Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[gantrain05]

well, i beat a good diddy at my last tourney with my DK, and my DK really isn't even that great, i basically played him like i would with peach or fox, powershield nannerz, jump up and catch them, and then i'd glide toss back at diddy and Dtilt him, once diddy is in the air he aint got **** on DK, and if diddy ever has to use his UpB its a free gimp.

 

[CBK]

Good explanation, though I will say that I still believe the lack of kill power on diddy's side is what makes the matchup even. DK can kill so much earlier not even with gimps just straight no gimps fight. But the reason that this fight is hard because it goes to who builds the momentum during the fight.

A DK who doesn't let a diddy get banana's out and limits the combo possibilities will win, but if the Diddy doesn't let DK get a strong hold on the bananas will win.

5:5

 

[The Pope]

I did all the tips that CBK stated while fighting a Diddy and it works wonders. Having a banana in your hands really reduces the combo ability of Diddy. It also gives you another approach option with glide tossing, though I wasn't able to do it in the match I had with a Diddy because it was a wi-fi match. I can't glide toss with DK in wi-fi for ****.

Down B near a banana really ***** up Diddy because Diddy players seem to "need" to get that banana. Mind you, don't do this unless the Diddy has no banana in their hand or else you'll get a banana thrown at you.

Another tip from experience, watch out for Diddy's side B when trying to edgeguard him. I was gimped by that earlier.

 

[ADHD]

Chrome Pirate, you said so much stuff thats contradicting in your post

diddy ***** dk, but its almost an even matchup?
DK's bair autocancels (no it doesnt, i'm pretty sure none of DK's aerials autocancel), but diddy can punish the lag?

also, diddy can camp peanuts?
a) peanuts are a horrible camp projectile, they only go far if they're charged
b) you can catch them with an airdodge
c) you can just hit them with any attack and they'll break, causing 0% damage

the only people who have accurately described the matchup so far are DMG and Cyphus.

6:4 diddy's favor. this matchup is harder than the MK one.

You don't give them enough credit. Diddy camps really well, the peanuts are too fast to swat them out. Its like saying dk in melee can just ftilt all the **** samus flings at him at once. Dk does get *****, he takes so much damage trying to approach diddy, ****. Thats what i meant, dk still makes up for it with the extra 60 damage he can maintain each stock. if you catch a peanut what are you going to do about the others flinging at you? are you going to glidetoss it?

I personally know it's 55-45 in diddys favor. I used to think 60-40 as well until I fought a good dk. It just turned out I realized how ****ing ridiculous it is to kill dk's if they have perfect DI. It really makes a difference. Diddy has to rack up 140 damage before he can KO him with the final hit, and in racking up that damage some of his KO moves will be used. So around 80 percent diddy has to focus on grabbing alot and such to refresh the KO moves. It's seriously annoying. All dk has to do is get in hits if diddy messes up, and that's where he gets his damage from. Diddy can die within 90ish, around 100 with good DI. On any stage other than final destination, its 55-45. Dk has range, and he's massive. It doesn't give the stage so much room to do what you'd like to since he takes up so much space with all of his moves. It makes it easier for him to approach you. It's only 60-40 on FD or possibly halberd. Using down b over bananas only works on retarted diddy players. Smarter ones don't repeatedly dash attack into opponents if there is a banana in front of them.

 

[Drizzt6195]

I personally know it's 55-45 in diddys favor. I used to think 60-40 as well until I fought a good dk. It just turned out I realized how ****ing ridiculous it is to kill dk's if they have perfect DI. It really makes a difference. Diddy has to rack up 140 damage before he can KO him with the final hit, and in racking up that damage some of his KO moves will be used.

160 would be great DI, 180 would be perfect DI

 

[Jmex]

^ I usually survive around the 200's against Diddys.

 

[OmniOstrich]

160 would be great DI, 180 would be perfect DI

^ I usually survive around the 200's against Diddys.

Its not very hard for diddy to gimp DK, peanuts and bananas are pretty good at it, plus he has two spikes.


Since everyone knows to ban FD vs diddy id say its a 50-50 match. This reminds me a lot of snake, once they start zoning its going to take either power shielding or for them to screw up before you can get back into the game.

Playing a diddy that has all the ATs down with his bananas makes a huge difference, his banana's become so much hard to steal, watch some video's of a dribbling diddy, you have to PS both bananas and predict his follow up approach and counter it.

