Matchups Chart & Lists - Updated: 29/Oct

[Dido]

man catian falcon is a gift....

 

[Inferno3044]

jw, are you putting the D3 matchups with the infinite? If yes, then I agree on a 70:30 D3's advantage against Mario. If its without it since its banned in certain places like where I am, then it's 60:40 D3.

Also I love how some of these are so different. MK vs. Bowser, it's apparently a 45:55 disadvantage for Bowser, but a 70:30 advantage for MK. That's a giant difference. Someone's definitely wrong.

 

[Yonder]

Yeah, weird...Olimar vs Luigi it says 65:35 Luigi's favor (correct) Yet on Luigi vs Olimar, it says 50:50 (incorrect)

 

[Browny]

Wario Sonic is 80:20 now?

This is why I love it when people consult MU lists as a basis for arguing the shape of the tier list

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Falco vs Pika is 35:65
Falco vs Kirby is 40:60
Falco vs Sheik is 45:55
Falco vs Sonic is 60:40
Falco vs Bowser is 60:40
Falco vs PT is 60:40
Falco vs Squirtle is 50:50
Falco vs Ivysaur is 70:30
Falco vs Charizard is 60:40
Falco vs Lucas is 55:45
Falco vs Mario is 55:45
Falco vs Ness is 60:40
Falco vs Samus is 70:30
Falco vs Jigglypuff is 55:45

Just filling the blank spots >_>

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wow, are character boards really that stupid? Snake vs Ganon is 100/0 and Snake vs Falcon is pretty close to 100/0 too. Come on guys. 55/45 and 6/4? That has to be a joke. Those character can never beat Snake if he plays it right. It's simply impossible.
Snake beats Ganon by standing in place and using ftilt 1 and waiting for Ganon's reaction.
In fact most of the match-ups between bottom and top tier are horribly innacurate: Snake beats Ike AT LEAST 7/3 and Link is easily 65/35 if not higher in Snake's favour.
Those are just the more obvious things...other than that Wario's match-ups are way too good on that chart and Diddy's are way too bad...

... character boards should listen more to players who are actually good at this game =/

 

[Rajam]

jw, are you putting the D3 matchups with the infinite? If yes, then I agree on a 70:30 D3's advantage against Mario. If its without it since its banned in certain places like where I am, then it's 60:40 D3.

Also I love how some of these are so different. MK vs. Bowser, it's apparently a 45:55 disadvantage for Bowser, but a 70:30 advantage for MK. That's a giant difference. Someone's definitely wrong.

Yep, infinites are taken into account. I'd like to hear oppinions though, shall i put the ratios with or w/o infinites? It's kind of a hard decision, specially when there exist some "equivalent" techs not banned anywhere, like Pikachu pseudo-infinite to Fox, or Sheik ftilt lock on Ganon... Again, i'd like to read oppinions

Yeah, weird...Olimar vs Luigi it says 65:35 Luigi's favor (correct) Yet on Luigi vs Olimar, it says 50:50 (incorrect)

Hhmmm you saw the chart wrong; Olimar vs Luigi is 35:65 Luigi favor according to Olimar's board, but Luigi's board has not established a ratio yet ( there is an empty square Luigi's row, Olimar's column )

Falco vs Pika is 35:65
Falco vs Kirby is 40:60
Falco vs Sheik is 45:55
Falco vs Sonic is 60:40
Falco vs Bowser is 60:40
Falco vs PT is 60:40
Falco vs Squirtle is 50:50
Falco vs Ivysaur is 70:30
Falco vs Charizard is 60:40
Falco vs Lucas is 55:45
Falco vs Mario is 55:45
Falco vs Ness is 60:40
Falco vs Samus is 70:30
Falco vs Jigglypuff is 55:45

Just filling the blank spots >_>

:O You are the one managing the specific matchup threads? I'll put the ratios in the next update, though putting them in an official Falco matchup thread would be appreciated

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wow, are character boards really that stupid? Snake vs Ganon is 100/0 and Snake vs Falcon is pretty close to 100/0 too. Come on guys. 55/45 and 6/4? That has to be a joke. Those character can never beat Snake if he plays it right. It's simply impossible.
Snake beats Ganon by standing in place and using ftilt 1 and waiting for Ganon's reaction.
In fact most of the match-ups between bottom and top tier are horribly innacurate: Snake beats Ike AT LEAST 7/3 and Link is easily 65/35 if not higher in Snake's favour.
Those are just the more obvious things...other than that Wario's match-ups are way too good on that chart and Diddy's are way too bad...

