Melee =/= Brawl (Not a hate topic on either game)

[mventre]

Seriously shows what you know. Wavedashing was an exploit of a physics feature they intentionally developed. They WANTED you to slide when you air dodged into the ground. That's why the feature was PUT THERE. That's why when you AD into the ground, you recieve a few frames of lag. What they didnt want (nor expect) was for people to use it to generally homogenize the ground game and exploit it to the degree that it was and currenty is at. L-Canceling is 110% intentional because Z-Canceling was in 64. If anything, L-Canceling is a nerfed version of Z-Canceling. That was 100% intentional and you cannot disprove that because the premises of pressing a button to cancel lag spawned over 2 games, and the concept (all though homogenized) exists in Brawl. If you land during a certain window of a move, the lag of said move is reduced, hence autocanceling.

I didn't say that I was certain that these moves were not purposely put into melee. But you stated absolutely nothing to prove that development wanted something like wavedashing to occur. Just because wavedashing results from intentional physics of the game does not prove that developers knew that this was going to happen.

EDIT: I'm not going to respond to this or insight arguements. I know this is a highly sensitive topic for many people

 

[Kain6th]

Well, this topic seemed like it was going to go well until this post right here:

I lol'd.

Not only was this a clever attempt to disguise the bring items back argument

yeesh guys can't we discuss thing with one another without flaming each other? Are we adults or are we kids here?

 

[Masmasher@]

I don't mean to inspire any hatred between Melee and Brawl, rather to balance respects for either community. So if you are looking for a Melee vs Brawl topic, this isn't it. After reading this topic:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225831

I realized that the poster had somethings right (and I do not see why the topic was locked. It was well written, concise, and was actually the definition of a blog. Just because his opinions won't be praised doesn't mean it was in the wrong place. Whether it stirs up hate or not, it's still a blog) and I realize that Brawl isn't getting further is because of a Melee mentality. We are still, even despite current knowledge, treating Brawl in the same mindset as Melee. We are looking for AT's in the same way as Melee, and bringing Melee practices over. What we really should do is erase everything up until the first time we played Melee, then replace it with Brawl. What we have effectively done now is advanced our minds. Brawl is obviously a different game. We think of items the same way as we did in Melee. I realize that the people working on ISP has tested items, but that was far after Brawl was released. We banned Smash Balls because they were unfair, yet the lower tiers, the ones that need them, get the better ones, and the higher ups get the worse ones. Have you noticed that? That is the epitome of balance. But as soon as we played Brawl, we turned off the items (most of you anyway) why? Because they were unfair in Melee. We tried everything that we could do in Melee, noticed half of it didn't work, and wrote Brawl off as the worse game.

My friends, such is the definition of a close minded community. Why can't we think outside the box? I recently read in a topic "What is a noob?" one of the posts that said "Anyone who thinks Final Smashes should be incorporated into the tier list." First, I think that we should compare the characters position on the tier list to the amount that they have to gain on the tier list. Then compare how hard that character must work to break the Smash Ball open. While we think that Smash Balls are broken, they are the only saving grace for most characters. We now have Brawl+ to balance the game. Apparently, Melee was too perfect to need balancing. Yet Brawl has made an attempt to fix that. Smash Balls. We must remember that Brawl is not Melee. Why do we keep comparing them? Melee is a crazy awesome game, yes, but Brawl is also a crazy awesome game. Most of the players who dislike Brawl are people with brilliant reflexes who found their skills eschewed in the slower pace of Brawl. M2K is one of the exceptions because he has both quick fingers and a quick mind for trickery/mindgames. We should not expect Melee to be Brawl, or vice versa. I mean, how many of you were disappointed when Melee wasn't 64? Like Melee to Brawl, 64 to Melee got a plethora of new tactics, but did still lose some. Characters were made less broken, etc. Melee to Brawl also lost things. But then again, there is a lot of 64 left undiscovered. Remember, Melee came out a meager 2 years after 64. After 7 years of Melee, many don;t give much thought to Brawl.