If diddy makes a poor choice and approaches from farther away your best two counter options are going to by up and down special, depending on whether he SH's or goes for a DA/grab/tilt combo. If diddy is smart, he is going to dribble and peanut camp you until you get close enough to cause trouble.

Once you are fairly close he is going to dribble to his back banana glide toss, grab the second, glide toss, and seamlessly combo you. If you PS both of the bananas you can try to counter his follow up. You have to predict what he is going to do, more often than not diddy wants to grab bc that can lead into a longer combo, he will probably shield grab or pivot grab...

im tired of explaining it already lol, but thats the basics of diddy's camp game and what you can expect. Also please note that you should be careful not to glide toss at diddy bc the banana can give him a barrel cancel.

 

[DUB]

I think this is wrapped up. Maybe a few more tips for the DKs on what to do because the majority of posts are what Diddy can do.

If you know what to do, good.

55-45 or no more then 6:4 diddy to me.


*Forgot to add it earlier, DK's got more options out of GT then Diddy. GT --> Grounded Up+B = 25+%?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

i dunno about the upb, diddy doesn't seem to get stuck in it the way certain characters do (spacies, link and the fire emblem chars seem to get it worst) glide toss down b would be cool though

 

[daisho]

what about glide toss to headbutt?

 

[CBK]

See but if we discuss gimps DK can gimp Diddy real hard as well, but I'll tell you that Dk has not the hard time killing diddy as diddy killing DK. Especially Forward B above banana's ****. Just saying it's even just ask QTP N4N3RZ TC1 I believe they will agree with me.

 

[ADHD]

See but if we discuss gimps DK can gimp Diddy real hard as well, but I'll tell you that Dk has not the hard time killing diddy as diddy killing DK. Especially Forward B above banana's ****. Just saying it's even just ask QTP N4N3RZ TC1 I believe they will agree with me.

Lol, dk gimping... diddy? nonsense, you must be hitting stupid diddys out of their up bs.

 

[Ragnar0k]

You guys will not believe how much I had typed up about this matchup when this windows 98 piece of **** I'm on decided to derp out on me. I had been typing for around an hour straight, that sucks so much. I'll be back later to retype it or sum it up.

 

[gantrain05]

i usually glide toss > Dtilt > whatever else if he trips from Dtilt. seems to work well for me. works with peaches turnips, don't see why it wouldn't work even better with an item that trips lol.

oh, and whoever said DK couldn't gimp diddy......a good DK can gimp pretty much anybody, Bair WoP, 3 spikes its really not too tough.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If DK can supposedly gimp Diddy effectively, what is stopping Diddy from tossing a Banana and spiking DK with either a down-air or footstool? It's a very effective and reliable combo. And if you're going to tell me that DK will DI to not be in the position where he'll get owned by that, what is stopping Diddy from DIing and vastly increasing his recovery options? Diddy's Forward-B should be scary as hell for DK to deal with because if he gets dragged down by that, he's not making it back. His Up-B is also very unpredictable if he knows how to control it. DK's Up-B is not unpredictable, and I'm quite certain Diddy's Bananas can hit people out of any recovery move.

Just saying.

 

[gantrain05]

If DK can supposedly gimp Diddy effectively, what is stopping Diddy from tossing a Banana and spiking DK with either a down-air or footstool? It's a very effective and reliable combo. And if you're going to tell me that DK will DI to not be in the position where he'll get owned by that, what is stopping Diddy from DIing and vastly increasing his recovery options? Diddy's Forward-B should be scary as hell for DK to deal with because if he gets dragged down by that, he's not making it back. His Up-B is also very unpredictable if he knows how to control it. DK's Up-B is not unpredictable, and I'm quite certain Diddy's Bananas can hit people out of any recovery move.

Just saying.

well diddys side b isn't a problem if DK is spacing, it won't go thru a properly spaced Bair, and its tru that nannerz can aid in a gimp, but they can also be caught pretty easily, the only time DK won't have time to catch is if he's too low to airdodge or neutral A in time to get back, in that case, he's as good as gimped anyway.

 

[EruptingBurningFinger]

Gantrain plays DK?

