial moves but they are too conditional (and predictable) to be used constantly without being punished. Mario is also small enough such that Zelda's bair and fair will be somewhat hard to land.

As for the cape being used as a means of screwing up Farore's Wind... are you sure? I've faced a pretty good amount of Mario users, though I don't recall the cape being able to screw that up. I don't think it would do much good; Zelda wouldn't run in to the cape and reverse her direction mid-teleport... she'd just appear wherever she wanted to teleport. I suppose it MAY be possible to screw it up if the Mario user manages slap the Zelda with it JUST before she teleports... but unless he can get close enough to do that I presume she'd be safe. I could be wrong, but that has never been an issue for me. Overall I'd say Zelda has an advantage, but that might just be some bias on my part.

 

[Matt07]

I have a question regarding Zelda's recovery.

Zelda has very poor movement after she used her up B like if you shoot uncharged FLUUD (use it right away) and she's trying to aim the edge, and she was right before it, she'll miss right?

If so, Zelda mains should always aim for the ledge when recovering or if they go to high we can FLUUD them.

 

[Fieryblast]

I'm pretty sure Zelda could reflect the water... as it is a projectile. I actually never had the opportunity to try it though, as no Mario I've played against ever bothered to use it like that on me. If I saw a Mario charging up his FLUDD at some point in the match, I'd have no doubt that he'd try to use it in a situation like that. Nayru's love would slow her fall as well, allowing her to recover from below rather easily. Zelda can recover to the ledge directly from above, to the side, or below-- from quite a number of angles, really. There is some risk of being edge-hogged, but that is the case for most recoveries-- I find Zelda's recovery to be one of the safer options. In short, unless the Zelda makes a mistake, I don't think you can gimp her recovery like that... at least not consistently.

 

[Tezmata]

Fieryblast: In regards to your earlier post, Mario's F-smash outranges Zelda's if I remember correctly.

 

[RoyalBlood]

I think FLUDD pushes Zelda up if she DIs up after Farore's Wind >:l

 

[HeroMystic]

There is no DI in FLUDD. It simply pushes back.

FLUDD isn't going to gimp Zelda alone, but combined with all the other options Mario has, it makes gimping a lot easier.

Zelda's recovery is definitely less safe than Shiek's.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Hmmm...I was sure FLUDD pushed Zelda up
I'll have to test ^_^

But thanks for the answer

 

[Matador]

Hmmm...I was sure FLUDD pushed Zelda up
I'll have to test ^_^

But thanks for the answer

It does, just a bit. In actuality, it pushes everyone up and back; even moreso if you're floaty like Zelda. I don't think it has anything to do with DI though, just Fludd's mechanics.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

Strangely enough, off of past occurances only. (I don't play against mazy Zeldas)

That actually sounds about right. As if Fludd gives her recovery an extra boost whatever direction she DI's in.. Am not positive though.

 

[Judge Judy]

Strangely enough, off of past occurances only. (I don't play against mazy Zeldas)

That actually sounds about right. As if Fludd gives her recovery an extra boost whatever direction she DI's in.. Am not positive though.

If your opponent is in a neutral state or falling, the FLUDD will just push them back horizontally and/or slightly up depending on your opponent's momentum and how you hit them. If you opponent is moving upwards, the FLUDD has some wierd physics like the cape and causes them to move noticebly upward in an ackward fashion. Anyway, as far as Zelda's recovery, the FLUDD can still mess up her recovery through altering her trajectory slightly by htting her with the FLUDD during startup.

 

[Judge Judy]

As for the cape being used as a means of screwing up Farore's Wind... are you sure? I've faced a pretty good amount of Mario users, though I don't recall the cape being able to screw that up. I don't think it would do much good; Zelda wouldn't run in to the cape and reverse her direction mid-teleport... she'd just appear wherever she wanted to teleport. I suppose it MAY be possible to screw it up if the Mario user manages slap the Zelda with it JUST before she teleports... but unless he can get close enough to do that I presume she'd be safe. I could be wrong, but that has never been an issue for me. Overall I'd say Zelda has an advantage, but that might just be some bias on my part.

If Mario capes Zelda during her Up B's startup any direction she goes will be reversed and Zelda would only have enough time to change directions early during startup; if Zelda is caped even a few frames after her Up B's startup, she can't change directions.

