Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Pikachu

[KayLo!]

watch out for side taunt: it's broken.

Once again, you know zero about Pikachu.

It's dtaunt, mother****er.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Once again, you know zero about Pikachu.

It's dtaunt, mother****er.

yes yes it is. oops.

I work on the Peach/Sonic assumption in which side taunt is ALWAYS the best

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Bigger problem than Pika's taunts is his Side-b. That move can do anything!

1. It has good range
2. It can punish from far away
3. It works as momentum cancel
4. It can kill if charged
5. It works as a recovery move
6. It offers plenty of mindgame options
7. It has a good damage if charged

Pika could win with that move alone.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Bigger problem than Pika's taunts is his Side-b. That move can do anything!

1. It has good range
2. It can punish from far away
3. It works as momentum cancel
4. It can kill if charged
5. It works as a recovery move
6. It offers plenty of mindgame options
7. It has a good damage if charged

Pika could win with that move alone.

This a joke?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

This a joke?

You better believe it is

 

[mountain_tiger]

This non-serious matchup discussion is being drawn out too much.

BTW, I think we're (mostly) agreed that it's around 45:55 Pika's favour.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This non-serious matchup discussion is being drawn out too much.

BTW, I think we're (mostly) agreed that it's around 45:55 Pika's favour.

I'd have to disagree about it being pika's favor. I don't see how it's pika favor but as long as kaylo is screaming 55:45 pika you guys will agree to that.

This must be dated but it seems as if the pika boards feel as though this match up is in Zelda's favor.....

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218465

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'd have to disagree about it being pika's favor. I don't see how it's pika favor but as long as kaylo is screaming 55:45 pika you guys will agree to that.

This must be dated but it seems as if the pika boards feel as though this match up is in Zelda's favor.....

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218465

Three things:

1) KayLo isn't just screaming 55:45 Pika. She's giving credible evidence for why such a claim can be justified.

2) That thread is eight months old. It's outdated, sorry.

3) It says that Din's Fire is one of the best projectiles in the game. That alone discredits it instantly.

 

[KayLo!]

I'd have to disagree about it being pika's favor. I don't see how it's pika favor but as long as kaylo is screaming 55:45 pika you guys will agree to that.

This must be dated but it seems as if the pika boards feel as though this match up is in Zelda's favor.....

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218465

First of all, that MU discussion is from January. I guarantee if you asked good Pika mains now (which I can do, if you really want me to), they'd say it's slightly in Pikachu's favor.

Also, most Pikas don't know **** about Zelda. Most players, period, don't know **** about Zelda except that she's slow and powerful. A lot of them think Zelda can camp (in general, not particular to this MU) with Din's, lolol.

I never "screamed" 45:55 Pikachu. It's my opinion, and I'm going to state it like everybody else is allowed to. However, I'm confident in my knowledge of this matchup and think that I know it better and more thoroughly than most -- if not all -- of you. I've **** near memorized the frame data for both characters, I co-main both characters, and I've played the matchup back and forth more times than I've played any other MU in the game, both on wifi and offline.

If you really want to argue with that, be my guest, but I know what I'm talking about.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

First of all, that MU discussion is from January. I guarantee if you asked good Pika mains now (which I can do, if you really want me to), they'd say it's slightly in Pikachu's favor.

Also, most Pikas don't know **** about Zelda. Most players, period, don't know **** about Zelda except that she's slow and powerful. A lot of them think Zelda can camp (in general, not particular to this MU) with Din's, lolol.

I never "screamed" 45:55 Pikachu. It's my opinion, and I'm going to state it like everybody else is allowed to. However, I'm confident in my knowledge of this matchup and think that I know it better and more thoroughly than most -- if not all -- of you. I've **** near memorized the frame data for both characters, I co-main both characters, and I've played the matchup back and forth more times than I've played any other MU in the game, both on wifi and offline.

If you really want to argue with that, be my guest, but I know what I'm talking about.

What has changed since then from now? Nothing.

 

[KayLo!]

What has changed since then from now? Nothing.

You OBVIOUSLY know nothing about Pikachu if you're saying that. Pikachu's metagame has changed a lot since the beginning of this year, and Zelda's may not have gone through a major transformation, but she's developed at least some.

Did you even read the thread?!

