Melee Online: Progress Report

[Dan Salvato]

assembly is a ***** :|

Nah, it's not so bad for Melee. :] Brawl's is a real pain in the ***, though, haha, since it was written in C++ as opposed to Melee, which was written in C. C compiles to ASM much more straightforward than C++.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Website's back up! I wrote a new post about widescreen support.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

So, do you expect the open beta to come out by the end of the year?

I can't wait until I get a chance to destroy other Ganons in dittos. Especially Kage. His green ganon just isn't prepared for the true power of the color purple.

 

[Massive]

So, do you expect the open beta to come out by the end of the year?

Yes. Hopefully much sooner than that.

I can't wait until I get a chance to destroy other Ganons in dittos. Especially Kage. His green ganon just isn't prepared for the true power of the color purple.

Nobody has ever been nor can ever be fully prepared for my Kirby.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I'm going to Kirby ditto you as soon as this is out.

 

[Dan Salvato]

So, do you expect the open beta to come out by the end of the year?

Ideally, we'll have something presentable by FC so we can debut there. I can't promise anything, but I'm negotiating with KishPrime to establish an official appearance.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

That would be awesome. If I didn't have freshman orientation that week, I'd be going to FC. I'll be cheering for you guys, though.

 

[JOS.fm]

thank you, based IE and based Massive

 

[Massive]

That would be awesome. If I didn't have freshman orientation that week, I'd be going to FC. I'll be cheering for you guys, though.

People actually go to freshman orientation?

Wow.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Well, I'm in the honors program at my university, which involves a lot of undergraduate research stuff, which I'm trying to get organized in the video game development department (because I'm a CS major), so I really can't afford to make a bad first impression by skipping stuff like that. No matter how awesome FC may be.

 

[Massive]

Well, I'm in the honors program at my university, which involves a lot of undergraduate research stuff, which I'm trying to get organized in the video game development department (because I'm a CS major), so I really can't afford to make a bad first impression by skipping stuff like that. No matter how awesome FC may be.

good... luck?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Firefly is cool.

 

[Leviathan741]

Well, whenever you guys get this done, we can show the world why melee takes more skill than any game ever.... (except for maybe starcraft )

 

[Moggie]

I just wanna say....I got out of the Melee scene years ago, and I like to check this website every now and again to see what's going on with the game, etc.

You guys rock and have my 100% support, finishing this and it being playable would be a dream come true for me and all other Melee fans in the world. I've been waiting for online Melee since 2004!

So hyped!

 

[linaly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM-6DtN-2Ok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRMdkeroGvc
watch them!

 

[Massive]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM-6DtN-2Ok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRMdkeroGvc
watch them!

Some things that bug me about these videos:

1. We're only seeing one end of the netplay. I guarantee the % values do not match on the other side.
2. Neither video shows the characters connecting to the dolphin netplay chat window or starting the game. They could both be playing on the same computer and we'd have no way of knowing.
3. The characters chosen are ones with no random attacks. Falco's lasers are a "desync-safe" projectile using the TCP buffer gamepad method since they travel horizontally and are difficult to jab. Pikachu did not use his projectile at all.
4. Pokemon stadium didn't change.

My reasoning:

1. The current alpha version of our code has had this remedied for the last 3 or 4 months. We sync stock, percentage value, position/momentum data, and are currently working on perfecting action data sync. In our version, the stock and % data on each side ALWAYS line up.
2. It's quite possible they went a while without a desync, but I can't rule out this possibility, where's the proof?
3. This is pretty obvious. Pikachu's projectile is slow and easy to nullify, but the timing to do so is reasonably tight. It could happen on one game and not the other, and would lead to a desync.
4. Instant desync as soon as stadium changes.

My current work is being done on a UDP implementation of pad state sending, after which I'm back to working on Random sync (which is still being a jerk) and action state sync.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Sometime last year, I actually played a few rounds of Melee netplay before starting this project. Under the right conditions, I managed to *occasionally* finish a round without desync, perhaps 25-30% of the time under the right conditions. Still, it's completely unreliable, and of course the only videos you'll find are of the occasional successful attempts.

 

[Eclectic Echo]

how many people are working on this?

 

[Dan Salvato]

how many people are working on this?

Two, Massive and me.

 

[standardtoaster]

gods among men

 

[Sangoku]

Really great stuff, I can't wait to try that. Maybe it will finally be a solution for lonely players like me who don't improve.

HOWEVER, I still want to warn most people that they shouldn't have their expectations too high. Physical limitations (ie delay) will hinder your play. Not to mention lag (don't know if this will be better than 64 on that aspect, but I hope so). Since everybody has always played at 0 frames delay, 2-3 frames will seem a lot at first. We get used to it easily though, there might just be frustration in the beginning.

I don't want to be negative or anything, as I said it's really great that's happening and stuff, but we don't need people bashing online even more after that ("fake smash, etc"). Playing online is knowing and accepting the disadvantages (obviously compensated by the huge advantages).

Don't know why I felt like writing this, it's mostly common knowledge I guess.

 

[Eclectic Echo]

Two, Massive and me.

Well, good luck you two. Take all the time you need.

 

[smakis]

if this will be anywhere around ssb64 p2p quality you will be going from 0 frames to 1 frame (obviously you will have to play people in your region), in all honesty while at times you might notice it, it's really negliable especially since there are plenty of crt tvs that have miniscule input delay but has still been used in tournaments.

 

[Sangoku]

^Says the one who stopped playing online because of how console>online. Also nobody gets 0-1 frames in p2p. The strict minimum is 2, even for people in the same country/with **** internet.

 

[LLDL]

Even with 2 frame delay, when 64 online is at it's absolute best, I feel no hindrance and I play at a relatively high level (sometimes). 64 is simplistic though, Melee though has a lot of more intricacies to affect gameplay, so I'm interested to see what this level of control will bring to the table.

