itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
@ gantrain, you forgot utilt
@ gmo, he has the same everything, except range. his range is laughable compared to DK's
@ gmo, he has the same everything, except range. his range is laughable compared to DK's
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?
- Thread starter itsthebigfoot
- Start date
- Status
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
i think kirby's neutral bs all operate the same way as the opponents, except for having smaller hitboxes due to kirby's size
for example, i believe kirby's 9-wind punch works the same as DK's: more knockback, less power.
likewise, he gains super armor on a fully wound punch
for example, i believe kirby's 9-wind punch works the same as DK's: more knockback, less power.
likewise, he gains super armor on a fully wound punch
Yeah. It's pretty much exactly the same.
Don't be fooled by the range though, there is a big invisible (or visible, I think you can see the air or something) hitbox around him.
Inhale also has superarmor sometimes. Just saying.
Inhaling DK and Starshotting him under the stage is GG for DK on some stages.
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
inhale never has super armor, it has grab armor, the same thing happens when you grab a character and they hit you at the same time as the grab is executed. it happens because kirby's inhale is considered a grab, just like D3's and wario's bite.
it works like super armor, but its technically not the same thing.
it works like super armor, but its technically not the same thing.
TechnoMonster
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 836
Yes, I've played CBK before, and I've played against SK92's DK (which 5-0'd CBK's DK). I referenced him because I've seen him play, and I might get a chance to play him at SFSU this weekend.
Point 2, DK has similar air physics to DK, except DK has less jumps, falls slightly slower, and has no inhale, which bodes significantly worse for DK when getting repeatedly grabbed.
DK's other interesting options include up-Bing, which I'm happy to chase around for a free u-smash or f-air, using the Giant Punch, which can be spot-dodged or I can just flat out grab your face before it comes out, and using side-B silliness. You can also or do an aerial like B-air or N-air, which is possibly your best bet to mess up my timing and spacing, but which I can shieldgrab because both are too weak to be effective. Basically DK has no good air hitbox below him to prevent me from grabbing him forever.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
did you beat CBK? you fail to mention.
also don't even bring up DK dittos they don't show who is the better DK at all. I have not lost a serious set to any other DK mains but I know some of the ones I play are better than me.
as for your real argument, it fails. you are saying that no matter what we do after being throw we will be grabbed again. Wrong! did you take into consideration us doing nothing? I guess not. we would be falling and you would obviously dodge or shield because you are expecting a punch or bair and we would just untuble and buffer a roll.
and don't even say side b is silly. if you chase us with shield your shield will likely be broken. and even if you dodge it has enough start up lag to hit you after the dodge
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
A frustrating matchup for me, I'd say 55-45 Kirby, maybe more. CG is pretty annoying, but thats the least of it. His fsmash is really good, and his recovery is very solid. Dair i think beats spinning kong. And his bair is, dare i say it, better than DKs?!?(since he has multiple jumps). Seriously , the thing has great knockback and priority it seems, and it always hits hard, unlike DKs
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
in a bair battle, DK's wins. you shouldnt let kirby get that close. and if he does, grounded: shieldgrab his bair. aerial: upb
*also, we forgot to add that the aerial upb is technically a kill move, though its very rare that the high knockback hit will land.
*also, we forgot to add that the aerial upb is technically a kill move, though its very rare that the high knockback hit will land.
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
Why would DK and Kirby be back to back in a bair battle?? All i'm saying is Kirby makes a very effective wall of bairs, and his bair hits pretty hard. And i dont think his bair can be sheildgrabbed by DK, especially if he's high enough.
And I'm not sure whos up-b youre talking about,DKs is not a kill move except maybe very offscreen. And why would you ever use up-b in the air except to recover?
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
you never RAR? kirby and DK can make great use of RARing, thats how they'd end up in a bair battle.
DK's aerial upb kills, i've seen it, i've done it. and yes its more likely to kill nearer to the sides of the screen, but thats true of any kill move.
if kirby SH bairs, you can shieldgrab him, DK is tall enough to grab a kirby's SH
also if you're midair, would you rather eat a bair or use your upb to give kirby ~30% if all hits connect? even if he manages to punish you after your landing lag, i doubt he'd be able to use a move to match that amount of damage unless you're at a low percent for one of those **** grab combos
DK's aerial upb kills, i've seen it, i've done it. and yes its more likely to kill nearer to the sides of the screen, but thats true of any kill move.
if kirby SH bairs, you can shieldgrab him, DK is tall enough to grab a kirby's SH
also if you're midair, would you rather eat a bair or use your upb to give kirby ~30% if all hits connect? even if he manages to punish you after your landing lag, i doubt he'd be able to use a move to match that amount of damage unless you're at a low percent for one of those **** grab combos
I have to chime in on this. I disagree completely with bigfoot. This is a 60:40 in Kirby's favor, at the very minimum. If it got pushed to 65:35 or 70:30 (on some maps) I would not be surprised.