Mountain already pointed out that they said Din's is a good projectile. THEY OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW ZELDA.

*beats head against a wall*

EDIT:

Zelda's DF is quite possible on of the best projectiles in the game. It can go the entire distance of FD, and then some. She can angle it upwards, downwards, or not at all. They control the timing of the explosion when they let go of the b button. the hitbox of DF is crazy. It carries a normal hitbox, but when it explodes, the full hitbox is never the same. Sometimes it will have a crazy range closer to zelda, sometimes it will be farther away. Basically, what I am trying to get at is that DF is a great projectile.

............................................................

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You OBVIOUSLY know nothing about Pikachu if you're saying that. Pikachu's metagame has changed a lot since the beginning of this year, and Zelda's may not have gone through a major transformation, but she's developed at least some.

Did you even read the thread?!

Mountain already pointed out that they said Din's is a good projectile. THEY OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW ZELDA.

*beats head against a wall*

EDIT:



............................................................

Din's fire is the best projectile in the game. Outside of his misconception about the hit box of din's fire everything else he said about it was accurate. Pika's has gotten a buffered CG and that Uair footstol> QAC lock bull ****. The buffered CG doesn't work on Zelda and footstool combos aren't very viable. But please tell me how much Pika metagame has developed whne all you would need to add to 5ives pika's vid guide is a buffered dthrow CG. Pika is hype.

 

[KayLo!]

*sigh*

....................

*sigh*

Why do I even bother. I feel sorry for you, I really do.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

*sigh*

....................

*sigh*

Why do I even bother. I feel sorry for you, I really do.

How is din's bad?

 

[zeldspazz]

This is getting intense o.o

When it comes down to it (Ive said this before) it's nice to know a number, who really gives a **** about the number. The point is its almost even, is winnable for both characters, and then list what you need to do to win. Lets move on

 

[mountain_tiger]

Now, don't get me wrong, Din's Fire certainly has its uses. But claiming that it's up there with the likes of Snake's grenades and Falco's lasers in terms of usefulness is, frankly laughable.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This is getting intense o.o

When it comes down to it (Ive said this before) it's nice to know a number, who really gives a **** about the number. The point is its almost even, is winnable for both characters, and then list what you need to do to win. Lets move on

Kaylo tripping because her main pikachu is involved she better go back to the pika boards with that non sense.

Now, don't get me wrong, Din's Fire certainly has its uses. But claiming that it's up there with the likes of Snake's grenades and Falco's lasers in terms of usefulness is, frankly laughable.

That's true Snakes nades are really good as are falco's lasers. However, it can't be over stated how good this move is.

 

[mountain_tiger]

That's true Snakes nades are really good as are falco's lasers. However, it can't be over stated how good this move is.

I have six words for you.

Aerials. Clanking. Lag. Punishment. Cannot camp.

 

[KayLo!]

Mountain, at this point, I'd advise you to just not even bother. Hopeless case is hopeless.

I'm switching tactics. If anybody wants to know more details about this MU and to have an intelligent, informed discussion, feel free to PM me, and I'll give you my opinions and answer any questions you might have if I can. I'm not gonna sit here and give good info just to be flamed/trolled by somebody who clearly has no idea what he's talking about..... that's not what I came here for.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I have six words for you.

Aerials. Clanking. Lag. Punishment. Cannot camp.

This is true however, you have to know when to release the move and when not to. Just like you have to know when to use the move. It's certainly not a move that can be used like snake every other jectile in the game however, that doesn't diminish how good the move is.

@kaylo PM sent!

 

[zeldspazz]

Pika

+Better aerial game
+Less predictable recovery
+QAC tricks
+Tjolt applies camp pressure at mid range
+Is ****ing small
+Faster ground movement
-Light weight suseptable to Zelda high power
-Overall worse ground game
-Is outranged



Zelda

+Range on ground moves makes her difficult to KO
+NL can reflect all projectiles
+Can countercamp Pika at long range.
+Floatiness can stop uair juggling at earlier percentages
+High power against Pika's lightweight
+Better ground game overall
+Din's stops Pika's sideb while Pika's recovering
-Has a hard time countering camping at midrange
-Pika's nair is lethal OoS and while recovering
-Gets sorta ***** in the air
-FF fair is a good setup for grab/utilt
-Gets kill easily if Pika can get inside

^Right? This is what I got so far

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Guys guys guys, I thought we already reached an agreement about Din's usefulness/uselessness in the sexy poses thread after arguing about it for months in every ****ing thread ever posted.

