Matchup Chart v3 Metaknight Knight Panel

[Infinitysmash]

Greetings, fellow Batmen! I’m Infinity and will be leading your character’s panel for the BBR Match-Up Chart v3. The thread detailing panel leaders, as well as other various information about the project, can be found here.

The current panelists for this panel are:
Infinity
CT ZeRo
RedHalberd
Havok

[collapse=A little (okay, a lot) about the panel and the panelists]
I know that not many of you will know who I am off the top of your head, but I can assure you that I am a very active representative for Meta Knight in the back room. I've been around since the release of Brawl and been a strong advocate for Meta Kngith remaining legal (I was one of the leaders for the anti-ban debate a couple years back) and I'm the same person who led the panel from the last matchup chart project.

My goal for the panel this time around was to collect a group of people who could present a calm, well thought-out argument for why any matchup should be given a certain rating. I've made sure to approach each panelist with a plan on how I want this to work and I strongly believe that this will be the best panel we've had for our character yet.

Each of the other players on this panel should be well-known to any of you who keep up with competitive play. If you want to know more about them please contact me and I'll be sure to go over their individual accolades in detail for you. Trust me, each of these guys is a top-level player with strong communication skills, a deep knowledge of Meta Knights strategy and capabilities, and results to back up their talent.[/collapse]

If you have any questions or concerns regarding this panel or its activities, feel free to post them in this thread. You may also PM me or Ishieymoro if you would rather speak to one of us privately. Panelist selections for Meta Knight have been finalized at this point and you should start seeing discussions begin in the upcoming weeks.

Thanks for the support guys! (and at least one gal (Hi Kassandra!))
-Infi~

 

[GOofyGV]

I like this panel guys! I do trust you guys that I will not see a 0 with pika for v3 :$

 

[ぱみゅ]

I also have trust in that one group, I have talked with some of them, so I know they know a lot of the game and have plenty of experience.

A solid debating group is very important for the most important character of the game, and I think you nailed it.

Good luck with it.

 

[Orion*]

seems cool to me

plz dont let wario/ddd/diddy mains ****s like +3 our favor

 

[GOofyGV]

lol most character panels will either say it's even or say they get ***** xD

 

[ぱみゅ]

I hate that mentality where everyone thinks MK is their worst MU when it's clearly not.
A lot of DDDs seems to believe that, but I don't hate it as much as I hate Olimar and ICs....

 

[GOofyGV]

some people just need a good john lol

 

[Seagull Joe]

Current version:

0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

Updated in my opinion:

0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

Changes:

from +1 to 0: I think based on the ruleset the match could be considered even. It depends on the stage list the BBR chooses to use for the matchup panel.

from 0 to +1: gets outspaced when is grounded. has a good cg and can kill reliably.

from +2 to +1: can kill really early and he isn't exactly easy to kill.

from +2 to +1: Same as except more gimmicky.

from +2 to +1: Reliable options to beat out everything does. Can harass offstage (Only character that can do this other then ). Solid kill options around 110? off a throw. Suffers from a grab release cg.

 

[BlueXenon]

Im surprised you put ic's at +1 past diddy, fox, marth and olimar.

 

[Player-4]

Im surprised you put ic's at +1 past diddy, fox, marth and olimar.

Pretty sure it's not in any specific order, just +1 in general. Although touching on ICs, I think that's an even MU.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Im surprised you put ic's at +1 past diddy, fox, marth and olimar.

o_O they're in no order of +1.

 

[GOofyGV]

I think that Falco and IC's could be considered even with Japans ruleset but with American ruleset I think MK still has a slight edge.
other then that and Wario every top tier character has is +1 for us.


0: (If the ruleset is the Japanese one)
+1: (?) ( last 2 if the ruleset is not Japanese)
+2: (?) (?)
+3: (?)
+4:

And I have no ide where to put Sonic,Kirby,Ness,Yoshi,Pokemon trainer or Lucas. They are probably all between +2 and +3 but I honestly have no idea

The reason I put ZSS and DK in this twice is because I think they don't do as badly as the characters in the better ratio for us but also don't do as well as the characters in the lower ratio for us.

 

[Nido]

Ness is probably MK's easiest MU as a -1 imo

 

[GOofyGV]

you mean a +1?

 

[Nido]

Oops, my bad, yes a +1 for you

 

[ぱみゅ]

I see ZSS as +1, she still has a lot of tools, and Dsmash>freshBair can kill pretty early.

That said, it will be very interesting if BBR sets which stages we'll have to consider when discussing MUs.

 

[GOofyGV]

I see ZSS as +1, she still has a lot of tools, and Dsmash>freshBair can kill pretty early.

That said, it will be very interesting if BBR sets which stages we'll have to consider when discussing MUs.

