Matchup CHART - Redicussion

[Krystedez]

Hey folks.

Remember this?



-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

Pit has probably the best matchup spread we could have given him at the time. He's not looking too shabby.

But what did we do wrong? What did other character panels do wrong? Better than what is wrong, what has CHANGED?

That's where this thread comes in. I need two things from people:

1.) Your general opinion on which matchups need the MOST changed, up or down (up to a maximum of 5). PLEASE FOR THE SAKE OF BETTER REDISCUSSION, ALWAYS PUT YOUR OPINION MK, WHETHER HE SHOULD STAY OR MOVE. THANK YOU.

2.) Who you believe is our most active contributer(s) to the community and is capable of offering their knowledge

So for instance, if I was some Pit player that plays Wolf, Dedede, and Meta Knight a lot, and play Wario and Snake a bit too, and I have a strong opinion on their positions for the list... AND I had some favorite pits in mind , this is how I would do it.

1.)
stay -2
0
0
-1
0

2.)

Kool-aid, Yass, Esca, and Kira in that order.

If you answer number 2, be serious. I don't want someone who does wifi only or stays in their own region all the time, and I don't want players who can't at least place away from the bottom at tournaments. High level players are a must for this, even if they are scarce, maybe you guys know something I don't.

Any high level players that I see that are representing Pit well/consistently at least in their region, have decent placement, and attempt to go outside their region, should be given some recognition.

I'm doing this because people like Snopy aren't recognized enough nor are their opinions given enough.

Thank you for your time!

 

[Kuro~]

I vote PTZR,Koolaid, Luckay4lyphe, and R@vyn/esca. Those are so huge. like if u can get them 4 i'd be satisfied.

I'd say me but i don't think i deserve it yet.


changes imo

Absolutes)Snake at 0. Wolf at 0. D3 at 0. Mario at -2.

In my personal opinion) Wario at -1.

I'd put priority on Koolaid and R@vyn. Then followed by PTZR or L4L

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

im hurt kuro.

i would recomend Snopy (absolute #1 need to get ahold of, the rest any order), esca (ill try to get ahold of him for ya krys), koolaid, R@vyn, and not to sound vain or anything but if yall are gonna discuss the MUs i list below than myself. i really have stepped up my game and have yet to place last at any of my tournies out here. but if you can't vote yourself, than L4L.

snake (0) (goes even with FOGO, did okay against razer)

MK (-3) (play sync and p4 all the time, and they are houston PR that i do well against)

falco (0) (i've only been playing gnes's falco out here, but i have good falco experiance from norcal too)

wolf (0) (play ojih and some other wolf's, also has norcal experiance)

TL (-1) (shadow1pj, the jerm)

i can't prove the last one but i just want to know if anyone else agrees. vv

ICs (0 or +1 us, can't prove atm but when vinnie moves here soon ill prove it)

 

[Kuro~]

im hurt kuro.

i would recomend Snopy (absolute #1 need to get ahold of, the rest any order), esca (ill try to get ahold of him for ya krys), koolaid, R@vyn, and not to sound vain or anything but if yall are gonna discuss the MUs i list below than myself. i really have stepped up my game and have yet to place last at any of my tournies out here. but if you can't vote yourself, than L4L.

snake (0) (goes even with FOGO, did okay against razer)

MK (-3) (play sync and p4 all the time, and they are houston PR that i do well against)

falco (0) (i've only been playing gnes's falco out here, but i have good falco experiance from norcal too)

wolf (0) (play ojih and some other wolf's, also has norcal experiance)

TL (-1) (shadow1pj, the jerm)

i can't prove the last one but i just want to know if anyone else agrees. vv

ICs (0 or +1 us, can't prove atm but when vinnie moves here soon ill prove it)

Neither of us have an OoR background.

Which is why i didn't say either of us.

And all 4 of the ppl above have been using pit wayyyyyy longer than us combined.

Eh i don't agree w/toonlink. I COULD see mk being -3. I still don't agree with it at all.

I can't see IC being +1.

 

[Krystedez]

Just for your information,

Vex and R@vyn are already in the backroom They're totally awesomealready

So far no one has included Kira, even though he does mad work with Pit and went to Genesis? Wait, where does Kira live?

And what has Snopy done so far in his brawl career, I see his name occasionally, but im just asking.

 

[Kuro~]

Oh ok. Haha. In that case...

Ptzr,l4l, koolaid, or esca.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

changes I'd make

(-3)
(-1)
(0)
(1) not sure why we have +2 on him
(2)

 

[Kuro~]

Cuz we can safely attack luigi and we can camp him hard =/

Dair/fair/jab/ftilt/dtilt raaape cuz his sliding.

Why do you think we're plus 2 on ike?

 

[Krystedez]

It's not plus 2 I can garuntee that...