Brawl is another game. We can't let nostalgia cloud our minds. Melee was and still is awesome. But after 7 years, many aren't ready to make the jump. There is plenty of skill needed for Brawl. There are plenty of options available from Brawl. If we are truly ready to establish ourselves as a fighting game community, we must rise to the occasion, with new minds ready to be filled, and new tactics to learn. We must accept new things. After but a month or two, we banned all items. Actually, we have banned the Smash Balls, because the other items? We thought the same as we did in Melee. But once again, like 64 to Melee, there are some things kept. Thinking in the same Melee mindset will therefore discover a few things, but not much more than that. When will we stop treating Brawl as what we wanted it to be like, instead of what it truly is? Like Melee, and possibly 64 (we wouldn't know, would we), Brawl is a deep game, with much is waiting to be found within it. But the question is, when will we be ready to find it.

This reminds me of lyrics from one of my favorite Linkin Park songs:

When I pretend that everything is what I want it to be
I look exactly like what you always wanted to see

We must go forward and treat Brawl as a separate game and explore ALL of it's options, even normal stock matches, and maybe even coin matches. Let's explore and expand the metagame in Brawl. This time from scratch.



I once posted this in the General Brawl Discussion, but I'm bringing it back here because there was confusion in the original one, and this is in light of the Meta-Knight ban. And the most recent posts.

LMFAO! at this


Let me throw this your way

There is no MELEE mentality people look for extra stuff or advanced strafes IN EVERY FIGHTING GAME. Its smash so there gonna be comparison always. Otherwise this wouldn't be smash.

Think out side the box? what else can you look for the game design is basic. Items, smash balls! Does street fighter play 10 second rounds. I shudder to think that now that theres a slight stagnation in the metagame the community is actually considering playing the game the way sakurai intended to reach some sort of pseudo balance.

Truthfully you guys deserve a better game.

Its not a melee mentality its a fighter game mentality.


IF you played melee you would understand.
which is what i will do right now.

 

[|RK|]

masmasher? Get out. Please, stop trolling everywhere you go. You obviously don't understand what I'm saying and I will not waste my time. If you want to play Melee, go to the Melee area. Not here.

 

[Masmasher@]

masmasher? Get out. Please, stop trolling everywhere you go. You obviously don't understand what I'm saying and I will not waste my time. If you want to play Melee, go to the Melee area. Not here.

Nice job ignoring the rest of my argument and calling me a troll cause i play melee. I can post where i want.

Really what are you saying? I see a wall of text but no substance.

 

[|RK|]

People keep looking at Brawl as they would Melee.

Oh, and you aren't a troll because you play Melee, you are a troll because you just insulted Brawl, then called Melee better. In the Brawl discussion. This will NOT turn into a flame war. You are, knowingly or not, provoking one.

 

[EvolveOrDie]

Umm Sakurai himself has stated numerous times the reasons behind his design choices. He wants people that lose at the game to still be able to enjoy it. He specifically stated he doesn't like it when one person wins every game. He wanted to make sure that even if that happens people can still enjoy it. He put in Final Smashes (and the pity Final Smash you get when you are down several stock) for people that suck to stand a chance. HOW CAN YOU IGNORE THIS?

Its all been researched, played out numerous times, etc, and items are just not popular no matter how strong of an argument you try to make for them. There is ISP and that's as close as you are going to get. Its there, not the standard, so YOU need to stop crying because people don't care much about it.

To put it simply then take of smash balls that problem is solved. I'm not crying about anything I was just ranting some of my feelings, sorry if that wasn't clear. My point is this, the community puts down new ways of playing the game as either uncompetitive or some other unjustified reason. I've read the ISP and it's all pretty solid but it has no support because the community gives the impression that items= scrub. Is that how the community really feels? In my opinion a fair amount of the community feels that way and that is what holds it back. It's more than about items, it's about having an open community one that embraces new things. For example we follow the ISP and turned on items deemed by their testing to be allowable and played in a competitive setting how would the game be hurt.

 

[Espy Rose]

I really don't like Metaknight gimping me at 30 with a dair.

I really don't like Meta Knight.

 

[The MC Clusky]

To put it simply then take of smash balls that problem is solved. I'm not crying about anything I was just ranting some of my feelings, sorry if that wasn't clear. My point is this, the community puts down new ways of playing the game as either uncompetitive or some other unjustified reason. I've read the ISP and it's all pretty solid but it has no support because the community gives the impression that items= scrub. Is that how the community really feels? In my opinion a fair amount of the community feels that way and that is what holds it back. It's more than about items, it's about having an open community one that embraces new things. For example we follow the ISP and turned on items deemed by their testing to be allowable and played in a competitive setting how would the game be hurt.