Agree 100% with this post.
I think that the stagelist will decide whatever Falco and IC mu will be.

It does also change a lot for IC's,Snake and Wario I think.

 

[Infinitysmash]

I believe we're going to assume an Apex rule set and stage set. The official discussion isn't going to start until after Apex is over and will be largely based on the results of that tournament.

These are the guidelines I'm setting for the internal discussions of the MK panel, this should help everyone in here discuss things along the same lines we are:

• Assume top level play for any matchup discussion. Not perfect-world play, but top level play.
• Use Smashville as the default starter stage; it's the most commonly played stage and generally considered the most 'fair' stage.
• The dynamics of counterpicking prevents us from assuming any specific stage is banned in most matchups, so we'll have to work from personal experience when discussing matchups on counterpick stages.
• Present logical arguments to back up your reasons for any changes; one or two sentences of 'I think it's this because of this' generally is not helpful enough to gauge a full matchup from. (RedHalberd actually used ascii images to describe his point of view of the Diddy Kong matchup during the last set of discussions. I can't even begin to describe how beneficial it was that he did that.)
• Use example scenarios and strategies when possible rather than listing off individual moves, such as 'this move beats this move.' Scenarios and strategies are the most helpful pieces of information for this project.
• If you have something to say about a matchup make sure that your point is clearly stated and easy to understand. There have been too many people who don't use proper spelling and grammar that have caused headaches for panel leaders and I very likely won't consider what you have to say if I can't make sense of it without reading it multiple times. Normally I don't care, but I'm totally repping the Grammar Police for matchup discussions.
• Do your best to keep discussions logical rather than emotional. I'm not going to stop someone from getting impassioned about how they feel about a matchup, but try your best not to let your emotions overrule the logical side of the discussion. Telling me that you think a matchup is bad because you've personally lost it the last few times you've played it is a lot less credible than providing evidence such as results and videos.
• PM me if you have any questions. I don't post often, but I'm on Smashboards a few times a day and I reply pretty promptly.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If Smashville is always the go-to starter, you probably do not know how to Strike. Although, we're MK, and as long as we avoid FD on certain MUs, we'll have advantage anyway...

I'd say Smashville/Battlefield, platforms are very important in many MUs (specially against projectyle/defensive games).

 

[Infinitysmash]

If Smashville is always the go-to starter, you probably do not know how to Strike

While the rest of your post was relatively constructive how does this statement benefit the conversation? Smashville is the most common starter in the game and a majority of games will be played there. I'm not looking to assume the most advantageous stage for us as the starter; I'm looking to assume the most commonly played starter in the game.

Also, as one example - Ally started on Smashville against Denti at Waba. Your statement implies that Ally probably does not know what he's doing. Ally's results, including the game I'm referencing, contradict your statement. This is, of course, only one example but I'm sure I can find plenty more if necessary.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Not to call out on anyone, but I'm pretty sure almost nobody among top players know how to properly Strike.
They may outplay anybody and are able to adapt to most adverse scenarios anyway, but it's still not the "better" way to play.
Within Apex's stagelist, chances are you'll end up playing on Battlefield for certain MUs where you don't want to be on the ground with your opponent (ICs, Snake). For your example though, Ally probably stroke Lylat and FD, and Denti BF and YI (I think WABA had the same 5 starters Apex do?).

My point is that I am not saying you shouldn't play on Smashville (it is not bad by any means), but just assuming you'll always play Smashville is silly.


------------------

Alternatively, you could simply not listen to me when I say anything about stages, I am nothing but a stage debater and take my job way too seriously.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Smashville is the most neutral/fair stage by far. That shouldn't even be discussed.

It's not like that vs characters who can really abuse that. Like MK vs no-projectile chars, good platform campers, such as Snake, or vs someone who could use a nice gimmick to kill you (Like IC's platform cancelling on the platform, and CG'ing you to death). Besides of that, SV is the most 'fair' stage in Brawl.

Bf's platforms are very dramatic to the gameplay. Yoshi's, Lylat and FD are counterpicks. Then everything else is also a counterpick too. (Referring to Apex's current stage list).

Around 95% of the games I played at Apex, counting pools, and bracket games, were played in Smashville for game 1. Except for when I played Lain and Kakera, who both striked/stroked Smashville vs me during the striking phase, and picked BF instead.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Fine, whatever. Ignore me in that case.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Fine, whatever. Ignore me in that case.

Well, we're here to argue, aren't we?

Also, your claim that 'top players' do not strike correctly, is very wrong.

I take A LOT of time during strikes, and always strike correctly in tournament. I also ban very well. I strike/ban based in my match up knowledge, and what my opponent's prefer in that mu/in general. This is so I can counterpick/ban/strike in the most efficient way every time under any circumstance.