No point going through it all over again here.


To get back on topic: I vote 55:45 Pika.

Quickly thought summary about pros and cons:

+ Pika is very light
+ Zelda can deal with QAC rather well
+ Zelda wins with range and ground priority
+ She can sometimes punish skull bash momentum cancel with Din
+ She can reflect thunder
+ Pika's chaingrab doesn't work too well
+ Some of Pika's combos don't work on her
+ Pika has trouble hitting with some of his killing moves (Fsmash sweetspot, thunder)

- Pika kills her early
- It's very hard to hit Pika with LKs, Uair and such moves
- Pika outcamps her
- Pika outspeeds her
- Pika edgeguards better
- Pika is very hard to edgeguard
- Pika has easier time punishing her mistakes than vice versa
- Pika juggles her very well and his air game is much better than hers
- Pika generally has more options in most situations
- Zelda at stock disadvantage is in much worse situation than Pika at stock disadvantage

Edit: zeldspazz ninja'd me with similar post...

 

[zeldspazz]

Get ninja'd <-----Thats like my new favorite smiler

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Guys guys guys, I thought we already reached an agreement about Din's usefulness/uselessness in the sexy poses thread after arguing about it for months in every ****ing thread ever posted.

No point going through it all over again here.


To get back on topic: I vote 55:45 Pika.

Quickly thought summary about pros and cons:

+ Pika is very light
+ Zelda can deal with QAC rather well
+ Zelda wins with range and ground priority
+ She can sometimes punish skull bash momentum cancel with Din
+ She can reflect thunder
+ Pika's chaingrab doesn't work too well
+ Some of Pika's combos don't work on her
+ Pika has trouble hitting with some of his killing moves (Fsmash sweetspot, thunder)

- Pika kills her early
- It's very hard to hit Pika with LKs, Uair and such moves
- Pika outcamps her
- Pika outspeeds her
- Pika edgeguards better
- Pika is very hard to edgeguard
- Pika has easier time punishing her mistakes than vice versa
- Pika juggles her very well and his air game is much better than hers
- Pika generally has more options in most situations
- Zelda at stock disadvantage is in much worse situation than Pika at stock disadvantage

Edit: zeldspazz ninja'd me with similar post...

I don't think Pika kills Zelda early unless she gets a thunder at the top of the stage. I also don't think landing LK or Uair is really a disadvantage. I also disagree about the punishing and the stock disadvantage. Pika's CG doesn't work at all. Usmash and dtilt also hurt pika.

 

[Kataefi]

People (particularly kaylo) please read the OP and highlight anything that could be wrong/sounds too subjective, opiniated etc etc... so that I can change that.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

People (particularly kaylo) please read the OP and highlight anything that could be wrong/sounds too subjective, opiniated etc etc... so that I can change that.

I know you asked for kaylo but pika can follow up after dthrow also with utilt/usmash or uairs. It may be dependent on how you respond but it's still something to be aware off. You can dtilt pika out of QAC and dsmash him also.

 

[Kataefi]

That's cool The OP is open to everyone. I only asked for Kaylo because she mains pika... but any small bits of info are really useful.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's cool The OP is open to everyone. I only asked for Kaylo because she mains pika... but any small bits of info are really useful.

I played mained pika for like a week and used to use him as a back up. Currently the longest character I've been playing is Zelda I picked Wario up about a month ago.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

as for the pika Dthrow to follow ups.

If you buffer nayru's out of it, it'll hit pika and stop any follow ups. . . but, for the love of god don't do it everytime you are Dthrown: nayru's is obscenely punishible when Pika doesn't run into it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

as for the pika Dthrow to follow ups.

If you buffer nayru's out of it, it'll hit pika and stop any follow ups. . . but, for the love of god don't do it everytime you are Dthrown: nayru's is obscenely punishible when Pika doesn't run into it.