I thought we were moving on past the items talk.

Yes, vent all you like. However, if you ask me live journal or myspace is a better place to do that.

Also, what that guy a few posts back said? He's right about it not being a Melee mentality, it's a fighting game mentality. Every game people will try to break it from Day 1. This applies to every single fighting game ever made. People will study it to see what they can do in it.

 

[rathy Aro]

They're both ssb games. The best players in the world were also exceptional at melee. The games have the same basics and throwing away 7 years of understanding smash would be retrogressing. Better advice is to move back to the basics, which aren't game specific. Still the advice isn't needed. The brawl community has done a really good job of progressing this game's meta. Its actually pretty amazing.

People have long since given up on making brawl like melee (outside of brawl+), but I think melee is a great lens to view this game through, especially for making the game more entertaining (I only play brawl, but my objective opinion is that melee is a better game competitively and generally), which this game could really use.

I will admit that the instant banning of items was probably a result of melee habits. There was no reason for that, but it can still be undone if the sbr actually discusses the issue. I seriously doubt they ever did.

 

[Paingel]

Well it's kinda hard to say that a community THIS BIG actually feels 100% one way or another on any given subject. In fact, opinions are often divided on this and other issues.

Basically the official rules state that items are banned from competitive play, but that's not really the point of the thread is it? The point of this thread is to get people to break the molds we currently try to fit brawl into.

Things like.... why have an 3-life 8 minute match? Why can't we have a 6 minute Timed match? Why not Coin matches? So on and so forth.

I'm not actually suggesting Coin matches. Don't flame me. But there isn't much harm in actually questioning it, is there?

 

[|RK|]

@KingM: ... .... .........*sigh* No. Melee mentality. You see, Brawl and Melee are vastly different. People keep looking at Brawl like they did Melee. For example, my EXAMPLE with the items, so many people didn't even try out items because they were broken and unfair in Melee. People are looking for ways to do the same stuff in Brawl as they would Melee. Looking for things that will increase the offensive when Brawl is based more off of the defensive. Melee mindset. Quick question, how many people actually read the OP?

 

[AvaricePanda]

No, people keep looking at Brawl as they would ANY COMPETITIVE FIGHTER GAME.

What's specific in Melee that we keep thinking of in Brawl, RK? Please name major specific things that we're trying to do in Brawl with a "Melee" mentality? I'm honestly not understanding what you're getting at when you say we need to think with a fresh, new mentality.

We're thinking with any fighting game mentality. We're trying to get past disadvantageous matchups, exploit as much as we can with our character, further our character's metagames by hiding their weaknesses and showing their strengths, and others.

What new can we do? You said damage ratios, etc., (you only listed one thing). Obviously people are going to bring up items when the page you linked to had that argument and people thought you hinted towards it. I'm not sure why you think altering damage ratios would somehow make Brawl more competitive, and we only aren't doing it because Melee didn't need it.

I could EASILY argue that Brawl doesn't need a ratio change. Why? Exploits, similar to the running CGs and random infinites you see in 1.0, will pop up in any other damage ratio you try, it just takes time to find (don't think that you've found everything exploitable in other ratios when ZSS's infinite on ROB was found just a couple of weeks ago). Plus, Brawl has been played as it is for over a year now, and we can't do a drastic change such as altering the damage ratio now that the metagame has been this far. It's like saying, "Hey, throw out half of what you've learned through the window and regress back a year! Wooo..."

Besides, it's subjective. Why does Brawl need to be altered in this way? You may argue to get kills faster, remove CGs (although I guarantee you that new, "unfair" exploitable things will be found) but why is that necessarily good? I could just as well argue that Melee needed a damage ratio change because I didn't like the way it was played, but for very good reason, nobody would take me seriously.

Altering the damage ratio fixes no drastic or major problems, while just bringing more to the table and basically removing what we've known for the past year about the game.