 

[gantrain05]

Gantrain plays DK?

yeah, he's one of those chars i like to play, my DK is undefeated in tourney play actually 5/5, he's prolly 4th in line for my chars, peach/oli/fox/DK

 

[EruptingBurningFinger]

Ive never seen your DK yet man. I told BC Id play at Joker's next monthly so I may have to fire up Brawl :'(

 

[ZxChrono]

If DK can supposedly gimp Diddy effectively, what is stopping Diddy from tossing a Banana and spiking DK with either a down-air or footstool? It's a very effective and reliable combo. And if you're going to tell me that DK will DI to not be in the position where he'll get owned by that, what is stopping Diddy from DIing and vastly increasing his recovery options? Diddy's Forward-B should be scary as hell for DK to deal with because if he gets dragged down by that, he's not making it back. His Up-B is also very unpredictable if he knows how to control it. DK's Up-B is not unpredictable, and I'm quite certain Diddy's Bananas can hit people out of any recovery move.

Just saying.

its not like diddy is going to have a banana in his hand every time you get him off stage. seriously your making it seem like his down b puts the nana in his hand instantly, its not always going to happen and even then usually he doesnt have a nana when hes off stage, in the miraculous reason he does have one then you can watch out for it.

@ChromePirate

i dont see how you can call TC1 or even NAN3RZ to have stupid diddy's. diddy's up b is predictable i dont see whats so hard about gimping him once he uses it since he will be in that animation for a while to charge it and if hes near the stage bair him into the stage or just dair him to his doom. i see in each of your posts you put as if your diddy is a god and above everyone elses and yet i have never seen a video with you in it, how odd... your too one sided and DK does not **** diddy but seeing as we would ban FD it does make this matchup a lot easier since it limits his banana placement and if it lands on a platform which most of the neutral stages and CP's have then they are easier to deal with. his side b can grab you down but bair has a big range and diddy will just get kicked in the face for it, side b is also easily seen coming and even if we dont bair we could just air dodge or if we didnt use our second jump, FF jump and uair or AD and jump uair to punish it. i am not saying his side b is not a threat but we do have answers for it so its not something that we can not avoid. without FD i lean more towards 55:45, idk about it being 50/50 since those bananas are annoying and it does give him a slight advantage. just wait for ragnarok to post and i think that should pretty much be it.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ah crap, the troll is back, just when things were getting intelligent too.

A2, you play neither character and have repeatedly shown a lack of knowledge regarding dk, theory craft elsewhere

 

[gantrain05]

Ive never seen your DK yet man. I told BC Id play at Joker's next monthly so I may have to fire up Brawl :'(

yeah i mainly use him as a G&W, ness, and lucas and sometimes metaknight counter.

On topic : i can see gimps really going both ways, its really a battle of momentum, if u let that little monkey get momentum and control the stage with the nannerz he's gonna win that stock, but if you know how to take that advantage away from him, w/out nannerz i feel its slightly in DK's favor, just get the momentum away from diddy and its really not that bad of a match.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Diddy is able to do a rising Up-B and aim it in multiple trajectories. His Up-B also goes really fast and far when charged, and nobody except characters with extremely long recoveries can reach it, and even if they try to reach it, you must have pretty ridiculous timing or something extremely gay if you expect to consistently hit Diddy out of it.

His Side-B also comes out fast, and sure, DK's B-air has good range, but if you space it wrong, you most likely won't have enough time to GTFO of the way of his Side-B.

And I'm with Cyphus on the fact that stage control > power, not to mention how a lot of you guys overestimate DK. Seriously....this matchup can't be close at all when you consider DK being very unsafe on shield and Diddy being extremely good at punishing. Sure the matchup will take like 100 years, but that doesn't mean jack as long as they can repeat the same safe procedure over and over.

 

[ZxChrono]

his up b can be aimed at multiple trajectories but once its released he can only curved it one direction and even then his destination is either to land on the stage or grab the ledge so its very obvious where hes going. seriously its not that fast compared to how people constantly punish phantasm and diddy's up b is not even nearly as fast as it even when its at full charge. his side b comes out sort of fast but he does have a noticable starting animation when he does it. overestimating? man you must have seriously not played any good DK's to know how good he is. yes he is unsafe on shield by some of diddy's attacks but he would rarely shield, only really to PS the nanas, otherwise he should be on the constant move and using his AD or sidetep/roll. once diddy has a decent percent then DK should be throwing diddy away from the stage so he has control of the stage. also note if dk cargo throws diddy under the stage or away from it, its not that easy for diddy to get back and if he does get back he most likely will be vulnerable to a spike or smash from him having to use up b. DK is big and but hes not slow so its not that hard for him to keep up, maybe you should go to a quiznos tournament, its like a 30 minute drive.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, and that attitude there is exactly that of someone who overestimates DK.