I'm pretty sure Zelda could reflect the water... as it is a projectile. I actually never had the opportunity to try it though, as no Mario I've played against ever bothered to use it like that on me. If I saw a Mario charging up his FLUDD at some point in the match, I'd have no doubt that he'd try to use it in a situation like that. Nayru's love would slow her fall as well, allowing her to recover from below rather easily. Zelda can recover to the ledge directly from above, to the side, or below-- from quite a number of angles, really. There is some risk of being edge-hogged, but that is the case for most recoveries-- I find Zelda's recovery to be one of the safer options. In short, unless the Zelda makes a mistake, I don't think you can gimp her recovery like that... at least not consistently.

FLUDD cannot be reflected and its pushback can only be partially negated.


Edit: double post

 

[MBlaze]

Might be 50:50

 

[Matador]

Yeah, unless Shiek has some crazy tech that I don't know about, that matchup is definitely 50:50. No one has mentioned the chain, which is good at keeping Mario out. I'm honestly not THAT informed about it, and know that it can get really technical; I just know that when it's out, I have to get back and fireball unless I'm already inside and have enough time to jab or Dsmash. Even with that in the equation, however, it's definitely an even match.

I think the real problem is Zelda/Shiek. I'm thinking 45:55 their adv, because of how easy it is to land a killing blow on Mario as Zelda at 100+. I may be wrong; I barely fight anyone who uses both well. It's usually Shiek being the great one and Zelda struggling to land the kills.

Just keep in mind that Mario's not slow either when you go to transform, make sure he's out, lol

 

[HeroMystic]

Zelda/Shiek... I dunno, lol. I'm thinking that one's an even too due to the fact that if Shiek is out first, then she and Mario will be trading hits blow-for-blow. If she transforms into Zelda, we just switch styles and wait for an opportunity to get her off-stage, where we more or less have a superior advantage especially if she's 100+ as well.

Once you think about it... yeah, it still feels like a dead even.

 

[PKNintendo]

Don't have time to test but... Does fludd stop Din's fire? While it ignites too?

 

[Judge Judy]

Don't have time to test but... Does fludd stop Din's fire? While it ignites too?

As far as the projectile, if Zelda ignites it, yes; you can't hit the projectile until Zelda ignites it.

Edit: Post 999, inverse devil number

 

[Takeshi245]

A U-smash that comes out fast, stays out for a long time, and beats all your aerials, an annoying d-tilt, a decent f-tilt, powerful smash attacks and powerful aerials with which a majority of them require spacing, she's quite the threat. However, Mario can juggle her well, can deal with her Din's Fire easily with cape and nair, can KO her around 100% with F-smash if it hits the sweetspot, and Mario can edgeguard her better than Zelda can edgeguard Mario due to FLUDD and cape. Mario has fireballs to create an opening, but Zelda can use her B move to reflect it back. However, if Mario does use fireball at a far enough distance and hone in on Zelda, he can punish her due to lag. Overall, I think this match-up should go 6.5-3.5 Zelda. I wouldn't mind 6-4, either.

Edit: Judge Judy's mention of FIHL has influenced me to change from 6.5-3.5 to 6-4 Zelda.

 

[Judge Judy]

One thing I'd like to note is that FIHL works wonders on Zelda and we've barely mentioned that at all.

 

[Takeshi245]

One thing I'd like to note is that FIHL works wonders on Zelda and we've barely mentioned that at all.

Dang. If that's the case, I change my mind. 6.5-3.5 to 6-4 Zelda to me, then.

 

[Judge Judy]

Dang. If that's the case, I change my mind. 6.5-3.5 to 6-4 to me, then.

In who's favor?

PS: If you're being sarcastic at all I can't tell...

 

[Matt07]

One thing I'd like to note is that FIHL works wonders on Zelda and we've barely mentioned that at all.

True, but Judge I don't think Zelda's main approach is via air, at least when I fight Zelda's most of the time they're always on the ground. But it's nice to know that FLUUD can lag her badly. Is it as bad as Game and Watch's lag?

Grats on 1k posts Judge.

 

[Judge Judy]

True, but Judge I don't Zelda's main approach is via air, at least when I fight Zelda's most of the time they're always on the ground. But it's nice to know that FLUUD can lag her badly. Is it as bad as Game and Watch's lag?

You can use FIHL on her ground game too, and even though you can't directly follow-up, it badly hurts her spacing.

 

[Takeshi245]

In who's favor?

PS: If you're being sarcastic at all I can't tell...

I meant Zelda. I added her name to make it clearer. And I'm being serious. 6-4 Zelda.