... character boards should listen more to players who are actually good at this game =/

tiers=/=**** match-ups.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

Wow, are character boards really that stupid? Snake vs Ganon is 100/0 and Snake vs Falcon is pretty close to 100/0 too. Come on guys. 55/45 and 6/4? That has to be a joke. Those character can never beat Snake if he plays it right. It's simply impossible.

Why?

Snake beats Ganon by standing in place and using ftilt 1 and waiting for Ganon's reaction.

The concept that one can beat Ganon solely through reaction is false.

In fact most of the match-ups between bottom and top tier are horribly innacurate: Snake beats Ike AT LEAST 7/3 and Link is easily 65/35 if not higher in Snake's favour.
Those are just the more obvious things...other than that Wario's match-ups are way too good on that chart and Diddy's are way too bad...

Why? If you want to flout those that decided the matchup ratio based on discussion and reason, please offer your own in substitution.

... character boards should listen more to players who are actually good at this game =/

They should, and they do.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

:O You are the one managing the specific matchup threads? I'll put the ratios in the next update, though putting them in an official Falco matchup thread would be appreciated

I think teran is actually going to do that.

But he's lazy *shrugs*

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Snake beats Ike AT LEAST 7/3

It's 6/4 according to the good Ikes like Kirk, San, when I last checked. You know, the ones that actually beat Snakes in tournaments. >_> Ike can do stuff to Snake. Any uncooked grenades throw at us = free DACIT if we so choose that option. Snakedashing towards us = great opportunity to land a jab or utilt depending on the distance. Snake stuck on his cypher recovering anywhere remotely close to the stage = free hit for Ike with any aerial that isn't Nair. Ike's tilts have the same KOing power as Snake's (one is 2% later at KOing, the other KOs 1% sooner >_>) Both are killing each other quickly with gimps and flat out KOs. Both can screw each other over with CPs. Ike is fairly easy to nail with the tilts due to only having one attack that outspeeds them, Snake is Jab canceling bait due to his size and weight (lol at Kirk Jab 1 locking a Snake against a wall at Green Greens)

Honestly, if Snake didn't have the insane, broken tilts, I say the match would be 5-5. But he has the tilts, so it's 6:4 Snake's favor.

/simple analyzation of the match-up

 

[Teran]

I think teran is actually going to do that.

But he's lazy *shrugs*

I'm totally gonna get you for that.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'm totally gonna get you for that.

wut

whats wrong with being lazy?

 

[Ugg]

The concept that one can beat Ganon solely through reaction is false.

That's the easiest way to beat him, since Ganon can't approach for ****. All he can do then is spam AC aerials and whatnot.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

That's the easiest way to beat him, since Ganon can't approach for ****. All he can do then is spam AC aerials and whatnot.

Reaction is overrated. Prediction is what fighting games are about.

wut

whats wrong with being lazy?

 

[Tiersie]

Gheb you play snake now?

Also The pika kirbs MU is 55:45 in favour of pika, and the rob kirbs MU is 60:40 for Rob

 

[Ugg]

Reaction is overrated. Prediction is what fighting games are about.

Not really. Prediction is just glorified guessing, I'd rather not rely on that. Reaction is a lot more reliable if you have a good reaction time, which all competitive gamers worth anything do / should.