In fact, I wrote a guide about counterpicking correctly in tournament: http://clashtournaments.com/?p=240

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yes, you are right, I am wrong. You are the top level players, I'm nobody. Smashville is whatever you said.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Yes, you are right, I am wrong. You are the top level players, I'm nobody. Smashville is whatever you said.

Take in mind I said 'I' at the start of my sentence, . Also, you can't generalize since you don't know everyone, or have seen everything.

 

[Player-4]

Yes, you are right, I am wrong. You are the top level players, I'm nobody. Smashville is whatever you said.

Stop acting like a child >.>

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yes, I will, sorry for causing a mess for going against majority.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I ban smashville just to be a poopface.

 

[GOofyGV]

SV or BF is most fair stage imo

 

[TSM ZeRo]

SV or BF is most fair stage imo

Compared to Yoshi's, Lylat, and FD, yes. (APEX 2013's neutrals)

However, SV is more fair than Battlefield due to the factor that platforms affect gameplay too much. Also, no platform affects too much aswell. But Smashville is a flat stage, and a platform stage at the same time, due to the movile properties of the stage's platform. That's why I consider it to be the 'most fair stage' (balance-wise) in the game when a character that can abuse the platform isn't present, such as Meta Knight (Easier air-camping) or IC's (Because you're not safe on top of the platform due to the IC's being able to platform cancel and grab you).

 

[ぱみゅ]

'fairness' is subjective, though.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I like the SV platform because its the same height as MKs FH so you can always hop on it and not even have to platform cancel.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

'fairness' is subjective, though.

Who cares if it's 'subjetctive' or not. Does it even matter? Beyond from what I said, there isn't really anything 'notable' to mention about the topic.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Smashville is such a dumb stage, but people simply like it way too much for whatever reason. A lot of the times is not even optimal, and you are not forced to play on it because of the striking procedure... Which is not bad on its own, but when people actually say they play on it because it's "fair" just make them sound dumb (sorry, but it DOES sound dumb).
It's like someone brags about how well can he/she swim on a pool when there are people that know how to swim on the Ocean, or through the English Channel.
Maybe that's a bad analogy, but derp.

It being the most played stage overall can not be even argued. But being the most fair? What is that even supposed to mean?

Then again, I'm just a silly stage debater.

Now you know why I said "you are right, I am worng, let's forget it and move on"?

 

[Infinitysmash]

Smashville is such a dumb stage, but people simply like it way too much for whatever reason. A lot of the times is not even optimal, and you are not forced to play on it because of the striking procedure... Which is not bad on its own, but when people actually say they play on it because it's "fair" just make them sound dumb (sorry, but it DOES sound dumb).
It's like someone brags about how well can he/she swim on a pool when there are people that know how to swim on the Ocean, or through the English Channel.
Maybe that's a bad analogy, but derp.

It being the most played stage overall can not be even argued. But being the most fair? What is that even supposed to mean?

Then again, I'm just a silly stage debater.

Now you know why I said "you are right, I am worng, let's forget it and move on"?

Is there another stage that you would recommend in it's place as a blanket starter stage? I'm not using Smashville because of any degree of fairness; I'm using Smashville as the starter stage for our discussions simply because it's most likely going to be the starting stage. I even used little quotes saying it's the most 'fair' stage, which shows that I'm essentially implying that I agree with what you've been arguing this whole time.

I'm basing this off of numbers here; not basing it off of theorycrafting. Smashville may not be the most fair stage in the game for each and every matchup, but it is the most commonly played stage in the tournament scene and is therefore the most safe assumption for the starter stage.

I understand that you're a stage debater, but there's no debate to be had here. Unless you can show me where any other stage is more likely to be chosen as the starter stage, and I mean by backing it up with numbers and evidence rather than with theorycrafting, then I won't be changing this.

Your time and efforts would be more valuable if you would adapt to the guidelines I've set and state your reasoning for matchup ratios rather than trying to change my mind about the starter stage; considering how impassioned you've already shown you can be I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about character matchups rather than spending all of this time and effort talking about one single stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yeah, the argument was mostly about semantics lol

I said in my first response (if anybody read it) SV/BF.
There are a lot of times where you would not want to be at even ground against the opponent, in those cases common strikes are FD/SV.

In any case, you are right, it would've been easier if I just didn't comment so vigorously on such a small thing in the first place.

brb, I'm gonna check the Chart and see which MUs I think need to be changed.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Kirby is a +1 IMO.

 

[GOofyGV]

Also Infinity can people who aren't pannel member discuse here or not?

 

[Infinitysmash]

Also Infinity can people who aren't pannel member discuse here or not?

Yes. This thread is here for anyone outside of the panel to offer up discussion. You never know - maybe someone will have some useful input on matchups that the panelists won't think of