Edit: The one example with items that you've posted, RK (with us removing them because of the melee mentality), is not only a general fighting game mentality, but a preference as well. Not only do items spawn randomly (which could honestly be my sole argument about why items should be banned even though it isn't, and you even said you didn't feel like bringing up the items debate) but most people don't even want them. A huge majority of competitive Brawl players don't like playing with items.

There's already ISP, which is free for anyone to play. The competitive Brawl players who like items can always play that. But if the large majority of competitive Brawl players DON'T LIKE PLAYING WITH ITEMS, why should they be forced in the ruleset?

And you only provided one example. Please provide more, major examples of how we have a "Melee" mentality for me to consider your argument.

 

[EvolveOrDie]

True people will try to break it from day 1 i agree with you there, I'm only using items because it's the most easily recognized and testable factor(I could be wrong on that) that is excluded from the competitive play commonly. Items are not the point or issue of the argument, are we playing the game to it's full competitive allowances within the confines of the game.

 

[|RK|]

The way we look at ATs, etc. Again, this topic is old. That and you are incorrect in your assumptions about the damage ratio. According to Panda, 1.1 absolutely decimates chaingrabs and Dedede's infinites.

As for Melee mentality, items off was not because of randomness. In Melee, we tried out everything. In Brawl, most people just turned off items, and only tried the main attraction, Smash Balls.

Again, as soon as we picked up Brawl, we started looking at certain things. Not that even our system of stocks and timer is similar to Melee's.

We left the counterpicking system the same, and whine about how MK breaks it.

We constantly compare Melee to Brawl.

Since the change from 64 to Melee wasn't too drastic, and not many played 64 competitively, we immediately adapted to Melee as an increase. Melee to Brawl was far more drastic and we attempted to continue as Melee was when they are completely different games. Melee to Brawl was an adjustment.

While I understand what you mean by fighting game mentality, many still look at this game in a Melee mentality, and that's what this topic is about.

Besides, many have been considering 1.1 as a serious, viable competitive option. Also a more fun one at that.

EDIT: Items =/= My topic. Items = Example

 

[AvaricePanda]

"The way we look at ATs"

Really vague statement. Could you please delve more into this? As far as I'm concerned, we're like any other fighting games in that we're looking for these ATs and utilizing them. I don't see how this specifically applies to Melee.

1.1 kills D3s infinites, true. That's not the only thing I'm talking about. How do you know there aren't new chaingrabs or throw->ridiculous combo or whatever? How do you know there's nothing "cheap" and exploitable that pops up in the 1.1 ratio? Just because Falco and D3 are missing their chaingrabs, doesn't mean that there are no chaingrabs, chainlocks, exploits, or anything of that kind.

You can't act as if you've experimented with every character against every character and you've found every exploitable chain whatever in the game. ZSSs infinite on ROB was only discovered a couple of weeks ago.

As for the counterpicking system, how exactly does MK break it in any way that Fox, Marth, or any other character in Melee does? I don't recall Fox or Marth having any bad stages, only "worse" ones. I don't recall Fox or Marth having any bad matchups. While there may be a possibly better solution for the CP system, the way it is now appears to be the best out of all of them suggested. You can't honestly think that when making a ruleset for Brawl, the people in the SBR were going to completely toss out the CP system and start from scratch.

In both Melee and Brawl, items are off not only because of reasons like randomness, giving arbitrary benefits, etc., but it's just the preferred choice. Most people don't like playing with items. The ones that do play ISP.

Comparing Melee to Brawl is only natural because they're both in the same series and both boast large competitive communities.

I still don't see what you mean by a "Melee" mentality. Nobody is saying that you should be completely close-minded; by all means, look for whatever you can to improve the game. However, I don't see how anything ties into having a "Melee" mentality; basically everything you listed was either vague or just the standard fighting game mentality.

Please elaborate more.

 

[|RK|]

We look for ATs similiar to the ones that are in Melee.

Oh, and that's why I intend to test out 1.1 tomorrow.

I don't claim to understand each and every character, but I'm saying that there are people there who still compare Melee to Brawl. I know there are some exceptions, such as you and myself, however there are too many people who still think in the Melee mentality.

Oh, and the SBR should have restarted from scratch for Brawl. Just like they did for Melee. It might have changed if people experimented with everything from the start, rather than writing off that which had the same options for Melee.