Theres a lot to go into the match up, and I can't go into it at the moment, but against an intelligent and aggressive Kirby it is near impossible to space well and play the kind of game that DK needs.
The fact of the matter is this - Kirby has extremely high damage combos, is incredibly difficult to approach (if played correctly) on the ground or in the air, can gimp easily, and can KO DK at comparably low %s. His dair can be canceled out by a utilt, yes, but it takes one legitimate dair from kirby to wreck havoc (a la the fox matchup) and the chances of playing a perfect game against a legitimate kirby are slim at best.
There is a lot of theory floating around, but theory doesn't always translate directly in game and, in practice, DK gets smashed.
My opinion, 60:40 Kirby. At best.
Theres a lot to go into the match up, and I can't go into it at the moment, but against an intelligent and aggressive Kirby it is near impossible to space well and play the kind of game that DK needs.
The fact of the matter is this - Kirby has extremely high damage combos, is incredibly difficult to approach (if played correctly) on the ground or in the air, can gimp easily, and can KO DK at comparably low %s. His dair can be canceled out by a utilt, yes, but it takes one legitimate dair from kirby to wreck havoc (a la the fox matchup) and the chances of playing a perfect game against a legitimate kirby are slim at best.
There is a lot of theory floating around, but theory doesn't always translate directly in game and, in practice, DK gets smashed.
My opinion, 60:40 Kirby. At best.
Luigi player
Smash Master
Why should it be impossible to space against Kirby? DK ist faster in the air and on the ground and also has more range. What you say doesn't make sense >_>
Kirby can KO DK relatively early, but DK can still KO Kirby earlier.
DKs bair should outrange Kirbys aerials and on the ground you also have more range + down B.
Kirby can be annoying, but it still is DKs advantage (imo, at least).
OmniOstrich
Smash Lord
DK is definitely not faster, more range sure, but faster? Not at all.
Look at 0:50, improper DI yes but still it killed, and at 120 it would have killed well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovOmesZrfkw&feature=channel_page
Luigi player
Smash Master
I didn't mean attacks, I mean movement speed.
DKs bair and uair are pretty fast though.
He said that DK can't space well which I don't understand, because DK moves faster than Kirby and also has more range.
OmniOstrich
Smash Lord
Ahh, that makes more sense. Idk what he was getting at either =\
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
if DK is having trouble spacing, its because he's not being played properly, hes got more than enough spacing tools
ftilt, dtilt and upb for when opponents are too close for comfort
utilt for aerial approachers and an angled ftilt for SH RARs
downb for the midrange grounded opponents
bair for the close and mid range aerial enemies
i'm sure i've missed a few, but you get the point
ftilt, dtilt and upb for when opponents are too close for comfort
utilt for aerial approachers and an angled ftilt for SH RARs
downb for the midrange grounded opponents
bair for the close and mid range aerial enemies
i'm sure i've missed a few, but you get the point
ook
Smash Lord
Uptilt does too. Plus I think the uptilt might be easier to land, since it's quicker and covers more area.
(good) G&Ws don't always use the key from directly above you
(good) G&Ws don't always use the key from directly above you
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
if he doesnt do it above you, you can bair him out of the key
make sure you hit Gdubs though, if you hit the key you'll take damage
make sure you hit Gdubs though, if you hit the key you'll take damage
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
Kirby's range is very deceptive, and in the air you only outrange with a bair, while his dair has reach and priority enough to, iirc, maybe go through u-tilt. I agree with Tx3, its a tough matchup that alot of you assume is DKs advantage because he has a weight advantage
Four Leaf
Smash Journeyman
Speaking of kirb's dair......it definitely can spike dk's recovery at quite stupid percents. I watched HAT spike some dk at Critical Hit 4.5. I think the dk was around 70%. That's less than half the time dk should live. The matchup is probably 60-40 for kirby if you consider how "Gay" he can really be
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
fiar also outranges kirby aerially.
the solution to dair gimps is to stay on the stage as long as possible. if you should find yourself off the stage, use the headbutt to stall yourself when kirby chases and try to make good use of the invincibility frames on the aerial spinning kong
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
This is, in my opinion, a very interesting matchup. DK has a weight advantage, as well as more range on many of his moves, yet Kirby can easily combo DK as well as gimp his recovery. (Dair>footstool offstage= -1 stocks for DK).
Kirby's biggest problem in this matchup, IMO, is approaching. To beat this, I usually let the DK player approach me or bait the DK player by spamming FC near the ledge. The reason I bolded that is because if the DK player keeps his distance, I can land it onstage and send a shockwave at him, whereas if the DK gets close enough to shield the shockwave and punish, I can simply hold back and grab the ledge instead.