 

[Inferno3044]

Freaking Snakes thinking they are better than they are. I'm not a Snake hater, but I hate it when top characters in games get so offended when they don't **** bottom characters. Just because top characters are considered the best doesn't mean they destroy everyone. Take my main: Mario. He is considered low tier. Let's see who in S tier and A tier Mario has 55:45 in either person's advantage or even: Snake (if you say 6:4 that's reasonable), Falco, Diddy, Pikachu, Olimar, ROB, and Kirby. That's about half of the top characters that don't **** Mario. Seriously, no characters have more than a 6:4 advantage on Mario except for MK, G&W, and Dedede with the infinite. (Marth is debatable) If a low tier character doesn't get ***** by these top characters, the same should be for other characters.

Yep, infinites are taken into account. I'd like to hear oppinions though, shall i put the ratios with or w/o infinites? It's kind of a hard decision, specially when there exist some "equivalent" techs not banned anywhere, like Pikachu pseudo-infinite to Fox, or Sheik ftilt lock on Ganon... Again, i'd like to read oppinions

It changes the MU's significantly with the infinite. It's 10-30 points for advantage for him. it changes those so significantly. Is it banned in more places than it's legal?

 

[:mad:]

Freaking Snakes thinking they are better than they are. I'm not a Snake hater, but I hate it when top characters in games get so offended when they don't **** bottom characters. Just because top characters are considered the best doesn't mean they destroy everyone. Take my main: Mario. He is considered low tier. Let's see who in S tier and A tier Mario has 55:45 in either person's advantage or even: Snake (if you say 6:4 that's reasonable), Falco, Diddy, Pikachu, Olimar, ROB, and Kirby. That's about half of the top characters that don't **** Mario. Seriously, no characters have more than a 6:4 advantage on Mario except for MK, G&W, and Dedede with the infinite. (Marth is debatable) If a low tier character doesn't get ***** by these top characters, the same should be for other characters.




It changes the MU's significantly with the infinite. It's 10-30 points for advantage for him. it changes those so significantly. Is it banned in more places than it's legal?

Posting to say that all of this isn't true. Near half of everyone in A and above 65:35+ him.

Mario gets destroyed by nearly everyone up there, our data is just extremely wrong.

 

[Penguinpimp]

your matchup thread for DDD is no longer in use, please refer to here.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8112294#post8112294

 

[DMG]

Small Wario Matchup Changes:

Wario vs Sonic: 65:35

Wario vs Lucario: 60:40

Wario vs ROB: 60:40

Wario vs Ganon: 70:30 (or higher, 70:30 seems accurate with Dthrow CG)

Wario vs Captain Falcon: 65:35

Wario vs Squirtle: 60:40

Wario vs Snake: 55:45

Wario vs Wolf: 65:35 (might be 60:40, Wolf not that scary overall)

 

[Monkey Wrench]

your matchup thread for DDD is no longer in use, please refer to here.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8112294#post8112294

When did Falco become 45:55? Just curious.

 

[Gates]

When did Falco become 45:55? Just curious.

It's not. I didn't change it. Somebody went behind my back and edited it instead.

EDIT: OK, it's fixed now. In the future, disregard anything you hear about the Dedede matchup thread that does not come directly from me, k?

 

[zeldspazz]

The Zelda vs Iceclimbers is now officially 60:40 Zelda advantage from the Zelda boards, we are merely discussing stages now.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Wow, are character boards really that stupid? Snake vs Ganon is 100/0 and Snake vs Falcon is pretty close to 100/0 too. Come on guys. 55/45 and 6/4? That has to be a joke. Those character can never beat Snake if he plays it right. It's simply impossible.
Snake beats Ganon by standing in place and using ftilt 1 and waiting for Ganon's reaction.
In fact most of the match-ups between bottom and top tier are horribly innacurate: Snake beats Ike AT LEAST 7/3 and Link is easily 65/35 if not higher in Snake's favour.
Those are just the more obvious things...other than that Wario's match-ups are way too good on that chart and Diddy's are way too bad...

... character boards should listen more to players who are actually good at this game =/

I agree. Snake mains underrate their character way to much, that it's not even funny. As you just said, Ganon and Falcon will NEVER beat a Snake who knows what he's doing.

Ganon has it worse, most of his moves are out-prioritized, and he gets camped to hell. Snake kills him easier, and lives longer.

The concept that one can beat Ganon solely through reaction is false.