And by unsafe on shield, I meant that if DK attacks someone's shield, he is easily punished. All Diddy has to do is shieldcamp with a Banana, wait, and once DK tries to attack, he can glidetoss out of shield and it will punish DK. Very safe, not much DK can do to avoid it. If you try shieldcamping against Diddy, you lose because his Dash Attack cannot be punished out of shield.

The only thing that makes DK "good" is to the extent at which he can punish a mistake. And in high level play where very few mistakes are made, DK doesn't actually have many ways of creating openings. He almost completely relies on people making mistakes because if he approaches, he gets punished out of shield. This is where you guys overrate DK. You guys almost always assume that for whatever dumb reason, someone will get F-smashed eventually, getting them gimped at like 70% or so. Against someone who is camping against DK, he doesn't have any good ways to open up a person into getting F-smashed/DK Punched/etc because they all are very unsafe. As Cyphus says, DK is just a bag of tricks. He doesn't have much in terms of reliability.

DK's MOST safe approach, B-air, has about 20 frames of ending lag in the air (and if you do headbutt mixups, you are vulnerable for over 40 frames). That is way more than enough for anyone to jump out of shield and punish or in other cases Up-smash out of shield.

Also, DK's Up-B is more obvious than Diddy's recovery. It only goes one way. If you don't make it to the ledge before Diddy hits you with a Banana, there is enough hitstun for him to spike you before you can do anything else. And intercepting DK when he's going for the ledge is not hard at all.

 

[ADHD]

It's called DI'ing out of a bair and airdodging... it's not like dedede's wop at all. Believe it or not diddy has a good recovery.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

Wasn't this already agreed as 55-45 DK in the Diddy matchup thread? I remember it a few months ago.

 

[TheNix]

Sounds about right to me. This is the kind of matchup where our sheer ability to survive is a huge factor, but it's still pretty close to even.

 

[Cyphus]

Yeah, and that attitude there is exactly that of someone who overestimates DK.

And by unsafe on shield, I meant that if DK attacks someone's shield, he is easily punished. All Diddy has to do is shieldcamp with a Banana, wait, and once DK tries to attack, he can glidetoss out of shield and it will punish DK. Very safe, not much DK can do to avoid it. If you try shieldcamping against Diddy, you lose because his Dash Attack cannot be punished out of shield.

The only thing that makes DK "good" is to the extent at which he can punish a mistake. And in high level play where very few mistakes are made, DK doesn't actually have many ways of creating openings. He almost completely relies on people making mistakes because if he approaches, he gets punished out of shield. This is where you guys overrate DK. You guys almost always assume that for whatever dumb reason, someone will get F-smashed eventually, getting them gimped at like 70% or so. Against someone who is camping against DK, he doesn't have any good ways to open up a person into getting F-smashed/DK Punched/etc because they all are very unsafe. As Cyphus says, DK is just a bag of tricks. He doesn't have much in terms of reliability.

DK's MOST safe approach, B-air, has about 20 frames of ending lag in the air (and if you do headbutt mixups, you are vulnerable for over 40 frames). That is way more than enough for anyone to jump out of shield and punish or in other cases Up-smash out of shield.

Also, DK's Up-B is more obvious than Diddy's recovery. It only goes one way. If you don't make it to the ledge before Diddy hits you with a Banana, there is enough hitstun for him to spike you before you can do anything else. And intercepting DK when he's going for the ledge is not hard at all.

^Truth.
I'm not the best at explaining things. So thank you for posting this.

Wasn't this already agreed as 55-45 DK in the Diddy matchup thread? I remember it a few months ago.

maybe. regardless, a good number of us feel it needs to be evaulated with more recent knowledge and experience.
No character should die before 100% guys, unless gimped-because they messed up. Diddy can often live to 120. He's hard to land a KO move on. You might find it useful to KO with unusual moves like UpTilt at higher percentages or F.tilts DI'd poorly by the edge.
DK can live til 160+%, but Diddy takes him to that percentage so easily, its no comparison. And if he gets DK that high he can KO him with several options that are effectively fast. F.air off the stage, F.tilt by an edge, UpAir/UpTilt Suprisingly KO at very high percentages, His throws are among the hardest to DI, not even counting F/D.smash from a banana.
while dk is just trying to find openings for damage, diddy is chipping away at DK with virturally unpunishable control.