Against most characters, I find using cutter at the ledge then regrabbing to be effective (most people don't know how to deal with it or don't have the range/priority to do so). Unfortunately, DK is not one of them, and he will punish a badly used FC. When DK is close, FC should not be used, ever.
Anyway, DK needs to spend a lot of time in this matchup avoiding grabs. Granted, I'm not saying they're as deadly as IC grabs, but at low percents, Fthrow combos can be very painful for DK, and at higher percents, Dthrow will send you into the air above us, which is not a good position for DK at all. In the air, only Bair is really effective against Kirby (Yeah, Fair can outrange us as well, but it's a bit too slow to be really viable most of the time.), and if Kirby is below you while you're in the air, you're in for some pain.
Offstage it's even worse, since DK does not have a good vertical recovery, and it can be intercepted by a simple Dair, which will usually kill you if it hits. Sure, you'll probably see it coming, but what can you do about it? If you try to attack or AD you'll usually fall too far to recover, and if you don't you'll get spiked.
HOWEVER, DK does have some advantages. First off, A DK that spaces properly can make even landing a hit horrible for Kirby. Utilt shuts down most, if not all, of Kirby's aerial approaches, and I don't even need to tell you how many moves DK can outrange us on the ground with.
Also, Dsmash hurts Kirby badly. Kirby is pretty light, and very susceptible to star KOs. DK's Dsmash is strong, relatively fast, and causes star KOs. Bad combination for Kirby, especially since even Dsmash outranges a lot of our moves.
On top of that, despite Kirby's good recovery, DK's spikes are strong enough to make recovery near impossible, and since Kirby isn't exactly the fastest in the air, he can become an easy Dair target.
Oh, and don't let Kirby get your power. His punch may not have the range that yours does, but it still has SAs and packs quite a punch.
Basically, Kirby can combo and gimp, as well as **** DK offstage, but onstage DK has a very clear advantage, and can kill Kirby rather easily.
Kirby's biggest problem in this matchup, IMO, is approaching. To beat this, I usually let the DK player approach me or bait the DK player by spamming FC near the ledge. The reason I bolded that is because if the DK player keeps his distance, I can land it onstage and send a shockwave at him, whereas if the DK gets close enough to shield the shockwave and punish, I can simply hold back and grab the ledge instead.
Against most characters, I find using cutter at the ledge then regrabbing to be effective (most people don't know how to deal with it or don't have the range/priority to do so). Unfortunately, DK is not one of them, and he will punish a badly used FC. When DK is close, FC should not be used, ever.
Anyway, DK needs to spend a lot of time in this matchup avoiding grabs. Granted, I'm not saying they're as deadly as IC grabs, but at low percents, Fthrow combos can be very painful for DK, and at higher percents, Dthrow will send you into the air above us, which is not a good position for DK at all. In the air, only Bair is really effective against Kirby (Yeah, Fair can outrange us as well, but it's a bit too slow to be really viable most of the time.), and if Kirby is below you while you're in the air, you're in for some pain.
Offstage it's even worse, since DK does not have a good vertical recovery, and it can be intercepted by a simple Dair, which will usually kill you if it hits. Sure, you'll probably see it coming, but what can you do about it? If you try to attack or AD you'll usually fall too far to recover, and if you don't you'll get spiked.
HOWEVER, DK does have some advantages. First off, A DK that spaces properly can make even landing a hit horrible for Kirby. Utilt shuts down most, if not all, of Kirby's aerial approaches, and I don't even need to tell you how many moves DK can outrange us on the ground with.
Also, Dsmash hurts Kirby badly. Kirby is pretty light, and very susceptible to star KOs. DK's Dsmash is strong, relatively fast, and causes star KOs. Bad combination for Kirby, especially since even Dsmash outranges a lot of our moves.
On top of that, despite Kirby's good recovery, DK's spikes are strong enough to make recovery near impossible, and since Kirby isn't exactly the fastest in the air, he can become an easy Dair target.
Oh, and don't let Kirby get your power. His punch may not have the range that yours does, but it still has SAs and packs quite a punch.
Basically, Kirby can combo and gimp, as well as **** DK offstage, but onstage DK has a very clear advantage, and can kill Kirby rather easily.
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
^^^^^
what he said.
what he said.
Mith_
Smash Champion
In other words don't let kirby get a hold of your powers or its over.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Well, not exactly. That's not the only thing that matters. I mean we aren't going to be spamming the thing... Hell, Kirby's punch has less range than his jab I believe... However, it does help Kirby out considerably.
Still, I'd consider "don't get grabbed" and "don't get knocked offstage" better advice...
Also, you might want to ban JJ vs a Kirby player, as high ceiling + small side barriers + water kirbycides that don't actually kill Kirby + ability to get out of the water from almost anywhere = good Kirby stage.