Nope, you're wrong, that concept is true. Here's a example, to beat a Ganon with a Snake all you have do is be good with grenades, tilts, grabs and rolls. Snake could pull out a grenade infront of Ganon, and roll away to avoid getting punished. Ganon can not do anything about it. Basically, all you really need to beat Ganon, is decent reaction and a good camp game.

Falcon has it bad as well. Though, beating Falcon with Snake takes a bit more of work. Falcon can actually do something OoS, and actually pose a bit of threat to Snake.

 

[Dekar173]

I agree. Snake mains underrate their character way to much, that it's not even funny. As you just said, Ganon and Falcon will NEVER beat a Snake who knows what he's doing

Ganon may not stand a chance, but a good CF definitely has a shot at beating a good Snake, the only problem is the CF probably won't run into the Snake in bracket because he'll have been knocked out by one of his match-ups that absolutely blows ;P

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Falcon can at least **** Snake's recovery with Up B constantly. >_> And has some speed to avoid attacks/bait. But outside of that not much.

 

[penguin_and_panda]

Extremely useful

 

[smashkng]

Anyway CF/Snake is no way 45-55 Snake favour. It's much more a 90/10 or worse to CF. It's near impossible to get in to Snake, grenades, jab and tilts are too good. CF gets completely *****: completely outpriorised, completely outranged, outspeed in tilts, outpowered, is much , has a great projectile. He just can't approach Snake due his huge defense against Falcon's horrible approach. So it's impossible to say it's only 45/55.
See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1nfRTiXcRU
It's clearly showning how ****** it is. Only misstakes could make CF able to hit Snake.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario vs. Link is 60:40 lucario's favor according to the lucario boards.

 

[SuSa]

Anyway CF/Snake is no way 45-55 Snake favour. It's much more a 90/10 or worse to CF. It's near impossible to get in to Snake, grenades, jab and tilts are too good. CF gets completely *****: completely outpriorised, completely outranged, outspeed in tilts, outpowered, is much , has a great projectile. He just can't approach Snake due his huge defense against Falcon's horrible approach. So it's impossible to say it's only 45/55.
See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1nfRTiXcRU
It's clearly showning how ****** it is. Only misstakes could make CF able to hit Snake.

Both of those players completely suck, I couldn't watch past the first stock.

Why is Falcon approaching with Falcon Kick and Aerial Raptor Boost?

Why is Snake spamming Nikita and Jab? (IIRC Jab shouldn't even be connecting to Jab3 against Falcon)

/case closed

 

[BSP]

approach and Falcon kick shoukd never be in the same sentence lol

 

[Matador]

Posting to say that all of this isn't true. Near half of everyone in A and above 65:35+ him.

Mario gets destroyed by nearly everyone up there, our data is just extremely wrong.

I wouldn't say 65:35, more like 60:40.

Anyone who thinks Mario vs Snake is close is either Boss or wrong; he's harder than G&W to me. Olimar is mainly based on the Nair gimmick that doesn't work in practice as well as on paper, Marth wrecks Mario...

Diddy, Pika, Falco, ROB and Kirby are the only characters don't don't completely **** his **** A and up...and even those aren't necessarily balanced matchups with the exception of ROB.

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi:MK 40:60
Yoshi:Wario 40:60
Yoshi:Toon Link 40:60

That Match up Chart needs to be updated and equated <_<

because for example Yoshi:Wario 60:40 and in the other column there is 50:50
This thread is sooo old I don't believe this isn't fixed yet.

 

[Gates]

because for example Yoshi:Wario 60:40 and in the other column there is 50:50
This thread is sooo old I don't believe this isn't fixed yet.

Oh for ****'s sake, does anyone even read the OP?

 

[Cold Fusion]

Oh for ****'s sake, does anyone even read the OP?

They obviously do not. The instructions on how to read the chart should be bolded so we do not get 50+ more posts saying:

"o ramja fix dat cahrt its sez 30:70 ics vs sanke adn on teh ohter seid it sez 60:40 sanke vs ics"

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon's still a gift... a gift from above.. when his total average is alot less than Falcons?