I've played Renegade's ike, and he's vet, imagine if I played san's ike. I get wrecked like a small white saltine.

Mario and Pt make more sense to put in +2 category though.

EDIT: lol Im sorry guys Im being biased pullin that bizness in here, I really do think we could wreck Ike if we only had more safer approaches to his overall better range. It's not that easy to gimp him either as you'd think because of his weight keeping him on stage pretty well.

 

[Krystedez]

Oh I see, Kira lives in SOcal now, no wonder he was able to go to G2. He lived in Arizona a while ago. Does he rep at any other OoR places? If only I could get a hold of him..

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

I played Beserker Swordsman, who practices with San a lot. He's really good, but I learned that if we never approach ike can't touch us. He'll try to get in and then get punished for doing so, plus his recovery is easy to gimp with mirror shield or edgehog if they do it backwards so we can't mirror shield.

San could be an exception because players like him find ways around other players.

 

[Kuro~]

I've played Ryo several times w/my pit. And it just doesn't seem lopsided enough to call it -2.

 

[KiraFlax]

Lol its funny, no one contacted me for this. This is just one of my annual monthly visits.
just so you guys know, I play every character except
But I only use Pit and Rob for tournies because they are my best.
Im very surprised by this list. since i dont really go online at all to learn pit tricks or pit match ups, I have my own style of pit and list that i have in my head that is based on just how i do against the characters. so ill just show you my personal list.



marth+ gw+ peach+ rob- zero suit samus- pikachu- toon link- marth+ ness- sheik- ice climbers+ snake+ zelda- mario- luigi- diddy-

-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:


Maybe we can help each other because there is a lot i see (such as fox and toonlink) that you guys do so well against and i do terribly against them. And then theres some I do very well against that you guys dont seem to do so well with.

Also I know I havent been coming on a whole lot and im hard to get in contact with. so............. too bad.

jk my facebook is http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001455493078&v=info but im barely on there either so yea too bad. ill try to be on more often.

 

[Kuro~]

very very interesting. I'll comment later after this dumb mandatory alcohol course.

 

[Krystedez]

Thanks for gracing us with your presence.

I think your list primarily is effected by your super quick and aggro play, with some characters you learn their habits, with others you're forced to play basic campy pit and you dont seem to do your best as simple pit.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Neither of us have an OoR background.

Which is why i didn't say either of us.

And all 4 of the ppl above have been using pit wayyyyyy longer than us combined.

Eh i don't agree w/toonlink. I COULD see mk being -3. I still don't agree with it at all.

I can't see IC being +1.

um. im from norcal where i went to WGF4, and im now in texas where i went to whobo3. but no i'd like to revise my list a bit. i would probably be way to busy to do this thing consistent anyways.

still snopy #1, then esca, kiraflax, koolaid, and my main man l4l

the only thing i would add for MUs is Wario (-1).


edit:
@krys


every time snopy places his results in the tournament thread, i've never seen him place low ever and he usually places in the top 10-20 with pit consistently at nationals and regionals. i don't know of any other pits that can say that except for kira and koolaid and even then at nationals he has a top 10 placing or 2. seems like a top level pit main that we just don't even acknowledge

 

[Suyon]

Don't know if any information I have will be useful lol. But I did use to place top 8 consistently till I stopped going to tournaments. I go back and not doing well anymore. Yay MW lol.

For the most part I believe most MUs are even or disadvantage for . If you don't know the MU it'll most likely be a disadvantage for the player such as facing a or . can stay at the top.
The Advantage would be
:ganon:, , , , , , , , , and would be things Pit has an advantage of.
The disadvantage would be.
, , , , , and .
The rest would be even or disadvantage if you don't know what to do.

Sorry if I made this complicated. Just throwing out my idea there. Also don't know how to do those icons yay.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Enclose the characters names between colons and no caps so it: wont work, but will

 

[Damix91]

I think Toon Link is definitely in their favour. Everyone underrates his CQC.

 

[Krystedez]

I 3-stocked the person twice in decent wifi (lag spikes toward end) that beat Kira in bracket at G2... so I think Kira and a few of you overrate that matchup... That TL actually knows the matchup as well, I really don't get to play it often, and I know for a fact that neither character excels more than the other enough that it makes it tip in either favor.

It's not dead even. It's even and then shifts based on the gameplay of either player and the counterpicks. TL excels at BF imo while Pit works great at FD and even SV but SV is the most even ground. Go to places like Lylat and Pit slumps, while going to places like Brinstar and RC, or even Pictochat and Frigate makes it easier on Pit.

TL has great CQC but gets outranged by our own at times. That's what makes it difficult for TL to begin a combo.

 

[Nike.]