Also, there are many who think that Brawl has reached/is reaching its peak. Not you or I, but many people. And these people are doing it with a Melee mentality. Comparing how long it took for Sheik to be dethroned to how long it's taking MK to be dethroned.

 

[Melomaniacal]

We look for ATs similiar to the ones that are in Melee.

No, we don't. We look for ATs. Sometimes they happen to be similar to one in Melee. Oh well. It's bound to happen in a game of the same series, which has the same core gameplay mechanics.

Oh, and that's why I intend to test out 1.1 tomorrow.

As if other people haven't?

I don't claim to understand each and every character, but I'm saying that there are people there who still compare Melee to Brawl. I know there are some exceptions, such as you and myself, however there are too many people who still think in the Melee mentality.

Of course the comparison is bound to happen. It's a game in the same series, with essentially the same community. It's not a "Melee" mentality. It's a competitive game mentality.

Oh, and the SBR should have restarted from scratch for Brawl. Just like they did for Melee. It might have changed if people experimented with everything from the start, rather than writing off that which had the same options for Melee.

Are you kidding? This is smashboards, not brawlboards. Melee still exists, you know. Even still, the backroom has gone through massive changes, if you haven't noticed.

Also, there are many who think that Brawl has reached/is reaching its peak. Not you or I, but many people. And these people are doing it with a Melee mentality. Comparing how long it took for Sheik to be dethroned to how long it's taking MK to be dethroned.

What the hell are you talking about? People say the metagame is peaking because they are being realistic. How many game-changing ATs do you HONESTLY think will be discovered? I doubt there will be many, if any at all. Give me ONE example of how we're looking for ATs and stuff the "Melee way." And no, the Sheik example is not one. We use that comparison because it was a similar situation, not because we're looking at Brawl like it's Melee.

 

[|RK|]

No, we don't. We look for ATs. Sometimes they happen to be similar to one in Melee. Oh well. It's bound to happen in a game of the same series, which has the same core gameplay mechanics.

But if we're looking for it the same way as Melee?

As if other people haven't?


Of course they have. But since it's being considered a bit more as a viable competitive option, I did say that I'd test it.

Of course the comparison is bound to happen. It's a game in the same series, with essentially the same community. It's not a "Melee" mentality. It's a competitive game mentality.

You honestly do not get it. It is not a competitive game mentality. It is the mentality that was developed for Melee being transferred onto Brawl. I am not talking about a competitive game community.


Are you kidding? This is smashboards, not brawlboards. Melee still exists, you know. Even still, the backroom has gone through massive changes, if you haven't noticed.

I meant for the ruleset.

What the hell are you talking about? People say the metagame is peaking because they are being realistic. How many game-changing ATs do you HONESTLY think will be discovered? I doubt there will be many, if any at all. Give me ONE example of how we're looking for ATs and stuff the "Melee way." And no, the Sheik example is not one. We use that comparison because it was a similar situation, not because we're looking at Brawl like it's Melee.

Is that why we also use Akuma as a control?

You make it seem as if I'm talking about you guys in specific. You guys KNOW that it's true in a majority of the community. People compare the games all the time. Melee =/= Brawl.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

I hate Brawl and items and tripping and changes in damage ratio and final smashes and Meta Knight and Infinites and easy chaingrabs and slowness and camping and Brawl+ and Brawl noobs and lack of combos and lack of hitstun and lack of l canceling and lack of wavedashing and

AKSFJA;LKFJA;K;AKA;JS

it makes me MAD.

 

[|RK|]

Whereas that was probably sarcasm, I know that you all have seen such posts in other places on smashboards...?

 

[Crizthakidd]

BRAWL is not MELEE?!?!?

GENIOUS!!!!

 

[Alus]

I hate Brawl and items and tripping and changes in damage ratio and final smashes and Meta Knight and Infinites and easy chaingrabs and slowness and camping and Brawl+ and Brawl noobs and lack of combos and lack of hitstun and lack of l canceling and lack of wavedashing and

AKSFJA;LKFJA;K;AKA;JS

it makes me MAD.

you know...if brawl just had hitstun... everything else wont matter to me.


...but it doesn't

ah well...

BRAWL is not MELEE?!?!?

GENIOUS!!!!