LoL as soon as I see dthrow or fthrow I start mashing B.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

can't Zelda just airdodge away? no need to be cute when trying to escape

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

can't Zelda just airdodge away? no need to be cute when trying to escape

no. she can't. She'll land and be vulnerable again. Nayru's works only because it's still active when she hits the ground.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

can't Zelda just airdodge away? no need to be cute when trying to escape

It's not being cute. It's using all your options so you don't get punished. But like Hedgedawg said don't do it to much other wise they will bait the NL and just punish. Or your can be like me and just do it anyways because you're stubborn.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

How is din's bad?

It's not BAD... quit twisting peoples words, man. We just said for you to watch out in bluntly declaring that Din's is the BEST--cuz it has a few weaknesses.

I thought i already said it 3 times before... Din's fire is a 1 hit move and its hitbox can be cancelled by either pikachu's d-air (at almost anytime of its duration), u-air (the instant after Din's fire spark disappears as the hitbox starts to comes out), or b-air (most of its sweetspot areas) without pikachu taking any damage or knockback. Since pikachu can autocancel all of these aerials (and move laterally at the same time), pikachu can either cancel out the attack if space/timed decently or move outside the blast radius of Din's fire. Even if delayed, a pika d-air's duration will still protect pikachu most of the time. If you want another confirmation, try asking what Boss does against Din's fire with the mario bros (n-airs straight though Din's).

***************
Regarding the OP
***************
Oh, most of it is pretty solid. You could put up some more options for Zelda in some of the examples cuz it does sound like pikachu's options are emphasized (not that it bothers me tho ^_^... just pointin' it out).

1) Zelda under a platform actually can still get hit by a wrap-around tjolt on the edges of platforms (because of zelda's sprite height). As an experienced jolter-pikachu that snipes spare damage like this, I just thought ppl should know.

2) About f-smash... even the non-sweetspotted fsmash can lead to a deadly kill (sourspotted f-smash sends the opponent STRAIGHT UP... dunno if enough ppl knew that). You'll still have some room to protect with NL, but if you are caught off guard, one stock down.

3) GOOD pikachus have nasty Double jump and SH airdodge mindgames (just watch ANY of anther's matches) so be more weary of grabs and FF f-airs or more empty jumps cuz they can bait u-smash and stuff, and punishing even zelda's 'safer' smashes with a DJ> thunder wall is not out of question for a desperate and skilled pikachu ^_^.


Hope this helps with the contributions. Zelda is good... but knowledge must be known. :D

 

[Half-Split Soul]

The OP looks good to me but here're some things to cross my mind when reading it:

As trivia, Dtilt also cancels out this projectile.

Dsmash can also do this.

Nayru's reflects Thunder.

It might be a good idea to mention that this doesn't work against the hitbox around Pika's body when the thunder hits him (although this is already known by practically everyone).

Unless he wavebounces the thunder, he will be struck.

He can also avoid the reflection by using the thunder from a jump with forward momentum. I think this is pretty much common sense but it's still technically not the same as wavebouncing thunder.

Pika is often difficult to hit due to high mobility

I think it should also be mentioned that his small size makes it even harder to hit him.


This is basically just me nitpicking about stuff, don't pay too much attention to it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It might be a good idea to mention that this doesn't work against the hitbox around Pika's body when the thunder hits him (although this is already known by practically everyone).

similarly obvious should be the fact that nayru's does damage, so if you manage to hit pika with it BEFORE thunder hits him, there will be no unreflectable hitbox.

 

[choknater]

what is the best option against thunder jolt?

all my options feel so unsafe...

jump, roll, reflect, sidestep, shield... they all feel like they put me in a bad position..

should i just learn how to powershield all of them? sigh that sounds annoying lol. oh well, i do this to tlink

what should i do guys?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

what is the best option against thunder jolt?

all my options feel so unsafe...

jump, roll, reflect, sidestep, shield... they all feel like they put me in a bad position..

should i just learn how to powershield all of them? sigh that sounds annoying lol. oh well, i do this to tlink

what should i do guys?

reflect of PS rolling does nothing for you.

 

[choknater]

lol i figured thats why im asking what i should do

 

[Half-Split Soul]

If we're talking about the middle range where Pikachu outcamps Zelda only good option is to powershield. It isn't even too hard once you get the hang of it.

When Pika's even slightly off that "perfect range" Zelda's other options (jump, Nayru, Dtilt clash etc) get a little more usable but PS is still generally your best bet.