Still, I'd consider "don't get grabbed" and "don't get knocked offstage" better advice...
Also, you might want to ban JJ vs a Kirby player, as high ceiling + small side barriers + water kirbycides that don't actually kill Kirby + ability to get out of the water from almost anywhere = good Kirby stage.
Mith_
Smash Champion
People say JJ is a good stage for DK too. I don't really like it though.
Spinning Kong from ledge to ledge is fun tho.
Luigi player
Smash Master
Kirbys dair is annoying, but there are ways to avoid it.
*) Recover high enough so he can't hit you with it
*) Side B stall, so he misses you (or to change your facing direction, bair is better than fair)
*) UpB stall; upBs duration is long enough to wait a second in place and then go for the ledge
If the DK just goes straight for the ledge while recovering without any of those things he'll probably get beaten badly by Kirby, but if DK can avoid the dair spike he'll be a really though fight for Kirby.
I still say 60:40 for DK. Maybe only 55:45. But I'm sure it's in DKs advantage.
*) Recover high enough so he can't hit you with it
*) Side B stall, so he misses you (or to change your facing direction, bair is better than fair)
*) UpB stall; upBs duration is long enough to wait a second in place and then go for the ledge
If the DK just goes straight for the ledge while recovering without any of those things he'll probably get beaten badly by Kirby, but if DK can avoid the dair spike he'll be a really though fight for Kirby.
I still say 60:40 for DK. Maybe only 55:45. But I'm sure it's in DKs advantage.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
If you're recovering too high for Kirby to Dair spike you, then odds are that wasn't really a viable option anyway. That also implies we knocked you upwards.
Side B stalling is nice, but Kirby has 5 jumps. I can wait for you to stall then still get you, though changing your direction is problematic and not something I'd thought of.
UpB stall won't work, since for some reason it's only for the first second or so that it beats out Dair (Does it have SA on startup or something?), but Dair will beat it afterwards.
I really have no idea how to rate this. DK probably has an advantage due to his onstage game and weight, which keeps him from going offstage for a while, but it's not really a big advantage, if there is one.
Luigi player
Smash Master
1. If DK is not hit downwards and still has his doublejump, he CAN ALWAYS recovery from above (if he survives the hit) his upB can take him over VERY long distances.
2. Up B has invincibility on frames 4-6. This is hard to time against a dair though. I meant upBs duration time is long enough to stay in place for a second so Kirby treis to dair in front of DK and DK can then recover while the Kirby is too far below to hit DK with his dair.
3. Yeah, I also don't think it's a big advantage. 55:45 is considered even with a slight favour for one character. 60:40 is a normal advantage. Nothing too big though.
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
1. Yeah, end then eat a powerful f-smash or even a DK punch maybe
2. Remember Kirby has alot of jumps? Even if dair misses, he can jump owards you again and hit you with a fair or hammer
3.Up-b stall is just asking for an edgehog or a grab/smash onstage
I still think its even of advantage for Kirby, but it maybe might be 55-45(which is just as good as neutral anyways). You can forget about Kirbys other advantages, like how a Kirbycide almost always spells death, or vulnerable your recovery is to dair or even rock. DKs awesome power is the only thing keeping this neutral, but dont underestimate Kirbys killing power at all
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
1) True, but that's not really a time when Dair is really a viable option. On top of that, doesn't landing onstage after using DK's UpB in the air give a lot of lag? If so, I don't know about other Kirby's, but you'd be seeing my aerial hammer coming your way.
2) I always try to get right above where I think DK will go, then jump and Dair at the same time, so that if I miss I'm still above DK, and if I hit I can start to FF. Plus I believe Dair only hits DK out of UpB if it hits from above (on his body), and gets beat if it hits DK's arms.
3) I agree. Funny thing is I think there is a slight advantage, but I can't really tell for who, since each character is so much better than the other at certain aspects, and gets shut down on others.
What about the fact that DK outranges Kirby everywhere onstage, and his Bair beats Kirby's?
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
this matchup is constantly shifting depending on the situation
fromundaman i think you had it right when you saed its in DK's advantage on stage and off stage its kirby's game
fromundaman i think you had it right when you saed its in DK's advantage on stage and off stage its kirby's game
Mr.T 07
Smash Journeyman
i think that dk has an advantage in this match but not because his punch is only good on G&W if you use DK's punch charged all the way at the rite time it can break through any attack in the game just about
TechnoMonster
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 836
Then you get grabbed out of the air or hit with an attack like dash attack. SideB has enough startup lag to dodge it on reaction, or if its too low I can just grab you before it hits.
I lost to CBK, but this was at BIO and I was playing ROB back then, and SK92's DK is very good so don't be a h8r.
- Status