Oh snap, I didn't know we could go so public about this O_o

 

[Krystedez]

the mu discussion we do during the discussion IN the BR can not be thrown around, is all I'm understanding. I havent made public any discussion we did during those phases, and still will not during the next iteration.

If I made direct quotes or said "well so and so was a horrible panel leader for x character, he didnt know what he was talkin about" that's crossing the line from what I know ^^; If I am though, let me know.

EDIT: Sorry, you're right, I think I'm pressing the lines here a bit. I think it's fine though,it's just really hard to find good Pits and I want to make sure the best pits know that they're recognized

 

[Starwave]

Ooh i'm definitely keeping my eye on this thread. As a rookie Pit main i'm absolutely enamored with his matchups (they're so good for a mid tier character!!!) and i'd love to see how they change.

 

[Snopy]

Someone sent me a PM and asked me to contribute. Thanks for your faith in me. I don't know how much the european scene is comparable to the US, but I will try my best anyway. Besides I'm also using G&W especially in really bad MUs (f.e. Wario) or underrated MUs (f.e. Ness). Tough I'm still a Pit Main at heart.


-2,5

-2

-1

-0,5

0 /

+1

+2

+3

- I've put MK in his own section because there is a small gap between him and the rest
- I actually considerd to put Snake to even
- I don't think gnw/Pit and Marth/Pit is that bad for pit
- I still think the MU against Diddy, Falco and Pika is slightly in their favour but it also depends on the stages (rule)
- The first half of the even MUs are harder and could also be slightly in their favour. The second half is easier and could also be slightly in our favour.
- I switched some underrated characters to even f.e. Shiek or Ness. I don't think we have a great advantage over them. Shiek is a lot more popular in Europe then she's in the US.

/ all imo

 

[Krystedez]

Thanks Snopy for your contribution.

 

[MVD]

Yall are leaving out Fyre as a top pit guys like legit, snake is even leave it like that

 

[Kuro~]

Snake is def. even. No ifs ands or buts

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

snake is even. it only switches up due to certain stages (snake ***** on brinstar, we **** on delphino. im not saying wither gets ***** in the MU, but these are the main stages i feel sway the pit/snake mu)

 

[MVD]

Well brinstar is banned at apex so no worries haha

 

[Krystedez]

Delphino omg that must be so fun <3 Imma try that next time I face a Snake (watch out Razr :D )

 

[KiraFlax]

i seriously think vs. is +2. the strategy i use is when on neutral position Nair to utilt is way. If he is trying to grab it will go through and if hes just shielding it ussually always shield pokes. after that he will be in the air and go ahead and wait for his landing or strike him in the air for mix up. Punish the landng or let him land and repeat. Also any other multi hit move on ddd is very effective. and then we have the chain grab to 60%. I feel the match up is easier than gaining wieght by eating.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

finally another pit who understands that we HARD COUNTER ddd in every way! not to mention we kill him early than most characters in the game because bair is sooooooooo easy to land, not to mention footstool ***** his recovery and pit is the best footstool usage character in the game imo. i mean how many character's can spike them with windbox oof, smash and grab and stuff out of footstool with wing cancel, wing refresh is a guarenteed footstool with a wind box at all times, it's like damn.

but ya also on DDD, our jab destroys his soul. like kira said, multi-hit moves beat DDD, and pit has probably the most multi-hit moves. hell glide attack isn't even that hard to land because you can hit dees and doos and delay the hitbox.

 

[Krystedez]

I wish I knew how to fight Dedede up close, I can't beat him with Wario or Pit. At least, from my experience, it feels like the matchup is even, but I just know how to do it. I need someone to train me, and just watch me play it.

I feel like if you arrow camp Dedede it does no good... He can perfect shield AND he has the best spotdodge to avoid it...

Glairing Dedede honestly is asking to be grabbed, but I guess if you used it less predictably it'd land into lagless utilt or safely behind his shield at the very least.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

You don't fight ddd close range unless you want to get grabbed.

 

[Coffee™]

i seriously think vs. is +2. the strategy i use is when on neutral position Nair to utilt is way. If he is trying to grab it will go through and if hes just shielding it ussually always shield pokes. after that he will be in the air and go ahead and wait for his landing or strike him in the air for mix up. Punish the landng or let him land and repeat. Also any other multi hit move on ddd is very effective. and then we have the chain grab to 60%. I feel the match up is easier than gaining wieght by eating.

I agree in that I think it's +2 but idk about that strategy because once D3 times it correctly he can just buffer a grab right after the Nair before you can uptilt.

I wish I knew how to fight Dedede up close,

You don't. It's just asking for trouble.

I feel like if you arrow camp Dedede it does no good... He can perfect shield AND he has the best spotdodge to avoid it...

This goes for like any character. Just learn to bait his shield or spotdodges more before you fire the arrows. Also the arrows are more for forcing D3 into approaching Pit's prefered range, than just simply camping him.