Spoiler

I r so negative.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

my Lucas thread made it on here... yay, now the Lucas section will be updated and his G&W ratio will shoot up!

 

[Rajam]

pit vs. DK

55-45 pit's advantage this was decided by me and admiral pit so you can fill that in.

oh and Dk vs. DDD is 90-10 possibly even a "lol" match up. (100-0)

Updated those ratios, though i must insist; they should be in the DK's matchup thread in the OP

Falco vs Pika is 35:65
Falco vs Kirby is 40:60
Falco vs Sheik is 45:55
Falco vs Sonic is 60:40
Falco vs Bowser is 60:40
Falco vs PT is 60:40
Falco vs Squirtle is 50:50
Falco vs Ivysaur is 70:30
Falco vs Charizard is 60:40
Falco vs Lucas is 55:45
Falco vs Mario is 55:45
Falco vs Ness is 60:40
Falco vs Samus is 70:30
Falco vs Jigglypuff is 55:45

Just filling the blank spots >_>

updated

Gheb you play snake now?

Also The pika kirbs MU is 55:45 in favour of pika, and the rob kirbs MU is 60:40 for Rob

Kirby vs. Pikachu updated, but where is the R.O.B. ratio?

your matchup thread for DDD is no longer in use, please refer to here.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8112294#post8112294

It's not. I didn't change it. Somebody went behind my back and edited it instead.

EDIT: OK, it's fixed now. In the future, disregard anything you hear about the Dedede matchup thread that does not come directly from me, k?

lol ok, anyways the link from Penguinpimp is the same info from your matchup thread

Small Wario Matchup Changes:

Wario vs Sonic: 65:35

Wario vs Lucario: 60:40

Wario vs ROB: 60:40

Wario vs Ganon: 70:30 (or higher, 70:30 seems accurate with Dthrow CG)

Wario vs Captain Falcon: 65:35

Wario vs Squirtle: 60:40

Wario vs Snake: 55:45

Wario vs Wolf: 65:35 (might be 60:40, Wolf not that scary overall)

:o please update those ratios into your Wario thread or the matchup thread, i'll put them as soon as they are there (and links please)

Lucario vs. Link is 60:40 lucario's favor according to the lucario boards.

updated

Yoshi:MK 40:60
Yoshi:Wario 40:60
Yoshi:Toon Link 40:60

That Match up Chart needs to be updated and equated <_<

because for example Yoshi:Wario 60:40 and in the other column there is 50:50
This thread is sooo old I don't believe this isn't fixed yet.

Though the Yoshi thread i'm using is kind of old, the new one still doesn't have any ratio; as soon as just one appears, i'll link that new matchup thread... oh and please read the "How to Read this chart" instructions (and the instructions further below on how to update ratios)

Ganon's still a gift... a gift from above.. when his total average is alot less than Falcons?

Spoiler

I r so negative.

I made some new "tiers"; like Broken, Epic, N00b, Crap, Uber, etc... I'm open to read new ideas on this issue (new tier names)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OP updated:

12-Sep-2009: Donkey Kong 10 King Dedede, 45 Pit; Falco 30 Ice Climbers, 35 Pikachu, 40 Kirby, 45 Snake, 50 Sheik, Zelda, 55 Fox, Mario, 60 Bowser, Jigglypuff, Lucas, Ness, Pokémon Trainer, Sonic, 65 Samus, 95 Ganondorf; Fox 40 Diddy Kong; Ice Climbers 40 Meta Knight, Wario, 45 Marth, Zelda; Ike 45 Pit; Kirby 45 Pikachu, 50 Diddy Kong, 60 Link; Lucas 40 Meta Knight; Luigi's backup thread erased (and the respective ratios) because it was older than a year; Mario 50 Pit; Peach 45 Mr. Game & Watch, 50 Falco, R.O.B., 55 Mario, Squirtle, Yoshi, 60 Ness; Toon Link 55 Mr. Game & Watch

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Except for not doing individual pokemon, it's fine.

cpt falcon 80/20
link 75/25

and that would conclude the list for falco, even though i think most falcos say sheik is 55/45 in her advantage.