 

[smakis]

^Says the one who stopped playing online because of how console>online. Also nobody gets 0-1 frames in p2p. The strict minimum is 2, even for people in the same country/with **** internet.

I stopped playing because I moved to Ireland whom just happen to have the ****tiest internet in the world making ssb64 online unbearable and also because I happen to find melee a buttload more fun to play than ssb64 meaning I would be much more willing to bear with the delay if it's melee.

Also I'm talking about what they are doing here and if 1 frame is possible, not about ssb64...


edit: going from 0 frames to 1 as in from console > online..., and unless the client was lying I'm pretty sure it said 1 frames with some swedes I played with.

 

[Cookiemonsta]

Man I wouldn't care if it was HDTV lag if it meant I could play with people from far away lol. But hopefully if the lag is only 1 frame, then... swag

 

[The Star King]

^Says the one who stopped playing online because of how console>online. Also nobody gets 0-1 frames in p2p. The strict minimum is 2, even for people in the same country/with **** internet.

Uh I've gotten 1 frame with people before

 

[Sangoku]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about online, I'm just foreseeing people complaining. Especially in a game that's supposed to be so technical.

Chain-ace / star king: of course in optimal conditions, online can be very close to console. But can you say most games you play are at 1-2 frames, with no lag? If yes, then I might just be the unlucky one.

Smakis: Don't you think a lot of people thinking about playing melee online have a ****ty internet too? By the way, how do you know it will be 0-1 frames? Genuinely asking, because I haven't seen it mentioned. And that's interesting, because when I mention reducing delay in 64, they all say we're already at the physical limit. Looks like it's wrong if we can get 0-1 in melee.

 

[smakis]

Indeed they do but then I have an option to not play with them, seeing as I now live in Sweden again (moved back last friday) I say I have a decent pool of people to play with once/if this actually happens.

Also you can't get 0 frames online, never said you could, physically impossible, star king above you just said he has gotten 1 frame in ssb64 aswell and I have seen 1 frame being mentioned, I don't actually know anything about it..

 

[Leviathan741]

Indeed they do but then I have an option to not play with them, seeing as I now live in Sweden again (moved back last friday) I say I have a decent pool of people to play with once/if this actually happens.

Also you can't get 0 frames online, never said you could, physically impossible, star king above you just said he has gotten 1 frame in ssb64 aswell and I have seen 1 frame being mentioned, I don't actually know anything about it..

I have gotten something around 0 frames before. Maybe not exactly 0 frames, but less than 1

 

[Sangoku]

smakis: oh sorry, I didn't understand what you meant by from 0 to 1, even with your edit in the next post >_>.

Yeah, I guess 1 frame happen from time to time, but not that often and not on a regular basis. Anyway, as long as delay is less or equal than 3, I'm fine with it. I hope the "sister lag" problem will not be as terribly handled as with kaillera (ie one person browsing in your house, framerate drop to an unplayable point).

By the way, are you getting back to 64 online now? Or have you completely quit?

 

[Dan Salvato]

I hope the "sister lag" problem will not be as terribly handled as with kaillera (ie one person browsing in your house, framerate drop to an unplayable point).

I would need more details to figure out exactly why this happens on Kaillera, but our upstream and downstream are so small that I can't see this being a problem, unless it affects packet sending somehow.

 

[Sangoku]

I really don't know **** about kaillera and internet/computer in general. Maybe if you ask in the 64 section, others will be able to give an acceptable answer. I've only been told that kaillera was "badly written", but I don't know. Oh I think someone said it wasn't a bandwidth problem either, because kaillera doesn't use much. Don't know if that means anything lol.

 

[rawrimamonster]

I really don't know **** about kaillera and internet/computer in general. Maybe if you ask in the 64 section, others will be able to give an acceptable answer. I've only been told that kaillera was "badly written", but I don't know. Oh I think someone said it wasn't a bandwidth problem either, because kaillera doesn't use much. Don't know if that means anything lol.

This is from years of experience.

the "higher" your connectivity type goes on kaillera the more unstable the connection between players gets regardless of the quality of your internet. But I believe I was told before that it has to do with how kaillera interconnects clients to the main server. For its age kaillera is "ok", before we all started getting really finicky with our connections and frame delay it was ok. Games back in 04 when I started playing 64 on kaillera we could go a half hour or even more if you were lucky because everyone was on good connection type, when we started to switch to exc it got a little unstable but it was still ok, now on LAN we're lucky to get 18 mins max. Course when I was still playing 64 at my peak most kids ragequit before then so its w/e

Really though, I personally know nothing about kailleras coding myself...but it seems to me that its original server coding needs reoptimizing to simply be a quick way point for player matching rather than a convoluted server system as it is now. Yknow just allow peoples connections to handle all the traffic instead of trying to route everything through the servers limited bandwidth.

tl;dr kaillera is bottlenecked due to its age

 

[Dan Salvato]

That makes sense. We're doing P2P for gameplay, and possibly in the future a lobby/chat system for player finding, but that would be the extent of a centralized server.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Man I wouldn't care if it was HDTV lag if it meant I could play with people from far away lol. But hopefully if the lag is only 1 frame, then... swag

Also known as, the Project M lag

 

[Dan Salvato]

By the way, guys, I'm working on a SSBM music remix project to be used in SSBMO. You can check out the released tracks here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=321914

 

[Cookiemonsta]

By the way, guys, I'm working on a SSBM music remix project to be used in SSBMO. You can check out the released tracks here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=321914

I can definitely see myself grooving to that fountain of corruption lol

 

[KrIsP!]

By the way, guys, I'm working on a SSBM music remix project to be used in SSBMO. You can check out the released tracks here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=321914

I love you.