 

[Krystedez]

I don't get it then.

Everyone says your gon' get ***** if you fight close range.

Yet everyone agrees with Kira that we hard counter him (which +2 isn't a hard counter btw, it's good, but not like 70-30)...while Kira fights with close-range tactics and hardly any camping (I've seen you fight Kira :X)

Seriously... this matchup is so stupid. How do you just "bait" his spot dodges, you can't hit him out of it, you literally get what 2 frames to hit him with an arrow if he is constantly spot dodging at a distance. Anything you do to punish it will get you hurt unless you use something you can't follow up with like Forward B.

Grrrr hate this matchup.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

hold up. we body DDD up close. jab and AR, dtilt and utilt. those all body DDD's ground game. seriously jab will either get him away, get us a grab, or destroy his shield and him (this also applies to AR near the edge). utilt combos into itself for a while unless they jump, which leads to our uair. dtilt, enough said.

if he grabs us, SO WHAT? unless he does a legit perfect buffered down to the SINGLE FRAME, mashing WOI is unpunishable and stops him from CG-ing us and from there we can just cancel it on the ground. we can also buffer sidestep to avoid his CG. oh ya, and DDD is like the only character where dtilt spike is a legit threat because of his lackluster on the ledge game. for reals

 

[Krystedez]

If Dedede shields jab number 2 I think his grab comes out one frame faster than our third jab does or infinite... thus, grabbed...

angel ring is asking for punishment at the end of it, or just pushes them away momentarily, doesn't follow into anything.

utilt barely hits at all and only if your inside of his shield. I think utilt is useful but not "body"ing.

Dtilt is good spacing, but it's not going to help us because of ending lag.

If he chain grabs he can mix up CG's and read your WoI attempts or just throw you somewhere else. His CG isn't that hard to perfect, Atomsk and Fizzle both had no trouble keeping me in it even with me mashing WoI.

I agree with dtilt spike.

I think this matchup needs more fleshed out, for my sake as a wario/pit main. I think if it doesn't, and/or I don't get some coaching from someone or just get to play more, I'm literally going to counter olimar or something just for the fat *******. It's either that or go back to learning wario v dedede, and then I'm just back at square one lol

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

If Dedede shields jab number 2 I think his grab comes out one frame faster than our third jab does or infinite... thus, grabbed...

All have to do is hold jab. he has to time the grab within 1 frame which means it has to be perfectly buffered

angel ring is asking for punishment at the end of it, or just pushes them away momentarily, doesn't follow into anything.

I said AR him to THE LEDGE, you know to put him off stage and eat jumps. i don't think you saw where i said edge because i know you normally would have gotten it

utilt barely hits at all and only if your inside of his shield. I think utilt is useful but not "body"ing.

sliding utilt, landing into a utilt, glide slide into utilt, jab>utilt because he's so fat that actually works, ledge hop>airdodge>utilt. if any of these are landed on DDD early on, you can juggle with utilt/usmash or jump with nair or uair.

Dtilt is good spacing, but it's not going to help us because of ending lag.

getting him in the air is good. also at kill percent (albeit hard to get) if you hit him while he is grounded with dtilt spike, it combos into bair.

If he chain grabs he can mix up CG's and read your WoI attempts or just throw you somewhere else. His CG isn't that hard to perfect, Atomsk and Fizzle both had no trouble keeping me in it even with me mashing WoI.

mix it up with sidestep. it also works sometimes

I agree with dtilt spike.

I think this matchup needs more fleshed out, for my sake as a wario/pit main. I think if it doesn't, and/or I don't get some coaching from someone or just get to play more, I'm literally going to counter olimar or something just for the fat *******. It's either that or go back to learning wario v dedede, and then I'm just back at square one lol

i replied in red

edit:

pit thrives off of player mistake, and all of his punishes set up damn good positions. in game, pit's attacks are just fast enough to punish any mistake, hell i punish rolls and **** with ftilt on read all the time. dtilt is fast enough and long enough to punish MK's dsmash if you shield and it puts him in our uair zone, which is still very effective. jab is broken. our jab is such a great move because you can just jabbing people to that one spacing and they will use the same approach over and over. you can also hit with a jab, walk forward and start an infinite jab and they will mis-space and get hit. it's just punishes is why we dominate him. that and you can just continue to nair him over and over with ffac.

 

[Krystedez]

Well I'm just getting out played in this case. Perhaps the DEDEDE isn't making mistakes. I actually should have beat coney (oh yea coney, you know d'is!) when I fought him with Wario. Maybe Fizzle and atomsk just outplay me everytime, pit or wario? (sigh)

Well I'm not touching this matchup anymore, it makes me depressed. I'd rather play a MK in bracket every time over a Dedede.