News report coming in! Melee isn't brawl!!!

*interviews RK*

"Where exactly is the evidence that melee isn't brawl!?" "What lead to this brilliant discovery!?"

(I think im done for the rest of the day... -_-)

 

[Masmasher@]

I was just being realistic though i dont really mean to bash the community. You guys are making it work somewhat. Its like you guys are using a rock to make a tire. Do what you do...

 

[|RK|]

Hey, tell me now... who can stop you in a high speed chase with rock tires? I thought so.

 

[Alus]

Hey, tell me now... who can stop you in a high speed chase with rock tires? I thought so.

(I lied i'm not done playing!)
charizard...with iz ROCK SMASH!!!

 

[Kais3000]

you know...if brawl just had hitstun... everything else wont matter to me.


...but it doesn't

ah well...

Welcome to Brawl+!!!

 

[Vionce]

"Anyone who thinks Final Smashes should be incorporated into the tier list." First, I think that we should compare the characters position on the tier list to the amount that they have to gain on the tier list. Then compare how hard that character must work to break the Smash Ball open. While we think that Smash Balls are broken, they are the only saving grace for most characters.

Yeah smash balls help many of the characters, but if i were in a tournament with smash balls, i'd just pick marth and then stall until i got a smash ball.

 

[|RK|]

Did I say that? Wow, this post is REALLY old. Just disregard that.

 

[rathy Aro]

I hate Brawl and items and tripping and changes in damage ratio and final smashes and Meta Knight and Infinites and easy chaingrabs and slowness and camping and Brawl+ and Brawl noobs and lack of combos and lack of hitstun and lack of l canceling and lack of wavedashing and

AKSFJA;LKFJA;K;AKA;JS

it makes me MAD.

+1

I think we should consider banning air dodging.

 

[JOE!]

the thing i dont get is, why are Custom stages banned?

I mena, couldnt some people make perfectly "legal" stages, post how to make them on the site or something so that tourny directors/whoever can reproduce them?

(in response to a C.Stage point broght up earlier in the thread)

 

[Alus]

the thing i don't get is, why are Custom stages banned?

I mean, couldn't some people make perfectly "legal" stages, post how to make them on the site or something so that tourney directors/whoever can reproduce them?

(in response to a C.Stage point brought up earlier in the thread)

eww...glitches...

well im sure thats part of it...

Anyways every great form of a stage is already put into the game. who needs more?

 

[Dalub]

.....................................................

 

[Talvi]

Don't ever quote a Linkin Park song.

 

[|RK|]

^hater, lol

 

[xDD-Master]

So true...

One Example: MKs Final Smash is garbage. But he gets the Smashball with ease. (Anyway he wouldnt be that overpowered anymore)

If Smashball would be on, Falco, Wario & Sonic would be one of the bests.

Problem with SB would be, that there would be the Campy Ones who only waits for it, then letting the oppenent hit it and get it or if the oppenent want to do the same he waites until the SB needs less hits.
This maybe would be very boring to watch, especially since the whole fights would only have 10 hits or something and would be overoverovercentralizing the Smashball.

Nevertheless I support the idea of trying something new whatever it is ^^

Btw.

I hate Brawl and items and tripping and changes in damage ratio and final smashes and Meta Knight and Infinites and easy chaingrabs and slowness and camping and Brawl+ and Brawl noobs and lack of combos and lack of hitstun and lack of l canceling and lack of wavedashing and

AKSFJA;LKFJA;K;AKA;JS

it makes me MAD.

I so ****ing lol'd xD

 

[POKE40]

Goro... CF mains already knew this...
melee: oh yeah!
brawl: punish. punish. punish. punish. mk. ****!

Many CF brawlers have melee mentality still...which cause CF to drop to the bottom of the pool. sigh...

 

[BBQ°]

Personally I think we should incorporate items and such for a few months before banning MK for a few months.

Too bad this is unrealistic. Competitive smashers have already brainwashed themselves to the point where any amount of change is too much.

 

[AndreVeloso]

I have an advantage to Brawl. I never played Melee.

 

[NC-Echo]

The characters that need the smash balls the most are also characters that are either too slow or would be getting knocked around to much to ever get them. Smash balls would only increase the gap between tiers.