 

[NinjaLink]

Its Dks favor. Dk is a brickwall to diddy. He makes ones error and he loses a stock. ITs hard for diddy to get his momentum back and the fact he can get gimped easy.........heh..... Diddy basically has to overwork himself more than normal.

 

[ZxChrono]

i dont know about you cyphus but i have killed plently of mid weight and lighter characters at 70-90% with a f smash or u smash. i dont find it hard at all to deal damage to a character that doesnt have a disjointed hitbox and diddy does not have one. he may have a speed advantage on dk but his moves are still not as high of priority as Dk. all he has are his naners that give him an advantage and im sure other Dk's would agree that without the naners Dk can just **** away at diddy. diddy boards called it a 55-45 DK advantage and even DUB himself said it was a 50-50 so why is it that only chrome pirate doesnt agree? maybe because he has never fought a good DK. its all about who controls the stage and what stage its at, so it can go 55-45 either way so why not just call it a even 50-50.

 

[NinjaLink]

i have fought one........dk favor

 

[highandmightyjoe]

The matchup discussion in the Diddy forums is kind of old I think. Theres some outdated info there. I have heard good players call this both ways so I'm inclined to call it about even. Diddy certainly has his advantages against DK, but DK's natural stock advantage and ability to punish a mistake seem to even it up. I would call it about even, maybe 55-45 either way. Very stage dependant too. I would hope that no one would deny that Diddy owns us on FD.

 

[NinjaLink]

what advantages doe diddy have besides speed and bananas? Dks bair beats out diddys so aerials isnt a plus. Diddy gimp DK? not likely. Anything i dont kno of?

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Nope, I was just thinking speed and bananas. I just said "a lot of advantages" to make the Diddy's feel better.

 

[ZxChrono]

lol joe, yea lets make them feel better. yeah but seriously on FD he will **** us since there are no platforms. the thing that made me lol was when someone said that you need super good reflexes to gimp diddy's up b, that thing is not that fast. seriously the nanas and speed is all that helps diddy from getting ***** through the match.

 

[Cyphus]

yea he only has "speed and bananas" on DK. Speed is only the single most important factor in ****ing Brawl. And bananas are only the single best projectile in the game. And its not like DK is a huge, slow target. A defensive diddy with bananas?....DK has no approach. Zero on diddy. The reason DK can beat MK, and what i've learned from playing Lee and other top MKs, is because DK is actually able to play defensive vs MK. But Diddy forces DK to approach.

DK's b.air is nice, except it requires you're back to be turned and its just a tad...Advertised. Not to mention Diddy's options to punish such as shield-GT-banana...or even SH b.air, auto-canceled Sex, to anything he wants.
Face to face, diddy always wins w/ his f.air. It works exceptionally well at edgeguarding DK, much like DK's B.air on diddy.
but i guess we'll just agree to disagree. next character.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

yea he only has "speed and bananas" on DK. Speed is only the single most important factor in ****ing Brawl. And bananas are only the single best projectile in the game. And its not like DK is a huge, slow target. A defensive diddy with bananas?....DK has no approach. Zero on diddy. The reason DK can beat MK, and what i've learned from playing Lee and other top MKs, is because DK is actually able to play defensive vs MK. But Diddy forces DK to approach.

DK's b.air is nice, except it requires you're back to be turned and its just a tad...Advertised. Not to mention Diddy's options to punish such as shield-GT-banana...or even SH b.air, auto-canceled Sex, to anything he wants.
Face to face, diddy always wins w/ his f.air. It works exceptionally well at edgeguarding DK, much like DK's B.air on diddy.
but i guess we'll just agree to disagree. next character.

My post was sarcasm for anyone that didn't get it. Of course speed and bananas are important. Diddy's speed I think contributes more to this match than anything else, even nanners, but that may just be me. I only think its even because it seems somewhat stage dependant. Keeping control of the bananas is much easier for diddy on some stages than others. Of course DK will have trouble with him on FD and Smashville, but Diddy will also have trouble against DK on his good stages too.

I do also agree that DK's lack of a good aerial when facing his opponent is an issue, but that is a problem with DK in general and not so much match specific for the Diddy fight, and I don't think its any bigger of a problem here than it is in his other matches.

 

[crifer]

lack of a good aerial? wtf? bair? is like one of the best aerials in brawl?!
???

 

[ZxChrono]

anyways next character....? has luigi been discussed? i have more of a hard time against luigi than mario.